Under 20's world championship - general discussion thread

[blackcanelion]

First topic message reminder :

I'm posting this even though I know there are Irish, English and Scottish threads. My idea is to give a thread that allows for all the games and teams to be discussed (that's not to downplay the other posts which have value in their own right).

To get the ball rolling here are some thoughts on the NZ team and chances in this tournament.

1. I think the NZRFU are starting to take this tournament more seriously. Not having won it in three years means you ask hard questions. I think it's obvious that we been way behind the eight ball in preparation compared to European teams for a while. It looks like they are taking steps in the right direction.

2. The coaching set up looks good. All three coaches are successful ITM cup coaches and have significant mana (i.e. they are all ex All Blacks).

3. The team has had better preparation than in the past. This team has actually played together in a few matches. In the past they've probably come in under prepared (there are no equivalents of the 6 nations age group competitions).

4. The teams pretty useful. There are players that aren't available (e.g. McKenzie and Lenart-Brown playing for the chiefs and I'm assuming national sevens player Ioane (Akira's younger brother).

5. The loss of players to league has obviously impacted this team, but it may be the union is addressing this with the countries first super 15 under 19 squads being set up in Auckland and Wellington. It's hard to say if it will stem the flow  as the NRL generates more TV revenue than either the Top 14 or Premiership. The clubs currently contract 16 professional under 19 squads) so there is a big pull. The Players who likely would have made it, include Asofa Solomona (could have been the superstar of this tournament).

6. It's difficult to determine the chances of this team based on 1 game. All we can say is that they were significantly better than the Scottish side they faced. I understand the Scottish side was understrength and given that this isn't the strongest NZ side we probably wont get a decent idea until after the game against Ireland.

7. It looks to have a side that play to NZ's normal strengths (e.g. fitness, pace and ball skills). The question remains how they cope if/when a team can control, possession, position and the pace of the game (e.g. England or SA). I'm not entirely convinced we adequate in the tight 5. If someone someone controls the set piece, has a good mauling game and can slow down the ruck we will be vulnerable.

All that aside I feel reasonably happy with our chances.

So. How do you feel about your team's progress so far and their chances looking forward.

[Sgt_Pooly]

I don't think Wales were that bad, they just lacked something in attack.

Some years you get a good group, some you don't.

[Cumbrian]

Yeah, was impressed with the Welsh openside, he was a constant nuisance. The Welsh props were on top for most of the game too.

[The Saint]

Pooly, this is a good group, almost ten times better than last years. They just haven't moved forward so questions need to be asked. Hayward had the blame last year after picking some average players and getting inconsistent performances out of them. This year we have some good players that lack nous and a cutting edge. They're also making basic errors a lot. I'm not taking anything away from England; it was their clinical, professional edge that seen them get maximum points. None of that was there from Wales based on what I just seen.

The back 5 in the forward pack will almost certainly get pro contracts. In the backs Howells probably will, and Morgan (removed from the U20s) already has one. So there's some good news I guess.

[The Great Aukster]

It's ridiculous that they use bonus points in a three game pool, especially when a best loser goes through. It means that the top four comes down to the luck of the draw as the fourth qualifier will always come from the pool with the weakest team in it.

They should have four pools of three instead. The tournament could easily afford to lose a game because it is already asking too much for these guys to play in that heat with a four day turnaround between games.

[Jhamer25]

I've noticed that the welsh backs this year are lacking in fairly simple handling skills. That break when Kieran Hardy broke through and then gave a poor pass to Joshua Adams summed it up for me in the past two weeks.
Line outs have been very poor as well in the past two games. We have a giant pack who are getting on the front foot but are then letting themselves down with their handling skills. The only players who have really impressed me for Wales so far is the 9 not sure of his name and our tighthead Dillon Lewis.

[blackcanelion]

The next series of games looks like a virtual quarterfinal. Unbeaten England v France, South Africa v Australia and New Zealand v Ireland. England, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand are all on 10 points so have an advantage going into the final group game over France and Ireland should they lose (i.e. the highest ranked loser goes through to the semis).

