New English Players after the World cup

First topic message reminder :

As the "England's RWC Preparations" is meandering a bit and we in a bit of a phoney war situation, I thought I would raise a new topic looking at which new English players might be near the full squad, post work cup.

On my list would be (though obviously not all would ever make): -

Otoje
Ewers (offers a bit of muscle in the back-row)
Auterac
Slater
Kitchener (not really in favour with Rowtree/lancaster, but may be a bit underrated?)
Burgess

Slade (could easy make the final 31 for the World cup)
Cowan-Dickie (ditto as for Slade)
Wade (may be he might get a chance).
Devoto (actually can look a good inside centre)

The list in NOT exhaustive, please feel free to suggest more names and comment.

DaveM wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

DaveM wrote:Ok, but the pack I list above has a variety of body shapes in it. I'd give Marler next summer off, along with Cole.

Agreed on both counts. I'd add Lawes to that list as well.

Robshaw will likely be in need of a rest as well but I expect that will depend on whether he has retained the captaincy.

I expect that a few others might be looking in need of a rest as well by the end of a RWC, Six Nations and what is looking likely to be a very competive Prem. Some rotation of players between tests may be required for some postion depending on key players work loads throughout the season.

Tom Wood could be an interesting player in that regard. Given his injury record I would have thought a rest will be necessary by the end of the season. If he is playing for his place in the squad then he will be extremely reluctant to take the rest however.

1.Mako 2.Youngs/George 3.Wilson 4.Launchbury/Slater 5.Kitchener 6.Itoje 7.Robshaw/Kvesic 8.Morgan/Billy
9.Youngs/Care 10.Ford/Farrell 11.Nowell 12.Manu/Slade 13.Joseph 14.Wade 15.Watson

I would be very happy to see a side such as that in Aus. With the likes of Launchbury/Slater, Robshaw/Kvesic, etc sharing the workload a bit to avoid burnout and take a proper look at our options.

I'm not sure the coaching staff will ever trust Wade enough to give him game time, particularly as there are plenty of other good wing options. The other place where I'd differ is at 6: SL loves Burgess, and I think Burgess can only play 6 in the long-term, which will push Itoje into the second row (where he'll surely be ahead of Kitchener?). Wood is a good player, but lacks the presence, USP and physicality of Burgess. SL is going to have some nice dilemmas to solve.

If everything is to be believed....its irrelevant as a young Itoje will make that 6 spot his own and combines the best of both Wood and Burgess....and is only stopped with kryptonite...

I thought he sprinkled kryptonite on his breakfast cereal?! I'm disappointed.

Maybe he does marra....maybe he is...."indestructible" !!!!

Out of curiosity....which players in the current set up will be discarded post World Cup.
There really isn't that many.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Out of curiosity....which players in the current set up will be discarded post World Cup.
There really isn't that many.

I think we may see a few phased out over the next year or two.

Wilson, Hartley, Parling, Attwood, Haskell, Goode maybe?

Depends what the future aims are. If Lancaster is focused on the next world cup then he is going to be looking at the players who are not going to be there in 4 years time.

The obvious names are Easter and Parling, maybe Wilson and Hartley and possibly Brown. I also don't know how long Barritt will last, but this is on the whole a young squad. At least Vickery will still be there to add some experience.

I honestly don't think there will be many either. Best guess from me is:

Geoff Parling
Nick Easter
Richard Wigglesworth

There will be a few that have made it very difficult to have themselves selected like Dylan Hartley and Danny Cipriani.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Out of curiosity....which players in the current set up will be discarded post World Cup.
There really isn't that many.

Immediately post RWC:

Hartley
Easter
Possibly Haskell (not that old, but guys behind with a lot of promise)

Dickson / Wiggy
Goode / Foden

Before RWC 19
Corbisiero (injuries...)
Wilson
Robshaw
Barritt
Brown

Obviously a few others will drop by the wayside because of injuries, but you can only guess who that is likely to be.

Yeah Sgt I think that's probably right...over the period of the next year or so....

Davy Wilson
Easter
Hartley
Parling
Attwood
Haskell
Goode
Brown
Mullan
Barritt
Twelvetrees
Eastmond

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah Sgt I think that's probably right...over the period of the next year or so....

Davy Wilson
Easter
Hartley
Parling
Attwood
Haskell
Goode
Brown
Mullan
Barritt
Twelvetrees
Eastmond

I’d potentially add Ben Foden to that list depending on how he comes back from injury and how strong the call from France are.

If we have some sort of consensus that these guys are likely to go, who are their direct replacements?

Davy Wilson - I'd keep him, but eventually Brookes and Sinckler
Easter - Hughes longer term, Bill and Ben ok for now but if we have injuries then maybe Ewers
Hartley - LCD, George
Parling - Itoje, Kitchener, Slater,
Attwood - See Parling
Haskell - Itoje, Clifford,
Goode - All the potential replacements are far too good at running and stepping to replace Goode
Brown - Nowell, Watson
Mullan - Auterac as a squad guy, well stocked in front of him
Barritt - Slade, Stephenson, Devoto, Hill
Twelvetrees - See Barritt
Eastmond - I'd keep him around

It wont be instant marra, Lancaster likes his experienced guys with high cap numbers.

I think it will be a gradual process over the next few seasons.

I think Hartley etc will still be involved straight after the WC.

