England's RWC Preparations

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Original thread about to explode

https://www.606v2.com/t59064-englands-50-man-training-squad-for-rwc

beshocked wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Del Boy wrote:This time next year we'll be millionaires

Sadly we need it this year as that is when the WC is.

Every year there will be a string of latest hot things. Because they are new (and unproven) they will be talked up to the rafters. Then should they turn out not to be world beaters we will vent our frustrations on the player, rather than our own absurd expectations. For some the hype becomes so great that they need to become all time greats just to live up to it.

Yes there are the latest hot things but quite a few of those hot things as you call them have gone on to play for England.

I have been talking about Itoje because I think he is different from the others. He's been successful as U20s winning captain, been successful as LV Cup captain.  He's younger than the other current prospects yet he's got an AP title under his belt as a starter. For a 20 year old that's pretty impressive. I think that does make him stand out from the other prospects.

People got excited when the likes of B.Youngs,Cole and Manu came on the scene. I am feeling that way about Itoje. Sure he's got a lot to prove but he's only 20. He should get better. He's also got skills and physique that means it should be easier for him to make the transition to international level IMO.

England need to back the right players if they want to be aspire to be the best in the world again.


I have criticised Nowell and think Lancaster threw away with the 6 nations against France but his picking of Nowell has paid dividends now.

Nowell has developed into a much more complete player. Short term failure, long term success so far.

Shame that Lancaster hasn't done the same in the backrow selections though. There's not the same risk playing a youngster in a rugby world cup warm up compared to having your first cap against France away in the 6 nations.

Baffled why he's not playing someone like Burgess or Itoje as a 6. Disappointing.

I know what you're saying but I can't agree that he was a failure. He was inexperienced at the time but has gone on to prove that he wasn't a failure - a failure would hopefully not still be part of the team?

In the grand scheme of things there's always a risk players won't perform to their ability if they are on debut or have 50 caps. Personally I would ahve had Burgess in the squad as a 6 to be used from the bench as I think he's a player who could have had a real impact. If he doesn't make it I'd hope he gets into the 6 nations squad rather than having to wait for a regular test or a game against the Baa Baas.

I notice that Hansen has thrown in a lad at 10 for a debut away to SA. He wants to see how he deals with it.

To be fair, Sopoaga (10 starting for NZ) has played Super Rugby for a few years and been through the age group sides

I'm all for if you think they're ready give them the chance.

Jimpy there is a time and a place to start a youngster. Starting away to France is not a good time at all. He failed on the day - wasn't the only player but you have to acknowledge it was not a good debut.

He failed vs France. His first touch vs France was a knock on which led to a try for a France. 2nd try - Goode and Nowell - poor communication between the two which led to another try for France.

Nowell should have never been put in that situation by Lancaster. It's unfair to start someone in their first international against France away.

I know most of you think Nowell had a great debut vs France but I don't. His inexperience in that first game showed.

His 6 nations after that first match was okay - he wasn't particularly poor then neither was he particularly good.

Lancaster stuck with him - which has paid dividends now.

beshocked wrote:Jimpy there is a time and a place to start a youngster. Starting away to France is not a good time at all. He failed on the day - wasn't the only player but you have to acknowledge it was not a good debut.

He failed vs France. His first touch vs France was a knock on which led to a try for a France.  2nd try - Goode and Nowell - poor communication between the two which led to another try for France.

Nowell should have never been put in that situation by Lancaster. It's unfair to start someone in their first international against France away.

I know most of you think Nowell had a great debut vs France but I don't. His inexperience in that first game showed.

His 6 nations after that first match was okay - he wasn't particularly poor then neither was he particularly good.

Lancaster stuck with him - which has paid dividends now.

This is pedantry in the extreme in order to attempt to prove a point which clearly hasn't held true.

Very few players making their international debuts have faultless performances, so were they all failures too? You can't say it of any of them , Nowell included, because ostensibly, he's still playing and has improved - ipso faco, he aint a failure, nor was he then.

Jimpy failing in one match does not mean that a player will fail in every match.

Nowell has obviously improved - I am commending him on that. He managed to put a very poor debut behind him and this season he had a very good 6 nations.

Doesn't change that it was a poor debut though.

Some international debuts are failures yes. Doesn't mean the player will continue to play poorly. Lancaster stuck with Nowell and Nowell has repaid that loyalty.

