Ireland v Scotland, 15 August

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IRELAND v SCOTLAND
15 August 2015
KO: 17:00 local
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Live on Sky Sports at Notch's house

Referee: Pascal Gaüzère (France)
Assistant Referees: [TBC]
TMO: [TBC]

A. Head to Head

130 Played 130
59 Won 66
5 Drawn 5
66 Lost 59
1,416 Points 1,420

B. Recent Form

21 March 2015
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
10 – 40 to Ireland

2 February 2014
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
28 – 6 to Ireland

24 February 2013
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
12 – 8 to Scotland

10 March 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
32 – 14 to Ireland

6 August 2011
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
10 – 6 to Scotland

27 February 2011
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
18 – 21 to Ireland

20 March 2010
Croke Park, Dublin
20 – 23 to Scotland

C. Teams

IRELAND

15. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
13. Jared Payne (Ulster)
12. Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11. Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock/Leinster)
10. Ian Madigan (Blackrock/Leinster)
09. Isaac Boss (Terenure/Leinster)

08. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster) capt
07. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
06. Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster)*
05. Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
04. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
03. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
02. Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster)
01. Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster)

16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Michael Bent (Dublin University/Leinster)
18. Nathan White (Connacht)*
19. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
22. Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
23. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)

SCOTLAND

15 Ruaridh Jackson  (Wasps)
14 Sean Lamont  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
13 Richie Vernon  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
12 Peter Horne  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
11 Tim Visser  (Harlequins)
10 Greig Tonks  (Edinburgh  Rugby)
09 Henry Pyrgos  CAPTAIN  (Glasgow  Warriors)

01 Ryan Grant  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
02 Fraser Brown  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
03 Jon Welsh  (Newcastle  Falcons)
04 Jim Hamilton  (Saracens)  
05 Grant Gilchrist  (Edinburgh  Rugby)
06 Blair Cowan  (London  Irish)
07 Hugh Blake  (Glasgow  Warriors)
08 David Denton  (Edinburgh  Rugby)  

16 Ross Ford  (Edinburgh  Rugby)
17 Gordon Reid  (Glasgow  Warriors)
18 Mike Cusack  (Glasgow  Warriors)
19 Rob Harley  (Glasgow  Warriors)
20 John Barclay  (Scarlets)  
21 Sam Hidalgo-­Clyne  (Edinburgh  Rugby)
22 Duncan Weir  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
23 Matt  Scott  (Edinburgh  Rugby)

Notch wrote:Obviously Earls is more dangerous than Payne in space with maybe one man to beat but it would be a nonsense wasting him at outside centre when 90% of your job there is crash ball and get it back quickly to create space for the guys with pace out wide. And when you do get through the midfield defence where do you want him to be- making the initial break where he needs to find his support runner, or being that support runner? Really you're not looking for those major line breaks every phase. If you make 10 yards and get hauled down thats fantastic because that makes it hard for the opposition defence to reset itself and at that point- thats where you want the ball to get to a player like Earls coming from deeper.

In the really tight test matches where the defence is properly organised your outside centre is only going to get through the midfield defence completely cleanly about once every couple of games and at that point it's his job to find a supporting runner so it's more important that he

a) Have the ability to make yards in contact
b) Be able to link well with the players outside and inside him
c) Have the awareness to know when to give the pass and what pass to choose

Also, if we move Earls inside we have to pick a left winger who is not as good as him to fill his place. He's the second best winger in the squad. Seems mad not to use him there.

Its only crash ball because of the personnel available. The previous centre partnershp were not crash ball merchants.

This is what Ronan O'Gara said about Earls last year (he was tipping him to be Ireland No 13 for world cup).

ronan o'gara wrote:He is the one person who has schooled Brian O’Driscoll in training throughout his career. He has the speed, the agility, the balance, the step, the acceleration. Defensively in the 13 channel, it’s as much about technique as it is size.

