Ireland v Scotland, 15 August

First topic message reminder :

  
IRELAND v SCOTLAND
15 August 2015
KO: 17:00 local
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Live on Sky Sports at Notch's house

Referee: Pascal Gaüzère (France)
Assistant Referees: [TBC]
TMO: [TBC]

A. Head to Head

130 Played 130
59 Won 66
5 Drawn 5
66 Lost 59
1,416 Points 1,420

B. Recent Form

21 March 2015
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
10 – 40 to Ireland

2 February 2014
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
28 – 6 to Ireland

24 February 2013
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
12 – 8 to Scotland

10 March 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
32 – 14 to Ireland

6 August 2011
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
10 – 6 to Scotland

27 February 2011
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
18 – 21 to Ireland

20 March 2010
Croke Park, Dublin
20 – 23 to Scotland

C. Teams

IRELAND

15. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
13. Jared Payne (Ulster)
12. Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11. Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock/Leinster)
10. Ian Madigan (Blackrock/Leinster)
09. Isaac Boss (Terenure/Leinster)

08. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster) capt
07. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
06. Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster)*
05. Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
04. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
03. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
02. Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster)
01. Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster)

16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Michael Bent (Dublin University/Leinster)
18. Nathan White (Connacht)*
19. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
22. Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
23. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)

SCOTLAND

15 Ruaridh Jackson  (Wasps)
14 Sean Lamont  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
13 Richie Vernon  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
12 Peter Horne  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
11 Tim Visser  (Harlequins)
10 Greig Tonks  (Edinburgh  Rugby)
09 Henry Pyrgos  CAPTAIN  (Glasgow  Warriors)

01 Ryan Grant  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
02 Fraser Brown  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
03 Jon Welsh  (Newcastle  Falcons)
04 Jim Hamilton  (Saracens)  
05 Grant Gilchrist  (Edinburgh  Rugby)
06 Blair Cowan  (London  Irish)
07 Hugh Blake  (Glasgow  Warriors)
08 David Denton  (Edinburgh  Rugby)  

16 Ross Ford  (Edinburgh  Rugby)
17 Gordon Reid  (Glasgow  Warriors)
18 Mike Cusack  (Glasgow  Warriors)
19 Rob Harley  (Glasgow  Warriors)
20 John Barclay  (Scarlets)  
21 Sam Hidalgo-­Clyne  (Edinburgh  Rugby)
22 Duncan Weir  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
23 Matt  Scott  (Edinburgh  Rugby)

Notch wrote:

Why you think Earls is a playmaker is beyond me. He's a strike runner. He's a finisher. He's a stepper. Payne has far more claim to being a playmaker than he does.

But in answer to your question, yes I am extremely happy.

I'd see Earls is a weaver, not an out and out finisher.  It's his instinct for finding angles through that I feel is his greatest gift - added to the pace of thought and action he brings whilst at it.  
Other candidate players surely can hunt down space too but in my opinion not with the same natural instincts plus pace that Earls can bring.  Neither does Earls seem to have a blueprint.  Some space finders have a blueprint - habits that repeat.  They can often overcomplicate the opposition wall in front of them by overdoing the weaving.  Earls seems to me to weave when he must but senses the more straight-forward straight line when open.    I really wouldn't see Payne as being as quick minded in that skill set.   Not that I'd have anything against him being 13 for games in the WC.  He has his own attributes.  But in some hard, top grade games, it really does become blatantly and painfully clear that Ireland really does need a natural space finding minx;  and maybe Earls, under Schmidt now or the first time, will finally become that key to unlocking a much more potent back line.

Earls makes his mistakes.  I'm not pretending he's perfect.  But then again perfection never is perfect - flaws are an essential ingredient.

Notch wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Maybe so Sin é but I firmly believe that he is a better 13 than 12 and Cave is certainly not a small man for the bosh 12. Nice pairing in my mind.

I think Cave is a better cover option than D'Arcy or Madigan at 12, not sure I would see him as a regular starter there. He is just short a bit of pace and physicality.

So you are happy with Payne playing 13? I think that he is solid defensively but Ireland need a playmaker at 13. That only leaves two options in my mind, Earls or Henshaw and I would have Henshaw over Earls at 13 which is why I would have Cave starting at 12 based on current form.

The other option would be Payne 12 and Henshaw 13 but I am not so sure that Payne would be the best offloader to Henshaw.

Why you think Earls is a playmaker is beyond me. He's a strike runner. He's a finisher. He's a stepper. Payne has far more claim to being a playmaker than he does.

But in answer to your question, yes I am extremely happy.

Wow, really... only a strike runner? I am sorry but Earls is an excellent playmaker and organiser of the backs. In what way is Payne a play maker? Payne basically tackles his boots off which is good but I am yet to see him make plays, break lines and actually offload on a regular basis. All things that Earls does. I am sure the old chestnut will come out whereby people say he is not a good defender but I honestly think that is untrue as he is a very good defender.

