England's RWC Preparations

by **LondonTiger** Wed 22 Jul 2015, 8:35 am

First topic message reminder :

Original thread about to explode

https://www.606v2.com/t59064-englands-50-man-training-squad-for-rwc

by Big Thu 06 Aug 2015, 2:22 pm

fa0019 wrote:
I'd rather have mental edge of saying we beat you last time we met rather than saying... I've given Strauss a run out.

Easily said (and intuitively I'd be inclined to agree) but I'm not sure that history backs it up. Unless I'm mistaken the Trinations/Rugby Championship winners don't have a great record in World Cups. You'd think given the general dominance that whoever wins that in the summer would be a strong contender for the world cup - but in the limited time they've been running the Trinations champions haven't made it past the semis in the WC.

by No 7&1/2 Thu 06 Aug 2015, 2:47 pm

fa0019 wrote:Watch the boks play and you'll see Bissie come off at the 60 min mark near guaranteed. You'll think to yourself... for me he's one of the best players on the pitch (very consistent). He brings on Strauss and momentum is nearly always lost.

Its a dangerous game to play messing with matches for the sake of giving everyone an opportunity to shine. If someone is doing well... stick with them. Might be worth it come the world cup as players are more experienced but for instance... I'm sure SA would have beaten both AUS and NZ had he stayed on the pitch, both times he was subbed he was probably the best player on the pitch, both times SA were in front, both times SA fell in the last few moments. Its not rocket science.

I'd rather have mental edge of saying we beat you last time we met rather than saying... I've given Strauss a run out.

I guess the RWC is where they will make or break as coaches.

Given the large slice of (mis)fortune SA did get in that game with their props the ifs and buts game is a bit iffy. In relation to pre planned subs I can see both sides. A more fatigued player is statiscally more likelyt o get injured and someone like Cole for England looked like he was being overplayed. In a 1 off match though you d hope whoever gettingt he best overt heir opponent stays while they can.

by Geordie Thu 06 Aug 2015, 4:25 pm

The telegraph today..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/11785987/Rugby-World-Cup-2015-England-head-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-is-expecting-no-backlash-from-axed-players.html

England coach’s key selection criteria

Performances in training
Chris Robshaw was infamously overlooked for the 2011 World Cup under previous head coach Martin Johnson despite being the squad’s outstanding performer in training.

Form over the past 12 months
Lancaster’s much referenced “credit in the bank” built up by previous performances in an England shirt.

What is your international credibility?
How does a player measure up to their opposite numbers on the international stage?

Have you got world-class positional skills?
Scrummaging for a prop, tackling for a flanker, goalkicking for fly-half etc.

Have you got a physical point of difference?
The attribute that distinguishes a player from his peers.

by Geordie Thu 06 Aug 2015, 4:32 pm

The telegraph also say that Jamie George and LCD are fighting for the 3rd spot as Webber has the 2nd spot nailed.

How on earth? He has been appalling this season.

by thomh Thu 06 Aug 2015, 5:14 pm

Well let's run the most-discussed player through those selection criteria.

Sam Burgess:

Performances in training
We're not in a position to judge.

Form
None at international level so none of Lancaster's credit in the bank. Mixed at club. If he's being seen as a 12 then you'd have to say here isn't a huge amount of form, although his only Premiership start there was on of his best performances vs Wasps.

International credibility
Well he's a physical match for the likes of Roberts, Nonu, Sony Bill and De Villiers, but you do have to wonder whether oppositions would actually be delighted to be facing him at this stage.

Positional skills
12s come in all types but he can certainly carry, tackle and offload. Do England want their 12 to have a better long pass?

Physical point of difference?
Undoubtedly.