Notch wrote:

Munchkin wrote:
Payne doesn't seem to chat much. Strange when you think that he captained Northland, but if he was playing as Schmidt wanted him to play, I don't doubt that he was, then surely that's enough. He isn't BOD.

I don't know where this comes from, because if you watch him for Ulster he is one of the most vocal players on the pitch.

I've seen him chat at Ulster, but being really chatty doesn't strike a chord with me. Maybe I just don't notice as much as you.

No, it's crash ball because of the tendency for international defences to rush up into the midfield to cut off service to the wings. The centres are targeted by defences and this means that they have less time and are less likely to be able to manufacture a clean break. This is why the current emphasis is on centres who can still make it across the mainline in these circumstances; strong in contact, yet still able to link with the men outside them.

If you don't remember we actually had massive problems in the last few years of BODs career because we weren't making yards through the centre.

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Guys just looking at some of the stats that have come out.  For all the talk of Payne being poor - like in the 6N he is a defensive brick wall.  He made 13 tackles today and missed 0.  Whilst he didn't offer that much going forward - I would attribute most of that to those inside him giving him no ball - he doesn't put a foot wrong in what is widely regarded as the hardest position to defend.

PS:

I realize I said Payne was poor enough above - but like the 6N, I think he is being directed to play a primarily defensive game.  With Sexton and Henshaw inside him again we will see more in attack from him as we started to see towards the end of the 6N.

Completely agree. contrary to some opinions, Payne had a good game. In fact when you consider the amount of missed tackles throughout the team you could say Payne had a great game.

Payne did fine in that he made all his tackles. But he could have done a lot more in organising the defence and provide a bit of leadership in the backs.

Do you think so? Genuine question. Can you provide an example? With Darcy inside him and Madigan at 10, I'm not sure he could have done much more.

Payne doesn't talk on the pitch (and neither did anyone else yesterday). Like say sorting out the defensive line, if there are defensive gaps, someone should be shouting to fill them (you would always see Brian O'Driscoll very vocal). Kearney & Jones are both vocal.

I actually thought Madigan did well yesterday (considering who he had on either side of him).

Payne doesn't seem to chat much. Strange when you think that he captained Northland, but if he was playing as Schmidt wanted him to play, I don't doubt that he was, then surely that's enough. He isn't BOD.

You think he told Payne to be just defend and he told Earls to attack? Don't think so.

Earls could tear drift defences apart. But he's not going to have the impact you think he will because he'll not have the time on the ball to show it- unless he's played in his best position.

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Guys just looking at some of the stats that have come out.  For all the talk of Payne being poor - like in the 6N he is a defensive brick wall.  He made 13 tackles today and missed 0.  Whilst he didn't offer that much going forward - I would attribute most of that to those inside him giving him no ball - he doesn't put a foot wrong in what is widely regarded as the hardest position to defend.

PS:

I realize I said Payne was poor enough above - but like the 6N, I think he is being directed to play a primarily defensive game.  With Sexton and Henshaw inside him again we will see more in attack from him as we started to see towards the end of the 6N.

Completely agree. contrary to some opinions, Payne had a good game. In fact when you consider the amount of missed tackles throughout the team you could say Payne had a great game.

Payne did fine in that he made all his tackles. But he could have done a lot more in organising the defence and provide a bit of leadership in the backs.

Do you think so? Genuine question. Can you provide an example? With Darcy inside him and Madigan at 10, I'm not sure he could have done much more.

Payne doesn't talk on the pitch (and neither did anyone else yesterday). Like say sorting out the defensive line, if there are defensive gaps, someone should be shouting to fill them (you would always see Brian O'Driscoll very vocal). Kearney & Jones are both vocal.

I actually thought Madigan did well yesterday (considering who he had on either side of him).

Payne doesn't seem to chat much. Strange when you think that he captained Northland, but if he was playing as Schmidt wanted him to play, I don't doubt that he was, then surely that's enough. He isn't BOD.

You think he told Payne to be just defend and he told Earls to attack? Don't think so.

Don't know what he told them. Two very different games though. Earls had an easier time of it than Payne did.