Sin é wrote:



Pointless having him on the wing if he does't get any ball. I  think the new thinking is anyway that since all wingers seem to be giants, the smaller fellows are better off infield where they are not just shoved into touch and they get more space to run at players.

Rob Penny used to like having our 2nd rows out on the wing for this reason.

That's why I would have Cave and Henshaw 12-13 partnership, so the ball would get out to Earls on the wing. For me, Earls best position is the wing but he is certainly very good at 13. An excellent back up to Henshaw.

Firstly, I didn't use the word only. Those are all good things for a winger. The reason I see him as a winger is because a) he has much more space to do those things in the wider channels and b) when he gets the ball, his instinct is to go himself for the line. This isn't a bad thing- he's an instinctive finisher. It's just that if he makes a break at 13, he likely has to offload to a supporting runner to finish the move off and he's got a history of not being good at that. Whereas a player like Payne and Cave is the opposite. I've been constantly championing Earls not just for the squad but for the first team over the past few months. I just understand that the kind of player he is is most effective in wider channels. Payne I know for certain after watching him play for three years has extremely good judgment in this area.

Secondly, I just can't believe that you haven't seen Payne operate as a playmaker whether it be for the Auckland Blues or Ulster. You know, where he makes plays, breaks lines and offloads on a regular basis. The way you're talking it's as if you are only counting the games he has played since he has qualified for Ireland. If you watch the games he played at 13 for the Auckland Blues you see him playing a completely different style of game because they had a completely different style of attack, in a completely different kind of tournament. Lots and lots of offloading from him. If you watch his games at 15 for Ulster you'll see a player adept at coming from deep and bringing the players around him into the game, carrying the ball in two hands and being extremely capable of picking the right pass at the right moment to unlock defences.

Since becoming qualified for Ireland he's been instructed to focus on ball carrying and tackling, taking a more direct approach to contact both for his province and for the national team. So you may not like that he is told to play that way, but he has a whole career before he started playing at this level that demonstrates that he has the ability to be an extremely creative player at 13 or 15. Of course, the reason for these instructions is obvious- everyone has less time on the ball at test level so he's been instructed to cut back on the riskier stuff and do the basics extremely well, which is the mantra of the entire team. If every player does the basics well from 1 to 15, we don't need higher-risk plays. We will create space and capitalise on it. Lots of people don't like that because they want to see the 'razzle-dazzle', and although moves like the one shown for Zebos try yesterday show we do see some when it's on, people do want to see flair and creativity. That's fine- but if he's replaced, what makes you think his replacement will be instructed to play differently to the way he's playing now?

Tbh, I've been extremely impressed with Payne in an attacking role since he moved to outside centre for Ireland because I can't think of a phase where he has gone backwards or made the wrong decision. In our game plan if he can get across the gain line every time he touches the ball, we will prosper. Whenever we do make line breaks it's often in a wider channel after a multi-phase move where the back row and centres have done the hard work of sucking in the defence, or else a set move where the centres act as pivots taking the ball, and moving it wide.

And what wings would you have Earls on - right? (where he has been playing for Munster since Doug Howlett retired)

I just think Cave is good enough to do a job there - but not against the top sides.

Left, Trimble on the right.

You're very fond of quoting the stat that Earls scored 5 tries in the last RWC. That was with Bowe occupying the right wing.

I have to agree with the idea of Cave 12 and Henshaw 13 as our best midfield combo. One thing I think Cave excels at above others is the ability to draw in and commit multiple defenders before passing, I think he does this better than both Payne or Earls. He has really impressed me at 12 in the last few games, I feel he is a little bit under-rated by those who do not think he is test class, although I wouldn't watch as much of him as the Ulster fans. I think another good performance and he could be on the plane as cover for both centre positions.

Henshaw is hands down the best 13 in the country, and you see how much Connacht lose from their game when he is unavailable. I think it is wasting an opportunity to not use him there. Earls will have the questions mark over his defence at centre, I think his best position on the wings.

Of course I have seen videos of him playing for the Blues and yes I have seen him make breaks. Its at international level that he has not made breaks or come across remotely like a play making 13. As for Ulster and how he plays there, good for them but he does not do it on the International stage. Earls has done and will continue to do so.

Do you honestly believe that Schmidt tells him to play so conservatively? I would have believed that but having seen Earls against Wales it showed me that 13's are not discouraged by Schmidt to play offensively.

I truly rate him as a good player but not as a playmaking 13 to the level of Earls.

You seem to underestimate Earls as a 13 which I feel is wrong but like you, I also believe that Earls best position is on the wing but for Earls to be effective on the wing, he needs the ball to come past the centers, something that has not been happening with Payne at 13.

