England's RWC Preparations

Original thread about to explode

https://www.606v2.com/t59064-englands-50-man-training-squad-for-rwc

I do not want to see Nathan Hughes ever selected for England.

Of course I also think he is over-rated based on the matches I have actually seen him play rather than the highlights show reels.

Really? From the games I've seen he's been very very good. His workrate looks to be getting better and he's everything we currently request from our 8s. I'd echo your first point though but he'll be capped.

I don't think theres any debate...he will get capped at some point....but I don't like that thought.

Doesn't give Ben Morgan or Billy V much of a vote of confidence either....

Nathan Hughes is good but still remains to be seen whether he will be as effective at international level.

As Geordiefalcon mentioned in the previous thread, Billy's workrate is very good these days. I personally thought he was the best performing forward in the 6 nations. The stats show this too. He also showed he could last for a full 80.

Morgan's issue in my opinion is fitness - can he play a 80 minute game? Also is he fully recovered?

Billy's issue in my opinion is that he could run out of steam as he's been playing almost nonstop for the last year or so. In the 6 nations he played every minute which will take it's toll on a player.

When you have two 8s - one with fitness issues and the other with fatigue issues perhaps there is room for someone else to make a mark.


http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/england-countries/six-nations-player-analysis-billy-vunipola-england-44095

Rugby world analysis of Billy V vs France.

He was excellent throughout the tournament.It'll be very interesting when Morgan and Vunipola are both fit let alone if Hughes is thrown in the mix as well.

And if Beaumont continues his impressive form...he offers a different type of 8 aswell.

I just think its shocking Hughes wont play for Fiji or Samoa. He's on a nice contract with Wasps im sure, plus sponsorship of some form. Represent your country you idiot!!

He's had some flashy runs especially against Exeter but not seen a great deal of him to be honest. Didn't impress for the Saxons, strikes me as a bit of a Croft carrier, better suited to using his pace wider?

Problem is, that makes him less valuable to Wasps so could cost him serious money.

My understanding is that he had barely played rugby when he took up a scholarship to a school in NZ. so, trying to be fair to him, maybe he feels little affinity with Fiji?


7.5 - busy family life as "TaxiDad" plus season ticket to Welford Rd, means that other than highlights I rarely see guys playing a full game. Hughes was not great when we played them in Coventry, while at Welford Rd his performance off the bench was a step down form the guys who had started. To be fair though Wasps should have won that game, but their half backs had a bad day.

A lot of clubs these days put pressure on the PI guys to not represent their country of birth, maybe that could be the case.

I really don't see the issue. Ireland have their "project" player, half of the Scotland team are from NZ, France are turning into a SA second string etc etc.

Hughes is special talent who could potentialy be world class with the right coaching, I can't wait to see him line up for England (and it's going to happen).

I suppose if you look at things from the point of view of where we started with Billy and Ben and where they are now, and then you think about Nathan Hughes going through the same transformation..

I think Ben Morgan's fitness issues were improving prior to the injury. I just hope he gets back to that level but I think he is a guy who has to work hard at it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's had some flashy runs especially against Exeter but not seen a great deal of him to be honest. Didn't impress for the Saxons, strikes me as a bit of a Croft carrier, better suited to using his pace wider?

He's certainly not in the Croft (I want to be winger) mould. He carries in traffic and through the middle of defences.

Last time I checked he had the most meters, defenders beaten, offloads of any forward in the AP, surely that says something? He also had the most turnovers which is something England are in deperate need of.

Edit: You're talking of Beaumont not Hughes

Fair enough LT, but he did have a good season.

Was about to say Beaumont didn't strike me as that sort of player sgt!

Sgt Pooly the likes of Scotland and Wales have poor strength in depth. That's the reason why they need to look further afield for players.

England have a much larger player pool than these nations - shouldn't be ignoring the player pool.

Are England in desperate need of turnovers? Surely that's what work horses like Wood and Robshaw are in the team for?

I would say that England need to be able to bully teams, tie in defenders and get over the gain line more. Something that Haskell did vs Wales but didn't seem to do in the rest of the 6 nations IMO.

England failed to score a try against Ireland - that's not good. The England team for whatever reason could not deal with Ireland - it's worrying as Ireland are not the best side in the world. I know this England team had absentees but it was still worrying.

Hughes would not solve these issues - no 8 is not an area of weakness for England.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's had some flashy runs especially against Exeter but not seen a great deal of him to be honest. Didn't impress for the Saxons, strikes me as a bit of a Croft carrier, better suited to using his pace wider?

That's why I said he offers a different type of 8...

A Kieran Read type of 8, one might say ..

Is he good in the lineout like Croft?

