New English Players after the World cup

First topic message reminder :

As the "England's RWC Preparations" is meandering a bit and we in a bit of a phoney war situation, I thought I would raise a new topic looking at which new English players might be near the full squad, post work cup.

On my list would be (though obviously not all would ever make): -

Otoje
Ewers (offers a bit of muscle in the back-row)
Auterac
Slater
Kitchener (not really in favour with Rowtree/lancaster, but may be a bit underrated?)
Burgess

Slade (could easy make the final 31 for the World cup)
Cowan-Dickie (ditto as for Slade)
Wade (may be he might get a chance).
Devoto (actually can look a good inside centre)

The list in NOT exhaustive, please feel free to suggest more names and comment.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think England's pipeline is exceptional at the moment. What marks it out for me is that you have plenty of different types of player coming through in each position, meaning that a strong coaching set-up can mix and blend the options to whatever particular style they are seeking to achieve.

The challenge, as always, will be identifying those individuals who can become top class international players, as opposed to simply "good" players. Wales, Ireland and, to a sadly lesser degree, Scotland focus their resources better and squeeze every ounce of potential from the players available. They have to. England has always had the luxury of options, but it's getting the right players, and the right combination of players, into the 1st XV that's the real trick.

Lancaster has done some really good things, but so far he still hasn't maxmised the talent available to him in my book.

That last point is interesting, who springs to mind? Wade pops into mine. Kvesic to a lesser extent.

Not sure I agree with either of those last two points. I think Lancaster has made the most of the talent available given the serious constraint that injury has forced him to rejig the backline almost from scratch every series.

In terms of individual players, opinion will always be divided about Wade; I personally don't think he's a good enough defender to be an international and clearly the coaches feel the same. Kvesic was tried a couple of times but didn't really set the world alight. You also have to set that against the players that Lancaster has brought through - off the top of my head, Marler, Mako, Tom Youngs, Brookes, Thomas, Launchbury, Kruis, Robshaw, Morgan, Billy V, Farrell, Ford, Barritt, Joseph, Brown, Watson, Nowell all had their debuts or at least became core players since 2012. That's most of the first XV.

It also highlights why England can look raw at times and come unstuck against particular gameplans. It took Woodward from 97-2003 to develop a reliable Plan A and Plan B, working with a much more experienced group of players. Lancaster's had less than 4 years and a much greener side.

lostinwales wrote:

thomh wrote:

beshocked wrote:Poorfour on paper the potential looks good but not every player makes it.

What are the chances of these guys starting for their clubs this season?

Any chance of Sloan and Marchant becoming your first choice centre partnership at Quins?

Farrell should not be considered at 12 or 13. He's a physical 10 who offers something different to the other players.

Will be interesting to see who makes their breakthrough this season.

Not for a couple of years probably. Roberts is joining and there's no reason to think Lowe won't carry on being first choice 13. Nice to have more options there though as our centres have taken a hammering in terms of game time recently.

Given his history lets just see if Roberts improves on the number of club games he plays. He'll be a great asset when he turns up but there may well be plenty of opportunities for the alternatives

Quite. If Sloan stays fit I'd expect him to play about 50% of the games next season. Marchant will take a couple of years to break through as long as Lowe is completely recovered from his dislocated head. And if Lowe is completely recovered, we shouldn't rule him out either - he's been playing for so long that it's easy to forget he's still only 25 or 26 and while he's not as electric as Joseph he's brilliant positionally and much faster than people expect (his injury came shortly after a tap tackle where he ran down Varndell, with a head start, on an angle).

I agree Poorfour I was scratching around a bit for names.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I think that sums up quite a lot of how most England fans feel towards him...he is the coach in charge of possibly the most fruitful period in English rugby with regards to resources available.....if he fails to nurture it...he needs to go...but he could also set England back years!

That's a bit over the top isn't it? How could he set England back years? The depth of talent isn't going away, and SL has done a pretty good job of rebuilding and sifting from a large and growing talent pool. Given there will always be selections people don't agree with I think the level of controversy around the England side is pretty low.

Even if he has a disaster and is surprisingly dismissed, despite having 4 years left on his contract, any coach in World rugby would be happy to take over the depth of talent England have, and we'd go into the next 6 Nations as one of the favourites.

Poorfour wrote:

Quite. If Sloan stays fit I'd expect him to play about 50% of the games next season. Marchant will take a couple of years to break through as long as Lowe is completely recovered from his dislocated head. And if Lowe is completely recovered, we shouldn't rule him out either - he's been playing for so long that it's easy to forget he's still only 25 or 26 and while he's not as electric as Joseph he's brilliant positionally and much faster than people expect (his injury came shortly after a tap tackle where he ran down Varndell, with a head start, on an angle).

I struggle to get past the memory of Daly completely burning him for pace a couple of years back.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Anyway back on track.

Which player will nail the 12 spot?

Slade
Hill
Stephenson
Devoto
A.N.other?

Slade. In my opinion the most complete English back of his generation (and his generation is a very strong one). He has to play, and he'll be a fine 12 for a long time to come. I also really rate Devoto (hopefully Eastmond won't block him out of the Bath team) and Stephenson, and think Hill has the potential to play international rugby too. Outside centre is going to be a position of real strength for England over the next few years.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Wade most certainly, and whilst Brown has been excellent at 15, the potential in Anthony Watson as a strike runner is considerable. I see Watson, Wade and May as one of the most exciting attacking back threes in world rugby, and if you combine those three with the attacking capabilities of Joseph, Ford and Ben Youngs, then England really ought to be in a better place. The real debate is over the 12 jersey, but until Burgess is playing in that role for Bath and performing consistently well, I think Brad Barritt would be the player to knit together the talent I've outlined previously.

Like many people I think Wade's defensive frailties cancel out his considerable strengths in finishing to such a degree that he shouldn't be in the side. This is partly because there are a number of other options. I'd say that Nowell in particular is a wonderfully rounded player who could be a star of the coming WC.

Also Burgess will probably never play 12 again for Bath.