I've watched pretty much every Ireland test match Earls has played in and have never seen him act as a playmaking 13. It's like you mean something completely different by that word. Saying he isn't a playmaking 13 isn't a criticism- it's just not his style of play, at all. Cave would be an example of a playmaking 13, the way he plays for Ulster.

Are you honestly going to compare that Wales team to the teams Payne has played against? Just look at the softness of their defence for some of the tries we scored. It was not a test-level performance from them in attack or defence. I absolutely do think that Schmidt has instructed the centres to focus on running hard and straight and fixing the opposition midfield defence by the way. That's because when we attack, we attack in waves and the centres are essential to crossing the gain line in the early phases.

Well you must have been watching other matches the Notch as he has done some wonderful stuff for Ireland at 13 when played there.

I am not against Payne, think he is very good but he is not the level of play making and instincts of Earls. That said, Earls is not of the same defensive level as Payne but to suggest that Payne is a better playmaker than Earls at international level is in my mind a little wide of the mark as he has not proven that as yet.

eirebilly wrote:

Notch wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Maybe so Sin é but I firmly believe that he is a better 13 than 12 and Cave is certainly not a small man for the bosh 12. Nice pairing in my mind.

I think Cave is a better cover option than D'Arcy or Madigan at 12, not sure I would see him as a regular starter there. He is just short a bit of pace and physicality.

So you are happy with Payne playing 13? I think that he is solid defensively but Ireland need a playmaker at 13. That only leaves two options in my mind, Earls or Henshaw and I would have Henshaw over Earls at 13 which is why I would have Cave starting at 12 based on current form.

The other option would be Payne 12 and Henshaw 13 but I am not so sure that Payne would be the best offloader to Henshaw.

Why you think Earls is a playmaker is beyond me. He's a strike runner. He's a finisher. He's a stepper. Payne has far more claim to being a playmaker than he does.

But in answer to your question, yes I am extremely happy.

Wow, really... only a strike runner? I am sorry but Earls is an excellent playmaker and organiser of the backs. In what way is Payne a play maker? Payne basically tackles his boots off which is good but I am yet to see him make plays, break lines and actually offload on a regular basis. All things that Earls does. I am sure the old chestnut will come out whereby people say he is not a good defender but I honestly think that is untrue as he is a very good defender.

Payne did all of those things you haven't seen frequently but he did so as a fullback for Ulster. He was able to create something out of nothing and carve a massive hole in any opposition defence with relative ease. As well as this, he has always had great awareness for those outside of him, which gives him an edge over Earls.

He has been improving in the 13 shirt, and I think he is starting to show elements of his previous attributes as he grows into the role, but he definitely isn't as dangerous in attack as Earls at 13.

eirebilly wrote:Well you must have been watching other matches the Notch as he has done some wonderful stuff for Ireland at 13 when played there.

I agree- but he most certainly hasn't acted as a playmaker. Runners attack the ball and the opposition defence. Playmakers create space for other players to do that. You wouldn't want Earls to act as a playmaker because he is so good actually running at defences himself. You wouldn't normally have a pure playmaker at outside centre, normally the secondary playmaker in the back line is at 12 or 15, but Cave is a good example of a 13 who does sort of fulfil that role for Ulster.

That's why it seems like you're using the word to mean something else, because Earls 100% is a player who likes to run with the ball in hand first and foremost.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Notch wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Maybe so Sin é but I firmly believe that he is a better 13 than 12 and Cave is certainly not a small man for the bosh 12. Nice pairing in my mind.

I think Cave is a better cover option than D'Arcy or Madigan at 12, not sure I would see him as a regular starter there. He is just short a bit of pace and physicality.

So you are happy with Payne playing 13? I think that he is solid defensively but Ireland need a playmaker at 13. That only leaves two options in my mind, Earls or Henshaw and I would have Henshaw over Earls at 13 which is why I would have Cave starting at 12 based on current form.

The other option would be Payne 12 and Henshaw 13 but I am not so sure that Payne would be the best offloader to Henshaw.

Why you think Earls is a playmaker is beyond me. He's a strike runner. He's a finisher. He's a stepper. Payne has far more claim to being a playmaker than he does.

But in answer to your question, yes I am extremely happy.

Wow, really... only a strike runner? I am sorry but Earls is an excellent playmaker and organiser of the backs. In what way is Payne a play maker? Payne basically tackles his boots off which is good but I am yet to see him make plays, break lines and actually offload on a regular basis. All things that Earls does. I am sure the old chestnut will come out whereby people say he is not a good defender but I honestly think that is untrue as he is a very good defender.

Payne did all of those things you haven't seen frequently but he did so as a fullback for Ulster. He was able to create something out of nothing and carve a massive hole in any opposition defence with relative ease. As well as this, he has always had great awareness for those outside of him, which gives him an edge over Earls.