So not a huge amount to justify his inclusion at this point beyond his natural skills and Lancaster's gut instinct.

by Sgt_Pooly Thu 06 Aug 2015, 5:31 pm

All of Burgess's best games have been at 6 by some distance imo

by thomh Thu 06 Aug 2015, 5:43 pm

The vast majority but not all - he was excellent at 12 vs Wasps, his only Premiership start there.

by Sgt_Pooly Thu 06 Aug 2015, 5:56 pm

Yea he was decent against Wasps but awful for the Saxons

by doctor_grey Thu 06 Aug 2015, 6:00 pm

Who knows if Burgess can deliver the goods at centre? Especially with less than a year in Rugby, and even less in the mid field? No one.

But it is clear Lancaster blows his willy over Burgess' potential (such a mess at training, no?). So it really depends how Burgess goes in training, which we won't see, and then again in the one training match. If he is selected, we are going to have to hope he shows 100% of that presumed potential. Otherwise, England could be screwed.

by Gwlad Thu 06 Aug 2015, 6:03 pm

Best way to test burgess is throw him in at 12 v France. Could be the biggest match of his life and in that respect with his experience i expect him to stand up to the test, but whether he has the nouse to play 12 at that level so soon is a ridiculous ask, perhaps only someone with his mental strength can handle.

by doctor_grey Thu 06 Aug 2015, 8:29 pm

Gwlad wrote:Best way to test burgess is throw him in at 12 v France. Could be the biggest match of his life and in that respect with his experience i expect him to stand up to the test, but whether he has the nouse to play 12 at that level so soon is a ridiculous ask, perhaps only someone with his mental strength can handle.

I agree he has to be thrown in to see what happens. Hopefully a lot of very good things. And this is not a test of his fortitude or character. He has been a top player in other sport and it takes all that to get there, not just being a superior athlete.

The question is if he has learned the skills. A great athlete can have his doors blown off without skills, knowledge, and rapid-fire game instinct. Hopefully, as I said, he does it. But the deck might be stacked against him with so little time playing Rugby.

by Gwlad Fri 07 Aug 2015, 12:51 am

doctor_grey wrote:
Gwlad wrote:Best way to test burgess is throw him in at 12 v France. Could be the biggest match of his life and in that respect with his experience i expect him to stand up to the test, but whether he has the nouse to play 12 at that level so soon is a ridiculous ask, perhaps only someone with his mental strength can handle.
I agree he has to be thrown in to see what happens. Hopefully a lot of very good things. And this is not a test of his fortitude or character. He has been a top player in other sport and it takes all that to get there, not just being a superior athlete.

The question is if he has learned the skills. A great athlete can have his doors blown off without skills, knowledge, and rapid-fire game instinct. Hopefully, as I said, he does it. But the deck might be stacked against him with so little time playing Rugby.

Really the only way i can see it working is if they copy Wales and use him as a battering ram in possession. Defensively he can form the core of a very quick and flat line, however that is easily exposed.

by beshocked Fri 07 Aug 2015, 10:54 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:The telegraph also say that Jamie George and LCD are fighting for the 3rd spot as Webber has the 2nd spot nailed.

How on earth? He has been appalling this season.

I agree. He couldn't even get past Ross Batty at hooker.

Let's be honest if club form meant anything to Lancaster neither Corbisiero or Webber would be in the squad.

They are in there because they do have international experience. Unfortunately neither do George or LCD but they need opportunities to see if they can cut it.

Would be double standards if he cuts Ashton who has a lot of international experience but keeps Webber and Corbisiero.

by Geordie Fri 07 Aug 2015, 11:00 am

Lancaster does confuse me at times with some of his decisions....

by beshocked Fri 07 Aug 2015, 11:37 am

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3187360/Chris-Ashton-faces-World-Cup-axe-England-look-set-Semesa-Rokoduguni-chance.html

According to the daily mail it's Ashton,Dickson,Easter,Yarde,Ksevic,Eastmond,Kruis and Mullan being cut.

Pretty disappointing if true.

Only silver lining is LCD and George being retained.

by Geordie Fri 07 Aug 2015, 11:49 am

Which means 4 hookers beshocked??

Also If Easter (I assume his back is not recovering) is not stopping then he has been a completely wasted space...and Itoje should have been kept longer....he would have benefitted from being there.