BUt from the list I wrote :
Davy Wilson - Will be around a while yet.
Easter - Gone
Hartley - Be around for a season or two until LCD can throw.
Parling - Gone we have lots of mobile locks
Attwood - Gone not brought the power game. Hopefully Slater can
Haskell - Superman...sorry Itoje / Burgess (delete as appropriate) , Clifford
Goode - ??
Brown - Be around a while yet until Watson or Nowell show form at 15
Mullan - Auterac if he shows progress and consistency
Barritt - Stephenson, Hill, Slade, Devoto
Twelvetrees - Anyone
Eastmond - Think his size is a problem to Stewie

Hey, we're not far off Bam Bam...

I'm not so sure about Brookes going forward, I think Hill will have his jersey within the year at Saints.

Is that Paul Hill the lad Saints have signed from Leeds?

It'll be interesting to see how our young Leeds signing Harris does aswell.

Both are very highly regarded.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

beshocked wrote:Bigtrevsbigmac Hughes is unproven at international level.

If you say that you believe that Hughes is in better club form than Billy & Ben then you might have a good case but better no 8 at international level? Not a chance.

It would be like saying someone like LCD or George are better than Youngs - well we don't know unless one of them gets tried at international level and showed consistent good form.

Well I have seen both at Wasps and watched Billy's inevitable progress but from what I saw last season Hughes has the edge.
Because one player has played internationally and another hasn't doesn't automatically make them a better player. It is purely an opinion that's all. England will be in a very strong position at 8.

There are plenty of players selected to play for the Lions that imo aren't  better than some that weren't, it's just an opinion & that's what the forum is for surely?

I guess it depends what you mean by "better". Most valuable? The number 8 you would want starting for you? You're a Wasps fan, of course you would pick Hughes.


If Billy wasn't in form you might have a point but Billy was one of the best players in the 6 nations. Also was influential at club level too. Statistically Hughes might have been the best 8 in the AP for the season but a player's value is more than just stats.

Billy was as important to Saracens as Hughes was to Wasps throughout the season. When you look at two in form players you have to look at their achievements too. Hughes is still unproven at international level - it's not possible to tell whether he would be as effective at international level.


You say international form doesn't matter. Not sure people say that about Alex Goode! He's been one of the best full backs at club level in the last few years but hasn't had the same impact at international level.

I guess it depends whether you think international rugby should be important to measuring whether a player is "better" or not.

GeordieFalcon wrote:It wont be instant marra, Lancaster likes his experienced guys with high cap numbers.

I think it will be a gradual process over the next few seasons.

Not sure I agree with that. The whole thing about cap numbers is that there seems to be a critical level of experience for winning tournaments, and Lancaster started with such an inexperienced squad that he has tried to stick with a core bunch of players and hang on to what experience is available.

The post-2015 squad will be starting from a better position, but I still think he will look at some positions and make changes early so that the incoming players have time to get up to 20+ caps by 2019. The most likely ones for me are:

Tighthead - Cole has a good few years yet, but I expect to see a younger player brought through to replace Wilson
Hooker - I think Hartley's day is probably done and that the focus will shift to one of the youngsters over the next year or so
Flanker - He's unlikely to make a change immediately, but I would expect Itoje and Clifford to be phased in over the next couple of years
Scrum Half - I doubt Care will make 2019, so the role of Youngs' backup will open up
Inside Centre - plenty of candidates. Let the best man win
Fullback - tricky, as I don't think there is a replacement quite ready, but we may see Nowell and/or Watson move there as they gain more experience. That might be one of the later changes to be made - Brown isn't done for yet, and his successor can gain experience on the wing before moving across.

Change is likely to happen fastest at IC, then flanker, with the others being more gradual. Pretty much everywhere else the established candidates are young and change will only happen through injury or if someone emerges to oust them.

Feeling quite good about 2019 having typed this.

king_carlos wrote:

DaveM wrote:

king_carlos wrote:
1.Mako 2.Youngs/George 3.Wilson 4.Launchbury/Slater 5.Kitchener 6.Itoje 7.Robshaw/Kvesic 8.Morgan/Billy
9.Youngs/Care 10.Ford/Farrell 11.Nowell 12.Manu/Slade 13.Joseph 14.Wade 15.Watson

I would be very happy to see a side such as that in Aus. With the likes of Launchbury/Slater, Robshaw/Kvesic, etc sharing the workload a bit to avoid burnout and take a proper look at our options.

I'm not sure the coaching staff will ever trust Wade enough to give him game time, particularly as there are plenty of other good wing options.

I know this has been done to death so will try to keep my response short! Basically I do admit that Wade has poor positioning but just wish Lancaster would accept all his other options, Nowell aside, are poor defensively as well. Breaking down defence into it's most crucial components for a winger, tackling and positioning:

Nowell - Strong in both
Watson - Usually solid in positioning but poor in the tackle
May - Is usually soldid in both but has developed a tendency to fail under pressure in his own 22 - i.e. rushing out the line at Faletau to leave an overlap for a try and failing to tackle Morisi into touch when he should have.
Ashton - Has improved immeasurably in both and is actually very solid in positioning now but is still poor in the tackle.
Yarde - Poor in positioning to the point where he has a tendency to go missing in defence.
Wade - See Yarde.
Rokoduguni - One of the strongest in the tackle with the capability to put big hits in like Nowell due to his power. His postioning is better than Yarde or Wade but still gets caught out more than I'd like in this regard - one of the strongest defensively however.