He has been improving in the 13 shirt, and I think he is starting to show elements of his previous attributes as he grows into the role, but he definitely isn't as dangerous in attack as Earls at 13.

And that is the key, at 15 for Ulster not at 13.

Payne is good at 13 when playing very physical sides like SA, NZ and even OZ so for me, in games like those he gets the nod based solely on his defensive abilities.

Notch wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Well you must have been watching other matches the Notch as he has done some wonderful stuff for Ireland at 13 when played there.

I agree- but he hasn't acted as a playmaker. Runners attack the ball and the opposition defence. Playmakers create space for other players to do that. You wouldn't want Earls to act as a playmaker because he is so good actually running at defences himself. You wouldn't normally have a pure playmaker at outside centre, but Cave is a good example of a 13 who does sort of fulfil that role for Ulster.

But surely making breaks from 13 and getting the defense on the back foot thus creating space for others must be seen as play making? This Earls has done regularly with his great instincts. Payne has made one or two linebreaks but is mainly a crash ball 13 who has rarely offloaded so how can that be seen as playmaking?

As I said though, he has started to grow into the role at 13 for Ulster and I am confident that he will be a very important player for Ireland during the world cup. I actually think we will see him unlocking defences much more than we did during the 6 Nations. I can see Schmidt revealing some very classy back-line moves off the set piece, where Payne will play an integral part.

I would love to see that happen Rory, I really would but I will believe it when I see it.

No, that is being a good strike runner. A playmaker would be the role of the 10 and maybe one other player in the back line; picking the right passes to put players through those holes. Playmaker is a loosely defined term but it is generally understood to refer to a player who opens up running/line break opportunities for others via their passing skills. Your halfbacks are your playmakers. Maybe your 12 or 15. Rarely your 13.

I've already said that the way we use the centres is on crash-ball as part of a multi-phase attack, so it's not a surprise that we haven't seen Payne act as a playmaker because that is not the role of our outside centre. But we all know he has that capability from watching him play for other teams. You're not going to see him play the kind of creative rugby he plays for Ulster so long as he's at 13 for Ireland, because the centres are used in phase play to carry the ball. He's either going to make yards, run the decoy line, or score himself if we are in their 22. Occasionally he may be called upon to run an arcing line outside, draw a man and give the pass to a player which he has shown for Ulster and Ireland he is eminently capable of. Often he'll play the role of a link player in a wider backs move, giving the simple pass, but I've noticed we tend to use one or both centres as the decoy runners when we go wide. We rarely offload out of the tackle in this game plan, instead relying on going through the phases quickly, unless its really on. Normally we just keep the ball in contact.

The point is, every other centre will play under the same game plan so the debate is- who is best at it. For me it would be a pure waste of Earls ability in broken field to put him in that role. The kind of half-breaks he made against Wales will dry up against better defences. Henshaw is at least as good as Payne, but I question whether any 12 we have is as good as him in that 12 role.

Notch wrote:Firstly, I didn't use the word only. Those are all good things for a winger. The reason I see him as a winger is because a) he has much more space to do those things in the wider channels and b) when he gets the ball, his instinct is to go himself for the line. This isn't a bad thing- he's an instinctive finisher. It's just that if he makes a break at 13, he likely has to offload to a supporting runner to finish the move off and he's got a history of not being good at that. Whereas a player like Payne and Cave is the opposite. I've been constantly championing Earls not just for the squad but for the first team over the past few months. I just understand that the kind of player he is is most effective in wider channels. Payne I know for certain after watching him play for three years has extremely good judgment in this area.

Brian O'Driscoll had exactly the same instinct to go for the line. The problem Earls has is that his support wasn't able to keep up with him (BOD in his latter days!).

Believe me when I tell you coaches would prefer if players didn't have to offload or pass because their centre has shown a clean pair of heels through the opposition defence!

Against Wales Earls made a very good break and found his way through about 4 or 5 Welsh players and was held up by Hibberd I think. Here is another example of Earls working through a congested field from about 30 secs (and he manages the offload!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zF1m_UXmgYU

Secondly, I just can't believe that you haven't seen Payne operate as a playmaker whether it be for the Auckland Blues or Ulster. You know, where he makes plays, breaks lines and offloads on a regular basis. The way you're talking it's as if you are only counting the games he has played since he has qualified for Ireland. If you watch the games he played at 13 for the Auckland Blues you see him playing a completely different style of game because they had a completely different style of attack, in a completely different kind of tournament. Lots and lots of offloading from him. If you watch his games at 15 for Ulster you'll see a player adept at coming from deep and bringing the players around him into the game, carrying the ball in two hands and being extremely capable of picking the right pass at the right moment to unlock defences.

In Super Rugby defence is optional. It looks like Schmidt has forbidden offloads anyway for team Ireland.
The Blues wouldn't be a team to hold up as a good example anyway.

