Aviva Prem fixtures announced today - Pro12 to follow suit?

First topic message reminder :

Aviva Premiership fixtures announced today. Great for the fans to be aware of when and where their teams will play.

Lets see how far the pro12 are behind in releasing theirs.

What would success look like for the Welsh in your eyes?

No 7&1/2 wrote:What would success look like for the Welsh in your eyes?

They already outdo themselves. With the hindrance and detriment that the Irish burden them with, they are performing above themselves. Especially the Ospreys.

The trouble is, the layman has no idea of what goes on. The man on the street just doesn't realise the hurdles that they face. so just labels them as "underachieving" and badly run. This latest farce is the last straw as far as I'm concerned. I'm afraid I won't be busting a gut to get to parc y scarlets to see the Dragons game at 6pm on a Friday. And I have a season ticket. So god on high knows how the rest of the floating voters are supposed to be encouraged to attend games. Another welsh derby they won't see. Nevermind it's on free to air tv. They can all watch it from their armchairs with their lasagne. The game is dying in Wales thanks to this league.

So when people ask why the crowds are so low, you now know the reason.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What would success look like for the Welsh in your eyes?

They already outdo themselves. With the hindrance and detriment that the Irish burden them with, they are performing above themselves. Especially the Ospreys.

The trouble is, the layman has no idea of what goes on. The man on the street just doesn't realise the hurdles that they face. so just labels them as "underachieving" and badly run. This latest farce is the last straw as far as I'm concerned. I'm afraid I won't be busting a gut to get to parc y scarlets to see the Dragons game at 6pm on a Friday. And I have a season ticket. So god on high knows how the rest of the floating voters are supposed to be encouraged to attend games. Another welsh derby they won't see. Nevermind it's on free to air tv. They can all watch it from their armchairs with their lasagne. The game is dying in Wales thanks to this league.

So when people ask why the crowds are so low, you now know the reason.

So the evil Irish have somehow given a Welsh Derby a kick off time at Friday at 6pm, the showers, it wouldn't happen to them, oh hang on, whats the other game on that day?
Is it Munster V Ulster Fri at 6pm.

Boo the evil Irish, doing this to their own games so it doesn't look like they are picking on the poor regions.

You do realise that its not the Irish that set the fixtures and TV schedules?

Kingshu wrote:

You do realise that its not the Irish that set the fixtures and TV schedules?

Of course it is.

Why couldn't they give Ukster, who play home games on Fridays a 6pm Friday kick off?

I guess that 1 and a half hour difference was too much inconvenience for the red hands. Poor dabs.

#10YearsAndCounting

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

You do realise that its not the Irish that set the fixtures and TV schedules?

Of course it is.

So the Irish set the schedule for S4C?

I notice SpynjBob Pantsgwar was on at 8am today, now I'm a SpongeBob fan, but thats a little early for me on a Saturday, wonder if I can have that changed since I'm Irish?
What time doesn't suit you Chunky I'll have it rearranged for then!

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why couldn't they give Ukster, who play home games on Fridays a 6pm Friday kick off?

I guess that 1 and a half hour difference was too much inconvenience for the red hands. Poor dabs.

#10YearsAndCounting

Guess you didn't check round 3 fixture
Fri 2 Oct 18:05
Ulster Rugby v Benetton Treviso


Or is that 5 min after 18.00 the bit that annoys you?

Kingshu wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Why couldn't they give Ukster, who play home games on Fridays a 6pm Friday kick off?

I guess that 1 and a half hour difference was too much inconvenience for the red hands. Poor dabs.

#10YearsAndCounting

Guess you didn't check round 3 fixture
Fri 2 Oct 18:05
Ulster Rugby  v   Benetton Treviso


Or is that 5 min after 18.00 the bit that annoys you?

Oh fair do's I didn't see that..........they have a one and a half hour inconvenience.

They should be commended for this and awarded a Pro12 honour for taking one for the team. Or perhaps they should get the final again for being such good sports.

Shambles.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Between the Dragons, Scarlets and Blues, there are just 3 home fixtures on a Saturday from now until 2016.

That is not viable in this country. We cannot belong to a league in which that happens.

We need out ASAP.

If we use the same criteria that you use for bemoaning Ulster, having 5 of 6 games on a Fri (therefore your including two away games)

then there are 9 fixtures Scarlets Dragons or Blues have on a Saturday.

or using the same criteria Ulster only have one home game on a Saturday from now until 2016.

