French rugby

First topic message reminder :

Hello, this is my first post so please be kind...

I'm curious about French rugby, but am hardly an expert on it.

I've been reading a lot lately regarding Toulons, Pau's, Montpellier's signings and ambitions etc, and have been watching quite a lot of French and European rugby and the thing that strikes me most is why does the FFR not impose restrictions on non French nationals playing?

If they do how do they try to impose these restrictions?

Who is the power in French rugby?

Where are all these south sea island players in every french club coming from?

Thanks for your feedback

So whats the deal with the Prem salary cap - Is that the same as the Irish and French model?
Is it just for direct payments to a player for playing and then supplemented elsewhere or are there more restrictions?

The Provinces don't have a salary cap. We do have an NIQ quota of 4 NIQ's which effectively restricts our spending.

I wonder are the French rugby team going to run into similar problems to the England soccer team.
Like the French rugby clubs, English Premier League clubs have a great academy system in place and are developing lots of talented players, however when they reach their late teens/early twenties they are either loaned out or leave to lower level clubs as the first team can't or won't take the chance on them but would rather buy a "fully formed" player either from another English club or increasingly overseas.
For example if you are an under 20's midfielder for Man City or Chelsea are you likely to get to play, when the club can bring in proven top talent from Europe or South America who will constantly jump in front of you in the pecking order ?

The problem for England as an international side in this being that the players they need are being sidelined by the imports and not getting enough top level experience - for example in the Champions League?

Irish Londoner wrote:I wonder are the French rugby team going to run into similar problems to the England soccer team.
Like the French rugby clubs, English Premier League clubs have a great academy system in place and are developing lots of talented players, however when they reach their late teens/early twenties they are either loaned out or leave to lower level clubs as the first team can't or won't take the chance on them but would rather buy a "fully formed" player either from another English club or increasingly overseas.
For example if you are an under 20's midfielder for Man City or Chelsea are you likely to get to play, when the club can bring in proven top talent from Europe or South America who will constantly jump in front of you in the pecking order ?

The problem for England as an international side in this being that the players they need are being sidelined by the imports and not getting enough top level experience - for example in the Champions League?

I don't know the exact figures but the top four teams in the AP this year don't have a high percentage of non English (or home grown if you prefer) players do they

They don't. Things ebb and flow but the problems really seem to happen when single positions seem to be dominated by non EQ players, like FH was a few years back

propdavid_london wrote:So whats the deal with the Prem salary cap - Is that the same as the Irish and French model?  
Is it just for direct payments to a player for playing and then supplemented elsewhere or are there more restrictions?

All payments relating to club activities count against the PRL Salary Cap. So salary, sponsored car, work for sponsors, image rights for Club related activity. Thus an English club could not fund wages in the way French clubs do (so buying a farm, restaurant etc would count towards the cap )

Any money generated not from Club related activities does not count. So payments from England sponsors, self sourced promotional work etc.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Ah... well my point was, I think, that having a 10 million Euro cap you might as well not have one at all because as has already been pointed out, the cap only relates to direct payments between club and player. The cap is rigorously enforced in France (2M Euro fine I think) - its a pity they can't be so rigorous in this country....

But anyway, I never said it wasn't fair - they're the rules we have.

There is enough misconception and false rage pointed towards the likes of Toulon as it is. Imagine if they abolished their salary cap too. I know what you mean, they are only allowed to spend a certain percentage of their budget. But Good on them for getting their budgets so high in the 1st place. They are schooling the rest of European rugby on how to run pro teams.

I also think that there is a lot of faux anger directed at them, when in reality, those people are probably just jealous if they were honest with themselves.

France are doing quite well in the u20 world cup. Which kind of pours water on the whole "This isn't good for the future of French test rugby" thing.

It really,really does nothing of the sort.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

Ah... well my point was, I think, that having a 10 million Euro cap you might as well not have one at all because as has already been pointed out, the cap only relates to direct payments between club and player. The cap is rigorously enforced in France (2M Euro fine I think) - its a pity they can't be so rigorous in this country....

But anyway, I never said it wasn't fair - they're the rules we have.

