Ireland v Scotland, 15 August

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IRELAND v SCOTLAND
15 August 2015
KO: 17:00 local
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Live on Sky Sports at Notch's house

Referee: Pascal Gaüzère (France)
Assistant Referees: [TBC]
TMO: [TBC]

A. Head to Head

130 Played 130
59 Won 66
5 Drawn 5
66 Lost 59
1,416 Points 1,420

B. Recent Form

21 March 2015
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
10 – 40 to Ireland

2 February 2014
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
28 – 6 to Ireland

24 February 2013
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
12 – 8 to Scotland

10 March 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
32 – 14 to Ireland

6 August 2011
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
10 – 6 to Scotland

27 February 2011
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
18 – 21 to Ireland

20 March 2010
Croke Park, Dublin
20 – 23 to Scotland

C. Teams

IRELAND

15. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
13. Jared Payne (Ulster)
12. Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11. Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock/Leinster)
10. Ian Madigan (Blackrock/Leinster)
09. Isaac Boss (Terenure/Leinster)

08. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster) capt
07. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
06. Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster)*
05. Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
04. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
03. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
02. Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster)
01. Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster)

16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Michael Bent (Dublin University/Leinster)
18. Nathan White (Connacht)*
19. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
22. Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
23. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)

SCOTLAND

15 Ruaridh Jackson  (Wasps)
14 Sean Lamont  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
13 Richie Vernon  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
12 Peter Horne  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
11 Tim Visser  (Harlequins)
10 Greig Tonks  (Edinburgh  Rugby)
09 Henry Pyrgos  CAPTAIN  (Glasgow  Warriors)

01 Ryan Grant  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
02 Fraser Brown  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
03 Jon Welsh  (Newcastle  Falcons)
04 Jim Hamilton  (Saracens)  
05 Grant Gilchrist  (Edinburgh  Rugby)
06 Blair Cowan  (London  Irish)
07 Hugh Blake  (Glasgow  Warriors)
08 David Denton  (Edinburgh  Rugby)  

16 Ross Ford  (Edinburgh  Rugby)
17 Gordon Reid  (Glasgow  Warriors)
18 Mike Cusack  (Glasgow  Warriors)
19 Rob Harley  (Glasgow  Warriors)
20 John Barclay  (Scarlets)  
21 Sam Hidalgo-­Clyne  (Edinburgh  Rugby)
22 Duncan Weir  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
23 Matt  Scott  (Edinburgh  Rugby)

Fitz finally contributes something positive.

Great kick from madigan.

Yeah I am watching this forum for updates from the maternity ward! Go Scotland!

The difference in our attacking play since Reddan came on is huge,Marmion has to get another chance to take the 3rd scrum half spot,Boss just isn't up to the job.

Our defense is a worry,D'Arcy shouldn't travel on this display.

What happened to the penalty for the deliberate knock on

28 - 22 final score Radge. Good luck!

D'Arcy, Boss and Fitzgerald should all be out of the reckoning for me. Zebo cemented his place. Madigan was poor but will still travel, probably as third choice 10. Bowe and Payne very quiet - really whole backline poor apart from Zebo.

Riskysports wrote:What happened to the penalty for the deliberate knock on

It was knock on advantage,wasn't deliberate.

Scotland should be the happier of the two. Thought they attacked really well and Lamont has surely played his way onto the plane!

God those commentators were doing my head in, pretty sure Vern cotter will NOT be please!! Gave away too many good chances and lacked composure in many parts of the game.

How did the Scotland players rate then?

Main thing for me we competed, it could have been closer we left a few points out there. Horne, Jackson, Pyrgos, Denton, Gilchrist, Visser, Lamont, and ryan grant untill the injury all enhanced there reputations.

Thought Blake looked a bit like a rabbit in headlights on occasions but showed bits and bobs.

You could see bits of the Glasgow swagger on occasions the controlled chaos and good running lines. As far as im concerned pass marks.

A closer game points wise than i thought it would be.

After watching Wales v Ireland last week i thought Ireland would have scored more points than to day. Does this show the Scotland are a better side that Wales (the welsh team that) played last week? or was Ireland not has good this week as they was last week?

Artful_Dodger wrote:D'Arcy, Boss and Fitzgerald should all be out of the reckoning for me.  Zebo cemented his place.  Madigan was poor but will still travel, probably as third choice 10.  Bowe and Payne very quiet - really whole backline poor apart from Zebo.