Notch wrote:No, it's crash ball because of the tendency for international defences to rush up into the midfield to cut off service to the wings. The centres are targeted by defences and this means that they have less time and are less likely to be able to manufacture a clean break. This is why the current emphasis is on centres who can still make it across the mainline in these circumstances; strong in contact, yet still able to link with the men outside them.

If you don't remember we actually had massive problems in the last few years of BODs career because we weren't making yards through the centre.

The preference now seems to be going away from big lumps (more agile players can beat a player) for example, Mama Nonu and Conrad Smith.

I think Earls is fairly strong in contact by the way - Shane Williams made that comment last week.

Notch wrote:Earls could tear drift defences apart. But he's not going to have the impact you think he will because he'll not have the time on the ball to show it- unless he's played in his best position.

Eh, it seems he could do it against the best defensive centre of the professional era:

ronan o'gara wrote:
He is the one person who has schooled Brian O’Driscoll in training throughout his career. He has the speed, the agility, the balance, the step, the acceleration. Defensively in the 13 channel, it’s as much about technique as it is size.

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Earls could tear drift defences apart. But he's not going to have the impact you think he will because he'll not have the time on the ball to show it- unless he's played in his best position.

Eh, it seems he could do it against the best defensive centre of the professional era:

ronan o'gara wrote:
He is the one person who has schooled Brian O’Driscoll in training throughout his career. He has the speed, the agility, the balance, the step, the acceleration. Defensively in the 13 channel, it’s as much about technique as it is size.

He also said this in the same article:

"People still underestimate Gordon D’Arcy, even at this advanced stage of his career. But he is a man who can match his southern hemisphere equivalents physically."

No he can't.

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Earls could tear drift defences apart. But he's not going to have the impact you think he will because he'll not have the time on the ball to show it- unless he's played in his best position.

Eh, it seems he could do it against the best defensive centre of the professional era:

ronan o'gara wrote:
He is the one person who has schooled Brian O’Driscoll in training throughout his career. He has the speed, the agility, the balance, the step, the acceleration. Defensively in the 13 channel, it’s as much about technique as it is size.

He also said this in the same article:

"People still underestimate Gordon D’Arcy, even at this advanced stage of his career. But he is a man who can match his southern hemisphere equivalents physically."

No he can't.

That article was written in Nov 2014.

Feck me you Irish can talk a lot about a single issue!

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Earls could tear drift defences apart. But he's not going to have the impact you think he will because he'll not have the time on the ball to show it- unless he's played in his best position.

Eh, it seems he could do it against the best defensive centre of the professional era:

ronan o'gara wrote:
He is the one person who has schooled Brian O’Driscoll in training throughout his career. He has the speed, the agility, the balance, the step, the acceleration. Defensively in the 13 channel, it’s as much about technique as it is size.

He also said this in the same article:

"People still underestimate Gordon D’Arcy, even at this advanced stage of his career. But he is a man who can match his southern hemisphere equivalents physically."


No he can't.

That article was written in Nov 2014.

Yep, Darcy was of course a much, much younger man 9 months ago. It was an age ago. It's got a beard as long as Darcy's was.

Sooooo you're admitting that your quote of O'Gara's, as for back as 9 months ago, is now too old to be relevant. Good man  

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Earls could tear drift defences apart. But he's not going to have the impact you think he will because he'll not have the time on the ball to show it- unless he's played in his best position.

Eh, it seems he could do it against the best defensive centre of the professional era:

ronan o'gara wrote:
He is the one person who has schooled Brian O’Driscoll in training throughout his career. He has the speed, the agility, the balance, the step, the acceleration. Defensively in the 13 channel, it’s as much about technique as it is size.

He also said this in the same article:

"People still underestimate Gordon D’Arcy, even at this advanced stage of his career. But he is a man who can match his southern hemisphere equivalents physically."


No he can't.

That article was written in Nov 2014.

