England's RWC Preparations

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Original thread about to explode

https://www.606v2.com/t59064-englands-50-man-training-squad-for-rwc

If we go along those lines he only sees Wood, Croft and Haskell as an option ever. We were talking of limited options at 6 vs strength at lock. Some of those locks only got a chance at lock due to injury, we've seen a pretty consistent record for the back row but strength remains there.

You say Lancaster rates Itoje above those players as a 6; really? How do you know? I'd assume he's seen as a lock.

beshocked wrote:Already did Jimpy. I guess it's not in your nature to support my arguments even though I know you dislike Clark.

propdavid london what do you think of Webber? Seems strange that he couldn't get past Batty for Bath yet Lancaster obviously sees him as 2nd or 3rd choice for England.

Lancaster does like his big centres hence picking Burrell and Manu, Burgess obviously fits his idea of having a big battering ram though I wonder if he sees him as a 12 or 13.

You make it sound as if I'm in a minority of one.

no 7 & 1/2 why would you assume he sees him as a lock? Itoje started 6 in the big games for Sarries this season. Yes I know he moved to lock but I would say that he's competing at 6.

Yes they only got an opportunity due to injury but Lancaster likes to generally stick with players he's capped. That's why he hasn't dropped many players.  He obviously rates Attwood,Kruis and Haskell more as they are still there.

I guess you could argue it's tough to leapfrog players both at 6 and lock but because of those injuries in the 2nd row it means that there are more players to overtake - not just Parling,Lawes and Launchbury but now Kruis and Attwood. That's without including Kitchener and Slater who Tigers fans believe were unfairly overlooked.

Jimpy you are a minority of one when you say that you dislike Clark and don't want to see him play for England because he broke a Tigers' player arm but now you agree with his inclusion. Seems that you conveniently change your mind on Clark just to be on the different side of the argument to me.

Wray

No point trialling too much in the warm up games. Its about getting your 1st choice team drilled and ready to go.

The only "trial" I may consider is for positions we're short...ie Jamie George has had a great season...and offers substantial size over Youngs. You may want to give George a run out in that regards to see how he fairs.

As soon as the WC is over you start trialling the newbies - and there will be a load to check out.

Bambam I should add I mean Jackson Wray not Nigel Wray.... perhaps that's why you are laughing?

Wray is as good as Clark IMO. Wray is one of the most underrated backrowers in England IMO.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 why would you assume he sees him as a lock? Itoje started 6 in the big games for Sarries this season. Yes I know he moved to lock but I would say that he's competing at 6.

Yes they only got an opportunity due to injury but Lancaster likes to generally stick with players he's capped. That's why he hasn't dropped many players.  He obviously rates Attwood,Kruis and Haskell more as they are still there.

I guess you could argue it's tough to leapfrog players both at 6 and lock but because of those injuries in the 2nd row it means that there are more players to overtake - not just Parling,Lawes and Launchbury but now Kruis and Attwood. That's without including Kitchener and Slater who Tigers fans believe were unfairly overlooked.

Because he's come up through the ranks as a lock. He's been covering injuries at 6 at Sarries. Certainly don't think you can say whether he's jumped ahead of any of the players listed as he's frankly not been chosen as a 6 over any of those listed. I think come the 6 nations there'll be 4 locks battling it out: Lawes, launchbury, Slater and Itoje. Would offer pretty good options there.

If Tigers can get Dom Barrow injury free and firing then id add him to the "potential" list for next season as well...the lad is massive AND mobile and real quality.

no 7 & 1/2 he's not covering injuries at 6 because neither Wray or Brown were injured. Itoje was picked ahead of them.

Geordiefalcon Barrow needs to prove himself in the AP first. Not going to be easy establishing himself as a starter for Leicester.

Oh I agree...but it's his injuries that have held him back...he more than has the potential if he's kept fit.

I think Launchbury seriously needs to work on his lineout.

It'll be interesting to see who is ejected from the squad after the World Cup...I think theres a few players I can think of that would be out.

I'm sure they were both reported as injured towards the end of the season but fair enough. Neither are players I particularly rate (anymore in Browns case). And I still don't think you can say Itoje is above those others as he's never been picked above those others.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 why would you assume he sees him as a lock? Itoje started 6 in the big games for Sarries this season. Yes I know he moved to lock but I would say that he's competing at 6.

Yes they only got an opportunity due to injury but Lancaster likes to generally stick with players he's capped. That's why he hasn't dropped many players.  He obviously rates Attwood,Kruis and Haskell more as they are still there.

I guess you could argue it's tough to leapfrog players both at 6 and lock but because of those injuries in the 2nd row it means that there are more players to overtake - not just Parling,Lawes and Launchbury but now Kruis and Attwood. That's without including Kitchener and Slater who Tigers fans believe were unfairly overlooked.