Would agree with most of that,I thought Madigan improved later in the game but his utter refusal to kick when we were going nowhere in the middle of the pitch was frustrating.He kept trying to play it through the hands when it wasn't on.

What I learnt from this...

Madigan is not an international 10 (ok he was good for the last 20 mins but the first 60mins he was poor). Jackson, for me, is the better option to back up Sexton.

Zebo, a player almost forced to play both 15 and 11 today due to Fitz's poor performance. (Fitz will be dropped I feel). Zebo actually looked better at 15 than Kearney has done for some time but we know where Schmidts loyalty lies. Zebo may have actually played Felix out of the squad as back up 15.

Payne-Earls at 13 debate? Earls winning it right now but as much as I want to see him at 13, the best midfield pairing Ireland have would be Cave 12 and Henshaw 13.

D'Arcy... NO, not any more. Once a great player but woefully out of depth now.

POC, well the team simply rise when he arrives. (still think that Irelands up turn in performance under Schmidt has a lot to do with POC's return to the team).

Boss. Thought he was ok but really is a far from third choice, I would love to see Marmion myself.

Toner, really disliked him when he first came on the scene but he has really grown into a great player and a menace at the maul.

Welcome back to Henry, played a quality game.

Schmidt name checking Kearney jnr could be telling.

Golden wrote:Schmidt name checking Kearney jnr could be telling.

Noticed that myself.

Didn't think that Dave Kearney played bad when he came on and I really did not want him to be within 1000 miles of the Irish squad.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:D'Arcy, Boss and Fitzgerald should all be out of the reckoning for me.  Zebo cemented his place.  Madigan was poor but will still travel, probably as third choice 10.  Bowe and Payne very quiet - really whole backline poor apart from Zebo.

Would agree with most of that,I thought Madigan improved later in the game but his utter refusal to kick when we were going nowhere in the middle of the pitch was frustrating.He kept trying to play it through the hands when it wasn't on.

His territorial kicking game is very, very limited. He's an option to bring on at 10 or 12 if we are behind and need to throw caution to the wind. But his kicking game prohibits him from controlling games at 10.

Id say tuohy is firmly behind Ryan now as well. Wasn't terribly impressive today

Artful_Dodger wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:D'Arcy, Boss and Fitzgerald should all be out of the reckoning for me.  Zebo cemented his place.  Madigan was poor but will still travel, probably as third choice 10.  Bowe and Payne very quiet - really whole backline poor apart from Zebo.

Would agree with most of that,I thought Madigan improved later in the game but his utter refusal to kick when we were going nowhere in the middle of the pitch was frustrating.He kept trying to play it through the hands when it wasn't on.

His territorial kicking game is very, very limited.  He's an option to bring on at 10 or 12 if we are behind and need to throw caution to the wind.  But his kicking game prohibits him from controlling games at 10.

What really annoyed me was he didn't even try,if he made intelligent decisions and just executed poorly I'd say fine work on your skills and you can improve.Jackson firmly ahead now,he always has been in my opinion but Madigan missing the relatively easy pressure kick at the end negates the last argument anyone could have for putting him ahead of Jackson.

Golden wrote:Id say tuohy is firmly behind Ryan now as well. Wasn't terribly impressive today

Tuohy was certainly disappointing, particularly missing a few tackles in defense. Advantage Ryan.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:D'Arcy, Boss and Fitzgerald should all be out of the reckoning for me.  Zebo cemented his place.  Madigan was poor but will still travel, probably as third choice 10.  Bowe and Payne very quiet - really whole backline poor apart from Zebo.

Would agree with most of that,I thought Madigan improved later in the game but his utter refusal to kick when we were going nowhere in the middle of the pitch was frustrating.He kept trying to play it through the hands when it wasn't on.

His territorial kicking game is very, very limited.  He's an option to bring on at 10 or 12 if we are behind and need to throw caution to the wind.  But his kicking game prohibits him from controlling games at 10.

Sort of agree with that but with only the 10 part. No way should he be considered as an option at 12, even if behind. His defensive positioning is incredibly poor and I feel that if an opposing team is on top, he will be an extremely weak link at 12 and will not be able to add any expansive options. Great individual player but not an option at 12 in my mind.

