AP Ringfencing

How far away do you think we are from this scenario and how many team would be in it - 10...14?

Which teams would you include in that?

I think sadly (from my point of view), we are not very far away at all. Bristol and Worcester are the obvious ones but the last team is tricky. If Leeds sort themselves out then I think it will be easy for them to make the argument that as a share holder they should be in the top tier. My feeling is that 14 would make sense, plus a scrapping of the LV cup. This will inevitably also be accompanied by a salary cap increase, as it will be argued that a larger squad will be needed.

It wasn't that many year ago that Wasps managed to lose to Birmingham/Solihull, but the gap between the leagues is so much bigger now, its hard to see that happening.

Personally I am against ring fencing as the only reason these teams are currently in the top flight is they happened to be there when the music stopped. The exception being Wuss, who are really the only club to have really scaled the leagues from the bottom.

We are close, and not sure I am a fan.

I would instead look at PRL running two 10 team divisions. With partial ring fencing (to gain promotion to either facilities and business plan have to be in order).

but then I would not let clubs run at such huge deficits either. If rich men want a rugby play thing they should give the money in some way other than a loan - ie large annual sponsorship. This way if they get bored the club does not have a pile of debt.

I agree with LT - I think that as ring fencing is inevitiable it should be expanded to include the Premiership and Championship - the current top 12 plus the top eight from the Championship would be about right - two divisions of 10 with two up - two down promotion.

Every three to five years there can be a process of tendering to join the Championship - based on facilities and business plans being in place - maybe for the first two clubs to move up there could be automatic entry to bring the divisions back up to twelve each and then by competitive process.

The two divisions are run by RFU/PRL in conjunction as the Jeff currently is and the TV money is shared with both divisions.

My thing with ring-fencing (even temporary ones) is that it's there to give the club some stability. But what that really means is that it widens the gap even more to the level below. Sure, it gives them time to plan, etc but then the risk is if they fail to get promoted in their window it's another 3-5 years before they have another go.

Personally I'd ring-fence pro licenses.  And this wouldn't be done on league or position but the full gamete of issues (performance, financial stability, ground, location, etc), similar to the rugby league licenses (although I think they've scrapped that system haven't they?). As for location, do we want to try and ensure a reasonably even spread in the country if we're ring-fencing? Clearly this is no good if the standard is way short but if the choice was Newcastle and Bristol and Bristol were a little better who should be there (considering this is for more than couple of seasons).

I've knocked up a map of the teams in the premiership (red) and the teams in the championship (green) [roughly].  Reasonable spread when you consider all together (although there are hot spots in the midlands and south west) EDIT: forgot London Welsh but they're on about moving again, so that's my excuse.

Very close. Bristol get promoted. Premiership ringfenced. Championship clubs get compensated. BT buys 6 nations. British and Irish League anyone?

Chunky Norwich wrote: British and Irish League anyone?

No thanks.

It's coming, I can feel it in the air tonight.

The English clubs would get less money, it's not coming.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The English clubs would get less money, it's not coming.

They would get loads more.

Of course they wouldn't. And there would probably be less from Europe as well as it would be then very similar to the domestic league. A lose lose situation.

Would the London Welsh Lawyers be on the hunt if they weren't included?

Can we do a pro's and cons?

Well if LW could develop the basics that the pro clubs aspire to (e.g. a ground, an academy, some kind of financial plan etc) then they could. 

On current evidence that is unlikely.

lostinwales wrote:Well if LW could develop the basics that the pro clubs aspire to (e.g. a ground, an academy, some kind of financial plan etc) then they could. 

On current evidence that is unlikely.

They are not PRL, so they won't be in the 14.

There would be no Europe if we had a B&I league.

The overall expenditure from TV companies would not be higher (by any significant amount) than currently shelled out for Pro12/AP/Europe.

There is no benefit to AP clubs from a B&I league, only downsides.

If ring fencing occurs would that leave London Welsh and Scottish to fend for themselves?

Meaning the opportunity to join the Pro 12 would be possible, and thus starting a British and Irish league automatically?

By default maybe. Is there enough room for 2 more teams over there?