Yep, Darcy was of course a much, much younger man 9 months ago. It was an age ago. It's got a beard as long as Darcy's was.
Sooooo you're admitting that your quote of O'Gara's, as for back as 9 months ago, is now to old to be relevant. Good man  

If Keith Earls was 35 and his form had disimproved the quote would have been too old to be relevant, but Earls' form is really good. MOTM last week given by Welsh commentators

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Notch wrote:Earls could tear drift defences apart. But he's not going to have the impact you think he will because he'll not have the time on the ball to show it- unless he's played in his best position.

Eh, it seems he could do it against the best defensive centre of the professional era:

ronan o'gara wrote:
He is the one person who has schooled Brian O’Driscoll in training throughout his career. He has the speed, the agility, the balance, the step, the acceleration. Defensively in the 13 channel, it’s as much about technique as it is size.

He also said this in the same article:

"People still underestimate Gordon D’Arcy, even at this advanced stage of his career. But he is a man who can match his southern hemisphere equivalents physically."


No he can't.

That article was written in Nov 2014.

Yep, Darcy was of course a much, much younger man 9 months ago. It was an age ago. It's got a beard as long as Darcy's was.
Sooooo you're admitting that your quote of O'Gara's, as for back as 9 months ago, is now to old to be relevant. Good man  

If Keith Earls was 35 and his form had disimproved the quote would have been too old to be relevant, but Earls' form is really good. MOTM last week given by Welsh commentators  

And of course Darcy could have matched his SH peers, physically, 9 months ago. Should have been him playing alongside Payne, not that young pretender Henshaw.

Notch wrote:No, it's crash ball because of the tendency for international defences to rush up into the midfield to cut off service to the wings. The centres are targeted by defences and this means that they have less time and are less likely to be able to manufacture a clean break. This is why the current emphasis is on centres who can still make it across the mainline in these circumstances; strong in contact, yet still able to link with the men outside them.

If you don't remember we actually had massive problems in the last few years of BODs career because we weren't making yards through the centre.

I agree with elements of this post, but I think this year has proven for quite a number of teams that quick feet and acceleration are more effective means to splitting open a midfield than big crash ball centres:

England - JJ over Tuilagi
South Africa - Kriel over De Villiers
France - anyone over fat Bastareaud

More line breaks are going to happen this way and open up the wider channels. The reason we had problems with BOD was because he lost these attributes with age. Awareness and playmaking abilities are also very important, something BOD never lost.

Of course, the best scenario is having players capable of carrying through heavy traffic and having the speed and agility, which is why I really want to see Henshaw playing at 13 sooner rather than later.

I can never tell whether our Irish posters are happy or sad. There seems to be a lot of self flagellation for a side ranked 2nd in the world.

This is my opinion of how Irelands backline should look.

09 : Murray

10 : Sexton

12 : Cave

13 : Henshaw

11 : Earls

14 : Bowe

15 : Zebo

I have put Henshaw in his right position and a position that I feel he would be best suited playing.
I have also given Zebo the edge over Kearney based on yesterdays performance and that I feel that Kearney has not been playing that well of late for Ireland.

A lot of players post lions tour suffer a dip in form, even if they didnt get much or any test time ( look at Ryan Grant, who only went as an injury replacement and played part of a mid week game!) and it seems to me Rob Kearney hasnt been anywhere near his best since that tour.
Zebo played well at FB yesterday, settled in nicely by swivelling past Grant Gilchrist, like he was a big sack of tatties, in the first 10 seconds which would have settled the nerves. Not sure how well he would do against a rampaging Argentian ( particularly Imhoff and Tucelot) or French back line (Spedding, Huget and Nakaitaci).
IMO he has a good chance of making the squad as a wing/ back up FB.

I do think that an on form Kearney is first choice for 15, I honestly do. I just feel that he hasn't been in that good form of late and Zebo has again proved what quality he does have. Its for that reason that I would have him over Kearney now.

On the flip side, we all know how good Kearney can be so he has to be given a chance to prove his form again.