Artful_Dodger wrote:D'Arcy, Boss and Fitzgerald should all be out of the reckoning for me.  Zebo cemented his place.  Madigan was poor but will still travel, probably as third choice 10.  Bowe and Payne very quiet - really whole backline poor apart from Zebo.

Why then not Payne and Bowe told to pack their bags for return to Provinces?  This ain't a rehearsal - it's playing for your place.... or should be. Meaning if Bowe and Payne feel they can cruise and still be assured of places then perhaps the three stooges you mention should have the same expectations?

Wasn't able to watch this - but news reports said that Scotland acquitted themselves well. Anyone kind enough do to a reasonably impartial summary of how both sides got on?

My thoughts in a nutshell for Scotland.

Positives
Good when we went through the hands and had some space to play
good at carries into contact and getting over gain line
Some good tackling by most on team
Nice offloading game at times

Negatives
Not winning those 50/50's
Scrum looked weak
Ball carriers often isolated
Terrible under high balls apart from one or two standout catches
Ropey defence in wider channels
Some poor defence towards the end
Terrible defending rolling mauls

My top 5 players

Denton
Tonks
Blake
Lamont
horne

I thought visser and Gilchrist were pretty rusty at times but as game went on they improved. Visser, one second he looked terrorfied to go into contact or grab a high ball, next second he was beating off tackles making a great catch in the air!? Too inconsistent but he improved as he went on.

Denton was obviously the standout, he carried like a champ and his passing has improved!!

Tonks I thought did very well at 10 he has a wonderful pass on him, couple little errors though and a weird high kick that resulted in a try, mainly because every Scottish player seemed scared to win the ball back!?

Honourable mention to Blake who I thought did well and read the game superbly. He is sharp. Probably not gonna travel but I hope he features in 6N, one for the future definitely.

Prygos did well but a little slow at times, lovely try by him.

Overall ratings..

Grant 6/10
Brown 6/10
Welsh 6/10
Hamilton 6/10
Gilchrist 8/10
Cowan 7/10
Blake 8/10
Denton 9.5/10
Prygos 7/10
Tonks 7.5/10
Visser 6.5/10
Horne 6.5/10
Vernon 6/10
Lamont 7.5/10
Jackson 6.5/10

Didn't see enough of it George. But the bits I saw reminded me of that England v France game. One moment Ireland are in for a try the next moment the Scots drive for one. I guess the weirdness of the pre-WC warm-ups continue.

majesticimperialman wrote:A closer game points wise than i thought it would be.

After watching Wales v Ireland last week i thought Ireland would have scored more points than to day. Does this show the Scotland are a better side that Wales (the welsh team that) played last week? or was Ireland not has good this week as they was last week?

Well Scotland were definitely better than Wales, and Ireland were definitely not as good as they were last week.

I feel like the pecking order has been cemented after these two games and a few players have played themselves off the plane.

1) Richardt Strauss definitely a better option than Sean Cronin. Cronin now comfortably 3rd choice.
2) Madigan is more dangerous than Jackson but Jackson still more of a complete 10; Madigan will be bench cover but if anything happens to Jackson he should start ahead of Madigan
3) Isaac Boss definitely 3rd choice 9, we already knew that.
4) Donnacha Ryan is definitely ahead of Dan Tuohy at lock. Tuohy played himself off the plane today in all probability.
5) Darren Cave is definitely ahead of Gordon D'Arcy. If either of them makes it, it should be Cave. Probably Henshaw, Payne, Cave for centres.
6) Zebo can cover fullback, and offers extra options in attack than Jones does. This may allow an extra centre to travel
7) Trimble still looks like the most complete winger. Bowe and Fitzgerald quiet today- I think Earls will go as a player who can cover centre and wing, Zebo as a guy who can cover wing and fullback, Kearney as first choice 15, Trimble and then the last spot is between Bowe, Jones and Fitzgerald- will be a tight call. Bowe is staring down the barrel, he'll be sweating.
8) Front row is difficult because Moore and Healy have not been fit to play. I think its worth waiting to see if Healy can make it with Kilcoyne on standby.
9) In the back row Jack Conan started well and then faded badly. The back row was very good in the first half with Henry, Conan and O'Brien all contributing turnovers at the breakdown. Henry would be under a lot of pressure if O'Donnell hadn't got that injury, but as it is he'll make the cut.