I still think it looks like England, South Africa and NZ qualifying 1st, with Australia the lucky loser. The good news is all the games look interesting and my predictions are in no way a forgone conclusion.

As I noted in my first post. I was worried about NZ's tight 5. They were certainly exposed by Argentina. My biggest worry as a kiwi is the lack of variation in our play. I don't think we earnt the right to go forward and were too predicable. Ireland will certainly be rating their chances, let alone everyone else.

[blackcanelion]

1. I think the NZRFU are starting to take this tournament more seriously. Not having won it in three years means you ask hard questions. I think it's obvious that we been way behind the eight ball in preparation compared to European teams for a while. It looks like they are taking steps in the right direction.

There was always a 6 nations but it didn't stop NZ running away with it year after year. Only since England started winning did we hear about the preparation advantage NH teams have. The 6 nations was months ago and played in wintry conditions etc. I'm not sure how much of an advantage it is. The SH sides have an advantage this year because they've played warm up games in the last few weeks.

The AB's look to have picked a bigger side this year to match the physicality of England and SA.

True. What I'm saying is the game is moving forward and we haven't been. The under 20 side is under prepared compared to many of the sides we play. It's great we won championships early on. But we have to move forward. The current format started in 2008, two other under 20 competitions also started that year that have increasingly impacted on how others prepare for the tournement, the six nations under 20, and how we retain players, the NRL under 20 competition.

I think this is the first year we've really played together before the tournament. This is in big contrast to the European sides who have the under 18 and under 20 six nations. They come in with combinations and several years experience of the national age group set up. In contrast our preparation used to be a game at school boy level against Australia and a warm up game against a development side. We actually played a couple of games in Australia earlier this year. We have to do more as European teams will only get stronger. I see that Italy and Georgia were very competitive at under 18 level this year.

The loss of key players to league is an issue I think. The Kiwis are currently the no 1 ranked side in rugby league and now have a number of union kids in their ranks (e.g. Tuivasa Shek, Matalino, Johnson, Harris and Mannering). The same is true of the junior kiwis (under 20's). The star forward in the junior test this year was Nelson Asofa Solomona. He was the top union age group player. Our club is probably symptomatic of the game as a whole. In the last 6 months I heard parents talk about offers from schools in the UK and Australia for their 12 year olds (we only have 1 under 12 team), whist at least one older brother is off to Keebra High School in Australia to pick up league.

Additionally I'm not sure we are anywhere near as big as some of the other sides. We have a muscularity and athleticism, but probably lack height and bulk in key positions. I think this is just a reflection of the game here. Age group rugby in places like Wellington and Auckland tends to be dominated by Island boys who develop much earlier than their European and Maori counterparts (we are talking about 90kg+, athletic, skillful 12 year olds). The games are hard, fast and physical.

[blackcanelion]

Possibly over hyping the league issue. More as a passionate Lions supporter, we seem to lose at least 3 potentially good players every year to the Melbourne Storm league club at the moment.

[Guest]

The NRL broadcast deal went up didn't it? Most definitely a threat to rugby around these parts and getting bigger. Blackcanelion, you mentioned in the OP that there are junior Super sides for Auckland and Wellington. Do you know what the intention is for these teams and whether all franchises will establish them?

Akira Ioane is phenomenal. He's stood out for the blues this year. And he'll carve up if NZ progresses in the U20s.

[bedfordwelsh]

Looks like the ever often trend of starting comps slowly and poorly not just limited to our Senior squad.

[The Saint]

Looks like the ever often trend of starting comps slowly and poorly not just limited to our Senior squad.

That would be putting a lightly...when you consider all our other results. I'm still angry at this. We've a bunch of pro players in the making, some big forwards too, and they aren't being properly utilised. They look like a bunch of highly conditioned amateurs.

[HammerofThunor]

1. I think the NZRFU are starting to take this tournament more seriously. Not having won it in three years means you ask hard questions. I think it's obvious that we been way behind the eight ball in preparation compared to European teams for a while. It looks like they are taking steps in the right direction.