All of them, Nowell aside, have their issues defensively IMO. Wade however adds the ability to change a game in attack due to his ability to beat a defender in no space at all from anywhere on the pitch.

Good analysis king_carlos.

Out of all those listed, Yarde is the most disappointing defensively for me. He offers a real physical threat with ball in hand, but shies away from defensive duties. I think his positioning is the problem.

Also, the point in bold I have to say something on. May had to jump out of the line to make up for Haskell's error. That left Rhys Webb undefended and allowed him to stroll in for the try. May seems to burden all of the criticism, and Haskell gets off. May was covering an earlier mistake that an international flanker should not have made.

That aside, I think May's defence (and especially his kick chasing) is high quality for the most part.

May's defence is ok, it's his decision making, he really does seem devoid of a brain at times.

I agree there Sgt_Pooly

bluestonevedder wrote:Good analysis king_carlos.

Out of all those listed, Yarde is the most disappointing defensively for me. He offers a real physical threat with ball in hand, but shies away from defensive duties. I think his positioning is the problem.

Also, the point in bold I have to say something on. May had to jump out of the line to make up for Haskell's error. That left Rhys Webb undefended and allowed him to stroll in for the try. May seems to burden all of the criticism, and Haskell gets off. May was covering an earlier mistake that an international flanker should not have made.

That aside, I think May's defence (and especially his kick chasing) is high quality for the most part.

If we're being picky, it was the ref's mistake... Faletau should have been penalised for picking the ball out of the middle of the scrum.

Other than that, I'd agree. Yarde's had a hard time settling at Quins - but his defence at club level has been OK, so he may pick up given a little more time.

The fact that so many wingers - most of whom aren't defensive liabilities at club level - are having trouble defending is a puzzling one. Is International defence that much harder for a winger? Or is it something with England's system? If the latter, then we can hope that 2 months of working under the same system will sort them out a bit.

I think its Englands system.

It was the same in attack....the wingers seemed lost with the system / ineffective.

bluestonevedder wrote:Good analysis king_carlos.

Out of all those listed, Yarde is the most disappointing defensively for me. He offers a real physical threat with ball in hand, but shies away from defensive duties. I think his positioning is the problem.

Also, the point in bold I have to say something on. May had to jump out of the line to make up for Haskell's error. That left Rhys Webb undefended and allowed him to stroll in for the try. May seems to burden all of the criticism, and Haskell gets off. May was covering an earlier mistake that an international flanker should not have made.

That aside, I think May's defence (and especially his kick chasing) is high quality for the most part.

Shies away is probably the best way to sum up Yarde's defence. He seems a real confidence player and when that confidence goes he stops looking for work and hides on his wing where he is least effective. Will all is power and athletic ability he needs to be involved in the thick of the action as often as possible. If he can do that I expect things will come together for him and he will have an international future - not many players have run through a McCaw tackle to crash over the line after all!

With May I agree it was Haskell's missed tackle that allowed the try and he was primarily at fault. However May wasn't defending the blindside on his own, Ford was inside him and Faletau was his man after he broke away. May either needed to step in early to make a 2 man tackle with Ford and stop the offload, or he needed to stay wide and cover. In the end he got caught between the two and left Webb to stroll in.

Poorfour wrote:The fact that so many wingers - most of whom aren't defensive liabilities at club level - are having trouble defending is a puzzling one. Is International defence that much harder for a winger? Or is it something with England's system? If the latter, then we can hope that 2 months of working under the same system will sort them out a bit.

Our defensive system works by flooding the first 10m next to ruck with defenders to stop forward runners making momentum. This lack of momentum is then used to ensure the opposition can't get quick ball. That way if they do try to go wide our centres can rush up to either, force them back inside towards the forwards defending that 10m channel, or make the tackle themselves behind the gainline and try to isolate the runner - this is where Barrit is so useful within our defensive pattern.

The problem with this is that if the opposition do get quick ball we are usually slow to react hence the winger is often caught in the uneviable position of having to deal with an overlap.

I think that the system does expose our wingers a bit given by the time the ball gets to them many players inside them have often already failed. That said they also don't help themselves sometimes by making basic errors such as being hesitant in whether to rush up to cut the move off or stay back. Plus the obvious missed tackles we have seen from a few which are so rarely forgivable at international level.

The question is how "developmental" would the team to Australia be?

I don't think it would be experimental at all. It'll be a strong side, with one or two players who really need it rested.

But Lancaster should definitely take the opportunity to look at a couple of players we talk about on here like Ed Slater, Mario Itoje, Slade etc.

king_carlos wrote:

Poorfour wrote:The fact that so many wingers - most of whom aren't defensive liabilities at club level - are having trouble defending is a puzzling one. Is International defence that much harder for a winger? Or is it something with England's system? If the latter, then we can hope that 2 months of working under the same system will sort them out a bit.

Our defensive system works by flooding the first 10m next to ruck with defenders to stop forward runners making momentum. This lack of momentum is then used to ensure the opposition can't get quick ball. That way if they do try to go wide our centres can rush up to either, force them back inside towards the forwards defending that 10m channel, or make the tackle themselves behind the gainline and try to isolate the runner - this is where Barrit is so useful within our defensive pattern.

The problem with this is that if the opposition do get quick ball we are usually slow to react hence the winger is often caught in the uneviable position of having to deal with an overlap.