Jimpy you are a minority of one when you say that you dislike Clark and don't want to see him play for England because he broke a Tigers' player arm but now you agree with his inclusion. Seems that you conveniently change your mind on Clark just to be on the different side of the argument to me.

Show me where, anywhere on this entire forum, where I've said I agree with his inclusion?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Launchbury seriously needs to work on his lineout.

The fact that England so rarely use him in the lineout drives the type of 6 we select. If we say that Lancaster's first choice 4/5/6/7 since the Lions tour (Parling was first choice before that) woudl be Launchbury, Lawes, Wood & Robshaw - then the main jumpers have been Lawes and Wood, while Robshaw is the secondary and Launchbury an intermittent option. Maybe it is to do with Hartley starting at hooker?


Launchbury shoudl be a decent jumper in the lineout so I am puzzled.

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Launchbury seriously needs to work on his lineout.

The fact that England so rarely use him in the lineout drives the type of 6 we select. If we say that Lancaster's first choice 4/5/6/7 since the Lions tour (Parling was first choice before that) woudl be Launchbury, Lawes, Wood & Robshaw - then the main jumpers have been Lawes and Wood, while Robshaw is the secondary and Launchbury an intermittent option. Maybe it is to do with Hartley starting at hooker?


Launchbury shoudl be a decent jumper in the lineout so I am puzzled.

BUt he's a good thrower and him and Launchbury should be familiar with each other now.

Its a puzzle, but in the long term...with so many options it could put his place at risk, unless Itoje starts at 6 (if Wood is deemed surplus to requirements) .

I'd also ask why out locks bar parling are pretty poor on collecting kick offs.

Do you think Lancaster wishes Parling was a few years younger in his prime?

Hi Beshocked - I think we seem to be lumped with Webber following Hartleys issues.
Youngs will be 1st choice...we know. Webber is backup, uless LCD and George are both tearing up trees in training - which I am sure I heard Rowntree saying something about LCD being very impressive!

I agree that it is strange that Webber cant start for Bath, I dont know if he has been nursing an injury or something. But his position isnt a given I hope for England. He needs to bring more to the table than just experience.

To others on this thread, I would love Itoje to be involved but I do think his time is post WC. Along with others that show great promise. The back row and 2nd row for England is going to be competative for a long time!

Hi Geordie....Building on your comment.
Who do we think will retire would or shouldnt be involved post WC?

Hartley - disciplin
Parling - age
Easter - age
Corbisiero - long term issues
Wigglesworth - better options
Cipriani - disciplin, better options
Attwood - better options
Clarke - Surely he cant be named in more squads

Add Webber to that list post WC

propdavid_london wrote:Hi Geordie....Building on your comment.
Who do we think will retire would or shouldnt be involved post WC?

Hartley - disciplin
Parling - age
Easter - age
Corbisiero - long term issues
Wigglesworth - better options
Cipriani - disciplin, better options
Attwood - better options
Clarke - Surely he cant be named in more squads

I would add:
Barritt (even though he'll be starting 12 for us this world cup. )
Haskell - Just way to inconsistent, better options coming through
Ashton - Been on the fringe for a while, and might find himself out for good.
Webber - Competition is much better

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd also ask why out locks bar parling are pretty poor on collecting kick offs.

That is down to the pods working correctly. Leicester (with Parling) have been atrocious at this facet for several years. Pretty much since first game of 2011/12 season.


Wish I could be here when Lancaster cuts his next tranche which may happen as early as Friday. However off to France for a internet free month with kids.

Have fun all

beshocked wrote:Bambam I should add I mean Jackson Wray not Nigel Wray.... perhaps that's why you are laughing?

Wray is as good as Clark IMO. Wray is one of the most underrated backrowers in England IMO.

I knew you meant Jackson .. and you're probably the only person on the board who'd think that Wray is as good as Clark

Jackson Wray is not as good as Callum Clark, let's draw a line under that one.

There is nothing wrong with Joe Launchburys line out catching.
Looking at the stats in 2014 6Ns ( he was injured in 2015), he took more than Chris Robshaw.

The future will be Joe, Courtney & Itoje at 4,5,6. I'd like to see Slater come through as I think he is a class act.

As for SB lets wait & see.


Ps I agree Clarke is better than Wray.

BamBam wrote:

beshocked wrote:Bambam I should add I mean Jackson Wray not Nigel Wray.... perhaps that's why you are laughing?

Wray is as good as Clark IMO. Wray is one of the most underrated backrowers in England IMO.

I knew you meant Jackson .. and you're probably the only person on the board who'd think that Wray is as good as Clark

Don't know why you think it's laughable. Wray is a backrower who is comparable to Clark. If I said that Wray was as good as Wood or Robshaw or even Haskell you could laugh but I didn't.