There was always a 6 nations but it didn't stop NZ running away with it year after year. Only since England started winning did we hear about the preparation advantage NH teams have. The 6 nations was months ago and played in wintry conditions etc. I'm not sure how much of an advantage it is. The SH sides have an advantage this year because they've played warm up games in the last few weeks.

The AB's look to have picked a bigger side this year to match the physicality of England and SA.

True. What I'm saying is the game is moving forward and we haven't been. The under 20 side is under prepared compared to many of the sides we play. It's great we won championships early on. But we have to move forward. The current format started in 2008, two other under 20 competitions also started that year that have increasingly impacted on how others prepare for the tournement, the six nations under 20, and how we retain players, the NRL under 20 competition.

I think this is the first year we've really played together before the tournament. This is in big contrast to the European sides who have the under 18 and under 20 six nations. They come in with combinations and several years experience of the national age group set up. In contrast our preparation used to be a game at school boy level against Australia and a warm up game against a development side. We actually played a couple of games in Australia earlier this year. We have to do more as European teams will only get stronger. I see that Italy and Georgia were very competitive at under 18 level this year.

The loss of key players to league is an issue I think. The Kiwis are currently the no 1 ranked side in rugby league and now have a number of union kids in their ranks (e.g. Tuivasa Shek, Matalino, Johnson, Harris and Mannering). The same is true of the junior kiwis (under 20's). The star forward in the junior test this year was Nelson Asofa Solomona. He was the top union age group player. Our club is probably symptomatic of the game as a whole. In the last 6 months I heard parents talk about offers from schools in the UK and Australia for their 12 year olds (we only have 1 under 12 team), whist at least one older brother is off to Keebra High School in Australia to pick up league.

Additionally I'm not sure we are anywhere near as big as some of the other sides. We have a muscularity and athleticism, but probably lack height and bulk in key positions. I think this is just a reflection of the game here. Age group rugby in places like Wellington and Auckland tends to be dominated by Island boys who develop much earlier than their European and Maori counterparts (we are talking about 90kg+, athletic, skillful 12 year olds). The games are hard, fast and physical.

Not sure about this year, but last year you're forwards were a little smaller than ours (England) and your backs were significantly bigger. Over the whole team your guys were bigger but not by much. Wales and South Africa were biggest.

[asoreleftshoulder]

The next series of games looks like a virtual quarterfinal. Unbeaten England v France, South Africa v Australia and New Zealand v Ireland. England, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand are all on 10 points so have an advantage going into the final group game over France and Ireland should they lose (i.e. the highest ranked loser goes through to the semis).

I still think it looks like England, South Africa and NZ qualifying 1st, with Australia the lucky loser. The good news is all the games look interesting and my predictions are in no way a forgone conclusion.

As I noted in my first post. I was worried about NZ's tight 5. They were certainly exposed by Argentina. My biggest worry as a kiwi is the lack of variation in our play. I don't think we earnt the right to go forward and were too predicable. Ireland will certainly be rating their chances, let alone everyone else.

I think we'll have to play very well and NZ will have to play below par for us to win.We've a pretty decent side from no.6 back but our front 5 aren't at the same standard,we've struggled in the scrum early in games so far and NZ dominated against Arg there so I@m not looking forward to that.
We also will have to play 3 tough games on the trot and the 1st two were in mid afternoon heat,really tough conditions for us and takes an awful lot out of the players.NZ got to play all their matches in the cooler evening and they also had an easy win against a weakened Scottish side in the 1st match.So not only are they better,they should be fresher too.

[The Great Aukster]

Let's not kid ourselves - this tournament isn't competitive. The three nations that have won it will be the three nations to continue to win it. All the rest can hope for is some development experience. There will be the occasional upset but mostly it will go according to script.
Having said that, all that matters is that it is a development experience. Building relationships is really beneficial for the 'smaller' nations as they will be playing with these guys throughout their professional career - while the 'big' nations rotate strangers the little ones remember the session they had in Italy!

