French Open Day 15. Let's get ready to crumble?...

by temporary21 Sun 07 Jun 2015, 1:28 am

First topic message reminder :

You know what's on. Roll up. Roll up

by HM Murdock Sun 07 Jun 2015, 9:44 pm

bogbrush wrote:Commiserations Murdoch, I know you've been a bag of nerves for days. Been there, not a nice place!

Thanks BB.

I'm more annoyed at myself for allowing my feelings be so influenced by something that is ultimately so meaningless to my life! I've been relatively sanguine today but I was disgraceful during the Murray match.

I really think BB Senior has the right outlook on this...

by Haddie-nuff Sun 07 Jun 2015, 9:47 pm

I'm feel more annoyed at myself for allowing my feelings be so influenced by something that is ultimately so meaningless to my life

I can identify with that.. had to give myself a good talking to.<slap> I feel a lot better now Wink

by HM Murdock Sun 07 Jun 2015, 9:52 pm

Silver wrote:Sorry HM, socal and slasher. A very tough defeat to take, but Novak will be back - great champions always are. I hope he gets another chance in the future. That ovation at the end was heartbreaking.

Thanks. Today proved to be a much needed reality check.

After such a long unbeaten run, one's expectations perhaps start to elevate beyond where they should be!

I felt pretty despondent this time last year but a few weeks later Novak was Wimbledon champion, so you never know what's to come.

And as I mentioned earlier, whether Novak wins or loses, it doesn't actually change my life in any way, so perhaps this is nature's way of giving me a well-deserved slap for being a fanboy!

by Hammersmith harrier Sun 07 Jun 2015, 10:11 pm

socal1976 wrote:Unfortunately fed eats all the cupcakes and doesn't leave any for other people, I am surprised he isn't as portly as Wawrinka's brothers with all the cupcake draws he has feasted on in his career.

Don't be such a child and sore loser, lets be honest here neither Federer or Djokovic beat Nadal at his best on clay just like how they wouldn't beat Federer at his absolute best at any of the other three. The draw and the balance of probabilities are as such that you'll be facing three top ten players at the most during a GS with it more than likely being two, dismissing a GS on the back of an 'easy draw' is just pathetic and any fan of any sport should have more respect for the players. The problem I have is that the game is now engineered to suit grinders like Djoko, Nadal and Murray with slower courts, go back ten years and in my opinion they aren't anywhere near as effective anywhere outside of France.

by slashermcguirk Sun 07 Jun 2015, 10:42 pm

Well played to stan today, better player on the day. To all the djokovic haters on here, really need to get a life. I don't get how people have such hatred for certain players. I know people seem annoyed that he was the one who broke up the fedal duopoly but get over it.

All credit to djokovic, his legacy is already in place with 8 slams, level with the likes of Connors, Agassi, Lendl and co. I wouldn't bet against djokovic winning over 10 slams and he will be one of the all time greats. To all his haters on here, get over it.

Congrats wawrinka. Djokovic will hopefully have his day at the French.

by bogbrush Sun 07 Jun 2015, 11:12 pm

'All the haters'? I thought people have been generous really.

Anyway, tough tournament.

by Haddie-nuff Sun 07 Jun 2015, 11:13 pm

by hawkeye Sun 07 Jun 2015, 11:26 pm

Oh. gosh! I couldn't watch but when I heard the result my first thought was poor, poor Nole. Life can be really tough. Djokovic and the holy grail... He is always so nice when he loses I forget all the other stuff. Well for a bit anyway.

by Silver Sun 07 Jun 2015, 11:53 pm

You were very prescient when you mentioned recently that so much can change in tennis so quickly, HM. It can lead to reversals like today, but as you say, the rebound from Novak was spectacular last year when he truly needed it at Wimbledon. I don't think there's anything wrong with being emotionally invested, either! Irrational, perhaps, but not wrong - and we're all guilty of it anyway Wink

slashermcguirk wrote:Well played to stan today, better player on the day. To all the djokovic haters on here, really need to get a life. I don't get how people have such hatred for certain players. I know people seem annoyed that he was the one who broke up the fedal duopoly but get over it.