George Carlin wrote:I can never tell whether our Irish posters are happy or sad. There seems to be a lot of self flagellation for a side ranked 2nd in the world.

I guess it all comes down to the fact that we eternally worry about just what players it is that rank us 2nd. With Schmidt, you never do really know as he makes them all do boring stuff that seldom sets them apart and yet the overall infusion of dour normality that flushes through the ranks seems to work so far.
That obviously annoys Argumentative purists - they want to believe that without Zebo we're doomed, or that if POC gets a new groin injury we're fecked, etc etc. Purists want to have wars about the pros and cons of individual players and are suspicious of this coach who demands an Obedient Communist Collective of Sector 7-G Drones.

I would put Henshaw as our 13 long-term too, but I do feel Payne is better than Cave or D'Arcy. Excited to see McCloskey with Henshaw after the RWC. Now McCloskey is a guy with all the size and power you could want for the modern game, but he's also got the ability to act as a playmaker and a sweet offloading game.

Notch wrote:I would put Henshaw as our 13 long-term too, but I do feel Payne is better than Cave or D'Arcy. Excited to see McCloskey with Henshaw after the RWC. Now McCloskey is a guy with all the size and power you could want for the modern game, but he's also got the ability to act as a playmaker and a sweet offloading game.

Offloading still under curfew in this Ireland, Notch. A rascal like McCloskey can take his offloadedism elsewhere!

Why not put Henshaw at 13 now Notch? He is currently the best 13 Ireland have, strong defensively, excellent in attack and has a great offload. He and Cave are ready and are ready made to play 12-13 now.

Both Henshaw and Cave are much better at line-breaking than Payne, something that Ireland need if they are going to go far in the RWC.

Notch wrote:I would put Henshaw as our 13 long-term too, but I do feel Payne is better than Cave or D'Arcy. Excited to see McCloskey with Henshaw after the RWC. Now McCloskey is a guy with all the size and power you could want for the modern game, but he's also got the ability to act as a playmaker and a sweet offloading game.

The thought of seeing McCloskey-Henshaw is mouthwatering. The complete package perhaps. The likes of Olding, Marshall and Ringrose could all have something to say about that, though.

No, thats just not true. If it was I would agree but it isn't and I don't. Cave is not better at line-breaking than Payne. You might think that if you go on the evidence of the past two games alone. But any Ulster fan will tell you that Payne is a fair bit stronger and a fair bit faster. They both pick pretty good lines, and they are both good defenders. There's not much between them. But Payne is most certainly the better centre.

Ok, well I believe it to be true. I believe and from what I have seen (ok granted I don't see as many Ulster games as I probably should) Cave is a very good strong runner with line breaking capabilities of which I am yet to see from Payne.

Anyways, that's beside the point as I see Cave as a 12 not a 13. The point I am making is that Cave is ready to be played at 12 and I feel that the most balanced pairing he could have would be with Henshaw who is a proper 13 and being misused at 12 to accommodate Payne somewhat. I am not saying that Payne is bad, just that I feel Henshaw is a better 13.

Anyways, I feel that Ireland have bigger issues than who plays 12 or 13.

9 and 10 are a major concern for me.

Murray is the incumbent 9 but in Redden and Boss there is no real quality back up. Boss really is poor and I would have preferred Marmion ahead of him.

Sexton is the incumbent 10 and I truly hope that Schmidt see's Paddy Jackson as his back up over Madigan who I feel is not of International quality to play 10. What scares me even more is that Madigan is also being looked at as a back up 12, this would be a real mistake in my mind.

Madigan for me, is only an impact sub when things are going well and protection of better players is required or when things are going bad and need that little injection pace.

Henshaw is being used at 12 because of his physique - think more Jean de Villiers than Jamie Roberts. I don't think he will be moved from there because of that.

eirebilly wrote:

Madigan for me, is only an impact sub when things are going well and protection of better players is required or when things are going bad and need that little injection pace.

