Irish big spenders.

Well, after all the debating about salary caps and budgets, it looks as though ChunkyNorwich was right the Irish provinces are spending as much as the French teams, bar Connacht. This link makes for interesting reading:-

http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493


Leinster have a budget of £8.75 million a year, or €10.55m. That is over twice what the Welsh regions get, £3 million more than what the English clubs get, and £150,000 more than the French clubs. How the feck can they afford to pay out that much ? And that is without outside investment, like Leinster will get for Sexton.

So, I was wrong, how the frigging hell are the Welsh regions supposed to compete with that ? How are the English supposed to compete with that ? The big Irish 3 are seriously under achieving with the budgets they get to work with. Never mind the French spending big bucks on players, the Irish have been doing it for ages.

Lorddowlais well done for uncovering this. Not that surprising as we know that the Irish have no salary cap.

Putting aside anything else, if we had the same ability to recruit foreign players as the English and French, you'd have a point about under performing, but when you can only have four guys not eligible for Ireland (or at the very least not capable of becoming eligible in 3 years) your choice is very limited. All the money in the world won't make the Sean Reidys and Sam Windsors of this world better players. If we could go out and sign as many foreign-born players as we liked you would see us be significantly more competitive in the Pro12 and Europe on the exact same budget. Of course, in the big picture that wouldn't be a good thing for Irish rugby as a whole.

Bear in mind that the funding the provinces receive comes with significant restrictions on how often they can pick international players and who they can sign to counter-balance that. Restrictions that our direct rivals would balk at.

Having had a quick skim through, that whole thing about player and management costs being 28.5m, does that figure not include the salaries of all staff working for the IRFU and the 4 individual provinces?

I've got no side in this argument, but if it does include those salaries, I'd imagine that 28.5m is slightly overblown

Yes it does.

Don't Connacht receive almost as much now as the others from the IRFU?

Golden wrote:Don't Connacht receive almost as much now as the others from the IRFU?

Yes, but they do not generate as much as the other provinces thus you get the gap in funding.

Notch wrote:Yes it does.

I thought it was for each "branch".

You're still confused about "branches" aren't you?

Notch wrote:

You're still confused about "branches" aren't you?

Well enlighten me then, because I am obviously missing something. Doesn't the Leinster branch run all rugby in Leinster ?

Yes, more or less. The Leinster Branch is ultimately responsible for the administration of the club game and the schools game. The professional side is also beholden to the Branch, although the CEO is in charge of the day to day operations of Leinster Rugby, so the professional side is it's own operation with little relation to the day to day activities of the branch although it falls under it's aegis.

Notch wrote:Yes. The Leinster Branch is ultimately responsible for the administration of the club game and the schools game. The professional side is also beholden to the Branch, although the CEO is in charge of the day to day operations of Leinster Rugby.

Yes, just as I thought, so that is €28.5m funding for each "branch". Or is it €28.5m for the whole shabang. Which equates to about 21 million pounds, split by 4 plus what the provinces turn over. Which seems more likely.

The branch is irrelevant to any of this as these costs are all to do with the professional game.

LordDowlais wrote:

Golden wrote:Don't Connacht receive almost as much now as the others from the IRFU?

Yes, but they do not generate as much as the other provinces thus you get the gap in funding.

Yes but they would get an equal share of the 27.5 that the article is referencing. So still going by the rest of the articles figures its brings Leinsters salary down to £6.79m  from £8.75m.*

Does that 27.5 paid to the provinces include bonuses to players for playing International? Presume that wouldn't be included in the AP cap?

*Using the current exchange rate

Golden wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Golden wrote:Don't Connacht receive almost as much now as the others from the IRFU?

Yes, but they do not generate as much as the other provinces thus you get the gap in funding.

Yes but they would get an equal share of the 27.5 that the article is referencing. So still going by the rest of the articles figures its brings Leinsters salary down to £6.79m  from £8.75m.*

Does that 27.5 paid to the provinces include bonuses to players for playing International? Presume that wouldn't be included in the AP cap?

*Using the current exchange rate

No, no. They each get a share of the €28.5m, which is about £21m, so lets say £5.25 million each off the union, they then get the money the provinces generate throughout the season, which bumps their budget up to €10.55m. Or £8.75m. This is the highest budget per team in Europe, or the world even. Also, that is not including outsider investment like we are seeing for players like Sexton.

Nope its €27.5 the article lists as split between the 4 teams for players salaries. That's €6.875m each. Leinsters income going towards wages is €2.7m on top of that. So €9.61M which is currently £6.83 million.

