Boris Becker - it's an open secret that Federer and Djokovic don't get on

First topic message reminder :

Just as I was beginning to think that the Federer-Djokovic relationship had warmed in recent times, along comes Boris with a new autobiography.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/11660998/Boris-Becker-political-correctness-is-bad-for-tennis.html

I feel a bit sorry for Roger and Novak who will now undoubtedly be asked questions about it.

I agree that there is a bizarre obsession from fans for their player to be the nicest guy, and the top guys to be great friends and have love for each other. I can think of some if HE's posts where she imagines Roger and Rafa hanging out and giggling about stuff. Fantasy world.

I'm sure Murray wanted to say 'you are a faker!' In Australia, to which Novak would probably have said 'right back at you!'. I'm sure Rafa wanted to rip Rosol's head off at Wimbledon, and Soderlings. I reckon Roger wishes he could have told Novak's team to shut the f*ck up to their faces... And so they should. They are rivals for goodness sake.

Murray knows better than anyone it is not worth opening up to the media, so they pretend they are all lovely with each other, but they aren't friends.

I wish there was more adversarial behaviour on court, and off it. Spice things up. Players should be fined for NOT swearing.

Danny_1982 wrote:I agree that there is a bizarre obsession from fans for their player to be the nicest guy, and the top guys to be great friends and have love for each other. I can think of some if HE's posts where she imagines Roger and Rafa hanging out and giggling about stuff. Fantasy world.

I'm sure Murray wanted to say 'you are a faker!' In Australia, to which Novak would probably have said 'right back at you!'. I'm sure Rafa wanted to rip Rosol's head off at Wimbledon, and Soderlings. I reckon Roger wishes he could have told Novak's team to shut the f*ck up to their faces... And so they should. They are rivals for goodness sake.

Murray knows better than anyone it is not worth opening up to the media, so they pretend they are all lovely with each other, but they aren't friends.

I wish there was more adversarial behaviour on court, and off it. Spice things up. Players should be fined for NOT swearing.

Roger and Rafa giggling and stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94xyOpETYYs

I don't see any pretense there. They appear to have great mutual respect. Maybe because both are self assured and confident.

Yeah HE, I'm sure they're probably on the phone to each other right now, whispering sweet nothings.

Danny_1982 wrote:Yeah HE, I'm sure they're probably on the phone to each other right now, whispering sweet nothings.

Don't you think you can hit a beautiful backhand down the line or a clean forehand winner without hurling abuse and wanting to kill your opponent?    Theatrics is for losers

Danny_1982 wrote:I agree that there is a bizarre obsession from fans for their player to be the nicest guy, and the top guys to be great friends and have love for each other. I can think of some if HE's posts where she imagines Roger and Rafa hanging out and giggling about stuff. Fantasy world.

I'm sure Murray wanted to say 'you are a faker!' In Australia, to which Novak would probably have said 'right back at you!'. I'm sure Rafa wanted to rip Rosol's head off at Wimbledon, and Soderlings. I reckon Roger wishes he could have told Novak's team to shut the f*ck up to their faces... And so they should. They are rivals for goodness sake.

Murray knows better than anyone it is not worth opening up to the media, so they pretend they are all lovely with each other, but they aren't friends.

I wish there was more adversarial behaviour on court, and off it. Spice things up. Players should be fined for NOT swearing.

This is great!

I know you lead the line on this forum in enjoying spiky behaviour Danny, but getting fined for not swearing is a bit much! Likewise, if I told someone to f*ck off over something that small, I'd probably be ducking very swiftly afterwards!

I do agree with the sentiment though. As you know, the trouble is with the media leaping onto every perceived misdemeanour - however slight - like pigs at a trough. I don't blame Murray and the others for not saying much to stir up controversy, they get hounded about even the tiniest negative utterance. Question is, how do you change it?