All credit to djokovic, his legacy is already in place with 8 slams, level with the likes of Connors, Agassi, Lendl and co. I wouldn't bet against djokovic winning over 10 slams and he will be one of the all time greats. To all his haters on here, get over it.

Congrats wawrinka. Djokovic will hopefully have his day at the French.

I know it's a tough defeat, but come on.

by **laverfan** Mon 08 Jun 2015, 3:47 am

slashermcguirk wrote:Well played to stan today, better player on the day. To all the djokovic haters on here, really need to get a life. I don't get how people have such hatred for certain players. I know people seem annoyed that he was the one who broke up the fedal duopoly but get over it.

Perhaps SoCal can answer that question. Wink

(I do not understand hatred for any player not just certain players. There is much of it on display though, M'Lord.)

by Haddie-nuff Mon 08 Jun 2015, 4:15 am

Hatred is an emotion that I personally cannot afford..it achieves nothing but to destroy one's own psyche.
To hate someone you do not even know, is incomprehensible, futile to the extreme.

by bogbrush Mon 08 Jun 2015, 8:44 am

Haddie-nuff wrote:+1

We're going to have to stop meeting like this. People will talk...........

by Guest Mon 08 Jun 2015, 9:12 am

I don't get the vibe people hate Djokovic. You can't help but get more excited by the shot making of Stan when on song compared with a Djokovic.

by slashermcguirk Mon 08 Jun 2015, 11:48 am

Maybe hate was a strong word but I am surprised on here by how much people dislike certain players. This is a guy who has won 8 slams, has won over 20 masters, beaten nadal 21 times, federer 19 times and Murray 19 times. I don't think he gets the kudos he deserves, he is also a great shot maker and handles himself very well in defeat. Find it hard to understand what is to dislike about him.

Granted I don't find the likes of ferrer exciting to watch but still have so much admiration for him. I get people being fans of players but I don't get the huge dislike of other top players. What is it that people dislike so much about djokovic?

by Haddie-nuff Mon 08 Jun 2015, 12:15 pm

bogbrush wrote:
Haddie-nuff wrote:+1
We're going to have to stop meeting like this. People will talk...........[/quote

I must be getting soft in my old age...or you are

by kingraf Mon 08 Jun 2015, 2:26 pm

Hate is such a strong word. I'm quite glad Djokovic lost. I don't hate the guy, I find it impossible to, as I don't even know him. That said though, there's an element of happiness in seeing him lose. If Djokovic lost every game for the rest of his life, I'd be quite pleased. Well, I wouldn't quite. I liken it to my intense dislike for James Anderson. Much like Djokovic, I do wish for him get heavily dismantled every time he bowls a spell, but at the same time, I can't really have that happening because then he'd get dropped, and I wouldn't have a player to want to watch fail. Similarly, I certainly wouldn't want Nole to fall down the rankings, because I'm not going to bother cheering against the world #345, but any time he's on... you can guarantee I'll be cheering against him. The only athlete I genuinely can't stand is Floyd Mayweather, and that's because he's made a fortune portraying himself as a despicable excuse for human being, while being in fact, a despicable excuse for a human.

by **laverfan** Mon 08 Jun 2015, 2:37 pm

slashermcguirk wrote:Maybe hate was a strong word but I am surprised on here by how much people dislike certain players. This is a guy who has won 8 slams, has won over 20 masters, beaten nadal 21 times, federer 19 times and Murray 19 times. I don't think he gets the kudos he deserves, he is also a great shot maker and handles himself very well in defeat. Find it hard to understand what is to dislike about him.

Dislike is due to a lack of identification and empathy with the other person. It is also because player x is my hero, how dare player y be considered better than my hero. There are a million shades of such variations, and manifest themselves in different shades of commentary.

I like the player but do not like his tennis. I cannot stand the number 9 on someone's shoes, or number 15 on someone's jacket, etc., etc. Djokovic taking an MTO was one reason for such dislike. There are millions of such around. They get written every day on such discussion fora.

