England v Australia, 2nd Test: Lords, 16th-20th July

First topic message reminder :

England

Lyth
Cook
Ballance
Bell
Root
Stokes
Buttler
Ali
Broad
Wood
Anderson


Australia

Prob Team:

Warner
Rogers
Smith
Clarke
Voges
Marsh
Nevill
Johnson
Starc
Lyon
Hazlewood



Officials

Umpires - HDPK Dharmasena and M Erasmus
TV umpire - CB Gaffaney
Match referee - RS Madugalle
Reserve umpire - AG Wharf

To be honest, I'm with Hammer here. Root and Ballance's averages remind me of two cars going in opposite directions on an incline. For that moment they are in the same place, but you just know one of them is on an irreversible decline.

Cue Ballance cracking a ton then.

Lyth goes - could this be all over today?

Lyth caught behind (for 7) playing at a ball he could have left. England 12 for 1.

Balance has had a rotten summer , no question. I agree with Craig that he has shown a deal of mental toughness in his career so far though : he struggled in earlier innings too , but battled his way through to good scores : as his figures attest.
I am concerned about his footwork against full , fast bowling. Something he does need to get right quickly ; else he probably won't last the series.
Which is not to say he wouldn't come back , of course.

All this for another day. Ten ...well now nine wickets to go...

Lyth will be feeling uneasy.

Starc is a heck of a bowler - looking good for my prediction of him being leading Aussie wicket taker this series

Olly wrote:Lyth goes - could this be all over today?

Really shouldn't be , Olly. Ball won't stay hard forever. But when these runaway trains get moving , sometimes...

Disappointed to see Lyth dismissed the same way again. I said he has another Test. But I think he'll have an anxious time waiting to see if the selectors are of the same mind.

alfie wrote:
...

Disappointed to see Lyth dismissed the same way again.  I said he has another Test.  But I think he'll have an anxious time waiting to see if the selectors are of the same mind.

Alfie - probably the thing most in Lyth's favour currently is that there isn't anyone on the county circuit making an overwhelming case to replace him.

Reckon if Nass was picking the next team Lyth might be in some trouble...though Athers seems a bit more forgiving.
That montage of dismissals was a bit disturbing. Though I imagine the Australian bowlers already had their template

Cook out and that finish could come today at this rate. Cook caught behind and England are 23 for 2.

guildfordbat wrote:

alfie wrote:
...

Disappointed to see Lyth dismissed the same way again.  I said he has another Test.  But I think he'll have an anxious time waiting to see if the selectors are of the same mind.

Alfie - probably the thing most in Lyth's favour currently is that there isn't anyone on the county circuit making an overwhelming case to replace him.

Yes ...that and the fact that they must be reluctant to go back on the revolving door again.

As Cook falls to Johnson , I do wonder again though if it mightn't be an idea to have a left/right combination at the top of the order.
But as you say , no one is making a case . Hales run out of that early form ?

Beginning to fear this might be over quicker than we think.

That was an atrocious shot by Cook - seriously poo

Bit of a nothing shot , yes. Not like Cook at all. In two minds by the look of it. I fear the strain of this match has got to him.

Wonder if Bell can play an innings here ? Would be handy.

If these two can tough it out until the ball stops swinging then they have a brilliant opportunity to prove some doubters wrong.

All the issues so far have been caused by that little bit of late movement and a bit of pace from Johnson. If Bell and Ballance can survive until the ball softens up a bit so things slow down and the swing stops then the pitch still isn't doing anything much.

Ugly shot by Cook, but I think it's mental fatigue as much as anything. As captain, he's played an active role in all but 10 overs of this test. Catching up with him.

Good session by Aus already. Got their two wickets, and anything else will be just gravy really

You feel this pair now have to put together a century partnership and bat late into the final session to get England back into a frame of mind where they truly believe they can survive. To be honest I'd be gobsmacked if this pair last until tea.

ah well. at least they won't get whitewashed this series anyway.