There is enough misconception and false rage pointed towards the likes of Toulon as it is. Imagine if they abolished their salary cap too. I know what you mean, they are only allowed to spend a certain percentage of their budget. But Good on them for getting their budgets so high in the 1st place. They are schooling the rest of European rugby on how to run pro teams.

I also think that there is a lot of faux anger directed at them, when in reality, those people are probably just jealous if they were honest with themselves.

France are doing quite well in the u20 world cup. Which kind of pours water on the whole "This isn't good for the future of French test rugby" thing.

It really,really does nothing of the sort.

ok

Munchkin wrote:We do have an NIQ quota of 4 NIQ's which effectively restricts our spending.

Why does this restrict your spending?

Because you can only spend so much on a team that is restricted to 4 NIQ's.

Munchkin wrote:Because you can only spend so much on a team that is restricted to 4 NIQ's.

I don't follow. You still have all the resources available to you and no constraints, to go and buy the best homegrown and best Irish qualified players you can find.

It’s extremely disingenous to say that the Irish have spend restrictions. Take the welsh teams as an example – they have bled their best players overseas now for 6 or 7 seasons. It has decimated their squads and put welsh domestic rugby back years. This doesn’t happen in Ireland because of the extra cash available to spend on the rest of the homegrown squad. As a result, the entire setup is stronger from the first XV, to the bench, to the youngsters.

Yes this is because of internal strife, and yes the Irish model works well in Ireland. But "spend restrictions" is wide of the mark.

It isn't as if Ireland are blessed with a bountiful pool of world class players, and players who would be willing to move from one Province to another. Ulster, for example, need a top backrow player, and there's no IQ player available that would fill that need. We do look for IQ players because we haven't the luxury of simply choosing to buy in a top NIQ. And due to a lack of top IQ players we are sometimes forced to look for IQ players living abroad. Those not native to Ireland.

So you see; we haven't the luxury of spending big on NIQ players even when we need, and we haven't the luxury of spending big money on top IQ players, because the top IQ players are few and simply aren't available.

Chunky Norwich wrote:It’s extremely disingenous to say that the Irish have spend restrictions. Take the welsh teams as an example – they have bled their best players overseas now for 6 or 7 seasons. It has decimated their squads and put welsh domestic rugby back years.  This doesn’t happen in Ireland because of the extra cash available to spend on the rest of the homegrown squad. As a result, the entire setup is stronger from the first XV, to the bench, to the youngsters.

Yes this is because of internal strife, and yes the Irish model works well in Ireland. But "spend restrictions" is wide of the mark.

It's hardly disingenuous, Chunky. The Provinces will try and hold unto their best players, but that largely depends on whether the IRFU are willing to offer them contracts. The problems the Regions have had with retaining players isn't something that should be mirrored in Ireland. We haven't had the same domestic issues. We are Union owned. We are taken better care of. Hopefully that has now changed for the better for the Regions, but because the Regions haven't been able to hang unto their best, it doesn't mean the Provinces shouldn't.

Can we agree that there are no artificial restrictions on spending, but a reduced supply to spend the money on?

Well I can. That's exactly what I have been saying

I dislike the way the Toulon apologetics use effectiveness as justification of how they have got there. It is very similar to defending 'diving' because it does fool the ref.

Toulon are rightly in the firing line for 2 reasons

1/ The football method of buying talent from everywhere and buying success, this was always in question before the Toulon experiment, and most people thought team ethos, harmony, and inter team relationships would win out against team of paid for mercenaries, this proved succesful and has now opened the door to a lot more teams buying success as opposed to nurturing it.

2/ The way Boudj has worked his way around every restriction put in front of him, using a team of lawyers at every hurdle to bully his way through.

Any person who upholds the values of rugby union have to apply these same values to off field matters, there is no place for disrespecting everyone involved, taking advantage of the little guy, or bully boy tactics. They are basically the reasons I feel Toulon have hurt the game worldwide!

You can dislike their methods but you re clearly wrong if you think Toulon dont have great team spirit etc.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You can dislike their methods but you re clearly wrong if you think Toulon dont have great team spirit etc.

Who said they havn't got team spirit?

Read that way in your 1st point.