No kruis suggests - Lawes, Launchbury, Attwood, Parling.

by Geordie Fri 07 Aug 2015, 11:55 am

It also brings me to question Lancaster again....

Roko played v NZ and did quite well considering in his first test....then a slight injury and was dropped of the face of the England world by Lancaster....suddenly he's back again.

Does Lancaster know what he's doing.

by lostinwales Fri 07 Aug 2015, 12:00 pm

Easter out means that big bad Ben must be firing on all cylinders.

Not sure why the others listed is disappointing? Some marginal calls but none of those were likely to be first choices.

by Geordie Fri 07 Aug 2015, 12:05 pm

We can certainly see the squad shaping up though if these are the cuts

by Geordie Fri 07 Aug 2015, 12:10 pm

If that is correct it would leave:

Forwards
Props
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers),
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Jaime George (Saracens)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)

Back Row

Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)

Backs
SH

Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Danny Care (Harlequins)

Fh

Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Centre

Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Back 3
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Semisa Rokoduguni (Bath)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

by beshocked Fri 07 Aug 2015, 12:11 pm

Well if the cut players seems to be the case then no I don't think he does.

No Ksevic means no specialist 7 in the squad - I wouldn't call Clark a specialist plus he's got no international experience.

As you said - what's the point of retaining Easter if you're just going to drop him before the 31?

Also as you say 4 hookers = baffling. Should make a decision.

Only cutting Dickson and perhaps Yarde were the most sensible ones.

I would have cut Dickson,Easter (wouldn't have been in the 50),Clark,Yarde,Attwood,Corbisiero,Webber,Twelvetrees.

by lostinwales Fri 07 Aug 2015, 12:12 pm

Missing roko there?

by Geordie Fri 07 Aug 2015, 12:15 pm

Roko Added

by **Ozzy3213** Fri 07 Aug 2015, 1:28 pm

beshocked wrote:Well if the cut players seems to be the case then no I don't think he does.

No Ksevic means no specialist 7 in the squad - I wouldn't call Clark a specialist plus he's got no international experience.

As you said - what's the point of retaining Easter if you're just going to drop him before the 31?

Also as you say 4 hookers = baffling. Should make a decision.

Only cutting Dickson and perhaps Yarde were the most sensible ones.

I would have cut Dickson,Easter (wouldn't have been in the 50),Clark,Yarde,Attwood,Corbisiero,Webber,Twelvetrees.

I'm certainly no Lancaster apologist, but not sure how he can be knocked for retaining all 4 hookers at this stage. Two are completely untested at international level, and i imagine he'll have a look at both in the warm up matches before making a decision. That seems like one of his more sensible decisions to me.

by spaynter Fri 07 Aug 2015, 2:16 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:
beshocked wrote:Well if the cut players seems to be the case then no I don't think he does.

No Ksevic means no specialist 7 in the squad - I wouldn't call Clark a specialist plus he's got no international experience.

As you said - what's the point of retaining Easter if you're just going to drop him before the 31?

Also as you say 4 hookers = baffling. Should make a decision.

Only cutting Dickson and perhaps Yarde were the most sensible ones.

I would have cut Dickson,Easter (wouldn't have been in the 50),Clark,Yarde,Attwood,Corbisiero,Webber,Twelvetrees.

I'm certainly no Lancaster apologist, but not sure how he can be knocked for retaining all 4 hookers at this stage. Two are completely untested at international level, and i imagine he'll have a look at both in the warm up matches before making a decision. That seems like one of his more sensible decisions to me.

Agreed. There will be 3 in the final squad. Having 4 in the 38 seems sensible with 2 games before the final cut.

by Gwlad Fri 07 Aug 2015, 3:11 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:It also brings me to question Lancaster again....

Roko played v NZ and did quite well considering in his first test....then a slight injury and was dropped of the face of the England world by Lancaster....suddenly he's back again.

Does Lancaster know what he's doing.