Olly wrote:Just has the feeling of 202-6 at the close of play tonight

Might've been a bit optimistic here

Ballance falling victim to the drink break and the usual 42/3 is on the board to greet Joe Root.

509 looking a long way off

As Joe cops one on the visor ...by the way it was good to see Rogers sitting quietly on the balcony. Smiling , even.

This test is done but I think it is important the way England lose here. A meek surrender and bowled out today or early tomorrow for around 200 and it is a deflating defeat handing all the momentum to Australia. A bit of resistance though and batting through until midway into tomorrow or around tea and being finally bowled out for 350 to 400 sends a message that they aren't going away.

Bell dropped by Vogues at first slip.

Not sure that makes as much difference as you'd think though Craig.
The Aussies have already got their superiority complex up and running anyway ; and England are probably pragmatic enough to put this one behind them and treat the next game as a fresh start.
Certainly hope they do make Australia really work. But I'm not convinced it will make much difference for the next time.
What they need to do is stop being 30-40/3 every innings. And taking the early slip chances wouldn't hurt...

CaledonianCraig wrote:Bell dropped by Vogues at first slip.

Nice to see the Aussies put them down too...

Of course they can just about afford to at the moment.

alfie wrote:Not sure that makes as much difference as you'd think though Craig.
The Aussies have already got their superiority complex up and running anyway ; and England are probably pragmatic enough to put this one behind them and treat the next game as a fresh start.
Certainly hope they do make Australia really work.  But I'm not convinced it will make much difference for the next time.
What they need to do is stop being 30-40/3 every innings.  And taking the early slip chances wouldn't hurt...

No I think it does mean a lot. If Australia steamroller their way through the England batting line-up for the second innings on the bounce (on what is regarded as still a good batting wicket) it is a massive blow to England's fragile self-belief, confidence and moral for me. It will also elevate Australia's moral even more than it is now. Just now England are on the deck but a bit of stubborn resistance and a century or two keeps members of the team's moral up and sends a message to the opponents.

Soft dismissal for Bell and England 48 for 4. No runs for five overs either. I'd say there is now a much better chance o this being over tonight than it not.

Depends how fragile the English confidence is. I remember in 2010 in Australia when Johnson and Harris destroyed England in Perth ; and all the local press assumed the home team had "the momentum" and would sweep all before them from 1-1 then... And of course England won the next two by an innings...

But it's true that team had more wins together behind them. Would certainly hope Stokes and co provide some resistance now...

This is pathetic from England.

And the other thing is I don't mind the Australians getting a bit overconfident. They'll never be less than confident anyway the way this match has gone so I doubt the final margin will make much difference.

This is a shambles. Stokes ran out - not even sliding his bat in. Schoolboy error sadly. England handing Australia victory here on a plate.

Pressure on Bell and Ballance - as well as selectors - mounting .

Stoke a dozy run out ...and this will be over this evening.

alfie wrote:And the other thing is I don't mind the Australians getting a bit overconfident.   They'll never be less than confident anyway the way this match has gone so I doubt the final margin will make much difference.

Got to disagree. This mauling is a big boost for Australia - much more so than a narrow test win or even one won by 150 wins. This looks like it is sure to be a 300 run+ win.

CaledonianCraig wrote:This is a shambles. Stokes ran out - not even sliding his bat in. Schoolboy error sadly. England handing Australia victory here on a plate.

Well summed up , Craig. Won't be taking anything from today.

At least Scotland are striking back at the Tennis

CaledonianCraig wrote:

alfie wrote:And the other thing is I don't mind the Australians getting a bit overconfident.   They'll never be less than confident anyway the way this match has gone so I doubt the final margin will make much difference.

Got to disagree. This mauling is a big boost for Australia - much more so than a narrow test win or even one won by 150 wins. This looks like it is sure to be a 300 run+ win.