You simply don't care do you.

No one cares.

The level of apathy for this diabolic competition is beyond the scale. It is now unviable for the welsh regions.

Disagreeing with you isn't apathy, Chunky, and the growing attendance at the games would strongly suggest fans are not apathetic with regards to this competition.

With just one less Friday home game than Ulster and Edinburgh, you should be delighted that Scarlets are close to the perfect day and time slot. Granted the 6pm start isn't ideal, but there was always a strong possibility that this would happen during the RWC.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

You do realise that its not the Irish that set the fixtures and TV schedules?

Of course it is.

Do you actually believe this? Honestly?

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

You do realise that its not the Irish that set the fixtures and TV schedules?

Of course it is.

Do you actually believe this? Honestly?

Of course. The pro12 run the pro12. The pro12 chiefs are Irish. The Irish run the pro12.

A broadcast deal to let one team play whenever it likes all the time is untenable. It simply wouldn't happen in any other professional league. But then pro12 aren't professional. They are a biased shambles.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What would success look like for the Welsh in your eyes?

They already outdo themselves. With the hindrance and detriment that the Irish burden them with, they are performing above themselves. Especially the Ospreys.

The trouble is, the layman has no idea of what goes on. The man on the street just doesn't realise the hurdles that they face. so just labels them as "underachieving" and badly run. This latest farce is the last straw as far as I'm concerned. I'm afraid I won't be busting a gut to get to parc y scarlets to see the Dragons game at 6pm on a Friday. And I have a season ticket. So god on high knows how the rest of the floating voters are supposed to be encouraged to attend games. Another welsh derby they won't see. Nevermind it's on free to air tv. They can all watch it from their armchairs with their lasagne. The game is dying in Wales thanks to this league.

So when people ask why the crowds are so low, you now know the reason.

But what is the level of success you re after?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

You do realise that its not the Irish that set the fixtures and TV schedules?

Of course it is.

Do you actually believe this? Honestly?

Of course. The pro12 run the pro12. The pro12 chiefs are Irish. The Irish run the pro12.

A broadcast deal to let one team play whenever it likes all the time is untenable. It simply wouldn't happen in any other professional league. But then pro12 aren't professional. They are a biased shambles.

As far as I can find out
The board of directors consists of two representatives appointed by each Union and an independent chairman (currently Gerald Davies Welsh)

Chief Executive is John Feehan as it it run out of the Lions and 6 nations office,

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/guinness-pro12-verdict-most-powerful-9304267
It’s envisaged in the longer term that this will be a standalone organisation and I won’t be involved. That’s very definitely my choice.
Basically the organisation came in-house because we have the expertise and understanding in how to move it on and I think we have.
I think the Pro12 is in a significantly better place today than it was three or four years ago. But there’s plenty more work to do. It’s not a case of wishing to be in or out. It’s just what’s right for the Pro12. Time is a difficulty for me.
Is the idea then that the Pro12 will become a completely separate organisation, removed from the Lions and Six Nations set-up?
Not initially, but perhaps in the long-term yes.

If you have a problem with John Feehan you are very much in a minority, as CEO of the 6 Nations, British & Irish Lions and Guinness PRO12
April 2002 – Present (13 years 4 months)

He is clearly the best man for the job, he wouldn't be there for over 13 years if he wasn't, and I have never heard any criticsim about his governance.

Who would you rather have Roger Lewis as he is Welsh?

Chunky Norwich wrote:Cardiff have 2 home fixtures in the first 8 rounds?

What the hell is this pathetic competition playing at?

Big chunk of change for RWC hospitality apparently.
Zebre up first, Sunday lunchtime I notice though. Lol.
I guess Cardiff won't be selling many season tickets till November.

Newport Gwent Dragons do not even have 1 home Saturday kick off organised in this set of fixtures.

Not one.

Joke league.

Even you must get bored of you.

Hilarious.

It is a bit tiresome when people keep throwing out this ground share excuse, as to why Dragons can't play on a Saturday. Football games tend to be every other week and we have proven more than capable of holding rugby double headers on the same day. I would also argue that we would probably prefer to play on a Sat where possible, to maximise the attendance potential for a Newport RFC game as well.

Perfect date would be Dragons v Treviso on Saturday 24th Oct, especially seeing as we are the only confirmed game that weekend not to be televised too.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Cardiff have 2 home fixtures in the first 8 rounds?