Haddie-nuff wrote:Yea MMT1 I know where you are coming from..but given the quotation above this was what made Jimbo tick, neither of them would be able to play today given that they made up their own rules. But you have illustrated my point in your description of Mac. It was a Fed/Nadal situation you were one or the other.. and what you saw was what you got from Jimbo but Mac was more deceitful in my view. his father who was a lawyer got him of any misdemeanours he was guilty of.MacEnroe was disrespectful of all officials and all players OTHER than Borg.
Yeah Jimbo was a brawler.. but I loved his tennis..maybe I just love bad boys eh  

I enjoyed Connors' tennis - not much else about him, but that's a matter of taste, and one cannot account for the public's.  Just one correction - the only penalty that McEnroe's father successfully appealed was the one he got for his boorish behavior at Stockholm in 1984 against Anders Jarryd, where he told the umpire, "Answer my QUESTION!  The QUESTION, JERK!", then smashed the ice bucket onto the King of Sweden, and then fired a ball into the crowd.  Not only was he not defaulted, but his penalty was overturned on appeal, and I believe that was because he was so popular and successful at the time that the tour didn't want to live without him (money, attention, buzz, etc.), because as I said, ALL other penalties appealed by his father, were upheld.

Ashe did say that early in his career, McEnroe got the nickname "Junior" because his father was such a vociferous and steadfast presence at all his matches AND because McEnroe appeared to be spoiled rotten. Ironically, nothing could be further from the truth, his mother was VERY hard on him, and his father pushed him to play more and better once he committed to tennis.

But I digress...

Wait a minute - please don't put Murray in the category of a victim - he can and has gotten plenty catty in the past with a lot of players (Berdych, Rosol, del Potro) so I don't really seem him as a victim of the press. Although I find his complaints hilariously narcissistic, they are hilarious and I rather enjoy the emotional involvement of frequently wanting to see him lose. I think he's a fantastic player, and actually very much enjoy his game...but he's a real sourpuss - but without villains we'd have no heroes.

I have come to appreciate Mac in latter years, recognising him as one of the greatest players, but as I say there were two different schools at that time, one or the other.. However for all their faults, and we have illustrated only some of them, their matches were entertaining and controversial.
We realise how outrageous  they both were, how they  pushed the rules to the  limits, and indeed how serious it was really, but at the time it seemed funny.
They must both have been good as  we are still talking about them so many years later.

Silver wrote:

Danny_1982 wrote:I agree that there is a bizarre obsession from fans for their player to be the nicest guy, and the top guys to be great friends and have love for each other. I can think of some if HE's posts where she imagines Roger and Rafa hanging out and giggling about stuff. Fantasy world.

I'm sure Murray wanted to say 'you are a faker!' In Australia, to which Novak would probably have said 'right back at you!'. I'm sure Rafa wanted to rip Rosol's head off at Wimbledon, and Soderlings. I reckon Roger wishes he could have told Novak's team to shut the f*ck up to their faces... And so they should. They are rivals for goodness sake.

Murray knows better than anyone it is not worth opening up to the media, so they pretend they are all lovely with each other, but they aren't friends.

I wish there was more adversarial behaviour on court, and off it. Spice things up. Players should be fined for NOT swearing.

This is great!

I know you lead the line on this forum in enjoying spiky behaviour Danny, but getting fined for not swearing is a bit much! Likewise, if I told someone to f*ck off over something that small, I'd probably be ducking very swiftly afterwards!

I do agree with the sentiment though. As you know, the trouble is with the media leaping onto every perceived misdemeanour - however slight - like pigs at a trough. I don't blame Murray and the others for not saying much to stir up controversy, they get hounded about even the tiniest negative utterance. Question is, how do you change it?

Yeah I don't think my 'fined for not swearing' suggestion would make it onto the ATP continuous improvement suggestion log.... But I agree with Becker that a relaxing of the rules that penalise players for any behaviour other than perfect would benefit the game.