Both Wray and Clark are backrowers who are similar ages though Wray is a little younger, have gone through the England U20s but haven't had international recognition, both are the same build as both are a similar weight (according to wikipedia), both have played quite a few games for two of the top clubs in the AP - both are good club players but haven't proven themselves at a higher level. Both can cover more than one backrow position. Both have been part of an AP winning team.

I would certainly say they have more in common than you might think.

Jimpy you did say Boom which I thought was your way of agreeing with well past it's argument.

Sgt Pooly I completely disagree.

Well I was originally laughing at the thought of Wray being remotely in line for the England shirt. I think you mentioned him in a list of players who had been overlooked.

Technically I suppose he has been overlooked, in that he is a rugby player who qualifies for England. By that standard, I reckon I've been overlooked too, I played a bit of flanker and am definitely qualified for England

I can't even be bothered to debate Wray vs Clark, its one of your best yet

propdavid_london wrote:Hi Geordie....Building on your comment.
Who do we think will retire would or shouldnt be involved post WC?

Hartley - disciplin
Parling - age
Easter - age
Corbisiero - long term issues
Wigglesworth - better options
Cipriani - disciplin, better options
Attwood - better options
Clarke - Surely he cant be named in more squads

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I would add:
Barritt (even though he'll be starting 12 for us this world cup. )
Haskell - Just way to inconsistent, better options coming through
Ashton - Been on the fringe for a while, and might find himself out for good.
Webber - Competition is much better

Most of those I agree with.  Although we may want to be careful about discarding some the options at no.9 too quickly.  Of the incumbents, Dickson and Wigglesworth are both north of 30 and either may decide to go for a pension in France.  Care’s form is in the toilet (as was Youngs’ in the not too distant past).  Looking past the next bend in the road, who is ready to step up if we lose the old guard to progress and the front runners to injury?  I can see a scrum half crisis beckoning in around 2017/18 if things aren’t managed carefully.  Who have we got that is young and hungry who can step up behind Youngs and Care?  Dan Robson? Joe Simpson? Stuart Townsend?  All have question marks

Reckon Hartley will head off to France after his contract with Saints is up in 2017, so his long term future can probably called into question from that score too.

Reckon Corbisero will be okay, it seems *touch Tom Wood* that the troublesome knee injuries are behind him and at 26 he shouldn’t have suffered the burnout that somebody like Marler (who I believe is really overworked at times) might suffer from.  I am more optimistic about seeing him play into his 30s now than I was and he should see another World Cup after this.  The question as to whether he will be better than Marler or Mako remains though.  Can he scale the heights again?  I hope so.

Bambam comparing a good club player to a good club player - nothing wrong with that.

Wray has played over 20 AP games this season for Saracens who are AP champions.

Played in 6 of the ERCC games this season.

You kind of prove the point how underrated Wray is though. Comparing his rugby playing ability to yours is very insulting.

Don't debate if you want - just shows your ignorance.

Although none of the wingers will be retiring, bar Strettle kind of, who's the next youngsters we should be looking out for. There's a right winger at newcastle who's name escapes me.

beshocked wrote:Bambam comparing a good club player to a good club player - nothing wrong with that.

Wray has played over 20 AP games this season for Saracens who are AP champions.

Played in 6 of the ERCC games this season.

You kind of prove the point how underrated Wray is though. Comparing his rugby playing ability to yours is very insulting.

Don't debate if you want - just shows your ignorance.

I'm not comparing my ability to his, I know i'm not even 10% of the player he is.

But if he's been "overlooked" for the England shirt while being at best 10th in line, I'm going to stick with my belief that I've been overlooked while being at best 100,000th in line

Isn't that Zac Kibirige?

Perhaps Nathan Earle might make a breakthrough at Saracens with the departure of Strettle.

Bambam I do think it's unfair he's not even on the radar when someone like Clark is being picked.

Maybe I am wrong - maybe Clark is a world class backrower in the making....don't see it personally but we'll see.

I do think Wray is overlooked yes - certainly doesn't get mentioned nearly as much as the likes of Fearns,Garvey,Ewers etc. Not saying he should be in the England squad but I don't think Clark should be either.

To be honest I think most of these guys are on a similar level. Someone like Itoje stands out because he's pretty much on par with all these guys and he's only 20.

Wood and Robshaw are on another level to these guys. Haskell is below these two but above the rest because at least he has some international experience and does occasionally put in a good performance or two.

The way I see the pecking order -

Robshaw and Wood,Billy,Morgan - good international player
Haskell,Easter - mediocre international player
Clark,Fearns,Garvey,Fearns,Ksevic,Wray,Itoje,Ewers,Dickinson - good club players

Not much between the good club players to properly separate them.