Sometimes established players have poor tournaments too - like Hartley this year.

Would you be against Itoje being given a debut this 6Ns beshocked? You've stated we should be getting a grand slam is there too much risk assocaited with a newby?

I don't think Burgess is good enough to play at 6 and certainly not at centre, bizarre call from SL.

Itoje looks a talent but again I don't think he's ready, there's better players currently and you go to a WC with your best players not potential.

Burgess as a centre....crazy.

Depends what game no 7 & 1/2.

Against weaker sides like Italy and Scotland starting a new player is much less risky.

Would want to avoid starting a new player against France,Ireland or Wales if possible.

Though as I have said before the ideal time to play Itoje would have been in these RWC warm ups as they are just that - warm ups. These kind of matches are where new players can be tried out without any important trophies on the line.

Sgt Pooly if you don't play Itoje in ideal matches like this then when do you?

Wait till an important GS game like vs France away or vs Ireland/Wales?

Do you honestly think Clark is a better player than Itoje?

Plus you need to take into account potential. With experience, youngsters can improve. Warm up games give vital international experience without the must win pressure.

But given the fact he hasn't been given the chance you'd be happy for him to be given a debut against Scotland or Italy even given they are must win games?

You give him a chance post WC Beshocked as he isn't ready now, he's just not good enough imo.

I think Clark is better than Itoje and he can play 6/7 to a good standard. I don't see how potential comes into it, we need our best players at the WC.

no 7 & 1/2 yes. Scotland and Italy are not strong teams. England should be able to beat them even without a full strength side.

Sgt Pooly will Itoje ever be ready in your eyes? What more does Itoje need to do?

You don't know if Itoje is ready till you try him. You've been criticizing Itoje for weeks - I said watch and see what Itoje would do - Itoje has done well so far.

Potential comes into it because I think that he would get better in the months leading up to the world cup - anyway it matters not - Lancaster has made his mind clear.

Clark can play 6/7 to a good standard at international level? Based on what exactly? He's got no international experience. Clark is a competent club operator but there is no guarantee he'll make the step up to international level. He's 26 and he's not yet made the jump to international level - why?

You talk about best players - is Clark really one of the best we have? Do you honestly feel confident about him? Personally I don't.

If Clark was as good as you make out there would be more excitement and buzz around his selection.

As it I don't think most people are particularly excited by the inclusion of Clark.

I'm not really fussed if people feel excited about Clark or not, he's better than Itoje CURRENTLY.

Itoje probably will be ready but he's not good enough now imo, I don't understand why this winds you up. You pick your best players for a WC, you can't carry players.

Just because Itoje has won an AP title doesn't make him ready for England. Pretty sure Erinle won 2 x HC and would have never been ready.

I've not critised Itoje, I've just said he's not ready yet.

The Warm games are assuredly not designed for giving players with potential a match if you have no intention oif taking them to the WC. they should be purely about getting the squad into the best place possible for the first real game.


As to Burgess, I see Mike Ford has stated he will be a 6 next season and he wishes he was at pre-season as then he would be working on lineout stuff with the Bath boys. We should remember that Burgess has had no pre-season time in rugby and has been learning on the job. He has been good in his matches there for Bath - but as with Itoje is still a case of potential.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 yes. Scotland and Italy are not strong teams. England should be able to beat them even without a full strength side.

Sgt Pooly will Itoje ever be ready in your eyes? What more does Itoje need to do?

You don't know if Itoje is ready till you try him. You've been criticizing Itoje for weeks - I said watch and see what Itoje would do - Itoje has done well so far.

Potential comes into it because I think that he would get better in the months leading up to the world cup - anyway it matters not - Lancaster has made his mind clear.

Clark can play 6/7 to a good standard at international level? Based on what exactly? He's got no international experience. Clark is a competent club operator but there is no guarantee he'll make the step up to international level.  He's 26 and he's not yet made the jump to international level - why?

You talk about best players - is Clark really one of the best we have? Do you honestly feel confident about him? Personally I don't.

If Clark was as good as you make out there would be more excitement and buzz around his selection.

As it I don't think  most people are particularly excited by the inclusion of Clark.