Since becoming qualified for Ireland he's been instructed to focus on ball carrying and tackling, taking a more direct approach to contact both for his province and for the national team. So you may not like that he is told to play that way, but he has a whole career before he started playing at this level that demonstrates that he has the ability to be an extremely creative player at 13 or 15. Of course, the reason for these instructions is obvious- everyone has less time on the ball at test level so he's been instructed to cut back on the riskier stuff and do the basics extremely well, which is the mantra of the entire team. If every player does the basics well from 1 to 15, we don't need higher-risk plays. We will create space and capitalise on it. Lots of people don't like that because they want to see the 'razzle-dazzle', and although moves like the one shown for Zebos try yesterday show we do see some when it's on, people do want to see flair and creativity. That's fine- but if he's replaced, what makes you think his replacement will be instructed to play differently to the way he's playing now?

I'm not looking for razzle-dazzle - just a few line breaks! Earls doesn't do high risk plays. He just finds space. In the 6Ns v Wales, Ireland could not get through the Welsh defence. Earls always finds a way through against Wales.

Tbh, I've been extremely impressed with Payne in an attacking role since he moved to outside centre for Ireland because I can't think of a phase where he has gone backwards or made the wrong decision. In our game plan if he can get across the gain line every time he touches the ball, we will prosper. Whenever we do make line breaks it's often in a wider channel after a multi-phase move where the back row and centres have done the hard work of sucking in the defence, or else a set move where the centres act as pivots taking the ball, and moving it wide.

Rarely if ever makes a line break or beats a defence (i.e., make a bit of space for his backs).

Notch wrote:Left, Trimble on the right.

You're very fond of quoting the stat that Earls scored 5 tries in the last RWC. That was with Bowe occupying the right wing.

2 of the 5 were in the one game he played in the centre

Notch wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Well you must have been watching other matches the Notch as he has done some wonderful stuff for Ireland at 13 when played there.

I agree- but he most certainly hasn't acted as a playmaker. Runners attack the ball and the opposition defence. Playmakers create space for other players to do that. You wouldn't want Earls to act as a playmaker because he is so good actually running at defences himself. You wouldn't normally have a pure playmaker at outside centre, normally the secondary playmaker in the back line is at 12 or 15, but Cave is a good example of a 13 who does sort of fulfil that role for Ulster.

That's why it seems like you're using the word to mean something else, because Earls 100% is a player who likes to run with the ball in hand first and foremost.

Would you describe BOD as a playmaker in his early days? What about Jonathan Joseph?

But Notch, I have seen Earls make breaks for Ireland, offload to other players that have led to Irish tries. That's playmaking. He has, in his 40 caps, 7 try assists to his name (3 of which were for BOD) so this does not scream to me that he cannot make and create space for others.

I am not saying that Payne does not posses this ability, I am saying that he has not done it yet at international level.

Its why I am confused that you believe that Payne is a better play maker at International level...

Payne playing some great Rugby for Blues and Ulster at 13 and 15:

IrelandsBest13

Loved his try v Cardiff Blues at about 4 min's in

I wouldn't describe that as a playmaking role, no. But it is important for a centre and something I think Payne is naturally better at.

Well then I really have no idea by what you mean with play making. The fact that Earls has 7 assists and 13 tries in 40 tests for Ireland says to me that he is a play maker. I think it was in 2009 or 2010 that he broke the line, drew two players, held up (to wait for support) and through a brilliant pass to send BOD over the line.

He has done some excellent pop passes to get others to break the line and he himself runs superb supporting lines.

Again I struggle to see how you think that Payne is better at this than Earls at International level when he has not done a single thing like that. Not saying he wont but he has not yet, that's all.

Notch wrote:I wouldn't describe that as a playmaking role, no. But it is important for a centre and something I think Payne is naturally better at.

From the centre, I don't think Payne (or Cave) has the variation in their games or the ability to surprise defenders which I think is a key attribute. Paddy Wallace was a playmaking centre, I think Stuart Olding might be as well. Payne & Cave are very different players to those two.

I agree, I don't think what is being described is 'playmaking' at all. I think that is the wrong word for it. What it is is having the awareness to pick your supporting player. What you're saying Earls is good at is essential for any outside back- it's just not being a playmaker. An example of a good playmaker would be Paddy Jackson with his range of passing and the way he brings other players into the game. For outside centres you want more strike running, footwork, ability to make yards in traffic and of course passing and offloading.