No 7&1/2 wrote:By default maybe. Is there enough room for 2 more teams over there?

Not in the current format. PRO12 have already stated that there has been no talks about bringing any Championship/AP sides into the league, and no plans to so so. Not going to happen any time soon.

Would the RFU allow a side in England to play in another countries league?

Possibly but I doubt it. And why on Earth would they want them? Two teams not good enough for the bottom of the premiership with hardly any fans. It's not going to generate any particular English interest in the competition so who would it benefit? LW and LS if they were ring fenced in but I would have thought it would be more like the Italian situation where the RFU had to pay for the privilege.

the only way they're ever going to get in is if they actually become good. Then the Pro12 may want them but I can't see this happening any time soon.

Well I don't think the Italian clubs have proposed much of saying within the Pro 12, aren't they massively in debt and owe the Pro 12 money?

If they run into trouble and have to pull out, then slots could open up.

With regard to the RFU, I have no idea what they would want or how they would feel, but would it not then present a vested interest in the Pro 12 for the RFU, a way of player development maybe without comprimising the AP?

A lot of money for player development though given the amount of players developed through the leagues already.

Fanster wrote:Well I don't think the Italian clubs have proposed much of saying within the Pro 12, aren't they massively in debt and owe the Pro 12 money?

If they run into trouble and have to pull out, then slots could open up.

With regard to the RFU, I have no idea what they would want or how they would feel, but would it not then present a vested interest in the Pro 12 for the RFU, a way of player development maybe without comprimising the AP?

It's my understanding that they aren't massively in debt. They owed some money to PRO12 which was to be paid before the start of next season. I think the figure was about £600k.

Why would PRO12 agree to bringing in two clubs for the benefit of AP or RFU? The PRO12 isn't, and should never be viewed as, a development league for RFU.They have their own leagues to develop players.
Keeping the two Italian teams is by far the better option for PRO12 than it would be bringing in two clubs that can't compete in the AP, and would probably struggle financially themselves.
I'm not against the addition of other clubs, but those clubs must be ready for PRO12, and PRO12 must be ready for them. Those two clubs aren't ready.

Fanster wrote:If ring fencing occurs would that leave London Welsh and Scottish to fend for themselves?

Meaning the opportunity to join the Pro 12 would be possible, and thus starting a British and Irish league automatically?

WUM.

Munchkin wrote:

Fanster wrote:Well I don't think the Italian clubs have proposed much of saying within the Pro 12, aren't they massively in debt and owe the Pro 12 money?

If they run into trouble and have to pull out, then slots could open up.

With regard to the RFU, I have no idea what they would want or how they would feel, but would it not then present a vested interest in the Pro 12 for the RFU, a way of player development maybe without comprimising the AP?

It's my understanding that they aren't massively in debt. They owed some money to PRO12 which was to be paid before the start of next season. I think the figure was about £600k.

Why would PRO12 agree to bringing in two clubs for the benefit of AP or RFU? The PRO12 isn't, and should never be viewed as, a development league for RFU.They have their own leagues to develop players.
Keeping the two Italian teams is by far the better option for PRO12 than it would be bringing in two clubs that can't compete in the AP, and would probably struggle financially themselves.
I'm not against the addition of other clubs, but those clubs must be ready for PRO12, and PRO12 must be ready for them. Those two clubs aren't ready.

It's not about being a development league though, it's about being a succesfull league, and from Pro 12's point of view having 2 london based clubs instead of 2 Italian clubs would make a lot of sense.

I read that the Italian teams are running at ridiculously low budgets due to their overheads strangling them. Treviso had to drop the majority of their playing squad due to not having any money to pay them, and even with the new competition their heads are barely above water.

Isn't there talk of Italian reform and diverting back to a semi pro league?

I get that LW and LS aren't top quality teams now, but with the option of Pro 12 rugby maybe a combination or alliance could prove beneficial for all sides, the WRU, RRW, SRU and RFU could all potentially benefit, and both clubs could grow exponentially.

If the RFU agreed to allow LW and LS to join the PRO12 on the basis that it would help RFU develop players, then RFU would view it as a development league, as would others.