SecretFly wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:D'Arcy, Boss and Fitzgerald should all be out of the reckoning for me.  Zebo cemented his place.  Madigan was poor but will still travel, probably as third choice 10.  Bowe and Payne very quiet - really whole backline poor apart from Zebo.

Why then not Payne and Bowe told to pack their bags for return to Provinces?  This ain't a rehearsal - it's playing for your place.... or should be.  Meaning if Bowe and Payne feel they can cruise and still be assured of places then perhaps the three stooges you mention should have the same expectations?

Well we have to put someone on the plane Fly.

eirebilly wrote:What I learnt from this...

Madigan is not an international 10 (ok he was good for the last 20 mins but the first 60mins he was poor). Jackson, for me, is the better option to back up Sexton.

Zebo, a player almost forced to play both 15 and 11 today due to Fitz's poor performance. (Fitz will be dropped I feel). Zebo actually looked better at 15 than Kearney has done for some time but we know where Schmidts loyalty lies. Zebo may have actually played Felix out of the squad as back up 15.

Payne-Earls at 13 debate? Earls winning it right now but as much as I want to see him at 13, the best midfield pairing Ireland have would be Cave 12 and Henshaw 13.

D'Arcy... NO, not any more. Once a great player but woefully out of depth now.

POC, well the team simply rise when he arrives. (still think that Irelands up turn in performance under Schmidt has a lot to do with POC's return to the team).

Boss. Thought he was ok but really is a far from third choice, I would love to see Marmion myself.

Toner, really disliked him when he first came on the scene but he has really grown into a great player and a menace at the maul.

Welcome back to Henry, played a quality game.

It obviously helps when you have a world class player but PoC has been around a long time and Ireland have never been as consistently good as they have under Schmidt even with PoC and BoD at their peak.

SecretFly wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:D'Arcy, Boss and Fitzgerald should all be out of the reckoning for me.  Zebo cemented his place.  Madigan was poor but will still travel, probably as third choice 10.  Bowe and Payne very quiet - really whole backline poor apart from Zebo.

Why then not Payne and Bowe told to pack their bags for return to Provinces?  This ain't a rehearsal - it's playing for your place.... or should be.  Meaning if Bowe and Payne feel they can cruise and still be assured of places then perhaps the three stooges you mention should have the same expectations?

Bowe and Payne are established first choice, I don't think that makes them immune but they aren't fighting for a place on the plane to the same extent as Boss, D'Arcy and Fitzgerald. Who all really needed to do something today. Besides that, Bowe got absolutely nothing to work with but unlike Fitzgerald didn't make an error every other time he touched the ball. Payne was really crippled by the two men inside him and that thwarted his ability to provide the back 3 with anything. I accept Payne and Bowe were poor, but in the context of the game and the overall standing in the squad its not the same as the three guys I've mentioned who really needed to do something for a place.

Quite a scrappy game in fairness, a lot of errors with the ball and in defence. Ireland's better set piece being the difference. Scotland looked better with the ball, and combined well a few times. Ireland played well in the 1st and 4th quarters, where Scotland took 2 and 3.

From an Ireland point of view, some players played themselves off the plane. Boss, D'Arcy and Fitz, the 1st 2 being a clear level below international standard.

Closer than I thought, but that is because I underestimated Scotland and over estimated Ireland.

Try highlights

http://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-union/9951765/ireland-28-22-scotland

I forgot to say, Dave Kearney did do well. I feel like him, Bowe, Fitzgerald, Jones, McFadden and Fitzgerald are all going for one spot.

Notch wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:A closer game points wise than i thought it would be.

After watching Wales v Ireland last week i thought Ireland would have scored more points than to day. Does this show the Scotland are a better side that Wales (the welsh team that) played last week? or was Ireland not has good this week as they was last week?

Well Scotland were definitely better than Wales, and Ireland were definitely not as good as they were last week.

I feel like the pecking order has been cemented after these two games and a few players have played themselves off the plane.