One thing that England need to do is the keep the penalty count down. A weakness of Haskell is his very poor discipline which made him a bit of a liability in the Ireland and French games in particular.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's had some flashy runs especially against Exeter but not seen a great deal of him to be honest. Didn't impress for the Saxons, strikes me as a bit of a Croft carrier, better suited to using his pace wider?

That's why I said he offers a different type of 8...

I was only asking. Think I've seen him play about 6 times, maybe less.

Anyway its all irrelevant as we know what the starting pack will be if everyone is fit - well bar No.8 which is a choice of the two players.

1 Marler
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Lawes
5 Launchbury
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Billy or Ben

The questions I will ask:
1) Is it good enough in set pieces.
2) Is it good enough at the breakdown
3) Does it offer enough offensively. Ie Is there enough carriers...destructive carriers either in traffic or in space
4) Is it physically tough enough. Does it have enough power?
5) Does it have enough pace? The back row looks ponderous.

1. Yes
2. Yes - if Wood is on form
3. I'd say no
4. No
5. Yes

I may be being optimistic but yes, yes, yes yes and yes.

And an important thing to consider is that a good chunk of that pack will play about 50-60 min so you need to think replacements as well.

Are England in need of turnovers?

A massive yes, it's a major area of concern.

Do we turn the ball over less than other teams or is it because we don't have a 'proper' 7?

Im not sure its turnovers that the problem.

I think its our work at the breakdown in general which can lead to the turnover question.

When you watch England...they at times look quite passive, slow and ponderous in those situations...they don't show much aggression. It menas slow ball.

You watch the Kiwis for example...and they are ruthless. They go right through the breakdown, taking anyone in the way out...and when one goes for that ball in a turnover position...the whole rest of the pack go with him like a pack of hyenas. They are aggressive, fast and efficient.

We just don't work like that. And that needs to improve.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do we turn the ball over less than other teams or is it because we don't have a 'proper' 7?

I think it's a big problem for us. When you watch other teams they seem to consistantly turn the ball over against us when we're in good attacking positions or just podding through midfield. We seem to pick up one or two a match, usually from Robshaw or Cole.

As a team and in the AP, I don't think we're good at gaining turnovers. It's such a great defensive/attacking weapon as you either gain a pen for the opposition holding on or end up attacking against a defence that isn't set.

I see Hughes residency is at the end of next season, so will possibly be first seen in the 2016 AIs??

And just seen a great post on the residency rules:

Bin the granny clause and make residency 10 years. Sorted

Curiously That's not far off my thoughts mind....

I can't agree, you normally see quite a few turnovers for England, most of the pack are good as well as Barritt, Twelvetrees and little Nowell out on the wing!

You see a few if you're lucky 7 1/2. Aus, SA, NZ gain 5/6/7 etc. It's possibly the best attacking ball you can play off and we're not strong at all here.

I'd love to see some figures, always find them a nightmare to get hold of though.

All I can find for the 6 nations is turnovers conceded which includes other things, but:

Turnovers conceded:

England 14 Wales 11
England 16 France 12
England 23 Ireland 9

Pretty sure these include things like missed passes and losing the ball in contact though. I'm not sure there is a direct stat for pilfers/turnovers.

Yeah it will be. Given how England were playing you'd probably expect to see that with offloads increased, more passes. Ireland reflects how we couldn't get going to late in the game.

Matt Dawson chipping in on the side of Burgess is not a centre.

If I had to chose the best back row make up for England (fantasy) right now it would be

6. Billy V
7. Armitage
8. Nathan

Being realistic though we need a 6 that has the best of both Haskell & Wood & we haven't got anyone available. What you gain with Wood in the line out you lose in carrying & vice versa for Haskell.

We really need the back row firing and to be at their best to compete and beat the best teams.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:If I had to chose the best back row make up for England (fantasy) right now it would be

6. Billy V
7. Armitage
8. Nathan

Being realistic though we need a 6 that has the best of both Haskell & Wood & we haven't got anyone available. What you gain with Wood in the line out you lose in carrying & vice versa for Haskell.

We really need the back row firing and to be at their best to compete and beat the best teams.

Oh come on Trev, where have you been??? We do have that player...he's called....Mario Itoje

Super Maro eh?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:If I had to chose the best back row make up for England (fantasy) right now it would be

6. Billy V
7. Armitage
8. Nathan

Being realistic though we need a 6 that has the best of both Haskell & Wood & we haven't got anyone available. What you gain with Wood in the line out you lose in carrying & vice versa for Haskell.

We really need the back row firing and to be at their best to compete and beat the best teams.

Oh come on Trev, where have you been??? We do have that player...he's called....Mario Itoje

Yep I agree he looks a great prospect & will be an England fixture post WC

This time next year is going to be am absolute nightmare for picking squads (in a good way).