Away to Scotland not an easy ride a lot of times. I think he will be pushing by then probably for that bench spot. i d like to think even if he does make a mistake in a draw or defeat he doesn t get it in the neck, or lancaster for giving him a chance.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 yes. Scotland and Italy are not strong teams. England should be able to beat them even without a full strength side.

Sgt Pooly will Itoje ever be ready in your eyes? What more does Itoje need to do?

You don't know if Itoje is ready till you try him. You've been criticizing Itoje for weeks - I said watch and see what Itoje would do - Itoje has done well so far.

Potential comes into it because I think that he would get better in the months leading up to the world cup - anyway it matters not - Lancaster has made his mind clear.

Clark can play 6/7 to a good standard at international level? Based on what exactly? He's got no international experience. Clark is a competent club operator but there is no guarantee he'll make the step up to international level.  He's 26 and he's not yet made the jump to international level - why?

You talk about best players - is Clark really one of the best we have? Do you honestly feel confident about him? Personally I don't.

If Clark was as good as you make out there would be more excitement and buzz around his selection.

As it I don't think  most people are particularly excited by the inclusion of Clark.

He hasn't made the jump to international standard? By what measure, not capped? Neither is Itoje. Clark has gone through the age groups for England as well and is a Saxon. You also comment in later posts about Itoje being part of a Championship winning side, you have a short memory think back a season.

Clark was the youngest forward ever to play for Leeds, captained Saints in their LV cup final against Sarries at 21. Has played in both the AP final and a HC final and is probably over the last few years the best tackler in the AP. Itoje may surpass him, who knows, but Clark currently has more experience, a proven track record at a high level and suits the England game plan far better than Itoje due to his work rate, breakdown skills and all round game. He also has played a fair bit as a lock, although I think he is a bit lightweight for that.

There is no buzz about Itoje's exclusion or inclusion other than what you are making, you are just about his only supporter for inclusion in the 45 man squad.

Very few are excited by his inclusion as few expect him to make the final cut. I would be very surprised if the majority of the non partisan members were in favour of Itoje's inclusion after one year playing in the AP over a player that has gone through the same age group sides, has vastly more experience at all levels and has consistently been part of the England squad for a few years.

The warm up games pre RWC are not about seeing if players can play at that level, they are about combinations and seeing who can gel with who, especially with our fragmented backline. It might be interesting for example to see if Care can play with Ford; two very individual players. If it worked it could be dynamite, both are certainties for the final squad but they have never been tried as a combo. They would certainly keep the opposition defence very close to the break down which could make a lot of room for Joseph to exploit. Equally it could be a complete disaster, we will never know until it is tried.

Totally agree with that Well-past-it

Clark has been performing well for Saints for several seasons and has been in and around the England EPS since Lancaster took over.

Itoje has one senior season to.his name - admitedly a good one - and a JRWC. And a lot of hype from Stuart Barnes.

They have precisely the same level of senior international experience, ie none, and have both been watched closely by the coaching staff for several years.

I don't set any store by how old a player is when they break onto the international scene. It's determined as much by competition and coaching preference as the player himself. Robshaw didn't become an England regular until his mid 20s, because Johnno remained loyal to Moody. Easter wasn't even playing professional rugby at 26, and played in an RWC final at 28. Back was ”too small“ for international rugby and was 27 before he was regularly picked.

Itoje is clearly part of the future, form and fitness permitting. But it would be stupid for the coaches to tey him out in the warm up games if they don't expect him to make the final squad.

To be honest, I am not sure if Clark will make the cut either. Back row positions are hotly contested. But to argue that one is better than the other based on what we as fans can see is clearly based on incomplete data. Fir now, the coaches see Clark as a better bet than Itoje or Burgess, and we don't really have a basis to argue.

Can we now please shut up about him? He's not going unless there are injuries, and there's not much more to say.

So squad fly back from Denver tomorrow night and have a week off, before re-convening at Pennyhill Park.

England may call up some extra players to see how they are doing (guys who have been injured like Easter, foden, Simpson & Croft) then plan to cut the squad by the end of that week by about 9 people.

This will mean, correctly in my view, that the warm up games will be used merely to fine-tune the squad and sort out combinations and get the team ready for the start of RWC.

Poorfour wrote:Clark has been performing well for Saints for several seasons and has been in and around the England EPS since Lancaster took over.

Itoje has one senior season to.his name - admitedly a good one - and a JRWC. And a lot of hype from Stuart Barnes.