But let's not get bogged down in semantics about what is and isn't a playmaker. I think Payne should play 13 because

a) I think Earls skill set is slightly wasted in the role. I think he is arguably the single best finisher in the squad. I think Trimble is a better all round winger, but Earls is the better finisher. This is less likely to be utilised in the centre; even though he'll probably get more touches of the ball, he'll be running in heavier traffic and have less time on the ball. Basically I feel it's moving a very dangerous player away from the situations where he is most able to hurt teams
b) I think Payne is better on the crash ball. Against tired defences or lesser teams Earls footwork can wreak havoc but I don't share the faith some have him to shimmy through brick walls. I think Payne has been very underrated in terms of his contribution to our attacking game, with many short-range carries. I think that the way we play is a multi-phase with normally just one or two passes before we take contact, and then after several phases we've either established a good position for the 10 to kick for territory or move it wide. I think 90% of the centres job in this attacking system is running hard and making small gains and that is what they are being asked to do. We do also vary it by attacking in wider channels, but then we're more likely to use the centres as decoys and go from 10 to 15 coming into the line. A lot of our attempts to put width on the game yesterday involved the ball going behind several decoy runners and Zebo coming onto it from deep
c) I think that if Payne does gets through the centre, he's got superb awareness of the game and is more likely to find his support runner. I know this because of the way he plays for Ulster. I think Payne reads the game better in general, which is part of the reason his defensive stats have been so good.

I wouldn't want to write off Earls as a centre either, because as players get older they do naturally develop their game awareness and its very possible Earls will do/is doing that. I think thats what happened with O'Driscoll as he got older, and D'Arcy. These things improve with experience.

eirebilly wrote:Well then I really have no idea by what you mean with play making. The fact that Earls has 7 assists and 13 tries in 40 tests for Ireland says to me that he is a play maker.  I think it was in 2009 or 2010 that he broke the line, drew two players, held up (to wait for support) and through a brilliant pass to send BOD over the line.

He has done some excellent pop passes to get others to break the line and he himself runs superb supporting lines.

Again I struggle to see how you think that Payne is better at this than Earls at International level when he has not done a single thing like that. Not saying he wont but he has not yet, that's all.

That is actually a fair comment. Payne hasn't actually proven that he is a creative player at 13 at international level yet, but Earls definitely has, even last week against an admittedly weak Welsh team.

Cave played all his life at 13 even with Earls at 12, but the truth is he isn't good enough to play there for Ulster. He's neither fast enough nor physical enough, but most importantly he's not good enough defensively.
Payne wanted to be a 15 and that unquestionably is his best position, but BOD was retiring and Ulster needed a better 13 so he moved there.
Cave has been moved to 12 to try and fit him in the Ulster team. He hasn't acquired any more pace or physicality. He still misses too many tackles and he still isn't a Test player. D'Arcy is past it, Marshall too injury prone, Reid and McSharry aren't the answer, Olding is injured and McCloskey is too green. The only answer is Henshaw at 12 and it doesn't really matter too much who his cover is because we all know they won't be good enough, so it might as well be Madigan who at least offers an attacking threat there.

Having said all that Schmidt has got Earls playing like a 13 where Kidney, Penney, McGahan and Foley weren't been able to. Maybe Schmidt can bring the best out of Cave too and do a job for Ireland that hitherto we didn't think was in him.

The Great Aukster wrote:Having said all that Schmidt has got Earls playing like a 13 where Kidney, Penney, McGahan and Foley weren't been able to. Maybe Schmidt can bring the best out of Cave too and do a job for Ireland that hitherto we didn't think was in him.

Yawn...epic fail...

Yeah, honestly for anyone who has watched Munster consistently, Earls has been fantastic at 13 for many seasons. It is an outdated, regurgitated statement that Earls isn't a good 13, he has been doing it at the top level for Munster for years when he is fully fit and firing.

My only real question mark over him playing at 13 is his defence. I still think he struggles against big ball carrying threats. Which is a problem, in the modern era, as many centres fit this mould.

Rory - If Earls has "been fantastic" at 13 why haven't his coaches consistently played him there?

The Great Aukster wrote:Rory - If Earls has "been fantastic" at 13 why haven't his coaches consistently played him there?  

The Munster coaches have actually, when he has been fit. As for Ireland, he is just back from injury, before that he had the greatest irish player ever playing at 13.

I genuinely believe the coaches view him as a 13 rather than a winger.

Payne was superb yesterday - a go to guy for breaking the gainline, faultless in defense, and very aware with the ball in hand. He doesn't offer the cutting edge of Earls but I know who I would start in a big game.

Cave must be seriously considered ahead of D'arcy as 3rd choice center but wonder is Joe wanting to wait to decide if Jackson or Madigan will be back up 10 first.

Madigan wasn't great - but maybe Boss was to blame as he was really poor. Madigan stands far too deep and shovels on to his outside backs, whereas Jackson is much flatter and creative. Jackson's dodgy place kicking is a big problem though so Joe will take both I think and have Madigan on the bench if Jackson starts.

Zebo at motm was taking the p*ss, although gave another good showing - should have been SOB followed by Henry.