I think that the system does expose our wingers a bit given by the time the ball gets to them many players inside them have often already failed. That said they also don't help themselves sometimes by making basic errors such as being hesitant in whether to rush up to cut the move off or stay back. Plus the obvious missed tackles we have seen from a few which are so rarely forgivable at international level.

Good analysis - I hadn't thought of it that way. The system does work well when we're at full strength and Barritt does make a huge difference (which suggests he's a good candidate at 12. And maybe is part of the thinking that has Burgess as a centre for this RWC).

That suggests to me that Wade in particular won't get another look in unless the defensive system changes. The others have occasional lapses, but a system like that exposes positional issues more cruelly than most club systems and Wade would be a real liability covering a wide channel. It also explains why Ashton's defence looks good for Sarries but he's all at sea for England, and why Lancaster prefers wing/fullbacks (more experience of having to cover a wide space and position themselves).

GeordieFalcon wrote:The question is how "developmental" would the team to Australia be?

I don't think it would be experimental at all. It'll be a strong side, with one or two players who really need it rested.

But Lancaster should definitely take the opportunity to look at a couple of players we talk about on here like Ed Slater, Mario Itoje, Slade etc.  

I think it could have quite an experimental look to it. The core RWC squad will have been playing rugby (or being pushed very hard in training) almost non-stop for 20 months so I would expect a lot of players to be given the summer off.

It will be Lancaster's best chance to assess who of the younger players is likely to break through.

If the world cup doesn't go to plan though...and we go out in the qtrs then I think Lancaster (if he's still in the job) will want to make a statement and try to get some confidence quickly.

Another tour of death wouldn't be what he wants.

king_carlos wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Good analysis king_carlos.

Out of all those listed, Yarde is the most disappointing defensively for me. He offers a real physical threat with ball in hand, but shies away from defensive duties. I think his positioning is the problem.

Also, the point in bold I have to say something on. May had to jump out of the line to make up for Haskell's error. That left Rhys Webb undefended and allowed him to stroll in for the try. May seems to burden all of the criticism, and Haskell gets off. May was covering an earlier mistake that an international flanker should not have made.

That aside, I think May's defence (and especially his kick chasing) is high quality for the most part.

Shies away is probably the best way to sum up Yarde's defence. He seems a real confidence player and when that confidence goes he stops looking for work and hides on his wing where he is least effective. Will all is power and athletic ability he needs to be involved in the thick of the action as often as possible. If he can do that I expect things will come together for him and he will have an international future - not many players have run through a McCaw tackle to crash over the line after all!

With May I agree it was Haskell's missed tackle that allowed the try and he was primarily at fault. However May wasn't defending the blindside on his own, Ford was inside him and Faletau was his man after he broke away. May either needed to step in early to make a 2 man tackle with Ford and stop the offload, or he needed to stay wide and cover. In the end he got caught between the two and left Webb to stroll in.

Fair points King-Carlos- there were a lot of people at fault for the try!

Are you a May fan? Or would you be disappointed to see him in the WC squad?

Poorfour wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Poorfour wrote:The fact that so many wingers - most of whom aren't defensive liabilities at club level - are having trouble defending is a puzzling one. Is International defence that much harder for a winger? Or is it something with England's system? If the latter, then we can hope that 2 months of working under the same system will sort them out a bit.

Our defensive system works by flooding the first 10m next to ruck with defenders to stop forward runners making momentum. This lack of momentum is then used to ensure the opposition can't get quick ball. That way if they do try to go wide our centres can rush up to either, force them back inside towards the forwards defending that 10m channel, or make the tackle themselves behind the gainline and try to isolate the runner - this is where Barrit is so useful within our defensive pattern.

The problem with this is that if the opposition do get quick ball we are usually slow to react hence the winger is often caught in the uneviable position of having to deal with an overlap.

I think that the system does expose our wingers a bit given by the time the ball gets to them many players inside them have often already failed. That said they also don't help themselves sometimes by making basic errors such as being hesitant in whether to rush up to cut the move off or stay back. Plus the obvious missed tackles we have seen from a few which are so rarely forgivable at international level.

Good analysis - I hadn't thought of it that way. The system does work well when we're at full strength and Barritt does make a huge difference (which suggests he's a good candidate at 12. And maybe is part of the thinking that has Burgess as a centre for this RWC).

That suggests to me that Wade in particular won't get another look in unless the defensive system changes. The others have occasional lapses, but a system like that exposes positional issues more cruelly than most club systems and Wade would be a real liability covering a wide channel. It also explains why Ashton's defence looks good for Sarries but he's all at sea for England, and why Lancaster prefers wing/fullbacks (more experience of having to cover a wide space and position themselves).

I personally don't think Wade would be exposed any more than Watson, Ashton or Yarde have been within this system. Plus I believe he can offer more ball in hand than those three. Although in a different manner as Watson, Ashton and Yarde have all have good moments, some of them fantastic, in attack for England.

If Lancaster wants wingers who will defend best within this system then I'd suggest Nowell, May and Roko are his best bets.

bluestonevedder wrote:Are you a May fan? Or would you be disappointed to see him in the WC squad?

I'm a big May fan and would be happy to see him in the squad from the options we have.

His basic skills are very good having played in various positions. He has bags of pace and offers a strong kick chaser which with the gameplan we could revert to in a tight RWC game would be very useful.