They have precisely the same level of senior international experience, ie none, and have both been watched closely by the coaching staff for several years.

I don't set any store by how old a player is when they break onto the international scene. It's determined as much by competition and coaching preference as the player himself. Robshaw didn't become an England regular until his mid 20s, because Johnno remained loyal to Moody. Easter wasn't even playing professional rugby at 26, and played in an RWC final at 28. Back was ”too small“ for international rugby and was 27 before he was regularly picked.

Itoje is clearly part of the future, form and fitness permitting. But it would be stupid for the coaches to tey him out in the warm up games if they don't expect him to make the final squad.

To be honest, I am not sure if Clark will make the cut either. Back row positions are hotly contested. But to argue that one is better than the other based on what we as fans can see is clearly based on incomplete data. Fir now, the coaches see Clark as a better bet than Itoje or Burgess, and we don't really have a basis to argue.

Can we now please shut up about him? He's not going unless there are injuries, and there's not much more to say.

That's a bit strong about Clark.  He has acquitted himself very well against the best players in the NH in virtually every big match he has played over the past few years.  Does all the little things necessary for a team to be successful.  And Saints have been successful, in part due to his play.  

Will he make the cut?  Hard to say - there are a lot of back row options.  But could he cut it at that level and help England win if called upon?  I believe so.

Sorry. The last sentence was about Itoje, who's already been cut. Should have made that clearer.

I still think Clark's chances are fairly slim. It would be a big call to include a player untried at international level in a world cup squad, and my guess is that it would probably need both Croft and Easter to be injured for Clark to have a serious chance.

Poorfour wrote:Sorry. The last sentence was about Itoje, who's already been cut. Should have made that clearer.

I still think Clark's chances are fairly slim. It would be a big call to include a player untried at international level in a world cup squad, and my guess is that it would probably need both Croft and Easter to be injured for Clark to have a serious chance.

Fair enough. And you are probably right. Though I think the ABs handed out 4 new caps last week or this week...........

I always worry about players with big injuries. it would be remarkable for Croft to be back at international level after his horrible injury run. Easter has a bad back, and can be dodgy pending how bad the injury might be. I suppose Croft would be cover at 6 and second row. Easter would be for 8 and second row. Clark would covers 6 and 7.

Problem for Clark is much more down to how many back rowers they choose to take. Whether we agree or not, fitness permitting, Ronshaw, Wood, Haskell, billyV and Morgan are probably nailed on. They may well taKe just 5.

Your'e probably right mate. it is a small roster for the RWC. I suppose I was thinking Haskell might be on the bubble, so to speak. After the Wales match in the 6 Nations, he was much less effective.

Haskell's spot is most at risk - but he will probably be in the final squad. We shall see who they drop from the squad in a week's time when the whittle it down.

I would expect Lancaster to chose at least Morgan, Vunipola, Robshaw and Wood (unless there are injuries).  That means Clark et al will be competing against Haskell and since Haskell played in the Six Nations, he must be considered the incumbent and has the experience.  Tough for any of the others to break in.

I still think it is too soon for Itoje, maybe better to wait after the World cup.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 yes. Scotland and Italy are not strong teams. England should be able to beat them even without a full strength side.

Sgt Pooly will Itoje ever be ready in your eyes? What more does Itoje need to do?

You don't know if Itoje is ready till you try him. You've been criticizing Itoje for weeks - I said watch and see what Itoje would do - Itoje has done well so far.

Potential comes into it because I think that he would get better in the months leading up to the world cup - anyway it matters not - Lancaster has made his mind clear.

Clark can play 6/7 to a good standard at international level? Based on what exactly? He's got no international experience. Clark is a competent club operator but there is no guarantee he'll make the step up to international level.  He's 26 and he's not yet made the jump to international level - why?

You talk about best players - is Clark really one of the best we have? Do you honestly feel confident about him? Personally I don't.

If Clark was as good as you make out there would be more excitement and buzz around his selection.

As it I don't think  most people are particularly excited by the inclusion of Clark.

He hasn't made the jump to international standard? By what measure, not capped? Neither is Itoje. Clark has gone through the age groups for England as well and is a Saxon. You also comment in later posts about Itoje being part of a Championship winning side, you have a short memory think back a season.