Fanster wrote:
1/ The football method of buying talent from everywhere and buying success, this was always in question before the Toulon experiment, and most people thought team ethos, harmony, and inter team relationships would win out against  team of paid for mercenaries, this proved succesful and has now opened the door to a lot more teams buying success as opposed to nurturing it.

It is exactly these traits (in bold) that Toulon have developed and led to them being far more than a bunch of mercenaries.

I am not a "Toulon apologist" or whatever else the insult was you threw out at those who disagree with you, but I do have to say that my best ever experience as a spectator was our 1/4 final defeat in Toulon. Best crowd ever.

Fanster wrote:I dislike the way the Toulon apologetics use effectiveness as justification of how they have got there. It is very similar to defending 'diving' because it does fool the ref.

Toulon are rightly in the firing line for 2 reasons

1/ The football method of buying talent from everywhere and buying success, this was always in question before the Toulon experiment, and most people thought team ethos, harmony, and inter team relationships would win out against  team of paid for mercenaries, this proved succesful and has now opened the door to a lot more teams buying success as opposed to nurturing it.

2/ The way Boudj has worked his way around every restriction put in front of him, using a team of lawyers at every hurdle to bully his way through.

Any person who upholds the values of rugby union have to apply these same values to off field matters, there is no place for disrespecting everyone involved, taking advantage of the little guy, or bully boy tactics. They are basically the reasons I feel Toulon have hurt the game worldwide!

I think I'm missing something here..........why should a team that turns over 30m a year and makes a profit not be allowed to employ the best workforce it can muster?

Fanster wrote:I dislike the way the Toulon apologetics use effectiveness as justification of how they have got there. It is very similar to defending 'diving' because it does fool the ref.

Toulon are rightly in the firing line for 2 reasons

1/ The football method of buying talent from everywhere and buying success, this was always in question before the Toulon experiment, and most people thought team ethos, harmony, and inter team relationships would win out against  team of paid for mercenaries, this proved succesful and has now opened the door to a lot more teams buying success as opposed to nurturing it.

2/ The way Boudj has worked his way around every restriction put in front of him, using a team of lawyers at every hurdle to bully his way through.

Any person who upholds the values of rugby union have to apply these same values to off field matters, there is no place for disrespecting everyone involved, taking advantage of the little guy, or bully boy tactics. They are basically the reasons I feel Toulon have hurt the game worldwide!

And there was me thinking your original article was asking about French rugby, and who was who, and what was what....

Seems you already knew.

Fanster wrote:Hello, this is my first post so please be kind...

I'm curious about French rugby, but am hardly an expert on it.

I've been reading a lot lately regarding Toulons, Pau's, Montpellier's signings and ambitions etc, and have been watching quite a lot of French and European rugby and the thing that strikes me most is why does the FFR not impose restrictions on non French nationals playing?

If they do how do they try to impose these restrictions?

Who is the power in French rugby?

Where are all these south sea island players in every french club coming from?

Thanks for your feedback

For anyone wanting to question my motives...

Tiger - there was absolutely no offence to you personally meant by the 'Toulon pologists' remark, it was meat to target those who defend Toulon at all costs despite the actions of their owner being very anti rugby. Bending the rules to a point where you actually flaunt breaking them, knowing noone can stop you, bullying officials, threatening players etc.. are these the sensibilities we uphold in rugby union, or have we really descended into an 'if you can, do' mindset like football?

There is absolutely no point discussing players actions on the pitch as rugby or non rugby esque, when it comes to diving, simulation, official harrassment and cheating, or crowd behaviour as rugby esque or non rugby esque with regards to booing or fighting when you don't hold the people in power and in charge of the game to the same standard!

World rugby wants to promote the game to become one of the biggest in the world, Boudj wants to actively kill off international rugby for his own pocket.

My questions still remain regarding Frech rugby, but the headlines all trail to the same club, and poeples actions, which I don't see as beneficial to the sport whatsoever.

I am still researching the nuiances of the FFR and LNR, the relationships etc...

I don't think Mourad thinks what he is doing is anti rugby. Quite the opposite. I don't think he would have put the support in that he did unless he loved the game and Toulon in particular.