He hasn't clicked consistently at international level but then neither have any other wingers we have tried. He definitely needs to back himself on the outside and pin his ears back more but other than this I can't really fault his attacking play massively. Then his defensive blunders have often looked like confidence issues, rather than technical ones, such as hesitance in situations such as whether to hang back and drift or rush up.

I'd also like to see him back himself more running the ball back after fielding high balls. He has done well fielding up and unders but IMO has a tendency to immediately look for the pass once he has the ball in his hands - often giving the ball to Brown or Billy V who are then well marked. Again this feels like a confidence issue however.

May - a winger who can defend? No he can't - he's just as bad as the likes of Watson,Ashton and Yarde at international level.

Only Nowell is ahead of the rest.

Perhaps it is the defensive system as you mention king carlos but then Lancaster needs to fix it.

Lancaster dropped May in the 6 nations. One reason must be because his defence was simply not good enough.

Someone should have prevented the Webb try - whether you blame May or not he could have stopped the move, he did not.

Also If May had taken Morisi out of touch in the 78th minute in England vs Italy, England would have had higher points difference than Ireland and would have won the 6 nations - fine margins....

beshocked wrote: May - a winger who can defend? No he can't - he's just as bad as the likes of Watson,Ashton and Yarde at international level.

Only Nowell is ahead of the rest.

Perhaps it is the defensive system as you mention king carlos but then Lancaster needs to fix it.

Lancaster dropped May in the 6 nations. One reason must be because his defence was simply not good enough.

Someone should have prevented the Webb try - whether you blame May or not he could have stopped the move, he did not.

Also If May had taken Morisi out of touch in the 78th minute in England vs Italy, England would have had higher points difference than Ireland and would have won the 6 nations - fine margins....

you last point is a bit silly really, there are probably 100 fine margins over the course of the six nations that resulted in a try being scored either against or for. So to point to one individual one and try to paint it as the reason for losing the six nations is a bit silly imo

I also think that the try he made for Cipriani against the Italians was down to things May can do that the alternatives cannot.

In other words you can put him down for a try lost but he also made a try from nothing, which we would not have scored otherwise.

beshocked wrote: May - a winger who can defend? No he can't - he's just as bad as the likes of Watson,Ashton and Yarde at international level.

Only Nowell is ahead of the rest.

Perhaps it is the defensive system as you mention king carlos but then Lancaster needs to fix it.

Lancaster dropped May in the 6 nations. One reason must be because his defence was simply not good enough.

Someone should have prevented the Webb try - whether you blame May or not he could have stopped the move, he did not.

Also If May had taken Morisi out of touch in the 78th minute in England vs Italy, England would have had higher points difference than Ireland and would have won the 6 nations - fine margins....

I would contend that. I think his positioning and tackling are better than Ashton, Wade and Yarde. May just seems to have developed a tendency to be hesitant when under pressure, particularly in his 22. This to me is more indicative of confidence issues than technical issues. Which should hopefully be easier to fix.

There are arguments to be made that being fallible in your own 22 is synomymous with being a poor defender I accept. But in a discussion of one flawed defender against another, I would take a guy who is sometimes poor on his own line over a player can often be targeted anywhere on the pitch.

As for the Morisi try I have been very critical of May already - let's face it, that tackle looked like May was trying to give Morisi a hug to stop him getting bruised when he put the ball down! Attaching that tackle in particular to us not winning a tournament that close is ridiculous though. By that logic we could attach sole individual blame to just about every player we fielded for missing out on the trophy.

beshocked wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

beshocked wrote:Bigtrevsbigmac Hughes is unproven at international level.

If you say that you believe that Hughes is in better club form than Billy & Ben then you might have a good case but better no 8 at international level? Not a chance.

It would be like saying someone like LCD or George are better than Youngs - well we don't know unless one of them gets tried at international level and showed consistent good form.

Well I have seen both at Wasps and watched Billy's inevitable progress but from what I saw last season Hughes has the edge.
Because one player has played internationally and another hasn't doesn't automatically make them a better player. It is purely an opinion that's all. England will be in a very strong position at 8.

There are plenty of players selected to play for the Lions that imo aren't  better than some that weren't, it's just an opinion & that's what the forum is for surely?

I guess it depends what you mean by "better". Most valuable? The number 8 you would want starting for you? You're a Wasps fan, of course you would pick Hughes.


If Billy wasn't in form you might have a point but Billy was one of the best players in the 6 nations. Also was influential at club level too. Statistically Hughes might have been the best 8 in the AP for the season but a player's value is more than just stats.

Billy was as important to Saracens as Hughes was to Wasps throughout the season. When you look at two in form players you have to look at their achievements too. Hughes is still unproven at international level - it's not possible to tell whether he would be as effective at international level.


You say international form doesn't matter. Not sure people say that about Alex Goode! He's been one of the best full backs at club level in the last few years but hasn't had the same impact at international level.

I guess it depends whether you think international rugby should be important to measuring whether a player is "better" or not.

Beshocked I didn't say international form doesn't matter but because one player is an international doesn't automatically prove that he is a better player than the one that isn't.
Although I accept some players like Goode look sublime in the AP and distinctly average for England.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Cooper-Wooley is a bit of left field call, I didn't think he progressed as well as people thought.

It's a shame Francis hasn't seen the light and decided to play for his country.