Having two London based teams wouldn't make sense if those two teams couldn't compete, and couldn't afford to compete. Remember, these two teams would be required to travel to Ireland and Italy (assuming the Italian teams remain).
I don't know that replacing the Italian teams would make sense. Surely it would make sense to keep the Italian teams in the hope that they develop into strong competing teams and encourage the growth of rugby union in Italy? It has huge potential. It's a matter of realising that potential.
The Italian teams cut back last season and they did so because of the uncertainty caused by the war over the Euro competition. As a result other nations swooped in and snatched up many of their players. There is a rebuilding of those teams at present, and hopefully there will be a marked improvement over the next couple of seasons. The new competition monies won't have had any impact on any club at this point. It won't be until those monies are paid that we will see what sort of difference it makes.
There was talk of some sort of restructuring, but I wasn't aware that any restructuring meant the two clubs are pulled out of PRO12.
I'm not convinced having RFU in the PRO12 mix would be a benefit. Personally I don't want it. The PRO12 was set up to give smaller rugby nations a chance to develop, to grow the game, to compete against the best in Europe. England isn't a small rugby nation and well able to develop their own players within their own leagues. If the likes of London Welsh were to come in it would, or should, be under the wing of WRU.
Bringing either of those teams in now at the expense of the Italian sides, would weaken the PRO12, not strengthen it.

I can see another Welsh region and another Scottish region from each country before the exile teams are considered. Unless the Pro 12 decides to have two tiers in the future I cannot see any London club joining the Pro12. It's a nice thought though.

Would be interesting if the AP was ring fenced at 14 teams, and RFU invited to enter 4 teams in Pro 12 (Italians to Pro D2 and could work up).

RFU and PLR have had issues recently esp about games being played durning World cup and compassion for that, they may decide that they want to try and regain control.

Instead of entering clubs RFU enter 4 Regions (London, North etc)
Means RFU have same control over players as IRFU, own academies, would pay less to clubs.

Could make things very interesting.

Kingshu wrote:Would be interesting if the AP was ring fenced at 14 teams, and RFU invited to enter 4 teams in Pro 12 (Italians to Pro D2 and could work up).

RFU and PLR have had issues recently esp about games being played durning World cup and compassion for that, they may decide that they want to try and regain control.

Instead of entering clubs RFU enter 4 Regions (London, North etc)
Means RFU have same control over players as IRFU, own academies, would pay less to clubs.

Could make things very interesting.

You think fully owning and operating 4 regions would be cheaper than the price they pay to clubs for access to players outside of the international window? Despite these 'issues' the PRL and RFU are actually in a pretty good place IMO.

These newly created teams would be lucky to have a couple of thousand supporters, they'd devalue the Pro12 anyway.

Id like to see two divisions of 8 to 10 teams which was mooted a couple of years ago. It wont happen though, more likely 1 division of 14 and an even more overstretched season.

Also, last I heard the Italian teams were running on high budgets. The reason players left is because they didn't know if they would be in the Pro12 or not until quite late on. I'm talking English salary cap level.

Gooseberry, same here.

HammerofThunor wrote:Also, last I heard the Italian teams were running on high budgets. The reason players left is because they didn't know if they would be in the Pro12 or not until quite late on. I'm talking English salary cap level.

Gooseberry, same here.

I'm not sure that is remotely true, I've read that Zebre is running on a lower budget than most pro D2 teams and the likes of Bristol etc.

Anyway apologies to those on this thread, I didn't mean to derail it and lead you down a British and Irish league path