It really doesn't matter one iota - a loss is a loss is a loss.

The worrying thing alfie is that this is a tame batting strip and England are 60 for 5. Two top order batting collapses back-to-back on it. That screams of either mental or technique issues or both and needs sorting but unless the selectors are ruthless then it won't be sorted and England will have to replicate what Australia did after the first test. Go away and have a good long look at themselves and come back all the stronger for it.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

alfie wrote:And the other thing is I don't mind the Australians getting a bit overconfident.   They'll never be less than confident anyway the way this match has gone so I doubt the final margin will make much difference.

Got to disagree. This mauling is a big boost for Australia - much more so than a narrow test win or even one won by 150 wins. This looks like it is sure to be a 300 run+ win.

Might be 400 !

We'll just have to disagree on the morale aspect. I reckon professional sportsmen have to handle that stuff ; but we'll see.

Olly wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

alfie wrote:And the other thing is I don't mind the Australians getting a bit overconfident.   They'll never be less than confident anyway the way this match has gone so I doubt the final margin will make much difference.

Got to disagree. This mauling is a big boost for Australia - much more so than a narrow test win or even one won by 150 wins. This looks like it is sure to be a 300 run+ win.

It really doesn't matter one iota - a loss is a loss is a loss.

No I am sorry Olly but I disagree. This in football parlances is equivalent of a 5-0 defeat with gaping defensive errors leaking goals - that is a blow to confidence and asks question marks. A narrow defeat though means your team at least was competitive and positives can be taken. No positives in maulings though.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Olly wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

alfie wrote:And the other thing is I don't mind the Australians getting a bit overconfident.   They'll never be less than confident anyway the way this match has gone so I doubt the final margin will make much difference.

Got to disagree. This mauling is a big boost for Australia - much more so than a narrow test win or even one won by 150 wins. This looks like it is sure to be a 300 run+ win.

It really doesn't matter one iota - a loss is a loss is a loss.

No I am sorry Olly but I disagree. This in football parlances is equivalent of a 5-0 defeat with gaping defensive errors leaking goals - that is a blow to confidence and asks question marks. A narrow defeat though means your team at least was competitive and positives can be taken. No positives in maulings though.

I'd argue us getting it close and then losing would be worse than getting a mauling - mentally draining to be close, and give it away. With a mauling you can just wipe it off and go again (like the Aussies have done so from the 1st test to this one).

Either way we couldn't have had two such different tests than these two!

Olly wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Olly wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

alfie wrote:And the other thing is I don't mind the Australians getting a bit overconfident.   They'll never be less than confident anyway the way this match has gone so I doubt the final margin will make much difference.

Got to disagree. This mauling is a big boost for Australia - much more so than a narrow test win or even one won by 150 wins. This looks like it is sure to be a 300 run+ win.

It really doesn't matter one iota - a loss is a loss is a loss.

No I am sorry Olly but I disagree. This in football parlances is equivalent of a 5-0 defeat with gaping defensive errors leaking goals - that is a blow to confidence and asks question marks. A narrow defeat though means your team at least was competitive and positives can be taken. No positives in maulings though.

I'd argue us getting it close and then losing would be worse than getting a mauling - mentally draining to be close, and give it away. With a mauling you can just wipe it off and go again (like the Aussies have done so from the 1st test to this one).

Either way we couldn't have had two such different tests than these two!

You can't rub out two batting collapses though. On this pitch (great for batting) then one batting collapse is careless but two is totally unacceptable and something that must just must rock confidence and is not something that can be mentally forgotten. That reeks of batsmen with issues. A close fought match though (especially here where Australia scored so highly) then England's batsmen can take lots from getting so near whereas what can they take from this? Nothing at all but a baggage car full of mental baggage into the next test.