If the basis of sport and competition is lost and winning is a self-serving goal, then sport loses it's meaning and essence. Just read the TV thread and you can see it on display.

BTW, not to single out SoCal, I should perhaps have Jahu also provide some insight into his thought process.

This discussion may need it's own sticky.

slashermcguirk wrote:Granted I don't find the likes of ferrer exciting to watch but still have so much admiration for him. I get people being fans of players but I don't get the huge dislike of other top players. What is it that people dislike so much about djokovic?

A segment of American spectators got pi$$3d at Djokovic with the Roddick incident. It took a while to mend fences including a mock match with McEnroe in NY to make Djokovic more likable. His dancing evoked two diametrically opposite reactions. The Ad campaign with MaSha helped.

I like his imitations of other players. Very nice and they show his sense of humor. His Tennis is fantastic, even though not everyone likes the specific brand.

by HM Murdock Mon 08 Jun 2015, 2:45 pm

I was always pleased when Rafa lost.

Now it's happening more than previously, I'm not enjoying it as much. Perhaps the rarity was part of the appeal.

laverfan wrote: I should perhaps have Jahu also provide some insight into his thought process.

Please don't. That's a mind that I really don't want to see inside. Wink

by Haddie-nuff Mon 08 Jun 2015, 3:19 pm

Well I too confess to being pleased to see Novak lose,, his attempts to ingratiate himself is a bit ott for my taste, and I find that prevents me liking him,, as for his tennis he is simply one of the best no question.

by Hammersmith harrier Mon 08 Jun 2015, 3:29 pm

I do dislike Djokovic as a sportsmen, the majority of his matches are dull drab affairs (never understood commentators getting a boner for his 5 setters against Nadal) and the level of gamesmanship he uses in games is disgraceful. He's a very good player benefiting from an era that suits grinders as opposed to shot makers like Wawrinka and lets be honest Stan, Tsonga and Del Potro are infinitely more exciting to watch.

by dummy_half Mon 08 Jun 2015, 3:31 pm

HM Murdoch wrote:I was always pleased when Rafa lost.

Now it's happening more than previously, I'm not enjoying it as much. Perhaps the rarity was part of the appeal.

laverfan wrote: I should perhaps have Jahu also provide some insight into his thought process.
Please don't. That's a mind that I really don't want to see inside.

This precisely - applied to Federer as well in the mid 00s, where his defeats were as rare as hen's teeth.

I'm not a Djokovic fan - perhaps because his playing style is so clinical. There is no way though that this should mean I hate him or want him to lose every match. He's a great champion and well deserved #1 of the moment

by hawkeye Mon 08 Jun 2015, 3:58 pm

laverfan wrote: how dare player y be considered better than my hero.

It's funny the way players are supported or not for reasons that have nothing to do with them as individuals. Yesterday Wawrinka would have found himself suddenly supported with the full might of the combined forces of Federer and Nadal fans but that would have had more to do with Djokovic than Wawrinka. Perhaps a small consolation but Djokovic may have gained a few Murray fans because of his opponent chin

by Belovedluckyboy Mon 08 Jun 2015, 4:01 pm

Im beginning to like Stan's tennis. I like both Fed and Rafa's tennis, to me those three represented three different styles: Stan - power tennis from the baseline with finesse at the net, and I do think tennis will be played this way more and more going forward. Fed - all court attackig with varieties tennis; Rafa - defence cum offence baseline tennis plus finesse when at the net.

Its true that when Fedal were at their peak dominating, they rarely had it tough, ie hardly needed to go the distance beating anyone except each other. Novak OTOH has to outlast his opponents and struggled at the slams in order to win; just look at how many 5 sets matches he has to play in order to get through the draw to reach the later rounds.

Compared to Fedal and Stan, Novak's tennis looks more robotic (as if theres no weakness, so well balanced at both wings), but credit to him, with the help of Becker, he does improve his net approaches and net game, Im quite impressed with his drop shots this FO followed with his approaches to the net and anticipated well his opponents actions there and so covered his positions well there at the net. Hes becoming an all round player now and comparatively looking less robotic than before.

by Haddie-nuff Mon 08 Jun 2015, 4:04 pm

Does that include you then HE?? Very Happy

by bogbrush Mon 08 Jun 2015, 4:09 pm

I like Stans tennis for the SHBH, not for the man who what little I know of isn't to my taste (the family behaviour).