Clark was the youngest forward ever to play for Leeds, captained Saints in their LV cup final against Sarries at 21. Has played in both the AP final and a HC final and is probably over the last few years the best tackler in the AP. Itoje may surpass him, who knows, but Clark currently has more experience, a proven track record at a high level and suits the England game plan far better than Itoje due to his work rate, breakdown skills  and all round game. He also has played a fair bit as a lock, although I think he is a bit lightweight for that.

There is no buzz about Itoje's exclusion or inclusion other than what you are making, you are just about his only supporter for inclusion in the 45 man squad.

Very few are excited by his inclusion as few expect him to make the final cut. I would be very surprised if the majority of the non partisan members were in favour of Itoje's inclusion after one year playing in the AP over a player that has gone through the same age group sides, has vastly more experience at all levels and has consistently been part of the England squad for a few years.

The warm up games pre RWC are not about seeing if players can play at that level, they are about combinations and seeing who can gel with who, especially with our fragmented backline. It might be interesting for example to see if Care can play with Ford; two very individual players. If it worked it could be dynamite, both are certainties for the final squad but they have never been tried as a combo. They would certainly keep the opposition defence very close to the break down which could make a lot of room for Joseph to exploit. Equally it could be a complete disaster, we will never know until it is tried.

BOOM!

Boom?

I would have Burgess over Haskell at 6. Haskell is more experienced but surely now have to say...he's just too inconsistent. On his day he's very good indeed...but that's one in 5/6 games.
But Burgess should simply not go as a centre.

Clark is a real dog at the breakdown, works his socks off and has a real abrasive side to his game. That's the type of forward Lancaster likes and too be honest I have no issues with him being in the squad. My only issue remains with Lancaster....why has he not given Clark some genuine game time out the in the AI's, 6n , summer games???

I think I would have taken Itoje...but at the expense of who is the question.

I like the fact Lancaster plays a very consistent team selection. BUt I just think at times he's a little too consistent. There are times when a little tweak here or there would let you see a new player (say Clark in place of Tom Wood or Haskell in the 6n) in a settled team. He misses too many opportunities like that.

He's pretty consistent but I would generally go the same way given where the team was when he took over. It needed a bit of a overhaul and then for the new players to be given experience. It's led to players (generally) given the chance to bed into the team if they've made a positive impression. With the relatively low amount of caps it's smart that the players chosen play as much as possible. You could argue over the players he's chosen to give that experience to but overall an understandable philosophy for me.

Oh I totally agree with what he's done 7.5

It needed to be done . My argument is just that there have been odd opportunities just to test a few players in settled sides. Ie in the years 6n with Wood injured, Haskell failing to shine after the Wales game....why not give Clark a run out. See what he can do.
Too me its not a risk as he's a proven European standard player who was performing well...and yet still needed to have the "tick" put by his name to say if he can handle this level or not.

These are little opportunities I think Lancaster has missed at times.

Yeah, there's a few players I would have given more games to. Kvesic being one of the main ones but I think it's obvious Wood would swap to 7 and Haskell comes in. A few others I just don't agree with ie Burgess is a very ordinary centre!

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 yes. Scotland and Italy are not strong teams. England should be able to beat them even without a full strength side.

Sgt Pooly will Itoje ever be ready in your eyes? What more does Itoje need to do?

You don't know if Itoje is ready till you try him. You've been criticizing Itoje for weeks - I said watch and see what Itoje would do - Itoje has done well so far.

Potential comes into it because I think that he would get better in the months leading up to the world cup - anyway it matters not - Lancaster has made his mind clear.

Clark can play 6/7 to a good standard at international level? Based on what exactly? He's got no international experience. Clark is a competent club operator but there is no guarantee he'll make the step up to international level.  He's 26 and he's not yet made the jump to international level - why?

You talk about best players - is Clark really one of the best we have? Do you honestly feel confident about him? Personally I don't.

If Clark was as good as you make out there would be more excitement and buzz around his selection.

As it I don't think  most people are particularly excited by the inclusion of Clark.

He hasn't made the jump to international standard? By what measure, not capped? Neither is Itoje. Clark has gone through the age groups for England as well and is a Saxon. You also comment in later posts about Itoje being part of a Championship winning side, you have a short memory think back a season.