Bowe needs to up his game and is behind Trimble, Earls and Zebo on that showing although think all 4 will go, if Joe is confident Zeebs can cover 15. If not Jones goes and likely Fitzgerald will go ahead of Trimble as left side cover, as he won't take 3 right footed wings.

Earls covers 13, Madigan 12 and I think it is significant that Cave has been switched to 12 over the past 12 months and started alongside Earls last week. I think D'arcy has been given a chance to prove himself but hasn't done enough but will see.

I think this will be the 14 backs:-

9, Murray, Reddan, Boss
10. Sexton, Jackson, Madigan
Centre: Payne, Henshaw, Cave
Wing: Earls, Trimble, Zebo, Bowe
Full back: Kearney
Or
Wing: Earls, Fitzgerald, Bowe
Full back: Kearney, Jones

Also I can really see a progression now in the attacking game plan - a lot more of the 2 passes from the ruck template Leinster were famous for.

I think Joe has played a blinder with the development of this side.

He's won the 6N twice, with different players and playing very different styles of rugby each time, in some cases taking criticism for the conservative play. He's built the depth and turned the bench into a real weapon. The set piece has improved out of site and the team has confidence to defend for long periods and win tight games in high pressure situations.

Defensively we have been very poor in the warm-ups but I'm convinced we'll see some special in the RWC - if we don't win I think we'll come very close.

I agree defensively we have been relatively poor so far.

Set-piece, defense and a reliable kicker are the cornerstones for a good run at the RWC.

Barring Boss the last day, I think the ball handling and passing have improved significantly. Ball presentation at rucks has been very good also. And lineout/scrum looks like a stable source of ball (so long as the selected hooker doesn't get the yipps). This should all bode well for the team to execute strike moves later next month when the games really matter.

Notch wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Maybe so Sin é but I firmly believe that he is a better 13 than 12 and Cave is certainly not a small man for the bosh 12. Nice pairing in my mind.

I think Cave is a better cover option than D'Arcy or Madigan at 12, not sure I would see him as a regular starter there. He is just short a bit of pace and physicality.

So you are happy with Payne playing 13? I think that he is solid defensively but Ireland need a playmaker at 13. That only leaves two options in my mind, Earls or Henshaw and I would have Henshaw over Earls at 13 which is why I would have Cave starting at 12 based on current form.

The other option would be Payne 12 and Henshaw 13 but I am not so sure that Payne would be the best offloader to Henshaw.

Why you think Earls is a playmaker is beyond me. He's a strike runner. He's a finisher. He's a stepper. Payne has far more claim to being a playmaker than he does.

But in answer to your question, yes I am extremely happy.

So am I and all of my mates who watched the rugby on Sky round at your house.

I'll level with you - we may have drunk a few of your beers.

I can also explain that strange looking stain on the rug.

My belated thoughts on the Scotland players:

1. Grant was busy around the field but struggled against Ross in the scrum. No shame in that. Hope he isn't ruled out. Reid was solid off the bench.

2. Brown carried a fair bit and got stuck in. I still feel McInally is worth a close look.

3. Thought Welsh was average in all departments. Cusack looked good off the bench.

4. Hamilton was his usual self. Powerful and abrasive but outshone by Toner and lacked in the workrate department.

5. Gilchrist grew into the game, unsurprisingly given the long layoff. His tackling is excellent.

6. Cowan worked his socks off and for my money looked good at 6. Massive workrate.

7. You know something, Hugh Blake has something. Underpowered against SOB over the ball but again, no shame in that. There's something of the Ross Rennie about him. One for the future, just not this World Cup.

8. Denton - Scotland's best player. Monster ball carrying and good lineout work.

9. Pyrgos - smart and efficient. Loomed spent coming off.

10. Really like Tonks at 10. Sharp passing from hand, strong in the tackle and one really nice break. Glasgow will be getting Weir back shortly.

11. Visser was good going forward but every now and then he does something which makes you wonder if he knows what he's doing. Still, he'll make the squad.

12. Horne was clever and showed some lovely touches. Better in defence than Vernon.

13. Looked exposed in defence a couple of times, but busy with ball in hand. Not threatening Mark Bennett, and may lose out to Lamont as 4th centre in the squad.

14. Lamont was powerful and may a lovely inside offload for the Horne try. Still not convinced personally, but his ability to cover wing and centre, plus his experience, may see him sneak in.

15. Jackson was a pleasant surprise at 15. Tackling looked solid and he came in nicely as a receiver for the Cowan try. He should be pretty chuffed with that effort.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Rory - If Earls has "been fantastic" at 13 why haven't his coaches consistently played him there?  

The Munster coaches have actually, when he has been fit. As for Ireland, he is just back from injury, before that he had the greatest irish player ever playing at 13.

I genuinely believe the coaches view him as a 13 rather than a winger.

Who are Scotland playing next? I hope they don't lose 'focus' now that they've played us.............