CaledonianCraig wrote:The worrying thing alfie is that this is a tame batting strip and England are 60 for 5. Two top order batting collapses back-to-back on it. That screams of either mental or technique issues or both and needs sorting but unless the selectors are ruthless then it won't be sorted and England will have to replicate what Australia did after the first test. Go away and have a good long look at themselves and come back all the stronger for it.

That's a separate issue though Craig. There are definitely technical issues that need sorting ; but they'll still be there even if Root and Buttler make 150 each and the match is dragged out to tea tomorrow.
A large part of the problem was that Australia got firmly on top on day one ...and never had a significant stumble afterwards. When your opponent doesn't make a mistake , the pressure tends to cause errors as the match goes on : playing catch up isn't easy.

They will certainly need to take stock . But they have a short break after this match in which to address their problems.  And that's why we pay coaches a lot of money...

alfie wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:The worrying thing alfie is that this is a tame batting strip and England are 60 for 5. Two top order batting collapses back-to-back on it. That screams of either mental or technique issues or both and needs sorting but unless the selectors are ruthless then it won't be sorted and England will have to replicate what Australia did after the first test. Go away and have a good long look at themselves and come back all the stronger for it.

That's a separate issue though Craig. There are definitely technical issues that need sorting ; but they'll still be there even if Root and Stokes make 150 each and the match is dragged out to tea tomorrow.
A large part of the problem was that Australia got firmly on top on day one ...and never had a significant stumble afterwards. When your opponent doesn't make a mistake , the pressure tends to cause errors as the match goes on : playing catch up isn't easy.

They will certainly need to take stock . But they have a short break after this match in which to address their problems.  And that's why we pay coaches a lot of money...

Fair enough but this is a mauling that does no good to England and all good for Australia. Narrow defeat yes you could brush-off as a bad few days at the office but this is a heavy defeat with two batting collapses which is worrying. How do you change it around as well when Lyth, Ballance and Bell all look out of nick? That must be a chief worry.

Buttler out as the last of his tea slides down his throat.

The manner of defeat doesn't make an ounce of difference if the team is good enough to win, if the team can't recover from this game then they simply don't deserve to win the Ashes and are frankly a disgrace.

Bairstow and Taylor in for Ballance and Buttler if I had my way.

Buttler has the X factor......Can't drop him.

Ballance doesn't look good enough...neither does the opener

Well it may just force a change , in fact. Unfortunately , the current "form" player , Bairstow , isn't suited to top three.
So it could mean Root up to three ; accepting the loss to a stable spot further down.
Or else rather taking a punt on another opener , despite the arguments I've previously advanced against that.

You could certainly make a case for change(s). New coach has some thinking to do ...

Blimey I was watching Murray wrap up the tennis and I look over and two Wickets have gone down !

At least we'll see Ashes Tennis in September

Bairstow can slot in at 6/7 with Bell moving up to three with Taylor at four, I have well truly had enough of England trying to fit one day players into the test team, it didn't work with Morgan and it's not going to work with Buttler.

This is the most gutless, clueless, incompetent performance by England since the last Ashes series.

How can a side go from being pretty decent to so utterly abject in such a short space of time? Furthermore, how can professional cricketers be this bad?

If it weren't for the fact this happens on a depressingly regular basis, I'd say England were under orders to throw the match to level the series.

Also, most of the names for possible replacements, being punted around, have been tried before and found to be little or no better than what we have at the moment.

With any luck this will serve as a major boot up the backside and make them realise the Aussies are at their most dangerous when they're down. Hopefully this will beat any complacency out of England and get them playing to their potential.

Agree Bell has to go. Probably Buttler too. Would persevere with Lyth at least until the end of the series as I feel he really hasn't had a fair crack yet.

Ali can do one as well, the worst so called English batsmen i've seen since Ian Ward.

This just keeps getting worse doesn't it ?

I did fear a complete collapse was possible ; but this has actually surpassed my most grisly premonitions.

Would be a worry if Ballance ended up top scorer with 14