All sportsmen are so media trained now that it's actually quite dull. I mean, we are denied real intense rivalries because nobody acknowledges they exist. It's quite interesting that the women seem less bothered about being squeaky clean. Sharapova is known as an ice queen by her competitors, and Serena has quite a history of diva behaviour. Azarenka and Serena went through a period where their clashes were incredibly fierce... And Stephens essentially slated Serena that one occasion...

The men should take a leaf out of their books in that sense. Murray's "nobody on tour likes you" to Rosol the other week was hilarious! But there's no way he'd do that in a slam, and that's a shame.

Mac had more friends on tour and the players generally liked him. He is an engaging and sociable guy who just goes a little nuts on a tennis court. He wasn't the type to try to attach or smear or cheat an opponent if he had to. I just watched Espn's 30 on 30 about Connors' run in 91 to the USO semis at age 39. It really breaks down the kind of guy Jimmy was. Again Connors I liked much more than Mac. But, while Mac was generally pleasant and liked guy in the lockeroom Connors was not. One story from that special that really shows you the kind of guy Connors was involves Aaron Krickstein. Before the 5 set match with Aaron, Aaron was friendly with Jimmy. Aaron would be Jimmy's hitting partner and had often been over to hangout at Jimmy's house and with his family. After the famous 5 setter at the USO in the 4th round when Jimmy came back from 5-2 down to win the fifth set Connors never once contacted or talked to Krickstein. And Connors also during the match new Aaron was super fit and liked to play fast and he did everything possible to slow down the match I mean what would happen if we had the time violation back then. He would change his shoes, change his racquets go and chat up the fans, take MTOs for seemingly non-existent injuries. While Mac's fury was mainly directed at umpires Connors was much more in your face to his opponents. Connors basically looked at tennis as a street fight played at a distance of 90 feet, which was great line from that special.

A Brawler, a street fighter absolutely. I think his opponents were intimidated by him, he cared not for what was thought of him. BUT there must have been another side.. I saw a Biography of Chris Evert some years ago, whilst I was still living in Spain, and when it came to the years  she was married to Jimbo, she said her father never spoke to her for two years when she divorced him, that's how much her father thought of him.  So what side of him did he show her when he married her and subsequently her father.

Haddie-nuff wrote:A Brawler, a street fighter absolutely. I think his opponents were intimidated by him, he cared not for what was thought of him. BUT there must have been another side.. I saw a Biography of Chris Evert some years ago, whilst I was still living in Spain, and when it came to the years  she was married to Jimbo, she said her father never spoke to her for two years when she divorced him, that's how much her father thought of him.  So what side of him did he show her when he married her and subsequently her father.

My first post and sorry I have to correct you on this one. Evert was not married to Jimmy Connors. They dated for a while only. Her father was upset about her divorce from tennis player John Lloyd and apparently her father did not talk to her for a while after that split.

Of course, I stand corrected

I can think of a few players who didn't like McEnroe - particularly Bill Scanlon, whom he told in the middle of a match "Don't you understand that nobody in the stadium or in the tournament wants you to win - why don't you just get out of the way?".  Boris Becker whom he had the temerity to tell in 1985, "Why don't you win something before you start complaining," after Becker had argued line calls. Connors, who disliked him from the beginning to end. Lendl, who couldn't stand him - ever. Wilander who said he always considered all of his ranting and raving to be a huge waste of talent.  Guillermo Vilas and Jose Luis Clerc to whom he said, "Why don't you go f--- yourselves", in the middle of a Davis Cup match - at which point it was left to Arthur Ashe to enter the court during play and threaten to default the match if he continued to behave that way.  Or maybe Gary Muller, the South African who grew tired of McEnroe's antics in a doubles match and told him he was going to punch him in the gut after the match. Or the african american linesman he told at a Davis Cup match against Boris Becker in 1987, whom he felt was being too honest, "I didn't know they had black germans!" Or maybe Nikki Pilic in that same match, whom grew tired of his delays (arguing line calls...what else), and asked the umpire to move it along, to whom McEnroe said, "You shut up, Nikki - god d--- it!"