1) Richardt Strauss definitely a better option than Sean Cronin. Cronin now comfortably 3rd choice.
2) Madigan is more dangerous than Jackson but Jackson still more of a complete 10; Madigan will be bench cover but if anything happens to Jackson he should start ahead of Madigan
3) Isaac Boss definitely 3rd choice 9, we already knew that.
4) Donnacha Ryan is definitely ahead of Dan Tuohy at lock. Tuohy played himself off the plane today in all probability.
5) Darren Cave is definitely ahead of Gordon D'Arcy. If either of them makes it, it should be Cave. Probably Henshaw, Payne, Cave for centres.
6) Zebo can cover fullback, and offers extra options in attack than Jones does. This may allow an extra centre to travel
7) Trimble still looks like the most complete winger. Bowe and Fitzgerald quiet today- I think Earls will go as a player who can cover centre and wing, Zebo as a guy who can cover wing and fullback, Kearney as first choice 15, Trimble and then the last spot is between Bowe, Jones and Fitzgerald- will be a tight call. Bowe is staring down the barrel, he'll be sweating.
8) Front row is difficult because Moore and Healy have not been fit to play. I think its worth waiting to see if Healy can make it with Kilcoyne on standby.
9) In the back row Jack Conan started well and then faded badly. The back row was very good in the first half with Henry, Conan and O'Brien all contributing turnovers at the breakdown. Henry would be under a lot of pressure if O'Donnell hadn't got that injury, but as it is he'll make the cut.

I'd be hoping Marmion gets a chance to make him 4th choice.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Notch wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:A closer game points wise than i thought it would be.

After watching Wales v Ireland last week i thought Ireland would have scored more points than to day. Does this show the Scotland are a better side that Wales (the welsh team that) played last week? or was Ireland not has good this week as they was last week?

Well Scotland were definitely better than Wales, and Ireland were definitely not as good as they were last week.

I feel like the pecking order has been cemented after these two games and a few players have played themselves off the plane.

1) Richardt Strauss definitely a better option than Sean Cronin. Cronin now comfortably 3rd choice.
2) Madigan is more dangerous than Jackson but Jackson still more of a complete 10; Madigan will be bench cover but if anything happens to Jackson he should start ahead of Madigan
3) Isaac Boss definitely 3rd choice 9, we already knew that.
4) Donnacha Ryan is definitely ahead of Dan Tuohy at lock. Tuohy played himself off the plane today in all probability.
5) Darren Cave is definitely ahead of Gordon D'Arcy. If either of them makes it, it should be Cave. Probably Henshaw, Payne, Cave for centres.
6) Zebo can cover fullback, and offers extra options in attack than Jones does. This may allow an extra centre to travel
7) Trimble still looks like the most complete winger. Bowe and Fitzgerald quiet today- I think Earls will go as a player who can cover centre and wing, Zebo as a guy who can cover wing and fullback, Kearney as first choice 15, Trimble and then the last spot is between Bowe, Jones and Fitzgerald- will be a tight call. Bowe is staring down the barrel, he'll be sweating.
8) Front row is difficult because Moore and Healy have not been fit to play. I think its worth waiting to see if Healy can make it with Kilcoyne on standby.
9) In the back row Jack Conan started well and then faded badly. The back row was very good in the first half with Henry, Conan and O'Brien all contributing turnovers at the breakdown. Henry would be under a lot of pressure if O'Donnell hadn't got that injury, but as it is he'll make the cut.

I'd be hoping Marmion gets a chance to make him 4th choice.

Same, bring Marmion back in.

Weird report from Cummiskey who spends half of it talking about how good Payne was;

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/ireland-s-second-string-tie-up-victory-over-scotland-despite-slips-1.2318622

I didn't think Payne did badly, or much wrong at all with what he was given, but surely he was a peripheral figure?

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Bowe and Payne are established first choice.

I think that's a very strong statement, Dodger.  

With Payne... I'd give him a certain sleeping berth on that short plane trip to the WC.  Bowe is a strange character though in that some of us see him operating in recent times and think he's the beez neez... others of us think he has been decided under best form and requires a big hoosh in wing 'presence' to prove his worth again.

If Schmidt has him keeping wraps on Real form then fair enough - then Schmidt knows what he can do in training.  But what I've been seeing on gameday would lead me to question that 'first choice' certainty.

bsando wrote:My thoughts in a nutshell for Scotland.