Clark was the youngest forward ever to play for Leeds, captained Saints in their LV cup final against Sarries at 21. Has played in both the AP final and a HC final and is probably over the last few years the best tackler in the AP. Itoje may surpass him, who knows, but Clark currently has more experience, a proven track record at a high level and suits the England game plan far better than Itoje due to his work rate, breakdown skills  and all round game. He also has played a fair bit as a lock, although I think he is a bit lightweight for that.

There is no buzz about Itoje's exclusion or inclusion other than what you are making, you are just about his only supporter for inclusion in the 45 man squad.

Very few are excited by his inclusion as few expect him to make the final cut. I would be very surprised if the majority of the non partisan members were in favour of Itoje's inclusion after one year playing in the AP over a player that has gone through the same age group sides, has vastly more experience at all levels and has consistently been part of the England squad for a few years.

The warm up games pre RWC are not about seeing if players can play at that level, they are about combinations and seeing who can gel with who, especially with our fragmented backline. It might be interesting for example to see if Care can play with Ford; two very individual players. If it worked it could be dynamite, both are certainties for the final squad but they have never been tried as a combo. They would certainly keep the opposition defence very close to the break down which could make a lot of room for Joseph to exploit. Equally it could be a complete disaster, we will never know until it is tried.

Clark was U20s in 2008 yet he's not made the transition to international level yet. Itoje is a 20 year old - he has not had 7 years to make it to that level! Clark won the championship as a 25 year old, Itoje as a 20 year old.

Does anyone really think that Clark has been unfairly overlooked?

Would you say that Clark has improved since Saints won the Championship? Clark was part of a Saints side who did well to top the league but were dispatched at home by Saracens in the AP semis and destroyed by Racing Metro and Clermont in the European Champions Cup.

I think Clark is a good club player but I don't think he's the 3rd best 6 option for England. I don't think he's ever going to scare opposition or really ask enough questions at international level.

Best tackler in the AP is Burger, not Clark IMO. You only needed to see Saints vs Saracens in the AP semi to see Burger's tackling masterclass.

You say Clark has a proven track record at a high level - high club level yes but not at international level though.

You say Itoje doesn't suit England - on the contrary I think his skills would be ideal. He's bigger and more powerful than Clark already, as for the breakdown and tackling, he's getting better all the time, he's also athletic and adds a lineout option.

You say that Clark has been part of the England squad but he's never been rated good enough to start or even be on the bench.

Warm ups are an ideal opportunity to try out players.

You don't think Wales are going to try Tomas Francis for example? England might have well missed a trick by allowing him to slip through the net.

Surely there is a huge clamour to try out Slade for England?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, there's a few players I would have given more games to. Kvesic being one of the main ones but I think it's obvious Wood would swap to 7 and Haskell comes in. A few others I just don't agree with ie Burgess is a very ordinary centre!

Again, I totally agree. He's built a strong settled side, and the best time to test a few fringe players is in a strong settled side. So without mass changes...he could have given Robshaw a rest and given Kvesic a run out.

This is something the AB's do well.

It doesn't unsettle the team because its not mass changes, its changing one player here or there (at the appropriate times) to evaluate their standards...

I'm not convinved Burger is the pinacle of tackling beshocked, he uses his head/face to stop people far too often!

You say Clark has a proven track record at a high level - high club level yes but not at international level though.

Would you not say playing at a level where your team regularly finishes in the last few rounds of the HC is a decent indicator of your level? I would.

But as I said before, Lancaster has missed opportunities to try players like these to see if they are good enough or not.

Once England had lost to Ireland and could not win a Grand Slam, that was the time for Lancaster to try a few things for the World Cup.  

Winning the championship (which we did not) was really second prize. In prospect we should beat Scotland at Twickenham and if we had not, then it would have been really our fault.

Then was the time to have tried things, but not much changed.  For many of Lancaster's good points, sometimes he seems slow take a risk or grasp an opportunity.

no 7 & 1/2 true he does use that tactic quite often but it's quite effective. He does have that ability to rock a team very hard.

Geordiefalcon I just don't think Clark has really made a compelling statement as an option that will change England's fortunes. I am not saying he's a bad player I just am not sure he's what England should be looking for to get to the top.

It goes back to the argument - which players do you give experience to, which do you think will make it to the top of the international game.