I could go on, but it will seem like I've got it in for McEnroe - I love the way John McEnroe played, and I love what he did for tennis - but it came at a cost, and while his antics were probably more genuine than Connors, being a genuine a-hole is still being an a-hole, in my book.

Forgot this one: Steve Denton once grabbed John McEnroe by the neck and rammed his head into a locker following a tantrum that McEnroe threw on the court with him.

Some great quotes there MMT1, and a (nostalgic .... ?) reminder of times past when guys like Connors, Mac (and, to a lesser extent, Nastase) came out with stuff that really did cross the line - the sort of stuff that often resulted in big wedges of prize money being handed straight back as settlement of fines.

These days it's incredibly rare to hear anything approaching the level of yesteryear  - now it's more like handbags at five paces. Roddick was perhaps the most recent who felt the need to get stuck in, although it was fairly mild by comparison, and at least accompanied by a certain amount of dry wit, notably in some of his pressers.

As a sign of just how much times have changed, no better example than that infamous 'Be Quiet' comment by the Fed, which somehow spawned a whole 606 thread, but which in reality wouldn't raise an eyebrow at an 8 year old's birthday party.

Johnny Mac's book 'Serious' is a great read, and was clearly an opportunity for him to reflect with the benefit of hindsight, and the perspective of greater maturity as a family man, on just what a prat he could be at times. Many times, in fact !

To me it is rather irrelevant if the guys behave or not. I do not care if they hate each other - openly in public if they choose so - or if they have amicable relationship.

I find the notion that some spice is needed a bit low-brow but similarly I have no need for mutual respect and appreciation either.

I want them to play great tennis, the rest is neither here nor there. McEnroe and Edberg used to be my two all-time favorite players - one a jerk and the other - by all accounts - a gentleman. Makes no difference to me. They are not my friends or relatives.

I find it hilarious when players' fans exhibit obvious need to defend their favorite player's personality and character.

summerblues wrote:

I find it hilarious when players' fans exhibit obvious need to defend their favorite player's personality and character.

I find it even more hilarious when some players fans appear to want their favorite player to jump over the net and bash their least favorite player

summerblues wrote:To me it is rather irrelevant if the guys behave or not.  I do not care if they hate each other - openly in public if they choose so - or if they have amicable relationship.

I find the notion that some spice is needed a bit low-brow but similarly I have no need for mutual respect and appreciation either.

I want them to play great tennis, the rest is neither here nor there.  McEnroe and Edberg used to be my two all-time favorite players - one a jerk and the other - by all accounts - a gentleman.  Makes no difference to me.  They are not my friends or relatives.

I find it hilarious when players' fans exhibit obvious need to defend their favorite player's personality and character.

Im not sure what you find so hilarious just because there are some who also think of these players as human rather than tennis machines, Or why don't we just have robots.. programme them to play like McEnroe and Edberg that should keep everyone happy,

Haddie-nuff wrote:

summerblues wrote:I find it hilarious when players' fans exhibit obvious need to defend their favorite player's personality and character.

Im not sure what you find so hilarious just because there are some who also think of these players as human rather than tennis machines,

We know far more about their tennis than about their personalities.  The former is there for all to see while we only get heavily scripted glimpses of the latter.  That alone makes fan attachment based on personality suspect.

In addition, tennis and personality can be quite independent - foulmouthed jerks can play aggressive or defensive tennis, they can be good servers or returners, they can play SHBH or DHBH etc.  The same goes for players with other personalities.  

However, tennis fans often want to see in tennis players more correlation between tennis and personality than there really is.  So they may become a fan of a player because of their game style but then try to convince themselves that the player also has the right personality (or vice versa).  And it is that last part that I find hilarious - the part where fans are trying to mold the player into the being they want them to be.