Positives
Good when we went through the hands and had some space to play
good at carries into contact and getting over gain line
Some good tackling by most on team
Nice offloading game at times

Negatives
Not winning those 50/50's
Scrum looked weak
Ball carriers often isolated
Terrible under high balls apart from one or two standout catches
Ropey defence in wider channels
Some poor defence towards the end
Terrible defending rolling mauls

My top 5 players

Denton
Tonks
Blake
Lamont
horne

I thought visser and Gilchrist were pretty rusty at times but as game went on they improved. Visser, one second he looked terrorfied to go into contact or grab a high ball, next second he was beating off tackles making a great catch in the air!? Too inconsistent but he improved as he went on.

Denton was obviously the standout, he carried like a champ and his passing has improved!!

Tonks I thought did very well at 10 he has a wonderful pass on him, couple little errors though and a weird high kick that resulted in a try, mainly because every Scottish player seemed scared to win the ball back!?

Honourable mention to Blake who I thought did well and read the game superbly. He is sharp. Probably not gonna travel but I hope he features in 6N, one for the future definitely.

Prygos did well but a little slow at times, lovely try by him.

Overall ratings..

Grant 6/10
Brown 6/10
Welsh 6/10
Hamilton 6/10
Gilchrist 8/10
Cowan 7/10
Blake 8/10
Denton 9.5/10
Prygos 7/10
Tonks 7.5/10
Visser 6.5/10
Horne 6.5/10
Vernon 6/10
Lamont 7.5/10
Jackson 6.5/10

Excellent - thanks.

V bad news for Ryan Grant, I heard. Do we think that it's a fracture?

SecretFly wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Bowe and Payne are established first choice.

I think that's a very strong statement, Dodger.  

With Payne... I'd give him a certain sleeping berth on that short plane trip to the WC.  Bowe is a strange character though in that some of us see him operating in recent times and think he's the beez neez... others of us think he has been decided under best form and requires a big hoosh in wing 'presence' to prove his worth again.

If Schmidt has him keeping wraps on Real form then fair enough - then Schmidt knows what he can do in training.  But what I've been seeing on gameday would lead me to question that 'first choice' certainty.

There is nothing strange about it. Bowe started every 6N match at 14 and Payne started every 6N match at 13. That is what I am talking about when I say established first choice - of course they are first choice. Again I think that can change in these warm ups. But its not the same as guys like Fitzgerald who really needed something very special today given his competition.

My only feeling after that game today was that nobody's fighting for a place on the final squad, in fact there were a few players looking like they were trying to earn an early exit. Ploddingly slow and in parts completely uninterested was the name of the game for those in green this afternoon.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Bowe and Payne are established first choice.

I think that's a very strong statement, Dodger.  

With Payne... I'd give him a certain sleeping berth on that short plane trip to the WC.  Bowe is a strange character though in that some of us see him operating in recent times and think he's the beez neez... others of us think he has been decided under best form and requires a big hoosh in wing 'presence' to prove his worth again.

If Schmidt has him keeping wraps on Real form then fair enough - then Schmidt knows what he can do in training.  But what I've been seeing on gameday would lead me to question that 'first choice' certainty.

There is nothing strange about it.  Bowe started every 6N match at 14 and Payne started every 6N match at 13.  That is what I am talking about when I say established first choice - of course they are first choice.  Again I think that can change in these warm ups.  But its not the same as guys like Fitzgerald who really needed something very special today given his competition.

Not trying to labour this bit, but it's just an interesting perspective. One competition at a time. Trimble and D Kearney were big parts of the 6N before the last one, same result. Neither of them appeared in this year's run.
So one competition at a time. Schmidt himself said what you did last year or month won't heavily influence the choosing of you in the following months. There are a few nailed ons of course if they keep free of injury (POC, Heaslip, SOB, Sexton and Murray for example). But I think the rest should feel the always present need to impress.

Disappointing to hear we were crap under the high ball, especially since we were so bad in the 6N - obviously haven't learnt our lessons. High ball catching is a relatively easy skill to work on too.

Was it because we didn't have a proper fullback?

SecretFly wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Bowe and Payne are established first choice.

I think that's a very strong statement, Dodger.  

With Payne... I'd give him a certain sleeping berth on that short plane trip to the WC.  Bowe is a strange character though in that some of us see him operating in recent times and think he's the beez neez... others of us think he has been decided under best form and requires a big hoosh in wing 'presence' to prove his worth again.