Wot a fence sitter of a comment 'at is, billy! Madigan is only good when things are going bad or going good? Like my grandfather used to say when being mischievous about his sayings.... "They say it's either for good weather or bad weather." That man was never wrong

Maybe so Sin é but I firmly believe that he is a better 13 than 12 and Cave is certainly not a small man for the bosh 12. Nice pairing in my mind.

I thought Madigan did well yesterday. If PJ sorted his kicking he would be the real deal, but in the meantime, both will be going to the world cup.

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Madigan for me, is only an impact sub when things are going well and protection of better players is required or when things are going bad and need that little injection pace.

Wot a fence sitter of a comment 'at is, billy!  Madigan is only good when things are going bad or going good?  Like my grandfather used to say when being mischievous about his sayings.... "They say it's either for good weather or bad weather."  That man was never wrong

Not really fence sitting here Fly but can see how it reads so yeah

Just cannot for the life of me see him as back up anything, simply as a sub impact player.

Sin é wrote:Henshaw is being used at 12 because of his physique - think more Jean de Villiers than Jamie Roberts. I don't think he will be moved from there because of that.

Perhaps young Henshaw should be asked to play both 12 and 13 then, 'cause it seems a cert that physicality is now needed for both numbers.

Sin é wrote:I thought Madigan did well yesterday. If PJ sorted his kicking he would be the real deal, but in the meantime, both will be going to the world cup.

Really? I thought that he was very poor up until the 60-65min mark. He played well after that but his game management was poor up to then. Jackson is not as good a kicker as Madigan but is a far more all round and better 10 than him.

eirebilly wrote:Maybe so Sin é but I firmly believe that he is a better 13 than 12 and Cave is certainly not a small man for the bosh 12. Nice pairing in my mind.

I think Cave is a better cover option than D'Arcy or Madigan at 12, not sure I would see him as a regular starter there. He is just short a bit of pace and physicality.

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Maybe so Sin é but I firmly believe that he is a better 13 than 12 and Cave is certainly not a small man for the bosh 12. Nice pairing in my mind.

I think Cave is a better cover option than D'Arcy or Madigan at 12, not sure I would see him as a regular starter there. He is just short a bit of pace and physicality.

So you are happy with Payne playing 13? I think that he is solid defensively but Ireland need a playmaker at 13. That only leaves two options in my mind, Earls or Henshaw and I would have Henshaw over Earls at 13 which is why I would have Cave starting at 12 based on current form.

The other option would be Payne 12 and Henshaw 13 but I am not so sure that Payne would be the best offloader to Henshaw.

Sin é wrote:Henshaw is being used at 12 because of his physique - think more Jean de Villiers than Jamie Roberts. I don't think he will be moved from there because of that.

He is more similar to Tommy Bowe physically than the likes of De Villiers or Roberts. He actually reminds me a bit of Bowe with his running lines. I agree with eirebilly that he is much better at 13, I have said before I think he is wasted at 12. He can do a job there, but he doesn't have the space where he really excels. I would much rather see him at fullback than 12, if he isn't going to be selected at 13.

For this RWC however, I cannot really see a better option than Henshaw-Payne in the midfield. I have a lot more trust in this combination than any other, even if it seems the more conservative selection. Cave is still learning the ropes of test rugby, and he hasn't played 12 an awful lot. Earls is defensively questionable.

eirebilly wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Madigan for me, is only an impact sub when things are going well and protection of better players is required or when things are going bad and need that little injection pace.

Wot a fence sitter of a comment 'at is, billy!  Madigan is only good when things are going bad or going good?  Like my grandfather used to say when being mischievous about his sayings.... "They say it's either for good weather or bad weather."  That man was never wrong

Not really fence sitting here Fly but can see how it reads so yeah

Just cannot for the life of me see him as back up anything, simply as a sub impact player.

I get your point, Billy.... I was being mischievous like my Granddad

But you bring up a point I've always been curious about. The role of Impact Sub and how such a character is often assumed to be lesser than a full blown first teamer and yet by the very nature of his role and title (Impact sub) he has a reputation of often coming on when the chips are down and resurrecting victories from the claws of defeat.