What the hell is this pathetic competition playing at?

Big chunk of change for RWC hospitality apparently.
Zebre up first, Sunday lunchtime I notice though. Lol.
I guess Cardiff won't be selling many season tickets till November.

Isn't that to do with the fanzone area being held on the Arms Park so they knew what they were doing when agreeing to that.

Risca Rev wrote:It is a bit tiresome when people keep throwing out this ground share excuse, as to why Dragons can't play on a Saturday. Football games tend to be every other week and we have proven more than capable of holding rugby double headers on the same day. I would also argue that we would probably prefer to play on a Sat where possible, to maximise the attendance potential for a Newport RFC game as well.

Perfect date would be Dragons v Treviso on Saturday 24th Oct, especially seeing as we are the only confirmed game that weekend not to be televised too.

Would there not still be the possibility that home football games need to be played on the same weekends? Double headers could work, but broadcasters are not going to want to broadcast Newport RFC games, and will want a particular time slot. Which means Newport RFC will be pushed into playing a time that they might not agree is ideal for them.
If ground sharing really isn't an issue, then the issue is with the broadcaster. As tiresome as the ground share excuse may be to some, although it's not something I have heard voiced much, it is much more tiresome to hear some Regions supporters constantly blame anyone else but Welsh Regions/Welsh broadcasters for issues that they are solely responsible for.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

You do realise that its not the Irish that set the fixtures and TV schedules?

Of course it is.

Do you actually believe this? Honestly?

Of course. The pro12 run the pro12. The pro12 chiefs are Irish. The Irish run the pro12.

A broadcast deal to let one team play whenever it likes all the time is untenable. It simply wouldn't happen in any other professional league. But then pro12 aren't professional. They are a biased shambles.

Hogwash. An Irish CEO and a Welsh Chair doesn't equate to PRO12 Chiefs being Irish, one chief, or the PRO12 being ran by the Irish. It's been pointed out to you on many occasions now that the PRO12 board of directors is made up with each nation being represented by two directors from each nation in the PRO12.
As Aukster has pointed out, if you have an issue with Feehan then explain exactly what that issue is. Please provide evidence in support of any claims you make.

Risca Rev wrote:It is a bit tiresome when people keep throwing out this ground share excuse, as to why Dragons can't play on a Saturday. Football games tend to be every other week and we have proven more than capable of holding rugby double headers on the same day. I would also argue that we would probably prefer to play on a Sat where possible, to maximise the attendance potential for a Newport RFC game as well.

Perfect date would be Dragons v Treviso on Saturday 24th Oct, especially seeing as we are the only confirmed game that weekend not to be televised too.

''.... Sky have 30 exclusive matches but are only allowed to cover 1 set of fixtures for instance only one Leinster v Munster match is live on Sky with the other on TG4.[12] Regional screening of matches continued, BBC Wales show Scrum V Live on Friday Night with S4C covering a match now on Sunday Afternoons. BBC Alba screen matches with some matches also available in English on BBC Scotland and BBC Alba now have English Language Red Button Commentary when not on BBC Scotland and BBC Northern Ireland screen all Ulster matches both home and away not available on Sky Sports while RTE Sport dropped their coverage after the 2014 final due to budget cuts therefore TG4 are the only broadcasters of the tournament in the Republic of Ireland. The semi-finals and finals are available to all broadcasters.''

The Dragons need to make themselves attractive to Sky Sports if they want to play more games on a Saturday.

Sky are already covering a game that weekend. We aren't televised, so why does it matter what day we play?

As for a potential double header with Newport RFC, I didn't say that Newport would have to be televised. They wouldn't have to be and also the weekend I suggested our game isn't being televised. Also, Newport County are away that weekend so there isn't an issue there either. Newport were happy with following on from Dragons v Cardiff Blues last season (Challenge Cup quarter game) and I am sure they would take a reasonable kick off time to have a chance of increasing their gate.

I know you didn't say that Newport would have to be televised. My point was that the broadcaster would want to, or only be able to, broadcast at a particular time and so Newport would most likely have to accommodate for that, even if it wasn't the best time slot for them.
There isn't much point talking about a single double header within the context of having more games on a Saturday/less on Sundays. It would only work if both could share the same grounds on the same day on a consistent basis.
If, as you suggest, there isn't a problem with ground sharing on the same day, then it is an issue with your broadcaster not being willing, or able, to broadcast those games on a Saturday. It isn't an issue with PRO12, or the scheduling of other teams fixtures within PRO12, although if it's not an issue with ground sharing then it raises the question of why the Sunday games are not shared more equally between the four Regions?
In short; it's an issue between the Regions and their broadcasters. Nobody else.