If Schmidt has him keeping wraps on Real form then fair enough - then Schmidt knows what he can do in training.  But what I've been seeing on gameday would lead me to question that 'first choice' certainty.

There is nothing strange about it.  Bowe started every 6N match at 14 and Payne started every 6N match at 13.  That is what I am talking about when I say established first choice - of course they are first choice.  Again I think that can change in these warm ups.  But its not the same as guys like Fitzgerald who really needed something very special today given his competition.

Not trying to labour this bit, but it's just an interesting perspective.  One competition at a time.  Trimble and D Kearney were big parts of the 6N before the last one, same result. Neither of them appeared in this year's run.  
So one competition at a time.  Schmidt himself said what you did last year or month won't heavily influence the choosing of you in the following months.  There are a few nailed ons of course if they keep free of injury (POC, Heaslip, SOB, Sexton and Murray for example).  But I think the rest should feel the always present need to impress.

From what I can recall they were both (Trimble and D. Kearney) injured at the start of the 6N - Trimble definitely and didn't Dave pick up a knock in the draw with Wasps which pretty much ruled him out of the start? I think everyone does need to impress at every opportunity, but as you've intimated there is more pressure on some than others. In the same way as there is more pressure on Tuohy to perform than there is on Paul O'Connell. There was much more riding on today for D'Arcy than there was for Payne.

Pete330v2 wrote:My only feeling after that game today was that nobody's fighting for a place on the final squad, in fact there were a few players looking like they were trying to earn an early exit. Ploddingly slow and in parts completely uninterested was the name of the game for those in green this afternoon.

Like I said earlier, I didn't see enough of the game to make a judgement but your reading actually eases my mind a little as I try to guess performance and look at the scoreline. I suppose four tries in a game where the Irish looked uninterested, and presumably the Scots were playing far more promisingly in the minds of their fans, is not a disaster.
Schmidt was mentioning that he didn't get much from the Welsh game...intimating that he'd have preferred more pressure from the opponents. Maybe he expected such a game from the Welsh. But there are also methods of limiting your gameplan to bring pressure onto yourself.... to test players under such conditions. Might there have been an aspect of that in the game?

Kilcoyne 7 - Excellent in the loose but a stricter ref might pull him more on not scrumming straight. Looks like a definite in the 31 but more likely to be on the bench than a starter.

Cronin 6 - Rusty, but improved as the game went on. Too frenetic at times but took his try well.

Ross 8 - as a TH does everything expected and had Grant in all sorts of trouble. He even made a few tackles in the loose.

Tuohy 5 - put himself about but missed too many tackles for me. Was OK but only OK behind Ryan for the plane.

Toner 6 - Good outing for the big lad in the set piece. Didn't notice him too much in the loose but he is a cast iron selection.

Conan 6 - Looked a bit shocked at the start but grew into the game which was a great sign. Now ready yet but not far off either.

Henry 8 - Really good performance from him playing with his head. Booked his place in the squad

SOB 7 - A few times he looked like a flanker playing 8 due to unfamiliarity at this level. Other times he made great decisions. An option at 8 rather than a threat to Heaslip.

Boss 4 - too much was slightly off. Some of his passing loss momentum, some of his kicks were the wrong distance. Even though he knows Sexton's game Joe should take Marmion instead.

Madigan 5 - Showed very little control or direction. Uber conservative with his line kicks and didn't offer SOB any enthusiasm for a shot at the longer penalties. Woeful restart somewhat ameliorated by the pinpoint kick for Fitgerald's try which had zero pressure as the penalty had already been called. Missed too many tackles to to be considered a centre but is a great last 20 option.

Fitzgerald 4 - very disappointing apart from the try. Weak in defence and looked out of tune with the rest of the backline.

D'Arcy 4 - Doesn't offer anything in attack and didn't offer much in defence judging by the missed tackles today.

Payne 6 - Didn't show any attacking flair again but was very solid in his tackling and often was the fill-in player to secure ball.

Bowe 5 - Did what was asked of him but didn't look exceptional in anything either. Hasn't booked his place as yet.

Zebo 8 - Like SOB was unfamiliar with his position and he messed up a couple of link moves either passing too early or too late - Shaggy called it right after the game. He showed that he can play 15 though and I really liked the way he is starting to look around him to see where he is needed - one time Boss made a daft run with no support and Zebo piled in to secure the ball which was good awareness.