*all the figures coming from that article

From the IRFU accounts 13/14:

ERC and Provincial income is down slightly lower on last year at €10.3m but is considerably ahead of budget due to the performance of our Provincial teams.  Included in here are the net share of the broadcasting and sponsorship monies raised centrally by ERC and
Celtic Rugby Ltd.  The monies earned here go some way towards reducing the
€23.8m contribution that the Union made to the four Provincial teams and their Academies.

IRFU wrote:Professional game costs includes all costs associated with the senior National team including match costs together with the Union’s contribution to the cost of running
the four Provincial teams.

IRFU Annual Report 13-14.  p.19
http://www.irishrugby.ie/downloads/IRFUAnnualReport201314.pdf

Edit: Each Province gets €3.37m from the IRFU (about £2.4m).

Something doesn't seem right here...

Firstly Gwlad rugby?! Seems to be a link To a website run by 'posters' under nicknames, CARLOS hardly seems like anything other than a pro RRW activist!

To start with he claims a reporter willing to put his name to work was spoon fed propaganda directly from Leinster, I find this harder to swallow than The syntaxed used in this article!

If someone wanted to make a pro RRW report using the Irish system to highlight the disparity between both then they could at least have the conviction of stating facts, or using someone who knows the system to get a working knowledge. One cannot assume Gerry thornley was implying what he suggests, or then presume leinster spoon fed Howells. Then go on to say the provinces Ltd's 'appear' to be branches of the irfu or the money 'appears' to be spent on player wages.
He also says the branch accounts aren't made public but has been sent leinsters account, can we therefore reasonably presume this was by Leinster?

Appear appear appear, the titanic appears more than this guys thesaurus!

As mentioned by someone connachts split is nowhere near 50% any more, so therefore brings the split down from Leinster by a substantial margin, meaning their player wage is not over the French wage cap limit.

The ethos of the article, and all of CARLOS's articles are -

Welsh regions good - everyone else bad - WRU the devil... Poor regions boo hoo.

The article may have been far more poignant had it been factually based, and dropped the agenda, notmtom,emotion spell checked!!!

That link is for over a year ago, face it, the Irish provinces have the highest budgets in the world.

LordDowlais wrote:Well, after all the debating about salary caps and budgets, it looks as though ChunkyNorwich was right the Irish provinces are spending as much as the French teams, bar Connacht. This link makes for interesting reading:-

http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493


Leinster have a budget of £8.75 million a year, or €10.55m. That is over twice what the Welsh regions get, £3 million more than what the English clubs get, and £150,000 more than the French clubs. How the feck can they afford to pay out that much ? And that is without outside investment, like Leinster will get for Sexton.

So, I was wrong, how the frigging hell are the Welsh regions supposed to compete with that ? How are the English supposed to compete with that ? The big Irish 3 are seriously under achieving with the budgets they get to work with. Never mind the French spending big bucks on players, the Irish have been doing it for ages.

You haven't been following the discussions very closely then. If you had you would understand that nobody was disputing the figures quoted by Chunky, but were disputing the breakdown of those figures. I have also stated on several occasions that even if the Provinces are cash rich, the Provinces can't spend all that lovely money because the Provinces are restricted to signing only 4 NIQ's, and those 4 are to be cut to 3.

Just imagine the outcry if the NIQ restriction was lifted. Then those that complain would really have something to moan about

P.s That Carlos article is as misleading as it is flawed.

LordDowlais wrote:That link is for over a year ago, face it, the Irish provinces have the highest budgets in the world.

The average French Top 14 budget is €21.2m.

Toulouse's budget is €35m. The French salary cap of €10m is more than Leinster's running costs !

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_9432522,00.html

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Well, after all the debating about salary caps and budgets, it looks as though ChunkyNorwich was right the Irish provinces are spending as much as the French teams, bar Connacht. This link makes for interesting reading:-

http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493


Leinster have a budget of £8.75 million a year, or €10.55m. That is over twice what the Welsh regions get, £3 million more than what the English clubs get, and £150,000 more than the French clubs. How the feck can they afford to pay out that much ? And that is without outside investment, like Leinster will get for Sexton.

So, I was wrong, how the frigging hell are the Welsh regions supposed to compete with that ? How are the English supposed to compete with that ? The big Irish 3 are seriously under achieving with the budgets they get to work with. Never mind the French spending big bucks on players, the Irish have been doing it for ages.