Novak inspires my respect for the standard of his game and for his remarkable good grace in the face of good shots by opponents, and on-court honesty but there is just no way I can get emotionally positive about the tennis. It's just so damn robotic, in my opinion (I know Murdoch wishes he could genuinely be more robotic and avoid the dips, but you know what I mean).

As for the volleys, well Becker is taking on a mountain there, though he's obviously on a good thing with the service improvement.

by hawkeye Mon 08 Jun 2015, 4:23 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:Does that include you then HE??

Well yes. I felt a bit bad for Djokovic when he lost but I still wanted him to lose. Can you imagine we would have been told 1>9 Erm

not to mention 1>1 but now we will just be told 0>9 ... Wink

Belovedluckyboy wrote:

Compared to Fedal and Stan, Novak's tennis looks more robotic

and Nadal. Novaks tennis IS robotic. That is his strength but it doesn't make scintillating viewing. He looks his best when he plays either Federer or Nadal as they can bring him out of his comfort zone. I didn't see the final but I imagine that Wawrinka must have been able to do the same. I do have memories of an excellent match Djokovic played against Stephanick years ago at the US Open. It went to 5 sets and was also great to watch for the same reasons.

by Josiah Maiestas Mon 08 Jun 2015, 5:48 pm

You don't need to be a genius to know that Novak was below his best, none of his fans are crying about an injury like Nadal fans did after Stan beat him in AO.

by Haddie-nuff Mon 08 Jun 2015, 5:58 pm

Josiah Maiestas wrote:You don't need to be a genius to know that Novak was below his best, none of his fans are crying about an injury like Nadal fans did after Stan beat him in AO.

Who are the Nadal fans you are talking about ?
What do you mean that Novak was below his best...says who?. Unsubstantiated claims me thinks

by banbrotam Mon 08 Jun 2015, 6:27 pm

I'm convinced Novak's problem is simple - he doesn't perform at his very best in any kind of heat, i.e. anything above 25C (on court conditions - so that would often be far less 'locally')

It's only an issue when playing a peer who will cause you problems, if your performance dips

It's no coincidence that his defeats at Wimby 2013 and US Open last year, occured again opponents and weather that asked questions. I'll back Murray to the hilt, but if Friday had been cool, he wouldn't have been taking a couple sets off Novak. Christ!! Nole was wilting in the first set, until the 'ice request'. Yesterday was also warm enough to matter and the number of times he seemed to struggle for air was quite significant

I think it was Paul Scholes who said he could never be at his very best at Euro/World Cups, due to his asthma and suffered in 2002, so he felt we never saw his best

Of course he can win in these conditions, he's just not as good. Just one of those things

by banbrotam Mon 08 Jun 2015, 6:35 pm

I also like Novak. The nonsense that he and Murray have had to answer over their perceived attitudes etc has been ridiculous

If we hadn't had those two, the tennis would have been a whole lot duller in all aspects

I like players in all sports who maximise their ability and even better if we seem them improve in front of us

That's why I'm please for Stan, who used to frustrate me because I believed he was better and now he's showed

And I've always admired Nishikori - if only the others around his age had his heart and mentality.

by Josiah Maiestas Mon 08 Jun 2015, 7:32 pm

Haddie-nuff wrote:
Josiah Maiestas wrote:You don't need to be a genius to know that Novak was below his best, none of his fans are crying about an injury like Nadal fans did after Stan beat him in AO.

Who are the Nadal fans you are talking about ?
What do you mean that Novak was below his best...says who?. Unsubstantiated claims me thinks

https://www.606v2.com/t51366-if-nadal-was-selfish-he-would-have-retired You are welcome.