Bit late to be asking this, he's been doing this since he started…how many England players has he used?

by Poorfour Fri 07 Aug 2015, 3:15 pm

beshocked wrote:Well if the cut players seems to be the case then no I don't think he does.

No Ksevic means no specialist 7 in the squad - I wouldn't call Clark a specialist plus he's got no international experience.

As you said - what's the point of retaining Easter if you're just going to drop him before the 31?

Also as you say 4 hookers = baffling. Should make a decision.

Only cutting Dickson and perhaps Yarde were the most sensible ones.

I would have cut Dickson,Easter (wouldn't have been in the 50),Clark,Yarde,Attwood,Corbisiero,Webber,Twelvetrees.

This is just getting silly. There's a good justification for each of the decisions, even if you don't agree with it.

There is a specialist 7 in the squad: Robshaw has exclusively played 7 for the last 5 years. Haskell has played 7 at International level (and it's arguably his best position) and Wood and even Croft have played 7 at club level. All of them have more international experience than Kvesic and two of them have more international experience at 7.

Retaining Easter to this point makes absolute sense if there was genuine competition between him and Morgan for the 8 spot, or if Morgan's fitness was in doubt. Dropping him now implies that Morgan is fully fit and in better form than Easter.

Keeping Corbisiero makes sense because he can play tighthead and there are only likely to be 5 props in the squad.

Webber's club form hasn't been great but he has credit in the bank internationally when none of the other options has. It wasn't Lancaster's fault that Hartley got himself banned. It would be his fault if we had to go into the Wales or Australia game with two debutant hookers.

I've not seen enough of Clark to know why he's held in such high esteem, and personally I might have preferred Kruis to Attwood. But these are all marginal calls about fringe players; Lancaster is showing a general preference for players who've shown they can work within the system over stuffing the squad with untried players. You may not like that but if this board were picking the squad we'd only be a handful of injuries away from fielding units with no experience at all.

by yappysnap Fri 07 Aug 2015, 6:31 pm

LATEST SQUAD CHANGES

Chris Ashton's World Cup dream is over as Stuart Lancaster trimmed his England training squad to 39.

Saracens' Ashton, who has scored 19 tries in 39 matches - he is the leading Test-try scorer available to the England head coach - is the highest-profile casualty. Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby) and Marlard Yarde (Harlequins) are also heading back to their clubs.

"We had a great two-week camp in Denver where the entire squad worked extremely hard and were exceptional in the way they went about the training," Lancaster said.

"That has continued this week and competition for places has been very intense.

"It has been difficult to narrow down the squad as everyone has contributed and given their all. But what I have said to those guys who are not coming back in on Sunday is that the door is not closed by any means.

"They are only an injury away and there is a lot of international rugby to be played this season, culminating in a three-Test tour to Australia.

"Overall we are in good shape. Both Nick Easter and Ben Morgan are now fit and we want to give them both opportunities to train fully and prove their form and fitness next week."

England training squad:

Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Nick Easter (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Jamie George (Saracens)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Joe Launchbury (Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

So going by that Easter is still in there, which I find pleasing.

by Poorfour Fri 07 Aug 2015, 6:48 pm

yappysnap wrote:So going by that Easter is still in there, which I find pleasing.

Me too. But we appear to be in a bit of a minority. Hope he gets at least a warm up game.

by Gwlad Fri 07 Aug 2015, 7:41 pm

Thinking about Burgess he works well with Ford, biggest problem at centre is his high tackling which i hope they have drilled out of him otherwise he may spend much of his RWC on the naughty step. As a 12 he is likely to be lining up for some huge hits and if he gets it wrong could be costly

by No 7&1/2 Fri 07 Aug 2015, 8:20 pm

Can t see Easter going if Morgan is fit but he s a great back up. Disappointment for me is Mullan, suppose Corbisieros ability to cover both sides is a plus but his form has nt been good enough.

by Sgt_Pooly Fri 07 Aug 2015, 8:51 pm

I wouldn't fancy Corbisiero playing TH.