You haven't been following the discussions very closely then. If you had you would understand that nobody was disputing the figures quoted by Chunky, but were disputing the breakdown of those figures. I have also stated on several occasions that even if the Provinces are cash rich, the Provinces can't spend all that lovely money because the Provinces are restricted to signing only 4 NIQ's, and those 4 are to be cut to 3.

Just imagine the outcry if the NIQ restriction was lifted. Then those that complain would really have something to moan about

Comes in handy when you are trying to stop ypur best players wanting to go and play in a league with a future though I bet.

Stone Motif wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Well, after all the debating about salary caps and budgets, it looks as though ChunkyNorwich was right the Irish provinces are spending as much as the French teams, bar Connacht. This link makes for interesting reading:-

http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493


Leinster have a budget of £8.75 million a year, or €10.55m. That is over twice what the Welsh regions get, £3 million more than what the English clubs get, and £150,000 more than the French clubs. How the feck can they afford to pay out that much ? And that is without outside investment, like Leinster will get for Sexton.

So, I was wrong, how the frigging hell are the Welsh regions supposed to compete with that ? How are the English supposed to compete with that ? The big Irish 3 are seriously under achieving with the budgets they get to work with. Never mind the French spending big bucks on players, the Irish have been doing it for ages.

You haven't been following the discussions very closely then. If you had you would understand that nobody was disputing the figures quoted by Chunky, but were disputing the breakdown of those figures. I have also stated on several occasions that even if the Provinces are cash rich, the Provinces can't spend all that lovely money because the Provinces are restricted to signing only 4 NIQ's, and those 4 are to be cut to 3.

Just imagine the outcry if the NIQ restriction was lifted. Then those that complain would really have something to moan about

Comes in handy when you are trying to stop ypur best players wanting to go and play in a league with a future though I bet.
P.s That Carlos article is as misleading as it is flawed.

And?

The discrepancy in funding remains.

What discrepancy?

Just looking up the Welsh / WRU deal. The Regions get:

£6.7 m per annum (index linked) for the release of players for international duty and observing overseas quotas.

£2m towards dual player annual pot.

£8.7m per annum going directly to the Regions (£2.2m each - not far off what the Provincial teams are getting from IRFU - £2.4m)!

The Welsh Regions presumably get to keep the income from league and champs cup (unlike Irish Provinces).

Munchkin wrote:What discrepancy?

The one that prompted the original piece on Gwlad. But anyway, let's just agree your point about not being able to spend all them oodlea of Euros was cachu tarw and leave it at that

Stone Motif wrote:

Munchkin wrote:What discrepancy?

The one that prompted the original piece on Gwlad. But anyway, let's just agree your point about not being able to spend all them oodlea of Euros was cachu tarw and leave it at that

No, it wasn't BS, and I would be amazed if you could prove it wrong. You won't of course.

As for this discrepancy? Carlos is a muppet. His article is misleading, and only fit for those willingly ignorant few on GWlad who hail Carlos to be some sort of genius. Far from it.

If they actually bothered to check out the facts by comparing funds received from the WRU and the IRFU, they would find that although the Provinces did receive more from their Union it wasn't by the vast amount the article implies.

One discrepancy does stand out though. The one that shows the Regions earned more than the Provinces in competition monies. How did that happen?...........

I've posted that link or it's content about 4 times on here before.

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:That link is for over a year ago, face it, the Irish provinces have the highest budgets in the world.

The average French Top 14 budget is €21.2m.  

Toulouse's budget is €35m. The French salary cap of €10m is more than Leinster's running costs !

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_9432522,00.html

You're getting confused between budgets, turnover and wage spend. Again.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:That link is for over a year ago, face it, the Irish provinces have the highest budgets in the world.

The average French Top 14 budget is €21.2m.  

Toulouse's budget is €35m. The French salary cap of €10m is more than Leinster's running costs !

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_9432522,00.html

You're getting confused between budgets, turnover and wage spend. Again.

LordD is quite clearly referring to budgets in the post above!

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:That link is for over a year ago, face it, the Irish provinces have the highest budgets in the world.

The average French Top 14 budget is €21.2m.  

Toulouse's budget is €35m. The French salary cap of €10m is more than Leinster's running costs !

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_9432522,00.html

You're getting confused between budgets, turnover and wage spend. Again.

LordD is quite clearly referring to budgets in the post above!

Wage budgets.

It's great to hear there's so much money in Irish rugby!