He most assuredly has

He's English and plays in England....

and he's decided to play for his country. If the sole requirement choosing one's country was birthplace then most national sides would be half the team they are.

As far as I'm aware he's never played rugby in Wales and says he's English. At least most of these mercenaries actually play in the country they represent. I wouldn't be happy with a Welsh player, playing in Wales, turning out for England. Maybe he's a double agent send in by Stewie?

Oh i see so its okay if you play in the country first; gotcha
Well this guy is so good he is going to play FOR his country first. His choice surely so respect it. Stewie was obviously too shortsighted to see his worth or is so overwhelmed with options that Francis wouldn't get a look in.

He's English, he's not going to play for HIS country. It's really not that hard to understand, Francis was born in England and plays for England. The desperation of Gatland (or the lack of quality in Wales) that they feel the need to scour other leagues/countries for players with any slight link is really sad imo.

I don't know who I feel more sorry for, Francis or the Welsh supporters.

If its good for the goose…..You're right, Manu, Harltey, Barritt, Rokodoguni etc etc aren't going to play for their country either. (the first two for obvious reasons)

Shame Stewie has to scour the whole world to make up the numbers isn't it, which is laughable when England must have the world's biggest player base and obviously a paucity of world class players in various positions. Would love to know the ratios but i can be sure that by comparison England and Wales have nowhere near the same resources to draw on yet what has England produced domestically in silverware in the last few years? Zip.

Just because you play in country doesn't make it yours, in fact i would say eligibility from playing somewhere is less of a 'link' than having family roots in that country as Francis has in Wales.

I think you just feel sorry for yourself because you're missing out and you know it.

Do we know when the seeding is done for RWC 2019? Because we might not want to lose any ranking points before then by sending a young team next summer. It's usually ridiculously early in the cycle isn't it?

That said, if forwards such as Marler, Lawes, Robshaw etc are knackered by the end of the season then we could use the opportunity. A team such as:

Mako
Youngs
Cole
Itoje
Launchbury
Burgess
Clifford
Morgan

Care
Ford
May
Tuilagi
Joseph
Watson
Nowell

...would be exciting to see, giving some of the players who've been on it non-stop at international level for a couple of years a bit of a break.

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Cooper-Wooley is a bit of left field call, I didn't think he progressed as well as people thought.

It's a shame Francis hasn't seen the light and decided to play for his country.

He most assuredly has

He's English and plays in England....

and he's decided to play for his country. If the sole requirement choosing one's country was birthplace then most national sides would be half the team they are.

As far as I'm aware he's never played rugby in Wales and says he's English. At least most of these mercenaries actually play in the country they represent. I wouldn't be happy with a Welsh player, playing in Wales, turning out for England. Maybe he's a double agent send in by Stewie?

Oh i see so its okay if you play in the country first; gotcha
Well this guy is so good he is going to play FOR his country first. His choice surely so respect it. Stewie was obviously too shortsighted to see his worth or is so overwhelmed with options that Francis wouldn't get a look in.

He's English, he's not going to play for HIS country. It's really not that hard to understand, Francis was born in England and plays for England. The desperation of Gatland (or the lack of quality in Wales) that they feel the need to scour other leagues/countries for players with any slight link is really sad imo.

I don't know who I feel more sorry for, Francis or the Welsh supporters.

If its good for the goose…..You're right, Manu, Harltey, Barritt, Rokodoguni etc etc aren't going to play for their country either. (the first two for obvious reasons)

Shame Stewie has to scour the whole world to make up the numbers isn't it, which is laughable when England must have the world's biggest player base and obviously a paucity of world class players in various positions. Would love to know the ratios but i can be sure that by comparison England and Wales have nowhere near the same resources to draw on yet what has England produced domestically in silverware in the last few years? Zip.

Just because you play in country doesn't make it yours, in fact i would say eligibility from playing somewhere is less of a 'link' than having family roots in that country as Francis has in Wales.

I think you just feel sorry for yourself because you're missing out and you know it.

Is this sort of blatant wumming allowed? We are not discussing international eligibility criteria here.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not so sure about Brookes going forward, I think Hill will have his jersey within the year at Saints.

I think Brookes is a good player. Hill though has the potential to be great. It's a long way out, but I'd expect him to be in the 2019 squad.

king_carlos wrote:

I know this has been done to death so will try to keep my response short! Basically I do admit that Wade has poor positioning but just wish Lancaster would accept all his other options, Nowell aside, are poor defensively as well. Breaking down defence into it's most crucial components for a winger, tackling and positioning:

Nowell - Strong in both
Watson - Usually solid in positioning but poor in the tackle
May - Is usually soldid in both but has developed a tendency to fail under pressure in his own 22 - i.e. rushing out the line at Faletau to leave an overlap for a try and failing to tackle Morisi into touch when he should have.
Ashton - Has improved immeasurably in both and is actually very solid in positioning now but is still poor in the tackle.
Yarde - Poor in positioning to the point where he has a tendency to go missing in defence.
Wade - See Yarde.
Rokoduguni - One of the strongest in the tackle with the capability to put big hits in like Nowell due to his power. His postioning is better than Yarde or Wade but still gets caught out more than I'd like in this regard - one of the strongest defensively however.

All of them, Nowell aside, have their issues defensively IMO. Wade however adds the ability to change a game in attack due to his ability to beat a defender in no space at all from anywhere on the pitch.