I appreciate how someone throwing money at the situation is unbalancing, and can be dangerous if the money suddenly disappears. But if Toulon is self supporting we are left with fewer complaints, just a fair amount of jealousy. There are obviously issues with how Toulon has worked in the past as far as developing French talent, but that is as much to do with the FFR and how they organise the game in France

lost

My issue with Toulon over the last few weeks/months isn't with the money directly, there are plenty of clubs spending hugely, and trying to win by doing so, it is more the way it has been conducted, the methods used and the direct attack on anything not pro Toulon.

For example if the Toulon team was sustainable, as is being reported, then why does Boudj feel the need to taunth the FFR with hsi remarks that his squad are being payed by other stakeholders to ensure he works within the wage limit? (someone posted a link I think but havn't been able to find it).

Also why does he threaten everyone with a team of lawyers at every opportunity? He finds any loophole possible to justify his rulebreaking.

Now again Toulon fans (I'll use this word this time) say he's doing nothing wrong, which is correct, but players who talk back to the officials and don't get penalised are technically doing nothing wrong either, crowds booing are doing nothing wrong, and play acting that works is doing nothing wrong, why do we not have the gall to hold everyone involved in rugby to the same standard?

Should this be directed at Toulon and their owner rather than French rugby then?

Fanster wrote:lost

My issue with Toulon over the last few weeks/months isn't with the money directly, there are plenty of clubs spending hugely, and trying to win by doing so, it is more the way it has been conducted, the methods used and the direct attack on anything not pro Toulon.

For example if the Toulon team was sustainable, as is being reported, then why does Boudj feel the need to taunth the FFR with hsi remarks that his squad are being payed by other stakeholders to ensure he works within the wage limit? (someone posted a link I think but havn't been able to find it).

Also why does he threaten everyone with a team of lawyers at every opportunity? He finds any loophole possible to justify his rulebreaking.

Now again Toulon fans (I'll use this word this time) say he's doing nothing wrong, which is correct, but players who talk back to the officials and don't get penalised are technically doing nothing wrong either, crowds booing are doing nothing wrong, and play acting that works is doing nothing wrong, why do we not have the gall to hold everyone involved in rugby to the same standard?

That is how business works though, and he is a business man.

& as much as some are unwilling to admit it pro rugby is a business & some of the amateur spirit will be lost.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Fanster wrote:I dislike the way the Toulon apologetics use effectiveness as justification of how they have got there. It is very similar to defending 'diving' because it does fool the ref.

Toulon are rightly in the firing line for 2 reasons

1/ The football method of buying talent from everywhere and buying success, this was always in question before the Toulon experiment, and most people thought team ethos, harmony, and inter team relationships would win out against  team of paid for mercenaries, this proved succesful and has now opened the door to a lot more teams buying success as opposed to nurturing it.

2/ The way Boudj has worked his way around every restriction put in front of him, using a team of lawyers at every hurdle to bully his way through.

Any person who upholds the values of rugby union have to apply these same values to off field matters, there is no place for disrespecting everyone involved, taking advantage of the little guy, or bully boy tactics. They are basically the reasons I feel Toulon have hurt the game worldwide!

I think I'm missing something here..........why should a team that turns over 30m a year and makes a profit not be allowed to employ the best workforce it can muster?

Because of this thing called a salary cap and turnover does not equal available reserves to spend just the amount of money coming in the amount going out could be another story

7 & 1/2

This element is clearly aimed at Toulon as that is where the conversation has gone, we can discuss other French issues if you wish.

Scarlet & Broadlandboy

Ok thats good to know, but then with professional sport other trends start to emerge, such as crowd booing and players cheating, do you both approve of those things as natural evolution of professionalism?

Fanster should rename his thread the Mourad bickering thread

the only thing Mourad Boujellal can be blamed for is possibly interpretating the salary cap rule differenlty than other clubs. note that 1) it is not proven and 2) not ruled illegal. as for spending heavily , cheating , booing etc this is not a Toulon speciality by any means. fanster maybe it's about time you show some proof / evidence when you state things that border libelling else you could think about renaming yourself trollster

for the record I do not like Mourad Boujelall. as a matter of fact nobody likes him appart Toulon supporters. he's an attention seeker media lady of loose morals, talks too much, threaten publicly, complains and insult at will etc etc all barking and no biting in the end. it's part of his media strategy , be on the front scene, make sure PEOPLE (like you) always talk about Toulon. it's obviously working.