Subs now often get the bulk of a second half to play with, especially in competitions where mainstay players have their time in each game heavily managed. So I've always viewed subs (especially in the last 7 or 8 years) as being as integral to overall team performance and results as the guys who get to be named on the starting list. A second half is as important as a first. And like you say, sometimes the second half subs are handed a game they have to protect to the final whistle. But other times, they're handed a mess by their 'betters' and have to try to drag back a victory before that whistle.
There is a lot to be said for the role of Impact Sub and I often feel coaches should be more open to putting supposed dead-cert starters in the role. O'Brien has played Impact Sub on occasion. Why always supposed best players on first? Spread them out. Keep the opposition on their toes.

eirebilly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Maybe so Sin é but I firmly believe that he is a better 13 than 12 and Cave is certainly not a small man for the bosh 12. Nice pairing in my mind.

I think Cave is a better cover option than D'Arcy or Madigan at 12, not sure I would see him as a regular starter there. He is just short a bit of pace and physicality.

So you are happy with Payne playing 13? I think that he is solid defensively but Ireland need a playmaker at 13. That only leaves two options in my mind, Earls or Henshaw and I would have Henshaw over Earls at 13 which is why I would have Cave starting at 12 based on current form.

The other option would be Payne 12 and Henshaw 13 but I am not so sure that Payne would be the best offloader to Henshaw.

Why you think Earls is a playmaker is beyond me. He's a strike runner. He's a finisher. He's a stepper. Payne has far more claim to being a playmaker than he does.

But in answer to your question, yes I am extremely happy.

eirebilly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Maybe so Sin é but I firmly believe that he is a better 13 than 12 and Cave is certainly not a small man for the bosh 12. Nice pairing in my mind.

I think Cave is a better cover option than D'Arcy or Madigan at 12, not sure I would see him as a regular starter there. He is just short a bit of pace and physicality.

So you are happy with Payne playing 13? I think that he is solid defensively but Ireland need a playmaker at 13. That only leaves two options in my mind, Earls or Henshaw and I would have Henshaw over Earls at 13 which is why I would have Cave starting at 12 based on current form.

The other option would be Payne 12 and Henshaw 13 but I am not so sure that Payne would be the best offloader to Henshaw.

No, I'd have Earls at 13 and Henshaw at 12 for this world cup at least. I'm not too sure what the difference is if Henshaw plays 12 or 13. Players interchange all the time and Henshaw would be a bit closer to the action.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:Henshaw is being used at 12 because of his physique - think more Jean de Villiers than Jamie Roberts. I don't think he will be moved from there because of that.

He is more similar to Tommy Bowe physically than the likes of De Villiers or Roberts. He actually reminds me a bit of Bowe with his running lines. I agree with eirebilly that he is much better at 13, I have said before I think he is wasted at 12. He can do a job there, but he doesn't have the space where he really excels. I would much rather see him at fullback than 12, if he isn't going to be selected at 13.

For this RWC however, I cannot really see a better option than Henshaw-Payne in the midfield. I have a lot more trust in this combination than any other, even if it seems the more conservative selection. Cave is still learning the ropes of test rugby, and he hasn't played 12 an awful lot. Earls is defensively questionable.

I think that Cave has 10 full caps and 11 Wolfhound caps which is more that Payne with 7 full caps so if he is still learning then surely then Payne is as well?

I actually think that the Henshaw Payne combo works better against the SH sides than it does against the NH sides so Payne is definitely in there but I simply feel the balance would be better with Cave and Henshaw at 12 - 13.

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Maybe so Sin é but I firmly believe that he is a better 13 than 12 and Cave is certainly not a small man for the bosh 12. Nice pairing in my mind.

I think Cave is a better cover option than D'Arcy or Madigan at 12, not sure I would see him as a regular starter there. He is just short a bit of pace and physicality.