BamBam wrote:

beshocked wrote:Bambam comparing a good club player to a good club player - nothing wrong with that.

Wray has played over 20 AP games this season for Saracens who are AP champions.

Played in 6 of the ERCC games this season.

You kind of prove the point how underrated Wray is though. Comparing his rugby playing ability to yours is very insulting.

Don't debate if you want - just shows your ignorance.

I'm not comparing my ability to his, I know i'm not even 10% of the player he is.

But if he's been "overlooked" for the England shirt while being at best 10th in line, I'm going to stick with my belief that I've been overlooked while being at best 100,000th in line

Wray has quite clearly been overlooked, he plays for Saracens. He is also under-hyped (or something).

No 7&1/2 wrote:Although none of the wingers will be retiring, bar Strettle kind of, who's the next youngsters we should be looking out for. There's a right winger at newcastle who's name escapes me.

Kibirige?

There's also Earle at Sarries, and I like the look of Perkins at Sarries too, but far too early for him

beshocked wrote:Isn't that Zac Kibirige?

Perhaps Nathan Earle might make a breakthrough at Saracens with the departure of Strettle.

Yes ta think that's him! How far away is he from making an impression, the lad at Sarries?

Just because they're both "AP players" doesn't mean they're at the same level Beshocked.

You only have to watch them to see Clark is a better player by a fair bit imo.

Sometimes your Sarries bias gets a bit OTT, try and stay a little objective now and again.

Clark also won player of the year (supporters and players) and multiple player of the months, did Wray?

Earle broke his leg last year. It'll be interesting to see how he comes back as he one of the best wingers I've seen at U20 level for England.

Scottrf Wray did win man of the match vs Bath.

Of course Nathan Earle will need to step up to AP - the world cup period could be a perfect opportunity, especially if Ashton is away too.

Jimpy not every player is underhyped. Wray just happens to be. Gill is IMO not a good player yet he got picked again and again. Hargreaves is okay but not brilliant. Hamilton has been quite mediocre. Bosch hasn't been as good as I hoped at 13 but his 50 metre kick to beat Racing Metro was excellent.

Man of the match doesn't quite compare to two player of the year trophies and 3 player of the months though?

Kibirige had a horrific injury leg and ankle breaks. He was out all of last season. But he is back to full fitness etc, and apparently showing very well in training. We should see quite a bit of him this season coming.

Good to hear GF. Remember seeing him shine for England U20s (I think) then haven't really heard about him which is now explained.

Without being disrespectful Wray is an average Prem player who shouldn't be considered for England.

A whole 1 man of the match awards!!!

Someone better fire Stewie and bring in someone who knows what they're doing, imagine not picking a player who picked up a man of the match award over someone you've evaluated and had in your squads for years!

BamBam wrote:A whole 1 man of the match awards!!!

Someone better fire Stewie and bring in someone who knows what they're doing, imagine not picking a player who picked up a man of the match award over someone you've evaluated and had in your squads for years!

The question is...why has he been in the squad...when Lancaster has never played him??

Clarks been around as the cover beyong the bench. He's good but not better than Croft, Wood, Haskell, Johnson were at various times.

Probably because Wood/Haskell/Croft etc were seen as better players in training.

Haven't got a problem with Clark not having played because we haven't really had an injury epidemic on the flanks like we have in other positions, Robshaw has been a constant and at least one of the 3 above has been fit at all times

If we had a crisis like we did with lock in the 6N, or centres as we so often seemed to, then we'd probably have seen him play

Or just see what 7.5 said

no 7 & 1/2 so he's just an average player who fortunately plays for one of the best sides in the league? Surely if he was average he wouldn't keep his spot?

Geordiefalcon you make a good point. Why hasn't Clark been played?

Even the best sides in the league need journeymen to keep ploughing on when the superstars are off playing internationals

Even sides that don't like playing to a salary cap can't pay enough to have 2 international quality XVs to put out

I think if we're naming the best 6s in the league he'd be down towards the middle of the pack so yes in this context he's an average 6 and as Bam Bam says there's a bit of balance with key players and squad members.

Middle of the pack is probably pushing it. From each Prem side, a player who I would rate better as a 6 than Jackson bloody Wray

Bath - Burgess, Garvey
Saints - Wood, Clark
Falcons - Wilson (very underrated for me)
Quins - Clifford
Exeter - Ewers
Sale - Think Braid plays 6? If so, then definitely him
Tigers - Croft (when fit), Slater
Gloucester - Moriarty
Wasps - Haskell, Johnson
Irish - Treviranus has a very good case
Welsh - fair enough

Just wanted to set out the context of which I used average ie in the prem and not overall, as even the worst prem player is still quite handy at rugby!