[blackcanelion]

The next series of games looks like a virtual quarterfinal. Unbeaten England v France, South Africa v Australia and New Zealand v Ireland. England, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand are all on 10 points so have an advantage going into the final group game over France and Ireland should they lose (i.e. the highest ranked loser goes through to the semis).

I still think it looks like England, South Africa and NZ qualifying 1st, with Australia the lucky loser. The good news is all the games look interesting and my predictions are in no way a forgone conclusion.

As I noted in my first post. I was worried about NZ's tight 5. They were certainly exposed by Argentina. My biggest worry as a kiwi is the lack of variation in our play. I don't think we earnt the right to go forward and were too predicable. Ireland will certainly be rating their chances, let alone everyone else.

I think we'll have to play very well and NZ will have to play below par for us to win.We've a pretty decent side from no.6 back but our front 5 aren't at the same standard,we've struggled in the scrum early in games so far and NZ dominated against Arg there so I@m not looking forward to that.
We also will have to play 3 tough games on the trot and the 1st two were in mid afternoon heat,really tough conditions for us and takes an awful lot out of the players.NZ got to play all their matches in the cooler evening and they also had an easy win against a weakened Scottish side in the 1st match.So not only are they better,they should be fresher too.

I guess we'll see. I think if Ireland can follow Argentina's script it's going to be interesting. It's a pretty disrupted build up for the game with Collins death. This nz has strengths, but it really struggled up front against Argentina.

[Standulstermen]

The next series of games looks like a virtual quarterfinal. Unbeaten England v France, South Africa v Australia and New Zealand v Ireland. England, South Africa, Australia and New Zealand are all on 10 points so have an advantage going into the final group game over France and Ireland should they lose (i.e. the highest ranked loser goes through to the semis).

I still think it looks like England, South Africa and NZ qualifying 1st, with Australia the lucky loser. The good news is all the games look interesting and my predictions are in no way a forgone conclusion.

As I noted in my first post. I was worried about NZ's tight 5. They were certainly exposed by Argentina. My biggest worry as a kiwi is the lack of variation in our play. I don't think we earnt the right to go forward and were too predicable. Ireland will certainly be rating their chances, let alone everyone else.

I think we'll have to play very well and NZ will have to play below par for us to win.We've a pretty decent side from no.6 back but our front 5 aren't at the same standard,we've struggled in the scrum early in games so far and NZ dominated against Arg there so I@m not looking forward to that.
We also will have to play 3 tough games on the trot and the 1st two were in mid afternoon heat,really tough conditions for us and takes an awful lot out of the players.NZ got to play all their matches in the cooler evening and they also had an easy win against a weakened Scottish side in the 1st match.So not only are they better,they should be fresher too.

I'm not sure I would put the two locks in the same bracket as the front row. Also I don't think our backrow has been brilliant despite a good showing from the 7 against Scotland. Dow sadly hasn't impressed me. The locks have been part of a lineout where the hooker has had a meltdown and been behind some poor props. I don't know how good they are. That said its not a vintage ireland crop by the looks of it with the only real stars being Arnold and Ringrose. They are missing Byrne at 10 too

[profitius]

Let's not kid ourselves - this tournament isn't competitive. The three nations that have won it will be the three nations to continue to win it. All the rest can hope for is some development experience. There will be the occasional upset but mostly it will go according to script.
Having said that, all that matters is that it is a development experience. Building relationships is really beneficial for the 'smaller' nations as they will be playing with these guys throughout their professional career - while the 'big' nations rotate strangers the little ones remember the session they had in Italy!

It should be interesting to see how it goes in the next few years. Will there be a new winner on the cup? NZ used to win it for fun but SA and especially England have gotten much stronger. So at least 3 competitive teams is better than 1. Argentina, Italy and Scotland look like they've improved this year although Italy is still weak.