So you are happy with Payne playing 13? I think that he is solid defensively but Ireland need a playmaker at 13. That only leaves two options in my mind, Earls or Henshaw and I would have Henshaw over Earls at 13 which is why I would have Cave starting at 12 based on current form.

The other option would be Payne 12 and Henshaw 13 but I am not so sure that Payne would be the best offloader to Henshaw.

No, I'd have Earls at 13 and Henshaw at 12 for this world cup at least. I'm not too sure what the difference is if Henshaw plays 12 or 13. Players interchange all the time and Henshaw would be a bit closer to the action.

The idea of Earls at 13 is great but I do feel he would be more effective on the wing.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Sin é wrote:Henshaw is being used at 12 because of his physique - think more Jean de Villiers than Jamie Roberts. I don't think he will be moved from there because of that.

He is more similar to Tommy Bowe physically than the likes of De Villiers or Roberts. He actually reminds me a bit of Bowe with his running lines. I agree with eirebilly that he is much better at 13, I have said before I think he is wasted at 12. He can do a job there, but he doesn't have the space where he really excels. I would much rather see him at fullback than 12, if he isn't going to be selected at 13.

For this RWC however, I cannot really see a better option than Henshaw-Payne in the midfield. I have a lot more trust in this combination than any other, even if it seems the more conservative selection. Cave is still learning the ropes of test rugby, and he hasn't played 12 an awful lot. Earls is defensively questionable.

My point was that Jean de Villiers isn't a bosh merchant, he has good hands and a step. He knows where the try line is as well. Roberts is a bosh merchant. Payne is a safe, defensive option. We're not going to win a world cup with him in the centre.

eirebilly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Maybe so Sin é but I firmly believe that he is a better 13 than 12 and Cave is certainly not a small man for the bosh 12. Nice pairing in my mind.

I think Cave is a better cover option than D'Arcy or Madigan at 12, not sure I would see him as a regular starter there. He is just short a bit of pace and physicality.

So you are happy with Payne playing 13? I think that he is solid defensively but Ireland need a playmaker at 13. That only leaves two options in my mind, Earls or Henshaw and I would have Henshaw over Earls at 13 which is why I would have Cave starting at 12 based on current form.

The other option would be Payne 12 and Henshaw 13 but I am not so sure that Payne would be the best offloader to Henshaw.

No, I'd have Earls at 13 and Henshaw at 12 for this world cup at least. I'm not too sure what the difference is if Henshaw plays 12 or 13. Players interchange all the time and Henshaw would be a bit closer to the action.

The idea of Earls at 13 is great but I do feel he would be more effective on the wing.

Pointless having him on the wing if he does't get any ball. I think the new thinking is anyway that since all wingers seem to be giants, the smaller fellows are better off infield where they are not just shoved into touch and they get more space to run at players.

Rob Penny used to like having our 2nd rows out on the wing for this reason.

I honestly didn't know that Cave had 10 caps for Ireland. I guess the point I am making is that Payne has played those tests at 13 for the past year and is building familiarity with Henshaw and the team. Cave hasn't played at 12 much, and he hasn't been involved with the Ireland team for any consistent period.

But Paynes caps before these past two games came in the Autumn Internationals and the Six Nations- Caves in a tour to the US/Canada during the Lions in 2009, same tour during the Lions in 2013, a late replacement against New Zealand, a tour to Argentina with some big-name players unavailable and in a second string team facing Georgia.

So I think it's fair to say Payne has more experience of genuinely competitive international rugby after the Six Nations.

Payne has played 5 games with Henshaw. He has 7 caps overall - he partnered Darcy v SA & Scotland yesterday.

No, Henshaw played against South Africa

Notch wrote:No, Henshaw played against South Africa

Ops your right. But I seem to recall one of them being injured for a game in the autumn internationals - perhaps it was Henshaw played with Darcy in those AIs?

Yes. Payne got injured on his debut against South Africa in the last few minutes. Then it was D'Arcy and Cave that played versus Georgia, and D'Arcy and Henshaw that played versus Australia.