What I'm saying is.... keep it up...give the others a blast up the ar........................ a blast too. Don't always save it for us.

ME-109 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Rory - If Earls has "been fantastic" at 13 why haven't his coaches consistently played him there?  

The Munster coaches have actually, when he has been fit. As for Ireland, he is just back from injury, before that he had the greatest irish player ever playing at 13.

I genuinely believe the coaches view him as a 13 rather than a winger.

I genuinely believe they see him as a utility back - a guy who can cover wing and center rather than be a long term starter at either, which is good because that is essentially what he is.

He's also a very good finisher, which makes him a handy bench option but even on the wing I think he's not an 80 minute man due to his defensive and positional frailties and at 13 no coach in their right mind would line him up against a top 5 side out of choice.

That's not to devalue him - like Madigan and Zebo, if he's on form he brings something unique to the squad with his versatility, pace and attacking instinct.

SecretFly wrote:Who are Scotland playing next?  I hope they don't lose 'focus' now that they've played us.............

What I'm saying is.... keep it up...give the others a blast up the ar........................ a blast too.  Don't always save it for us.

We play Italy twice then France as our final warm up game.

There are far too many Irish fans "argeeing" with each other here. I'm off to a less sensible place.

rodders wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Rory - If Earls has "been fantastic" at 13 why haven't his coaches consistently played him there?  

The Munster coaches have actually, when he has been fit. As for Ireland, he is just back from injury, before that he had the greatest irish player ever playing at 13.

I genuinely believe the coaches view him as a 13 rather than a winger.

I genuinely believe they see him as a utility back - a guy who can cover wing and center rather than be a long term starter at either, which is good because that is essentially what he is.

He's also a very good finisher, which makes him a handy bench option but even on the wing I think he's not an 80 minute man due to his defensive and positional frailties and at 13 no coach in their right mind would line him up against a top 5 side out of choice.

That's not to devalue him - like Madigan and Zebo, if he's on form he brings something unique to the squad with his versatility, pace and attacking instinct.

And what does Payne, Bowe and Fitz bring to the table that makes them certainties to start? Lack of versatility, pace and attacking instinct?

Captain_Sensible wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Who are Scotland playing next?  I hope they don't lose 'focus' now that they've played us.............

What I'm saying is.... keep it up...give the others a blast up the ar........................ a blast too.  Don't always save it for us.

We play Italy twice then France as our final warm up game.

Italy twice doesn't seem like too much of what Vern would have wanted at this point in time. But then again, we haven't seen what Italy might bring yet. France.... decidedly firmer!

Vern himself has said that he doesn’t like having 4 warm up games – it was arranged by Andy Robinson having judged us to be underbooked last world cup.

Also, given our crunch game is against Somoa it would have been beneficial to play Tonga or Fiji – Italy won’t present the same type of challenge.

SecretFly wrote:

Captain_Sensible wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Who are Scotland playing next?  I hope they don't lose 'focus' now that they've played us.............

What I'm saying is.... keep it up...give the others a blast up the ar........................ a blast too.  Don't always save it for us.

We play Italy twice then France as our final warm up game.

Italy twice doesn't seem like too much of what Vern would have wanted at this point in time.  But then again, we haven't seen what Italy might bring yet.  France.... decidedly firmer!

Vern has already said that he isn't happy with having to play so many warm up games (the four were organised by the SRU after we only had two before the last World Cup and were very obviously undercooked at the start of that tourney).

My guess is that we won't see our nailed on starters (Russell, Hogg, Gray Jnr plus a few more) until the second Italy game at the earliest.

Anyone else think Tonks is 6th best 10 we have - that is after Finn, Jackson, Weir, Horne and Frodo ? Alan Massie didn't like him much at 10 either. Not a total failure but he just didn't get the backs going without jack on his shoulder.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Rory - If Earls has "been fantastic" at 13 why haven't his coaches consistently played him there?  

The Munster coaches have actually, when he has been fit. As for Ireland, he is just back from injury, before that he had the greatest irish player ever playing at 13.

I genuinely believe the coaches view him as a 13 rather than a winger.

I genuinely believe they see him as a utility back - a guy who can cover wing and center rather than be a long term starter at either, which is good because that is essentially what he is.

He's also a very good finisher, which makes him a handy bench option but even on the wing I think he's not an 80 minute man due to his defensive and positional frailties and at 13 no coach in their right mind would line him up against a top 5 side out of choice.

That's not to devalue him - like Madigan and Zebo, if he's on form he brings something unique to the squad with his versatility, pace and attacking instinct.

And what does Payne, Bowe and Fitz bring to the table that makes them certainties to start? Lack of versatility, pace and attacking instinct?

Payne and Bowe are proven top class players and Fitz plays for Leinster.

Oh...and what has Payne won that Fitz hasn't?