No great surprises. Ashton probably the closest to making it but he's not been involved for a while.

by DaveM Sat 08 Aug 2015, 12:21 am

Pretty sensible thinning of the squad I'd say, and I can't understand the strong criticism of SL from GeordieFalcon and Beshocked. Take Webber - he's got international experience, and we can be fairly confident he's training well. Retaining him is hardly an outrageous decision given the inexperience f George and LCD, and neither is holding onto 4 hookers at this stage as LCD and George have more time to make a case. Kvesic and Roko were expected omissions.

Also this isn't the final squad, and I wouldn't be surprised if injury saw at least one of today's axed players figuring in the WC.

by TJ Sat 08 Aug 2015, 10:02 am

I am surprised at dropping Eastmond. He seemed to me to be one player with that magical ability to unlock defences with his running. Solidity over flair?

On Burgess. Altho he played with 6 on his back for his club in defense he lined up where the centres normally would in the backs did he not?

by Poorfour Sat 08 Aug 2015, 10:33 am

The problem with Eastmond is that Ford and Joseph are pretty much inked in at 10 and 13. Although all three play together at club level, it's a bit light for international level. Sarries showed in the AP final that Bath can be overpowered.

Eastmond is a victim of that. He might have had a better chance had Tuilagi been available.

by Geordie Sat 08 Aug 2015, 6:32 pm

My criticism of Lanacaster is not massive. I've always said he's been exactly what English Rugby needed, but I have also said on here through his tenure that he does make decisions and selections that puzzle me.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, he's seen them in training, he's a level 5 coach....he knows WAY more than me so I'll accept his decision-making. But I can question it on a forum at Times.

I hope Easter is fit and firing. I always defended him when he was in the England team and everyone was slating him. but I just question is he what we need now of he's not training due to his back problem.

Likewise Twelvtrees. I'll not go there he divides opinions massively. I just think hes not international class. Simple as that.

I'll not say anymore and I'll judge Stuart after the world cup.

by Poorfour Sat 08 Aug 2015, 7:56 pm

Lancaster confirmed in the squad announcement that both Easter and Morgan are fully recovered and he's looking forward to seeing what they can do. I assume that means they will both get game time in the warm-ups.

I think you may have read too much into Easter's back problem, GF. I am guessing that it was a strain or something similarly minor, but Easter is a big guy and as someone of similar height and weight I can see how two transatlantic flights in quick succession would be a great way to exacerbate it.

by Geordie Sat 08 Aug 2015, 9:51 pm

Possibly I am mate, and I hold off any criticism from now. I appreciate what Lancaster has done so far generally, so we'll see what happens. I hope I'm proved totally wrong.

by DaveM Sat 08 Aug 2015, 9:56 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:My criticism of Lanacaster is not massive. I've always said he's been exactly what English Rugby needed, but I have also said on here through his tenure that he does make decisions and selections that puzzle me.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, he's seen them in training, he's a level 5 coach....he knows WAY more than me so I'll accept his decision-making. But I can question it on a forum at Times.

I hope Easter is fit and firing. I always defended him when he was in the England team and everyone was slating him. but I just question is he what we need now of he's not training due to his back problem.

Likewise Twelvtrees. I'll not go there he divides opinions massively. I just think hes not international class. Simple as that.

I'll not say anymore and I'll judge Stuart after the world cup.

But the squad isn't finalised. It's entirely possible that neither Easter or Twelvetrees will ultimately make the cut.

by **Rugby Fan** Sat 08 Aug 2015, 10:06 pm

The rationale for most of the squad seems fairly clear. The lack of experience is a worry because players can freeze when a game starts going against them and the stakes are high. The 2003 winners had shaky moments against Samoa and Wales, in particular, and I'm not confident our current team can be so resilient in adversity. The upset wins in the Rugby Championship are a reminder of how momentum takes a game away.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 09 Aug 2015, 12:52 pm

Lancaster has said he expects to field his first choice team in the first three pool matches. He wants the players to get a hit out against Fiji before facing Wales and Australia, but he probably also expects Fiji to field their first choice too.