Spot on with that last point beshocked but there's the question of how to give experience as well. I'm guessing that England will see Itoje initially as the guy who could provide bench cover for lock and 6 and that'll come in the 6Ns. Longer term where does he fit, probably lock for me. Question then is is it worth it to integrate him to 6 or lock. Or do we say he's a bit of both. Is he good enough to nail down either position as a specialist above other options.

The point is Clark is an identikit Lancaster style player. He's in every squad, yet has never been tried.

I just don't understand that principle from Lancaster?

no 7 & 1/2 perhaps Lancaster feels it is better for Itoje to improve his lineout abilities at Saracens and work in pre season.

I just feel that England are pretty well stocked at lock with Lawes,Launchbury,Parling,Kruis and Attwood, whereas I feel the 6 shirt is more open.

Itoje would be a smaller lock but a big 6.

Lancaster quite clearly likes the 6 who can work at the lineout - that's what his first choice Wood does because England don't have a 8 in the lineout.

If possible I think it's preferable to have 3 jumpers - 2 locks and 1 backrower.

Need to give more options to the hookers. Especially Youngs who sometimes has the tendency to miss his jumpers at international level. Webber isn't exactly famed as a thrower either, George and LCD are unproven at international level.

Of course Itoje in the RWC squad would have been a long shot but if you don't give the player the opportunity you don't know what he can do. People say he's not ready - well you wouldn't know unless you tried him.

Geordiefalcon I agree. Lancaster is a big Clark fan but you're right - he hasn't started him. Baffling.

I kind of agree but I think he could quickly move up that list of locks (and Slater should be in there too), 6 may be more open but there's still the list Wood, even robshaw, Haskell, Burgess, Ewers, Clark, maybe Garvey, maybe even Clifford. Wood is still the standout for me but there's a place up for grabs in the back row. Suppose you could even say Hughes would be offering more options in the back row for jumpers.

I think Itoje if picked would have been fine, wouldn't look out of place. There's a few better at the moment though. That choice of getting a raw player who would do fine and benefit a lot lonegr term. Do you risk that at a WC especially if your job is on the line?

No 7 & 1/2 Lancaster has a contract till 2017 I believe? To terminate that would cost the RFU a lot.

Garvey,Clifford and Ewers aren't on Lancaster's radar apparently (well Garvey certainly isn't).

Burgess is not seen as a 6 by Lancaster.

Robshaw is clear 7 at the moment.

Itoje offers something different to all these players.


On a side note how would you guys utilise the warm ups as it seems as trying new players is not what you want to see?

Do you think that LCD,George or Webber should start in one game or just start with Youngs in each match?

What's the point of Burgess in the centres if Lancaster isn't planning of starting him in a warm up?

Would you utilise Danny Cipriani? Use Goode at full back or try Watson or Nowell there?

Start Corbisiero or Mullan at LH?

What tinkering would you do?

Lets see who gets cut from the squad at the end of this week before we worry about who plays in the warmups.

Beshocked - I think the idea would be for the first 2 warm ups to be a bit more experimental and then the final warm up more about the final squad.

At Hooker its hard to choose between George and LCD, one of them probably wont make the final cut anyway. But I would expect Webber and/or the 2 above to get significant game time in the early games.

Burgess if now a centre shouldnt be in the final squad but if he does survive then he should be given game time then.
Barrett and Joseph should have time together and likewise as stated above the Care-Ford combination should be tested.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Boom?

As in 'now argue your way out of that one'....

Already did Jimpy. I guess it's not in your nature to support my arguments even though I know you dislike Clark.

propdavid london what do you think of Webber? Seems strange that he couldn't get past Batty for Bath yet Lancaster obviously sees him as 2nd or 3rd choice for England.

Lancaster does like his big centres hence picking Burrell and Manu, Burgess obviously fits his idea of having a big battering ram though I wonder if he sees him as a 12 or 13.

Well there's still a question of whether Saracens or England see Itoje as a 6 or a lock. I think all those players will be in the pot.

no 7 & 1/2 perhaps in your opinion but not in Lancaster's.

Has Garvey ever been given a real opportunity by Lancaster? No. Ewers has arguably been unfairly overlooked but he missed out on the squad. So did the likes of Fearns,Wray and Clifford.

Yes there are players in the pot but most of those you mention are actually behind Itoje in Lancaster's eyes currently. Even Burgess because Burgess is seen as a centre not a 6.