The Welsh broadcasters don't do Saturdays* it seems - its either Friday (BBCW) or Sunday (S4C). You won't play on a Saturday unless Sky are broadcasting the game. Connacht seem to also get the same treatment - obviously it is connected to your standing in the league.

*Except for the Christmas period.

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

You do realise that its not the Irish that set the fixtures and TV schedules?

Of course it is.

Do you actually believe this? Honestly?

Of course. The pro12 run the pro12. The pro12 chiefs are Irish. The Irish run the pro12.

A broadcast deal to let one team play whenever it likes all the time is untenable. It simply wouldn't happen in any other professional league. But then pro12 aren't professional. They are a biased shambles.

Hogwash. An Irish CEO and a Welsh Chair doesn't equate to PRO12 Chiefs being Irish, one chief, or the PRO12 being ran by the Irish. It's been pointed out to you on many occasions now that the PRO12 board of directors is made up with each nation being represented by two directors from each nation in the PRO12.
As Aukster has pointed out, if you have an issue with Feehan then explain exactly what that issue is. Please provide evidence in support of any claims you make.

I seem to recall that the Pro12 Tournament Director is Scottish. The Celtic League company only moved to Dublin in 2010 from Scotland.

A very good point, Sin é, although I suspect the fact that it is in Ireland at all is enough grounds to accuse the Irish of cheating. A massive leap of logic, I know, but completely reasonable for the tin hatted ones.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Cardiff have 2 home fixtures in the first 8 rounds?

What the hell is this pathetic competition playing at?

Big chunk of change for RWC hospitality apparently.
Zebre up first, Sunday lunchtime I notice though. Lol.
I guess Cardiff won't be selling many season tickets till November.

Isn't that to do with the fanzone area being held on the Arms Park so they knew what they were doing when agreeing to that.

Agreed.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Newport Gwent Dragons do not even have 1 home Saturday kick off organised in this set of fixtures.

Not one.

Joke league.

Maybe Newport GD supporters should kick up a fuss if they're not happy. Boycott games perhaps, the Cardiff way.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Newport Gwent Dragons do not even have 1 home Saturday kick off organised in this set of fixtures.

Not one.

Joke league.

Beyond a joke imo.

Why have BBC2Wales reverted back to 7.05pm kick offs on Fridays? It's just getting harder and harder to make these kick offs. The league is virtually unsellable in Wales.

I thought the big thing was the Welsh watch it on tv anyway?

Of our 10 matches annoucned, we have 9 different kick off times:

17:15
15:00
14:00
19:35
19:05
18:00
19:35
14:30
14:05
17:00


Laughable.

Why is it a problem? What would be the ideal?

I asked before but you say that the league is unviable, I assume you mean the Welsh aren't achieving the success they could; is it the starting times holding you back?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it a problem? What would be the ideal?

I asked before but you say that the league is unviable, I assume you mean the Welsh aren't achieving the success they could; is it the starting times holding you back?

Use your noodle now, and have a think about why 9 different kick off times in the first 10 games might not be ideal. Go on, I dare you.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it a problem? What would be the ideal?

I asked before but you say that the league is unviable, I assume you mean the Welsh aren't achieving the success they could; is it the starting times holding you back?

Use your noodle now, and have a think about why 9 different kick off times in the first 10 games might not be ideal. Go on, I dare you.

I'm asking you. I wouldn't be bothered.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it a problem? What would be the ideal?

I asked before but you say that the league is unviable, I assume you mean the Welsh aren't achieving the success they could; is it the starting times holding you back?

Use your noodle now, and have a think about why 9 different kick off times in the first 10 games might not be ideal. Go on, I dare you.

I'm asking you. I wouldn't be bothered.

No, you're trolling, because a 5 year old can see the problem.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it a problem? What would be the ideal?

I asked before but you say that the league is unviable, I assume you mean the Welsh aren't achieving the success they could; is it the starting times holding you back?

Use your noodle now, and have a think about why 9 different kick off times in the first 10 games might not be ideal. Go on, I dare you.

I'm asking you. I wouldn't be bothered.