If you were coaching Fiji, how would you use your resources? They play England, Australia, Wales and then Uruguay.

They could play their best XV against England and Australia, but decide to rest players against Wales, to stay fresh for Uruguay. Or they could decide Australia is a game they can't win, and try to stay fresh for Wales, to see if they can claim a high value scalp.

If, of course, they beat England in the opener, then you'd have to expect they would write off the Australian game, because beating Wales and Uruguay would give them an excellent chance of qualifying.

If Australia do get a second string Fiji, then they ought to be in a good position to rack up a score.

As far as Uruguay are concerned, they go Wales, Australia, Fiji and then England. I can't help thinking that makes it likely they would give up the Wallaby match to be fresh for a chance at overturning Fiji.

It seems to me that Australia have a better chance than England and Wales of facing a lower strength Fiji, which might give them an edge if it come down to bonus points and points difference.

(England do have a potential advantage in facing Uruguay last - if the result still matters - because they might know what they need to do.)

by TJ Sun 09 Aug 2015, 12:57 pm

Easter? Really? A plodding donkey. He will have no influence in any game against the top sides being simply too slow

by Cumbrian Sun 09 Aug 2015, 1:05 pm

I must admit, I saw the value of including Easter when Morgan was crocked and Billy had no experienced back up, now I can't see the need. All reports say Morgan is fitter than ever I can't see the need for him.

by BigTrevsbigmac Mon 10 Aug 2015, 6:57 am

Team announcement v France is today (Monday) brought forward 72 hours. No reason given.

by Geordie Mon 10 Aug 2015, 8:01 am

DaveM wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:My criticism of Lanacaster is not massive. I've always said he's been exactly what English Rugby needed, but I have also said on here through his tenure that he does make decisions and selections that puzzle me.

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, he's seen them in training, he's a level 5 coach....he knows WAY more than me so I'll accept his decision-making. But I can question it on a forum at Times.

I hope Easter is fit and firing. I always defended him when he was in the England team and everyone was slating him. but I just question is he what we need now of he's not training due to his back problem.

Likewise Twelvtrees. I'll not go there he divides opinions massively. I just think hes not international class. Simple as that.

I'll not say anymore and I'll judge Stuart after the world cup.

But the squad isn't finalised. It's entirely possible that neither Easter or Twelvetrees will ultimately make the cut.

Yes but in my opinion neither should have even been in the extended squad.

Anyway, ive said my bit, lets see how they go in the warm ups and pool games.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 10 Aug 2015, 8:13 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
DaveM wrote:But the squad isn't finalised. It's entirely possible that neither Easter or Twelvetrees will ultimately make the cut.

Yes but in my opinion neither should have even been in the extended squad.

It's likely the squad will end up with a lot of the people we can all agree on. As Lancaster trims it down, however, we get an idea of who he sees as first choice replacements. The fact Twelvetrees is still in the squad suggests that, even if cut, he's an injury away from getting back in, which seems too high in the pecking order.

As an aside, I've read speculation that Eastmond might consider a return to League, presumably because he doesn't see his international ambitions playing out as he hoped. That would be a real shame.

by beshocked Mon 10 Aug 2015, 9:39 am

Poorfour wrote:
beshocked wrote:Well if the cut players seems to be the case then no I don't think he does.

No Ksevic means no specialist 7 in the squad - I wouldn't call Clark a specialist plus he's got no international experience.

As you said - what's the point of retaining Easter if you're just going to drop him before the 31?

Also as you say 4 hookers = baffling. Should make a decision.

Only cutting Dickson and perhaps Yarde were the most sensible ones.

I would have cut Dickson,Easter (wouldn't have been in the 50),Clark,Yarde,Attwood,Corbisiero,Webber,Twelvetrees.

This is just getting silly. There's a good justification for each of the decisions, even if you don't agree with it.