Thought this was a good comment from an Italian fan in response to Jeff Probyn talking out of a dark and nasty place:

giomamo January 27, 2014 at 9:15 am
"I disagree. Italian rugby federation (FIR) asked Celtic members to get the opportunity to introduce two professional franchises due to the goal to improve the elite of Italian rugby players and avoid to let them (or at least most part of them) to go to play abroad (Top14 and Premiership). They are paying every year about 3 euro-millions fee to other Celtic nations just to have the rights to subscribe own franchises into the competition. This is the real issue actually: this cost became unsustainable! FIR’s president is just asking other members to decrease this amount of money. At the moment they are close to reach an agreement for about 1.5-1.7 euro-millions per year. The key is that Italian franchises are unable to provide incoming enough from sponsors, TV-rights and attendances, compared to other Celtic nations. So the story of 784 clubs is fascinating but we have not the tradition and deep roots of Countries as Wales or Ireland. That number of clubs is not so impressive for a 60-milions people Country, after all. And system is largely based on amateur players and structures. The way to enforce the domestic system was already tried in the last decade and it didn’t reach the hoped success. Did the columnist know it? Or his hope is just that Italian franchises can leave the tournament as soon as possible to get rid of the unpleasant “guest” to free space for Wales and/or Scottish new teams?"

- Jeff Probyn spouting nonsense about the Italians and PRO12

Jeff Probyn wants the game to return to the (sh)amateur days. His articles for TRP are among the worst researched I have ever seen.

Fanster wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Also, last I heard the Italian teams were running on high budgets. The reason players left is because they didn't know if they would be in the Pro12 or not until quite late on. I'm talking English salary cap level.

Gooseberry, same here.

I'm not sure that is remotely true, I've read that Zebre is running on a lower budget than most pro D2 teams and the likes of Bristol etc.

Anyway apologies to those on this thread, I didn't mean to derail it and lead you down a British and Irish league path  

Where have you heard that? The FIR spend about £8.2M on the teams each year (I remember reading it was waited to Zebre) and Treviso have the heavy Benetton sponsorship.

Edit: but yes, off topic

LondonTiger wrote:Jeff Probyn wants the game to return to the (sh)amateur days. His articles for TRP are among the worst researched I have ever seen.

He doesn't strike me as someone who has the finger on the pulse of world rugby. Strange considering he is really someone who should be in the know. Maybe he's just lazy

HammerofThunor wrote:

Fanster wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Also, last I heard the Italian teams were running on high budgets. The reason players left is because they didn't know if they would be in the Pro12 or not until quite late on. I'm talking English salary cap level.

Gooseberry, same here.

I'm not sure that is remotely true, I've read that Zebre is running on a lower budget than most pro D2 teams and the likes of Bristol etc.

Anyway apologies to those on this thread, I didn't mean to derail it and lead you down a British and Irish league path  

Where have you heard that? The FIR spend about £8.2M on the teams each year (I remember reading it was waited to Zebre) and Treviso have the heavy Benetton sponsorship.

Edit: but yes, off topic

Considering the huge amount of players they have signed for next season they can't be totally broke. I take it that they have paid their PRO12 fee as well.
I'm really hoping to see some sort of improvement from them next season. Not much. At least one of them finishing about 9th would be a real bonus and a great starting point to forge ahead.

Bathman_in_London wrote:I think sadly (from my point of view), we are not very far away at all. Bristol and Worcester are the obvious ones but the last team is tricky. If Leeds sort themselves out then I think it will be easy for them to make the argument that as a share holder they should be in the top tier. My feeling is that 14 would make sense, plus a scrapping of the LV cup. This will inevitably also be accompanied by a salary cap increase, as it will be argued that a larger squad will be needed.

It wasn't that many year ago that Wasps managed to lose to Birmingham/Solihull, but the gap between the leagues is so much bigger now, its hard to see that happening.

Personally I am against ring fencing as the only reason these teams are currently in the top flight is they happened to be there when the music stopped. The exception being Wuss, who are really the only club to have really scaled the leagues from the bottom.

Yes but who apart from Bristol and Worcester from the Championship could even realistically compete at AP level anyway? Might as well bring them up, ring fence the league and have done with it.

LondonTiger wrote:

There is no benefit to AP clubs from a B&I league, only downsides.

Yup. This was mooted at the beginning of professionalism and rejected by the english. It would mean the death of many historical english clubs as there would not be room for them in the top flight, it would be the end of welsh pro rugby as they would not be in the top flight, there is no advantage for the irish. scots on current form it would make little difference to - Glasgow would still be a top side, Edinburgh also rans. Why would the pro 12 nations destroy their great league?