It appears to be Toulon you have the real problem with that's all. it's clear they have Toulon at the top of their priorities, they've spent a lot of money getting a fantastic team but their academy looks in good shape so perhaps France will start to see some benefit for their work?

"media lady of loose morals"
I obviously didnt write that !

whocares wrote:"media lady of loose morals"  
I obviously didnt write that !

I think we know what you meant

Personally, like I said before there are issues with unbalancing effect of money. 

But there seems to be two kinds of responses when you get a Toulon. One is to try and cut them down to size and the other, much harder, route is to try and find new ways to be competitive. The OP seems much keener on dragging Toulon back to the same level as the rest of us than in trying to improve performance closer to home. Toulon are obviously too 'up themselves' and must therefore be cut down.

whocares wrote:"media lady of loose morals"  
I obviously didnt write that !

Shame.  For a moment I thought you a highly literate gent with a smart way with words.  
And, what, may I ask, is wrong with a lady of loose morals?  Not like we are talking about prostitution or something????

Who cares

I have not once called Toulon cheats, or said they boo'd, I used booing and simulation as mere points that proffessional sport evolves, as somebody was making the point bullying, hissy fits and off pitch poor behaviour is just business.

I'd don't actually dislike Toulon, as a club I am indifferent to them as I am every French club, what I am is insensed by someone who respects nothing of the sport but profit, and domination.

Why is it noone responds to points made on these threads and just either curtails off on another trajectory or resorts to cheap point scoring?

I've made the points that off field powerfull peoples behaviour is reflected in the management set up, and then players, who are seen by millions, why does this guy not get held to the same standards as crowds, players or officials? Why does he get written off as just nother businessman, and why do so many defend him but vigorously attack other reas of the sport they dislike as un rugby like?

What about their academy? You said they dont nurture talent thet look like they have some good uns coming through.

Fanster wrote:

I've made the points that off field powerfull peoples behaviour is reflected in the management set up, and then players, who are seen by millions, why does this guy not get held to the same standards as crowds, players or officials? Why does he get written off as just nother businessman, and why do so many defend him but vigorously attack other reas of the sport they dislike as un rugby like?

He's far more accountable than referees and fans. When was the last time referees or fans were banned for something, like Boudjellal was?

Half time

Stade lead by 9pts to 3. Kicking is the difference. Steyn 3/3, Clermont 1/3

Morne steyn is on top form since the play-offs. Will be interesting to see if Meyer sticks with him or goes with Pollard. Clermont look like 2nd best once again and this score is actually flattering for them.

whocares wrote:Morne steyn is on top form since the play-offs. Will be interesting to see if Meyer sticks with him or goes with Pollard. Clermont look like 2nd best once again and this score is actually flattering for them.

He has but he's been weak tonight. He's so one dimensional as a 10. Great for the right game plan though.

Yes he's one dimensional but PSA would sell his mother to have a FH with a quality kicking game like that.

And I thought last year final was bad...

Are Clermont the biggest chokers in history? Always have an awesome team but I've lost count of how many finals they've lost!

The Saint wrote:Are Clermont the biggest chokers in history? Always have an awesome team but I've lost count of how many finals they've lost!

Must be up there, in the last 16 years they've played in 12 finals lost 9, won 1 top 14 and two challenge cups.

Some of that is down to fans thinking the best team is the one that plays the most 'attractive' rugby. Where as the history of rugby teaches different. Therefore clockers tag is often put on the teams that play very good attractive rugby, when they lose to teams that just want to play good rugby.

Well I used to feel a bit sorry for them but not anymore. After all these years... they still don't have a reliable kicker!!!! Talk about not learning any lessons from defeats.

They also played some of the most brainless rugby I've seen in a while. For instance being pushed over the sideline at least 3 times is not something you see often.

God that was an awful game. Still the build up ceremony was quite nice to watch...

It's funny how different cultures approach these finals. By comparison the Prem final was very low key, although I can't see BT/PRL ever going the rout of massive golden rugby ball coaches and lovely ladies parading the Jeff around.