Del Boy wrote:This time next year we'll be millionaires

Sadly we need it this year as that is when the WC is.

Every year there will be a string of latest hot things. Because they are new (and unproven) they will be talked up to the rafters. Then should they turn out not to be world beaters we will vent our frustrations on the player, rather than our own absurd expectations. For some the hype becomes so great that they need to become all time greats just to live up to it.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:If I had to chose the best back row make up for England (fantasy) right now it would be

6. Billy V
7. Armitage
8. Nathan

Being realistic though we need a 6 that has the best of both Haskell & Wood & we haven't got anyone available. What you gain with Wood in the line out you lose in carrying & vice versa for Haskell.

We really need the back row firing and to be at their best to compete and beat the best teams.

Great back row as long as there are no lineouts...

Bit harsh LT. I've said for a couple of years at least that this WC probably comes too early for us. The amount of experience isn't ideal but the ages of the majority of players suggests they will continue to improve for a good few years left. That combined with a some really good youngsters coming through in areas of relative weakness provoked my comments; don't think it's pie in the sky talk.

Not saying it's pie in the sky, just suggesting we should not assume the team will improve. Things always change in unexpected ways.

That could be good - injuries to current players, young replacements come in and thrive while remaining experienced players improve.

Or bad - current players stagnate and new players fail to deliver on promise.

Fair enough, but it would be disappointing if those players listed and some others aren't at least applying pressure.

Oh I hope they are applying pressure - but they may not be quite ready when given their chance and dropped for a while, perhaps ever.

Josep[h and Nowell are now deemed nailed on starters and bright young things (though JJ only one day younger than Manu). Both were selected by England then dropped. JJ played two tests in SA alongside Manu but his form fell away and he was struggling at LI before he left. Nowell had an ok 6Ns in 2014 and must have learnt a lot from that but poor form and injury saw him left out in the summer and Autumn.

Both these guys came back stronger but there are guys who never get a second chance for various reasons. The recently retired pair of JTH and Anthony Allen a case in point.


Our main problem position is 12 - but in all likelihood Barritt will play there in RWC and if fit for some time yet, with little opportunity for young guns othger than injury.

I think we're likely to get some changes in the 6Ns no matter what. I can't see Barritt or twelvetrees holding onto the 12 spot even medium term.

LondonTiger wrote:

Del Boy wrote:This time next year we'll be millionaires

Sadly we need it this year as that is when the WC is.

Every year there will be a string of latest hot things. Because they are new (and unproven) they will be talked up to the rafters. Then should they turn out not to be world beaters we will vent our frustrations on the player, rather than our own absurd expectations. For some the hype becomes so great that they need to become all time greats just to live up to it.

Yes there are the latest hot things but quite a few of those hot things as you call them have gone on to play for England.

I have been talking about Itoje because I think he is different from the others. He's been successful as U20s winning captain, been successful as LV Cup captain.  He's younger than the other current prospects yet he's got an AP title under his belt as a starter. For a 20 year old that's pretty impressive. I think that does make him stand out from the other prospects.

People got excited when the likes of B.Youngs,Cole and Manu came on the scene. I am feeling that way about Itoje. Sure he's got a lot to prove but he's only 20. He should get better. He's also got skills and physique that means it should be easier for him to make the transition to international level IMO.

England need to back the right players if they want to be aspire to be the best in the world again.


I have criticised Nowell and think Lancaster threw away with the 6 nations against France but his picking of Nowell has paid dividends now.

Nowell has developed into a much more complete player. Short term failure, long term success so far.

Shame that Lancaster hasn't done the same in the backrow selections though. There's not the same risk playing a youngster in a rugby world cup warm up compared to having your first cap against France away in the 6 nations.

Baffled why he's not playing someone like Burgess or Itoje as a 6. Disappointing.

I don't think anyone here has stated that Itoje doesn't deserve a shot. Its just two questions, what position and when.

And for the last tiem Nowell wasn't the reason we lost against France last year!

No 7&1/2 wrote:And for the last tiem Nowell wasn't the reason we lost against France last year!

Yeah it was Goode's fault!

lostinwales Well I think 6 and now. Better to play Itoje in a world cup warm up game than throw him into a match like France away or Wales/Ireland at home in next year's 6 nations.

I don't like to see youngsters have their 1st cap in a tough match away if possible.

Do the 6 options of Wood,Haskell and Clark feel you with confidence and excitement?

Personally I wanted to see Lancaster adding another option.

I wasn't impressed with Haskell bar the Wales game in the 6 nations, Wood is good but he has strengths and weaknesses. Clark is unproven at international level and I don't think he's got the attributes to excel at that level. Certainly don't think he's got nearly as much potential as someone like Burgess or Itoje.

The chief architect of the failure against France was of course Lancaster.