[blackcanelion]

I'm relatively optimistic. I think overall it's getting more competitive. I think Argentina in particular could have made it through to the next round with a bit of luck. Looking forward I see that Scotland have been relegated from the under 18 European championship (the rankings being 1. France, 2. Georgia, 3 England, 4. Italy, 5. Wales, 6. Portugal, 7. Ireland and 8 Scotland). If I read it right Russia go up next year. This has to be good for the game. Success breeds success and generates interest.

[The Saint]

I'd say it's certainly more competitive nowadays. but I still can't see the apple-cart (NZ, Eng and SA) being upset. If France do, then that'll be a surprise as they are usually a little erratic, but they do look better this year. Argentina used to be more competitive but seem to have slipped backwards, but again look better this year. Wales had a spell making the top 4 regularly (finished third and second only) but have since slipped backwards due to poor coaching and god knows what else. It makes a change from the baby blacks beating teams by an average of 40 points which is what actually used to happen. I would say junior rugby is growing but this year it's either England or NZ to win. Next year may be different.

[The Great Aukster]

I think the tournament should be revamped. it is asking a lot of young lads to play in those temperatures with four day turnarounds. Four pools of three teams would be better with the obvious playoff groups coming from first second and third.
I think they should also consider having a parallel u20 sevens competition so that more countries could be meaningfully involved in the event.

[broadlandboy]

Trouble with 3 team league is one team gets longer rest period between games than the others.

[profitius]

England 3 - 17 France
Scotland 9 - 3 Argentina

[GunsGerms]

10-24 to France now at half time.

[The Saint]

Finished 30-18 to France, quite surprised at that result, France must be the real deal this year. Maybe it will be them in the final. Japan look the most likely to go down after continuing their dreadful record in this competition, losing 66-3 to Wales. Can someone post the play-off fixtures after tomorrows matches, ta.

[whocares]

Alain Penaud son (for those remember him from his Brive hey-days) scored 2 tries as well 2015-06-10

[The Saint]

whocares, are your mini's still coached by Pelous?

[whocares]

whocares, are your mini's still coached by Pelous?

Yes. Think he's off to be Toulouse DOR/Manager next season.

[The Great Aukster]

Pretty good result for Ireland, keeping the score respectable. I was disappointed with the baby blacks backs who looked very ordinary, but their forwards looked like seasoned pros - Hamish Dalzell looks as though he could be at the end of his career rather than starting it!

I was also disappointed with Moli the captain for his late (no arms) shoulder charge on Arnold - there was no need for that with the game already well won.

[lostinwales]

So the top 4 will come from NZ, France, SA or England. England lucky to scrape through after losing vs France.

[spaynter]

Watched the second half. England were awful. Error count was massive.

I suppose the U20s can't contain future world beaters every year (and we've had a lot of good 10s recently), but the fly half for England was bad. 16 points down with 30 to go and he was just hoofing it aimlessly down field.

[LondonTiger]

England lucky to scrape through into the semis. Lets just hope the error count is not so high against SA. How many interceptions did we gift?

[The Saint]

Pretty good result for Ireland, keeping the score respectable.

I wouldn't call it respectable, and unless you're in the top 4 it isn't a good result. Do you know who you're facing in the 5-8 play-offs?

[lostinwales]

1-4 NZ France and SA Eng
5-8 Australia vs Scotland and Ireland vs Wales
9-12 Argentina Italy and Samoa vs Japan

[The Great Aukster]

Pretty good result for Ireland, keeping the score respectable.

I wouldn't call it respectable, and unless you're in the top 4 it isn't a good result. Do you know who you're facing in the 5-8 play-offs?

It's called being realistic. I expect the Wales game to be closer.

[Guest]

Didn't think the junior all blacks were convincing at all

[The Saint]

Pretty good result for Ireland, keeping the score respectable.

I wouldn't call it respectable, and unless you're in the top 4 it isn't a good result. Do you know who you're facing in the 5-8 play-offs?

It's called being realistic. I expect the Wales game to be closer.

Being realistic how? It looks as if you lost quite convincingly so if it was me I wouldn't call it a good result. Before you reply, I should remind you Wales are one of only three teams to beat the Baby Blacks.