Oh, if you believe Novak the defensive master defended very well yesterday then I don't know what to say to you.

by Josiah Maiestas Mon 08 Jun 2015, 7:36 pm

And yes I know it is hard to defend very well against a powerhouse like Stan the Man, I believe Novak ran out of steam for some reason, maybe he is cursed.

by Matchpoint Mon 08 Jun 2015, 8:36 pm

JM, I still believe the spilled-over match with Murray contributed somehow to his form looking "out of steam" . My view is consistent with the same message in different words from the Warwrinka's angle, as reported here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/08/sports/tennis/french-open-2015-stan-wawrinka-defeats-novak-djokovic-for-title.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0

"But then Wawrinka did have the edge of an extra day’s rest before the final. Djokovic’s five-set semifinal victory over Andy Murray was contested over two days, finishing [url=x-apple-data-detectors://1]Saturday afternoon[/url] after being halted [url=x-apple-data-detectors://2]at 3-3[/url] in the fourth [url=x-apple-data-detectors://3]on Friday evening[/url]."

This is not to take anything away from Warwrinka's genius last Sunday, or to say that Djoko would have won if he had had the extra day of rest like Stan. But if they had gone into the match equally fresh, perhaps the result would have potentially been much closer, say a tight 5-setter with a couple of tie-breaks....

by Haddie-nuff Mon 08 Jun 2015, 8:40 pm

Oh really.................HE GOT BEAT BY A BETTER MAN ON THE DAY.. he said so himself...do get over it. Accept his loss with the same grace he did.... picard

Yesterday has gone

by Matchpoint Mon 08 Jun 2015, 8:46 pm

??
I'm not even a Djokovic fan. I like both Novak and Stan. What's Your problem, HN?

by HM Murdock Mon 08 Jun 2015, 9:12 pm

bogbrush wrote:As for the volleys, well Becker is taking on a mountain there, though he's obviously on a good thing with the service improvement.

I think both have improved enormously but both are skills where you either have "it" or you don't. An acquired skill will never reach the consistency or imagination of a natural aptitude.

I'd be genuinely interested to know how much thought someone like McEnroe put into their volleys and how much was instinctive.

In response to the other discussion above, Novak's personality is part of the attraction to me. I find him intriguing. I can't think of another sportsman at the very top of their game who is afflicted by such self-doubt, insecurity and need to be loved.

Top sportsmen usually have huge egos and couldn't care less what people think of them. Sportsmen with Novak's characteristics tend not to make it to the top.

That Novak has made it to the top almost in spite of himself is an interesting juxtaposition to me.

by bogbrush Mon 08 Jun 2015, 9:21 pm

While inherent aptitude is massive, they all have a great deal of it. I think McEnroe didn't give volleying too much thought because he'd drilled it into his brain so deep it became automatic.

That's why Djokovic can make himself a decent volleyer but he'll never get it the way he makes ridiculous ground strokes from impossible positions without needing to think, because that's what he has burned into his brain from an early age.

by Matchpoint Tue 09 Jun 2015, 10:01 am

Matchpoint wrote:??
I'm not even a Djokovic fan. I like both Novak and Stan. What's Your problem, HN?

@ HN, your silence speaks volumes. Whatever (personal) issues you have, heed your own words first: "... do get over it. Accept ... Yesterday was gone." Rolling Eyes

by dummy_half Tue 09 Jun 2015, 10:48 am

I don't think the carry over of the Murray match made a big difference to Djokovic - they played just about an hour on Saturday after playing about 3 hours on Friday. Had the 5th set gone deep and been intense then yes it would have been a serious hindrance (as much for emotional energy as physical), but really it was not that much more than a knock up.

On Sunday, Novak played a match that was a bit below his average level, while Stan played very well indeed (noting of course that very often an opponent playing well makes you look like you are playing badly). The better player on the day won, but I haven't heard Djokovic make any excuses or justifications for this. Soemtimes it just happens.

by Matchpoint Tue 09 Jun 2015, 11:10 am

Of course, DH, nearly every point we make here is speculation. We don't know what happens behind the scene. I can respect a reasonable view different from mine. Agree to disagree, that's all. But I won't tell you to "get over it" like I know better than you; I don't think you would do that either. thumbsup

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