Watson is a strong man. I expect his tackling will come good, and he'll take over at FB from Brown over the next couple of years. He's also a really exciting attacking talent - maybe not quite the astonishing as Wade can be, but still capable of tearing big holes in sides. Everyone is happy with Nowell as far as I can see. May and Yarde I think are competing for the left-wing slot post WC. I'm fairly relaxed about them - I expect Yarde's defence improve significantly.

GeordieFalcon wrote:It wont be instant marra, Lancaster likes his experienced guys with high cap numbers.

I think it will be a gradual process over the next few seasons.

I think Hartley etc will still be involved straight after the WC.

BUt from the list I wrote :
Davy Wilson - Will be around a while yet.
Easter - Gone
Hartley - Be around for a season or two until LCD can throw.
Parling - Gone we have lots of mobile locks
Attwood - Gone not brought the power game. Hopefully Slater can
Haskell - Superman...sorry Itoje / Burgess (delete as appropriate) , Clifford
Goode - ??
Brown - Be around a while yet until Watson or Nowell show form at 15
Mullan - Auterac if he shows progress and consistency
Barritt - Stephenson, Hill, Slade, Devoto
Twelvetrees - Anyone
Eastmond - Think his size is a problem to Stewie

Assuming we don't win the WC I think SL will throw the kitchen sink at the 6 Nations and then use the summer tour more experimentally.

Having said that I don't think that Easter, Hartley, Goode, Twelvetrees and Eastmond will feature in the 6 Nations unless there is an incredible injury crisis. Possibly Ashton too. Many other players, like Wood and Haskell, may just lose their places over the next 12 months. Despite being a relatively young squad currently there are still enough weaknesses (and enough exciting talent outside of the squad) that I think the 2017 6 Nations Squad will look quite different to the 2015 one and will form the basis of the 2019 WC squad.

DaveM wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Cooper-Wooley is a bit of left field call, I didn't think he progressed as well as people thought.

It's a shame Francis hasn't seen the light and decided to play for his country.

He most assuredly has

He's English and plays in England....

and he's decided to play for his country. If the sole requirement choosing one's country was birthplace then most national sides would be half the team they are.

As far as I'm aware he's never played rugby in Wales and says he's English. At least most of these mercenaries actually play in the country they represent. I wouldn't be happy with a Welsh player, playing in Wales, turning out for England. Maybe he's a double agent send in by Stewie?

Oh i see so its okay if you play in the country first; gotcha
Well this guy is so good he is going to play FOR his country first. His choice surely so respect it. Stewie was obviously too shortsighted to see his worth or is so overwhelmed with options that Francis wouldn't get a look in.

He's English, he's not going to play for HIS country. It's really not that hard to understand, Francis was born in England and plays for England. The desperation of Gatland (or the lack of quality in Wales) that they feel the need to scour other leagues/countries for players with any slight link is really sad imo.

I don't know who I feel more sorry for, Francis or the Welsh supporters.

If its good for the goose…..You're right, Manu, Harltey, Barritt, Rokodoguni etc etc aren't going to play for their country either. (the first two for obvious reasons)

Shame Stewie has to scour the whole world to make up the numbers isn't it, which is laughable when England must have the world's biggest player base and obviously a paucity of world class players in various positions. Would love to know the ratios but i can be sure that by comparison England and Wales have nowhere near the same resources to draw on yet what has England produced domestically in silverware in the last few years? Zip.

Just because you play in country doesn't make it yours, in fact i would say eligibility from playing somewhere is less of a 'link' than having family roots in that country as Francis has in Wales.

I think you just feel sorry for yourself because you're missing out and you know it.

Is this sort of blatant wumming allowed? We are not discussing international eligibility criteria here.

WUM? Dave you'd be wummed by your own shadow.

Ask Sgt Pooly, he introduced it with his remark about Francis

DaveM wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:It wont be instant marra, Lancaster likes his experienced guys with high cap numbers.

I think it will be a gradual process over the next few seasons.

I think Hartley etc will still be involved straight after the WC.

BUt from the list I wrote :
Davy Wilson - Will be around a while yet.
Easter - Gone
Hartley - Be around for a season or two until LCD can throw.
Parling - Gone we have lots of mobile locks
Attwood - Gone not brought the power game. Hopefully Slater can
Haskell - Superman...sorry Itoje / Burgess (delete as appropriate) , Clifford
Goode - ??
Brown - Be around a while yet until Watson or Nowell show form at 15
Mullan - Auterac if he shows progress and consistency
Barritt - Stephenson, Hill, Slade, Devoto
Twelvetrees - Anyone
Eastmond - Think his size is a problem to Stewie

Assuming we don't win the WC I think SL will throw the kitchen sink at the 6 Nations and then use the summer tour more experimentally.

Having said that I don't think that Easter, Hartley, Goode, Twelvetrees and Eastmond will feature in the 6 Nations unless there is an incredible injury crisis. Possibly Ashton too. Many other players, like Wood and Haskell, may just lose their places over the next 12 months. Despite being a relatively young squad currently there are still enough weaknesses (and enough exciting talent outside of the squad) that I think the 2017 6 Nations Squad will look quite different to the 2015 one and will form the basis of the 2019 WC squad.  

Assumes SL will still be coach after this RWC which entirely depends on where they finish. Semi or better has to be the measurement of success as he has nothing else to show for 4 years.