No, you're trolling, because a 5 year old can see the problem.

I'm not trolling. I've asked you some simple questions. Why is the different times an issue to you. Is this why you think the league is unviable. What's your best scenario for this and what level do you think the Welsh would/should be reaching if everything was as you would prefer.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why is it a problem? What would be the ideal?

I asked before but you say that the league is unviable, I assume you mean the Welsh aren't achieving the success they could; is it the starting times holding you back?

Ideal would be knowing that your home games are played on one specific day and at one specific time. That would make marketing games far easier.

Granted this is not an ideal world. But logic would say that having pre-set kickoff times for specific days should not be an issue. Friday nigh 19:00 (or 19:30 or whatever), Staurdays 14:00 (15:00 or whatever) and the same for Sundays. That would make sense for a TV broadcaster as they would have their regular slot nailed down for rugby, and from a fans point of view you would know straight off when the game is going to be, which again makes planning your actual life around rugby far easier.

Thanks Scarlet, that being said you now know so you can plan. Having a variety may help some fans, a good mate can never get to a Saturday afternoon at 3 due to work so more times actually help. Granted you do have to check but it's not too much of a pain.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

I'm not trolling. I've asked you some simple questions. Why is the different times an issue to you.

Seriously? You can't see that havign more routine consistent kick off times is preferable to the average fan, and therefore easier to sell tickets and season tickets?

Is this why you think the league is unviable.

It's one of the myriad of reasons why it is unsellable to the Welsh public.

What's your best scenario for this

Other than leaving this dreadful league, just a level playing field would be nice. Check the corresponding kick offs for the Irish sides.  The pro12 apologists don't care about it. "It's the fault of he broadcasters not the pro12" apparently. They ignore the inconsistencies and see "Chunky just having a good old moan about nothing". Then half way through the season, they want answers to why the crowds at Welsh teams are so low.

what level do you think the Welsh would/should be reaching if everything was as you would prefer.

What level of what? crowds? Revenue? win ratio?

Right so variable kick off times put people off? Ok I could see that point of view but when you do sell your games to broadcasters you know this may be an impact. Fair enough.

You want a level playing field in regards to kick offs, I hate to say it but the main thing that impacts this is when your games are on tv. A solution could be to not sell rights.

The last point I was asking you on the unviable comment. What is unviable from a Welsh perspective? I assumed you meant it was holding back Welsh success so I was asking what would this success look like.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thanks Scarlet, that being said you now know so you can plan. Having a variety may help some fans, a good mate can never get to a Saturday afternoon at 3 due to work so more times actually help. Granted you do have to check but it's not too much of a pain.

Personally I find it a huge pain in the ring. It could just be my personal situation (living a good 90 mins plus away from the ground, working, young kids etc), but everyone I talk to about rugby tend to get wound up by the fact it is so hit and miss with when games are being played.

It is also not ideal for the half-reared fans. People who only really pay attention to the rugby come September, and only know who we are playing the week before the game. I have known of a number of those type of fans who have intended on going to a game (when it came around, e.g. Scarlets V Dragons), and then have found out the kickoff time/day the week before and have not been able to attend as they were expecting it to fit into expected Staurday kickoff time, only to find out that it was actually an earlier/later kickoff which clashed with other commitments.

You're very dedicated to get back there full stop to be fair! I live about the same distance now from my football team and get to a game a season.

105 mile round trip for me.

You both show a great level of dedication. There's no way I'd get to many at all regardless. I'd be thanking my lucky stars for tv.

Chunky Norwich wrote:105 mile round trip for me.

I do that one way and will drive almost 5000 miles for games this season if I throw a few away games in. We have 7 different Day/Time kick off combos just till end of November. TV schedules can really mess up the live fan, but without the TV revenues the game would struggle to survive. So it just takes some planning.

LondonTiger wrote:
I do that one way and will drive almost 5000 miles for games this season if I throw a few away games in.

We have 7 different Day/Time kick off combos just till end of November. TV schedules can really mess up the live fan, but without the TV revenues the game would struggle to survive. So it just takes some planning.

I have no problem if that is the same for all teams in the league. Which it seems to be in the AP.

If the pro 12 was to jointly agree one tv broadcaster would they lose money though?

No 7&1/2 wrote:If the pro 12 was to jointly agree one tv broadcaster would they lose money though?

No doubt. Because no one company would pay much money for it. Just one of the reasons why it is an unviable competition.