Haddie-nuff wrote:Of course, I stand corrected

Why the sarcastic eyeroll? You were having a whole conversation with another poster about how when Chris Evert and Jimmy Connors divorced her father was upset and that because of that perhaps Connors was not such a bad guy off court as he was on. First of all, Evert and Connors were never married and secondly, John Lloyd was the guy Evert's father was supposedly upset about after the split. So you were basing your whole part of the conversation on something incorrect.

Connors was never this nice guy in the whole Chris Evert scenario. In fact, there was that whole controversy last year where Connors blabbed about Evert having an abortion and not giving him a choice about it as the reason for their breakup. This is not something a nice guy talks about publicly especially without notifying Evert first. Evert was caught totally off guard when the book came out.  Nope, Connors is pretty much an arsewipe on and off the court. A great player and one of the great entertainers. A real character. But nice on and off the court?  Not so much.

TheGreatGazoo wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Of course, I stand corrected

Why the sarcastic eyeroll? You were having a whole conversation with another poster about how when Chris Evert and Jimmy Connors divorced her father was upset and that because of that perhaps Connors was not such a bad guy off court as he was on. First of all, Evert and Connors were never married and secondly, John Lloyd was the guy Evert's father was supposedly upset about after the split. So you were basing your whole part of the conversation on something incorrect.

Connors was never this nice guy in the whole Chris Evert scenario. In fact, there was that whole controversy last year where Connors blabbed about Evert having an abortion and not giving him a choice about it as the reason for their breakup. This is not something a nice guy talks about publicly especially without notifying Evert first. Evert was caught totally off guard when the book came out.  Nope, Connors is pretty much an arsewipe on and off the court. A great player and one of the great entertainers. A real character. But nice on and off the court?  Not so much.

[b]The eye roll wasn't for you it was for me

Because I made such a stupid mistake,,,, GET OFF YOUR BIKE !!!

the part where fans are trying to mold the player into the being they want them to be.[/quote]

Well that is based only on your cynical observation and your opinion of other posters, you have no way of knowing what if any truth is behind that what a jaundiced view you have. I have noted your comment and will take more notice of your posts in future

Haddie-nuff wrote:what a jaundiced view you have.

Jaundiced view?  Why?  Would you not agree that people in general - not just in tennis but everywhere in life - have a very strong tendency to see what they want to see rather than to see what is?  I am sure I am also guilty of that - though I hope I at least try to moderate that natural human tendency in me.

I remember a soccer match between Austria and Germany many years ago where each side was awarded a penalty kick during the match.  After the match they played back commentators' reactions to both penalties - both from German and Austrian TV.  German commentators were certain that the penalty awarded to Germany was fair while the one awarded against Germany was unjustified.  Not surprisingly, exactly the opposite view was expressed by the Austrian commentator.  And commentators obviously play to what they expect their audiences to want to hear.

I just think it is so obvious that people try to mold reality to fit their desires all the time.  And on tennis fora, among the most comical examples are the ones I mentioned - when fans choose to see their favorite players in whatever light they want to see them.

Do you not think it happens all the time?

Haddie-nuff wrote:


The eye roll wasn't for you it was for me

Because I made such a stupid mistake,,,, GET OFF YOUR BIKE !!!

Oops. Apologies. I thought the eyeroll was for me.

SB - There's a theory in psychology which states that everyone tries to create a story about their life, ie give past events a connection, as would be the case in a movie. An example would be getting going to mall, and getting mugged on your way home. Two separate events, but the brain weaves the story to become "Got mugged BECAUSE I went to the mall". It's probably the same in fanatism. I like Nadal, but I also like nice guys, ergo, in the the absence of evidence contrary, Nadal must be a nice guy.

kingraf wrote:It's probably the same in fanatism. I like Nadal, but I also like nice guys, ergo, in the the absence of evidence contrary, Nadal must be a nice guy.

Yeah, I imagine that is just about exactly how it goes.