There is a specialist 7 in the squad: Robshaw has exclusively played 7 for the last 5 years. Haskell has played 7 at International level (and it's arguably his best position) and Wood and even Croft have played 7 at club level. All of them have more international experience than Kvesic and two of them have more international experience at 7.

Retaining Easter to this point makes absolute sense if there was genuine competition between him and Morgan for the 8 spot, or if Morgan's fitness was in doubt. Dropping him now implies that Morgan is fully fit and in better form than Easter.

Keeping Corbisiero makes sense because he can play tighthead and there are only likely to be 5 props in the squad.

Webber's club form hasn't been great but he has credit in the bank internationally when none of the other options has. It wasn't Lancaster's fault that Hartley got himself banned. It would be his fault if we had to go into the Wales or Australia game with two debutant hookers.

I've not seen enough of Clark to know why he's held in such high esteem, and personally I might have preferred Kruis to Attwood. But these are all marginal calls about fringe players; Lancaster is showing a general preference for players who've shown they can work within the system over stuffing the squad with untried players. You may not like that but if this board were picking the squad we'd only be a handful of injuries away from fielding units with no experience at all.

Robshaw plays 7 but I wouldn't call him a traditional openside.

As for Haskell - when did he last play 7 for England? Also I would want to see him play well in one position before saying - oh he's great at 6,7 and 8. 1 good game vs Wales doesn't make up for his poor performances in the others.

As for Wood and Croft - of course you would want to see them wearing the 7 shirt......

Poorfour because of course everyone wants to see Corbisiero at TH..... he's in poor form - he doesn't deserve to be retained.

I rarely agree with TJ but he's right - Easter is too slow at international level.

Quins fans happy to see Easter retained - no surprises there. Easter will only be useful if Morgan or Billy are injured. If they stay fit there is no need.

DaveM Webber can't get past Ross Batty at Bath. That shows how poor Webber's form is. You say he's got international experience -it's 12 caps, not really that many.

Yes he might be performing really well in training but that doesn't mean he perform well in a match.

What I object to is Lancaster dropping the wrong experienced players and retaining the "experienced" players who have done very little at international level for a long time IMO

I feel like Lancaster is backing the wrong inexperienced players like Burgess and Clark too.

At least LCD,George and Slade have been retained.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 10 Aug 2015, 9:46 am

Ashton and Itoje by any chance?

by beshocked Mon 10 Aug 2015, 10:09 am

Yes. Retaining the most experienced winger, was top try scorer in the last world cup and scored more tries than any other winger in the squad last season seems an obvious choice in my opinion.

As for Itoje - retaining one of the brightest young talents who can play lock and blindside flanker seems like an obvious choice too.

A balance of experience and risk. Two players who showed enough good form throughout the season to warrant being given a chance in the warm ups IMO.

Squad= uninspiring, only positives are Slade,LCD and George being retained.

Plus it does seem like a kick in the teeth for Eastmond.

Lancaster's flawed logic - if you play poorly against NZ away from home - you're seen as surplus to requirements and will struggle to get another cap for England - e.g. Yarde,Ashton and Eastmond.

Play poorly in an international tournament - like May be recalled because he looked good in training.
Play poorly for a club season - be recalled - Corbisiero and Webber or retained like 36.
Play well for your club - like Ewers,Ksevic,Itoje,Ashton,Eastmond don't get retained or in Ewers case even be picked in the first place.
Pick player with less rugby union experience than any other player in the squad and keep him but won't pick other inexperienced players because they are supposedly too inexperienced.

Consistency? No.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 10 Aug 2015, 10:20 am

I can fully see the arguments for an additional wing and Ashton will be likely cover despite not performing for England in a good while. Id probably have had Slater in myself and Eastmond was a bit of a disaster in his last 2 caps even considering the quality of the opposition. Thing is none of them were going to be threatening the 1st team so is it that big a blow? Given the amount of qulity players with few standouts no matter who s picked someone will have a gripe; and it ll be understandable.

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