Wonder where it's all going?

Obviously not on the top players as Sexton needs a private top up.
Obviously not on the coaching, as Humphreys was lured away with an offer several times what he was on.

Still it's great to see at least one of the Pro12 countries taking rugby seriously.

Such a pity that the Welsh media try to be so divisive and undermine the Pro12 like this. Thankfully they have zero credibility.

The Great Aukster wrote:It's great to hear there's so much money in Irish rugby!

Wonder where it's all going?

Obviously not on the top players as Sexton needs a private top up.
Obviously not on the coaching, as Humphreys was lured away with an offer several times what he was on.

Still it's great to see at least one of the Pro12 countries taking rugby seriously.

Such a pity that the Welsh media try to be so divisive and undermine the Pro12 like this. Thankfully they have zero credibility.

I think the Welsh scrutinize everything about Irish rugby so much because our model has been largely successful and theirs has been largely a failure.  There is a lot of chip on shoulder stuff going on about how much of an advantageous position we have when it comes to competing with their teams.  But how is it our problem that our system works better than theirs?  I think some find it easier to look at finances, referees and the league as a whole supposedly being shaped in our favour rather than address the deep seeded problem in Welsh rugby such as player exodus, poor support, regions not being bought into, shortage of funds etc etc.

To be fair, this isn't the Welsh media. It's the cranks over at Gwlad.

It's the return of the plaid cymru anti-Irish brigade again I see. The Ulster stalker and his half-witted sidekick. It was funny at one point until it turned irritating but now it's just sad to be honest.

LordDowlais wrote:Well, after all the debating about salary caps and budgets, it looks as though ChunkyNorwich was right the Irish provinces are spending as much as the French teams, bar Connacht. This link makes for interesting reading:-

http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493

I think this bit is quite important:

The Irish provincial sides are not overperforming. They are performing on par with their funding. Maybe even below it.

That point is so often overlooked. If you take Ulster, they' haven't won a trophy in what 10 years is it? During that time they must have spent over £40m on player wages.

The Ospreys have been through financial and administrative turmoil yet have won the league 4 times. Facts like these are so often glossed over and the line that "our model has been largely successful and theirs has been largely a failure." gets trotted out quite a lot by people who really haven't got a clue.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Well, after all the debating about salary caps and budgets, it looks as though ChunkyNorwich was right the Irish provinces are spending as much as the French teams, bar Connacht. This link makes for interesting reading:-

http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493

I think this bit is quite important:

The Irish provincial sides are not overperforming. They are performing on par with their funding. Maybe even below it.

That point is so often overlooked. If you take Ulster, they' haven't won a trophy in what 10 years is it? During that time they must have spent over £40m on player wages.  

The Ospreys have been through financial and administrative turmoil yet have won the league 4 times. Facts like these are so often glossed over and the line that "our model has been largely successful and theirs has been largely a failure." gets trotted out quite a lot by people who really haven't got a clue.

I don’t really have a dog in this never ending fight but I think you are being a bit selective here Chunky.

Why did you pick the most successful Welsh team and compare them to the least successful of the bigger 3 Irish teams? I don’t have the figures off the top of my head but we both know the Irish provinces have won more than the regions in the last decade or so which suggests to me that the Irish model has some merit.

Weegie Wizard wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Well, after all the debating about salary caps and budgets, it looks as though ChunkyNorwich was right the Irish provinces are spending as much as the French teams, bar Connacht. This link makes for interesting reading:-

http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1493

I think this bit is quite important:

The Irish provincial sides are not overperforming. They are performing on par with their funding. Maybe even below it.

That point is so often overlooked. If you take Ulster, they' haven't won a trophy in what 10 years is it? During that time they must have spent over £40m on player wages.  

The Ospreys have been through financial and administrative turmoil yet have won the league 4 times. Facts like these are so often glossed over and the line that "our model has been largely successful and theirs has been largely a failure." gets trotted out quite a lot by people who really haven't got a clue.

I don’t really have a dog in this never ending fight but I think you are being a bit selective here Chunky.

Why did you pick the most successful Welsh team and compare them to the least successful of the bigger 3 Irish teams? I don’t have the figures off the top of my head but we both know the Irish provinces have won more than the regions in the last decade or so which suggests to me that the Irish model has some merit.

Definitely. I'm a big advocate of working with whatever model suits you best. And I think the Irish have got a lot right........for them. But the sacrifice of the regional game in Wales has meant that the national game has done well over the last 10 years. It's been unbalanced.