Munchkin wrote: I take it that they have paid their PRO12 fee as well.

We were assured by Sin é that the Italians don't owe money to the league.

I don't think things were as bad as the media were reporting, Chunky. They were late in paying their reduced PRO12 fee from what I can gather, but have to think that's no longer an issue when looking at all the new signings both clubs have made.
Some/someone in the media were just trying to stir things up with talk of financial trouble for the Italian teams and throwing this nonsense about London welsh and Scots into the mix.

Sorry GeordieFalcon, and all others. I have taken this off thread a bit and better leave it there.

I would like the SRU to take over london scottish and play in the english structures - and use it as a development team. The italians are in the pro 12 to stay - no place for english clubs in the pro 12. If the pro 12 does expand - and I hope it does a two league structure would allow room for a couple more welsh and Scots teams ( would the Irish want any more?) and entrys from the likes of Georgia Romania and so on.

The pro 12 is successful in its own terms, it will never have the financial clout of the english or french but could come close, it does what it was intended to do.

AP ringfencing makes me laugh tho - during all the european arguements it was loudly claimed that promotion makes the league better - we all knew that ringfencing would come in tho

Hope it never does, would make the league more boring at the bottom. Look at this year when it was a foregone conclusion. Would a development team work as they may end up qualifying for England.

Somewhere scotland needs a team to develop younger players and to give players good game time - a championship club might just be the answer. Guys like Weir and Tonks need more game time in their best positions.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hope it never does, would make the league more boring at the bottom. Look at this year when it was a foregone conclusion. Would a development team work as they may end up qualifying for England.

That's why it wouldn't work. It's the stupidest idea going, and neither will be in the Pro12.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hope it never does, would make the league more boring at the bottom. Look at this year when it was a foregone conclusion. Would a development team work as they may end up qualifying for England.

A lack of relegation threat was one of the sticks some people used to beat the Pro 12 with. If the AP were ring fenced they'd have to think of another reason why the Pro 12 is a Mickey Mouse league.

Jimpy wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hope it never does, would make the league more boring at the bottom. Look at this year when it was a foregone conclusion. Would a development team work as they may end up qualifying for England.

A lack of relegation threat was one of the sticks some people used to beat the Pro 12 with. If the AP were ring fenced they'd have to think of another reason why the Pro 12 is a Mickey Mouse league.

Who on earth would get promoted to the pro12 if there was relegation?

The PRL proposals of expansion to 14 teams and a period of ringfencing would need to be approved by RFU Council (Carling's 57 old f"rts) who, on previous form, will be staunchly opposed. PRL know this and the RFU executive (with whom EPS negotiations are ongoing) know this.

It'll be interesting to see what the PRL approach is - bludgeon, bribe or finesse. The power of the Council should'nt be underestimated as recently demonstrated when they (particularly the Northern Division members) overturned the executive's changes to lower league competitions.

It may just be a bargaining proposal, though, to be dropped when their other aims are agreed.

The consequences of expansion would inevitably lead to the demise of the Anglo-Welsh Cup which would be a great shame. It's unashamedly Mickey Mouse, but it's useful for marginal squad and younger players, and still pretty popular with crowds (about 2/3 of AP average although Exeter averaged more in the LV than HC 2 seasons ago).

The AW Cup (and it's 6 weekends) are "owned" by RFU - if PRL appropriate 4 weekends for their expanded league, that'll lead to more club/country clashes during international windows. If anything, a reduction to 10 teams is more desirable in all terms except finance, and an expansion or reformat of the AW Cup could mitigate that.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:The PRL proposals of expansion to 14 teams and a period of ringfencing would need to be approved by RFU Council (Carling's 57 old f"rts) who, on previous form, will be staunchly opposed. PRL know this and the RFU executive (with whom EPS negotiations are ongoing) know this.

Carling's 57 fart system was overhauled ages ago after the Slaughter and May report. They are much more in tune with how to govern pro rugby nowadays, and have a better working relationship with PRL than you suggest. It'l go ahead.

It'll be interesting to see what the PRL approach is - bludgeon, bribe or finesse.

I doubt the 606 site owners will be best pleased with that comment.