Replacements:
Strauss 6 - may have overtaken Cronin
White 6 - good debut, inspired more confidence than either Rodney Ah No or Archer
POC is above having a number beside his name
Reddan 6 - made a difference
DKearney 6 - immediate positive impact
Murphy, Bent, Jackson - didn't notice so say 5.

MOTM: SOB
Played well: Kilcoyne, Zebo
Played alright: Conan, Payne, Madigan
Poor game: D'Arcy, Ross, Cronin, Tuohy, Toner, Henry, Fitzgerald, Bowe
Sh!te: Boss


Best thing about the match was no injuries.
Second best thing is it lowers expectations.

profitius wrote:MOTM: SOB
Played well: Kilcoyne, Zebo
Played alright: Conan, Payne, Madigan
Poor game: D'Arcy, Ross, Cronin, Tuohy, Toner, Henry, Fitzgerald, Bowe
Sh!te: Boss


Best thing about the match was no injuries.
Second best thing is it lowers expectations.

Very harsh on Henry, Toner and Ross and pretty kind to Madigan in my opinion.

The Great Aukster wrote:Kilcoyne 7 - Excellent in the loose but a stricter ref might pull him more on not scrumming straight. Looks like a definite in the 31 but more likely to be on the bench than a starter.

Cronin 6 - Rusty, but improved as the game went on. Too frenetic at times but took his try well.

Ross 8 - as a TH does everything expected and had Grant in all sorts of trouble. He even made a few tackles in the loose.

Tuohy 5 - put himself about but missed too many tackles for me. Was OK but only OK behind Ryan for the plane.

Toner 6 - Good outing for the big lad in the set piece. Didn't notice him too much in the loose but he is a cast iron selection.

Conan 6 - Looked a bit shocked at the start but grew into the game which was a great sign. Now ready yet but not far off either.

Henry 8 - Really good performance from him playing with his head. Booked his place in the squad

SOB 7 - A few times he looked like a flanker playing 8 due to unfamiliarity at this level. Other times he made great decisions. An option at 8 rather than a threat to Heaslip.

Boss 4 - too much was slightly off. Some of his passing loss momentum, some of his kicks were the wrong distance. Even though he knows Sexton's game Joe should take Marmion instead.

Madigan 5 - Showed very little control or direction. Uber conservative with his line kicks and didn't offer SOB any enthusiasm for a shot at the longer penalties. Woeful restart somewhat ameliorated by the pinpoint kick for Fitgerald's try which had zero pressure as the penalty had already been called. Missed too many tackles to to be considered a centre but is a great last 20 option.

Fitzgerald 4 - very disappointing apart from the try. Weak in defence and looked out of tune with the rest of the backline.

D'Arcy 4 - Doesn't offer anything in attack and didn't offer much in defence judging by the missed tackles today.

Payne 6 - Didn't show any attacking flair again but was very solid in his tackling and often was the fill-in player to secure ball.

Bowe 5 - Did what was asked of him but didn't look exceptional in anything either. Hasn't booked his place as yet.

Zebo 8 - Like SOB was unfamiliar with his position and he messed up a couple of link moves either passing too early or too late - Shaggy called it right after the game. He showed that he can play 15 though and I really liked the way he is starting to look around him to see where he is needed - one time Boss made a daft run with no support and Zebo piled in to secure the ball which was good awareness.


Replacements:
Strauss 6 - may have overtaken Cronin
White 6 - good debut, inspired more confidence than either Rodney Ah No or Archer
POC is above having a number beside his name
Reddan 6 - made a difference
DKearney 6 - immediate positive impact
Murphy, Bent, Jackson - didn't notice so say 5.

I pretty much agree on all fronts. Boss, D'Arcy and Fitzgerald the big losers.

profitius wrote:MOTM: SOB
Played well: Kilcoyne, Zebo
Played alright: Conan, Payne, Madigan
Poor game: D'Arcy, Ross, Cronin, Tuohy, Toner, Henry, Fitzgerald, Bowe
Sh!te: Boss


Best thing about the match was no injuries.
Second best thing is it lowers expectations.

Thought Henry had a decent game myself. Ross too did as much as he ever does.

Zebo entered the line a lot more then Kearney or Jones I thought. Hope he travels.