I just think that there are alot of things that tend to go unreported in rugby circles because people are lazy. The wage spend is one of them, Munster's huge debt is another, and Ulster's lack of trophies, which ultimately means they have faield in each of the last 10 years, is another.

The Great Aukster wrote:It's great to hear there's so much money in Irish rugby!

Wonder where it's all going?

Obviously not on the top players as Sexton needs a private top up.
Obviously not on the coaching, as Humphreys was lured away with an offer several times what he was on.

Still it's great to see at least one of the Pro12 countries taking rugby seriously.

Such a pity that the Welsh media try to be so divisive and undermine the Pro12 like this. Thankfully they have zero credibility.

Hookers (not Rory Best) and blow?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:It's great to hear there's so much money in Irish rugby!

Wonder where it's all going?

Obviously not on the top players as Sexton needs a private top up.
Obviously not on the coaching, as Humphreys was lured away with an offer several times what he was on.

Still it's great to see at least one of the Pro12 countries taking rugby seriously.

Such a pity that the Welsh media try to be so divisive and undermine the Pro12 like this. Thankfully they have zero credibility.

Hookers (not Rory Best) and blow?

'I spent half my money on gambling, alcohol and wild women. The other half I wasted.' WC Fields although I think there was an american golfer who used it more recently

Chunky, I'm not too sure I agree with the first bit of that. Do you think the Welsh 6N success is because they don't pay enough attention to the regions?

The Irish are very disciplined about not playing their national team players in too many province games for fear of burn out. International rugby seems to be the whole point for them (a priority I am totally on board with).

So if this is the case, should it not be the Irish who have been the most successful 6N team (maybe it is but I would have guessed Wales).

I would think the main reason Wales have been so successful is that they have had a very good and very settled coach and lots of very good and very settled players all at the same time.

Weegie Wizard wrote:Chunky, I'm not too sure I agree with the first bit of that. Do you think the Welsh 6N success is because they don't pay enough attention to the regions?

Of course. The dice has been absolutely loaded towards the national team at the expense of the regions in the last 8 years. I'm surprised I'm having to explain that.

The Irish are very disciplined about not playing their national team players in too many province games for fear of burn out. International rugby seems to be the whole point for them (a priority I am totally on board with).

So if this is the case, should it not be the Irish who have been the most successful 6N team (maybe it is but I would have guessed Wales).

I would think the main reason Wales have been so successful is that they have had a very good and very settled coach and lots of very good and very settled players all at the same time.

I wouldn't say the players are settled. Far less so than in Ireland. Where they rarely move oversea.

In Wales it has all been about the national team. For far too long. Hopefully the new CEO and Chairman will change that now.

Rory Best is a great example of an Irish player who stayed in Ireland despite the big guns offering him an awful lot of money. His loyalty to Ulster and his family life kept him here. That means more to him than a bulging bank account. That seems to be more typical of Irish players than the Welsh.

Perhaps it's the regions without souls and the stadiums without bums on seats.....

Hey Chunks - Thomond Park is staging the World Middle Weight Title fight in Sept. between Andy Lee and Billy Joe Saunders.

#moremoneyformunstertospunkonplayerwages

Possibly a €50 million Vodafone deal with Ireland.

Even more money for the wealthy Provinces, if that's confirmed   SuperRichIrelandRugby

Sin é wrote:Hey Chunks - Thomond Park is staging the World Middle Weight Title fight in Sept. between Andy Lee and Billy Joe Saunders.

#moremoneyformunstertospunkonplayerwages

more like

#MoreMoneyForMunsterToPayBackThe£9mTheyOweTheIRFU

Munchkin wrote:Possibly a €50 million Vodafone deal with Ireland.

Even more money for the wealthy Provinces, if that's confirmed    SuperRichIrelandRugby

Great bit of business.

If it's confirmed, Chunky. Hopefully the Vodaphone logo won't look as bad on the Ireland shirts as the 3 logo does, but shouldn't complain really if they're willing to pay that much for the privilege, I suppose.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Sin é wrote:Hey Chunks - Thomond Park is staging the World Middle Weight Title fight in Sept. between Andy Lee and Billy Joe Saunders.

#moremoneyformunstertospunkonplayerwages

more like

#MoreMoneyForMunsterToPayBackThe£9mTheyOweTheIRFU

Munster to host Pro12 Final next year - won't be long before Munster will be the only Province/Club to own two stadia!
#ThanksGuysForAllTheMoney