Tom Francis is already an excellent scrummaging tighthead and is no slouch in the loose either. If he hadn't been injured at the time, I'm convinced he would have picked up a Saxons cap last season. As it is, it seems likely, barring injury or a last minute coming to his senses, that he'll tie himself to Wales and will probably be their first choice for a decade.

If he stuck with England, I reckon he'd be in the 23 or thereabouts within 2 years.

The upside, i suppose, is that Wales may change their scrum technique - they'd have to find a decent LH (dunno of any English LH's with a welsh granny, perhaps Jarvis could switch or Fairbrother)) but then they might actually compete instead of looking to con the ref continually.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Tom Francis is already an excellent scrummaging tighthead and is no slouch in the loose either. If he hadn't been injured at the time, I'm convinced he would have picked up a Saxons cap last season. As it is, it seems likely, barring injury or a last minute coming to his senses, that he'll tie himself to Wales and will probably be their first choice for a decade.

If he stuck with England, I reckon he'd be in the 23 or thereabouts within 2 years.

The upside, i suppose, is that Wales may change their scrum technique - they'd have to find a decent LH (dunno of any English LH's with a welsh granny, perhaps Jarvis could switch or Fairbrother)) but then they might actually compete instead of looking to con the ref continually.

Yep Gethin's conned his way to numerous 6 nations and grand slams and an RWC semi. Cheating so and so

Blimey, didn't think it'd be that easy to prise the truth out of you.

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Cooper-Wooley is a bit of left field call, I didn't think he progressed as well as people thought.

It's a shame Francis hasn't seen the light and decided to play for his country.

He most assuredly has

He's English and plays in England....

and he's decided to play for his country. If the sole requirement choosing one's country was birthplace then most national sides would be half the team they are.

As far as I'm aware he's never played rugby in Wales and says he's English. At least most of these mercenaries actually play in the country they represent. I wouldn't be happy with a Welsh player, playing in Wales, turning out for England. Maybe he's a double agent send in by Stewie?

Oh i see so its okay if you play in the country first; gotcha
Well this guy is so good he is going to play FOR his country first. His choice surely so respect it. Stewie was obviously too shortsighted to see his worth or is so overwhelmed with options that Francis wouldn't get a look in.

He's English, he's not going to play for HIS country. It's really not that hard to understand, Francis was born in England and plays for England. The desperation of Gatland (or the lack of quality in Wales) that they feel the need to scour other leagues/countries for players with any slight link is really sad imo.

I don't know who I feel more sorry for, Francis or the Welsh supporters.

If its good for the goose…..You're right, Manu, Harltey, Barritt, Rokodoguni etc etc aren't going to play for their country either. (the first two for obvious reasons)

Shame Stewie has to scour the whole world to make up the numbers isn't it, which is laughable when England must have the world's biggest player base and obviously a paucity of world class players in various positions. Would love to know the ratios but i can be sure that by comparison England and Wales have nowhere near the same resources to draw on yet what has England produced domestically in silverware in the last few years? Zip.

Just because you play in country doesn't make it yours, in fact i would say eligibility from playing somewhere is less of a 'link' than having family roots in that country as Francis has in Wales.

I think you just feel sorry for yourself because you're missing out and you know it.

I always find that an interesting point, I'm not saying this is the case with Francis, but what if his grandmother left Wales as a baby and went to Yorkshire never to return? The family might not have had a link with that country for nearly 100 years. What if she had been born there whilst the family were on holiday (like what happened with Tom Heathcote). I don't think things can be so clear cut. I always feel sorry for 'new world' countries like Australia, South Africa or New Zealand because they can never really solely have a claim on a players allegiance because of the grand parents rule. I would personally be more comfortable with the parent rule, seems much stronger link to me.

Francis is English, there is no real debate. Good luck to the lad anyway, I'm sure he'll regret not knuckling down and attempting to play for his country at some point.

Nathan I agree, there were numerous ifs but nonetheless that was one too. Not saying May cost the 6 nations, I am saying that making a tackle on Morisi might have made England win the 6 nations but then again as you say there were numerous incidents.

lostinwales May helped score a try against Italy when most of the damage had already been done by the rest of the team, oh and let's not forget that Italy are one of the weakest sides in the 6 nations.

1 or 2 good moments in May's international career isn't good enough.

First May dined off the NZ try, now he's dining off one assist vs a demoralised Italy. Need to see more from him.

King carlos I wouldn't say any of them are particularly good defenders. You can quibble about whether May's defence is 4/10 or 5/10, or in your eyes perhaps 6,7 or 8 but in my opinion it's not been good enough.I don't think May's defence is better than his rivals from what I have seen. Even the much maligned Ashton has been shown he can defend in a defensive organisation that looks to nullify his weaknesses.

The main positive I have heard is that May is good at kick chase. Surely any winger could pick up that skill with the training and more co ordination with the other backs?



As for Francis - of course he's English. He's playing for Wales because it's much easier to get into the Welsh side than the English one because of Wales' poor depth. Less competition - Welsh fans have already anointed Francis as a key player. Samson Lee - Wales' current golden child is overrated anyway.

It's like moving to a club to get more gametime but instead of a club it's a country. Better to be a Welsh hero than be just a squad man for England who might or might not get picked.

The Welsh fans won't care that he's English - hasn't bothered them so far! As long as he can scrum well he will be welcomed to the international stage with open arms.

It's just carrying on a tradition of Wales relying on Englishmen to try and win some silverware.