Ah we're playing you guys again. If we don't step up a few levels you'll whoop us. We're absolute garbage. A lot will depend on the officials too, as we have a big pack and can get a lot of penalties come scrum time, should the ref do his job properly... In return you can target us in the maul and have your backs run through our average backline.

[The Great Aukster]

Pretty good result for Ireland, keeping the score respectable.

I wouldn't call it respectable, and unless you're in the top 4 it isn't a good result. Do you know who you're facing in the 5-8 play-offs?

It's called being realistic. I expect the Wales game to be closer.

Being realistic how? It looks as if you lost quite convincingly so if it was me I wouldn't call it a good result. Before you reply, I should remind you Wales are one of only three teams to beat the Baby Blacks.

Ah we're playing you guys again. If we don't step up a few levels you'll whoop us. We're absolute garbage. A lot will depend on the officials too, as we have a big pack and can get a lot of penalties come scrum time, should the ref do his job properly... In return you can target us in the maul and have your backs run through our average backline.

It is being realistic because Ireland have never beaten New Zealand at either this or senior level. It is being realistic given the tonking the baby blacks handed out to Scotland who beat Ireland in the 6N and should probably have beaten them last Saturday. It is being realistic given the game circumstances where but for repeatedly poor handling by the Blacks' backs they would have won by twice as much.

Wales beat Ireland in the 6N U20 this year, and Ireland will probably be missing six or seven first choice players including their half backs, so Wales are unquestionably the favourites.

[The Saint]

That's comforting to know, but I won't be convinced unless I see us actually do it.

[blackcanelion]

So here we are semi's time. The lineup is

1 to 4

South Africa v England
New Zealand v France

5 to 8

Ireland v Wales
Australia v Scotland

9-12

Argentina v Italy
Samoa v Japan

[blackcanelion]

My own feelings towards the Baby Blacks. Wishing them well but just look a bit unbalanced in my opinion.

A lot of solid units in the backline, but I think we lack a tactical kicker in the back three. There have been a few dodgy moments under the high ball and a lack of variation on attack. I thin k it's a shame McKenzie wasn't released as I think he would have added another dimension.

The forward pack seem solid at set piece. We actually look to have a good scrum for a change. I think we've struggled a bit at the breakdown, Kirpick's injury will exacerbate this. We've also been caught short on numbers a few times. Big issue is the defence of the maul. That's pretty much where we've conceded the majority of our points.

Any progress from here on is a bonus for me. I expect the boys to beat France, but we have struggled early on. If they pile on a few points it could be a long night.

[The Saint]

Harsh lesson dished out to France by the Baby Blacks... But ask anyone that's beat them at this level, it takes a good few years of trying and some thrashings along the way!

[Cumbrian]

Wish England would quit it with the rubbish up and unders, they aren't getting them anywhere.

The number of high tackles is getting ridiculous from the S.A.

Second yellow card already, could see a red at some point if this continues.

[thomh]

Looks lie the ref has taken today's guidance on high tackles from World Rugby to heart though. Two yellows for SA already.

[Cumbrian]

To be fair, I've counted five high tackles so far... It's not like he didn't warn them.

[Cumbrian]

Great control at base of the scrum from Chisholm, even with a man down that will have hurt the Baby Boks' pride.

[thomh]

Oh I wasn't disagreeing with the ref, just nice to see it done properly.

Quins know what they're doing producing No.8s definitely.

[Cumbrian]

Jennings is kicking far too much in threatening positions again.

[Cumbrian]

Dragged the maul down in the red zone and offside on their own line, they really should have lost another man to the bin.

[whocares]

Harsh lesson dished out to France by the Baby Blacks... But ask anyone that's beat them at this level, it takes a good few years of trying and some thrashings along the way!

Appart from the tight 5 it was truly men against boys tonight. The difference in handling skills and power is huge. That kiwi number 8 looked impressive and their flyhalf very good as well.

[Cumbrian]

That will hurt, 4kg a man heavier and they are going back like they are on rollerskates. England are dominating this so far.

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