Ireland v Scotland, 15 August

George Carlin wrote:What interests me is any suggestion that Watson has a greater claim to the third openside shirt than Hardie. I cannot see why that should be. They probably have had the same amount of rugby over the past year. In Watson's favour is his familiarity with his Edinburgh colleagues and (being charitable) his single cap but there is not a clear and obvious reason to think that one is the better player.

Making a squad is not some sort of 'reward for service'. It's a meritocracy. Let's hope Cotter gives us a look at a number of players in these matches. Couldn't give a hoot who wins them.

George Carlin wrote:The other interesting player who might make the squad as a bolter is Jackson over Weir. Weir would correctly be distraught if that happened given that Jackson hasn't had a competitive game since last September but I wouldn't put it past Jackson to have a stormer in at least one of the games if he has any meaningful fitness.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:What interests me is any suggestion that Watson has a greater claim to the third openside shirt than Hardie. I cannot see why that should be. They probably have had the same amount of rugby over the past year. In Watson's favour is his familiarity with his Edinburgh colleagues and (being charitable) his single cap but there is not a clear and obvious reason to think that one is the better player.

Making a squad is not some sort of 'reward for service'. It's a meritocracy. Let's hope Cotter gives us a look at a number of players in these matches. Couldn't give a hoot who wins them.

Exactly my point. Now is not the time to be "looking at players". Watson has been involved in previous squad, knows and has played with most of the players before and has been in outstanding form for Edinburgh this season.

I can't comment on Hardie's form, I don't watch enough SH rugby, but in terms of judging him on merit, his lack of time with the squad (he hasn't even been part fo the pre-World Cup squad from day one for heaven's sake!!) and the other players counts heavily against him. If this were a meritocracy he wouldn't be near this squad. Surely being available for the entire pre-WC training camp would have been at least one criterion for World Cup selection?

If Hardie had only been able to join the squad on Monday, would you still pick him? What about if he hadn't been able to attend any of the pre-World Cup training squad? Still ok? Surely if he's good enough he could just jump straight in? Wouldn't that be a meritocracy?

You probably can't tell, but Hardie's selection mid-way through the WC preparations still p*sses me off. I was still trying to get comfortable with Strauss, who we can't even use in these games because he isn't "Scottish" yet!

Weegie Wizard wrote:For openside, I would have Barclay as the first choice by a country mile. I would also take Hardie and Watson but Cotter will select Cowan, probably at Watson's expense.

George Carlin wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:What interests me is any suggestion that Watson has a greater claim to the third openside shirt than Hardie. I cannot see why that should be. They probably have had the same amount of rugby over the past year. In Watson's favour is his familiarity with his Edinburgh colleagues and (being charitable) his single cap but there is not a clear and obvious reason to think that one is the better player.

Making a squad is not some sort of 'reward for service'. It's a meritocracy. Let's hope Cotter gives us a look at a number of players in these matches. Couldn't give a hoot who wins them.

Exactly my point. Now is not the time to be "looking at players". Watson has been involved in previous squad, knows and has played with most of the players before and has been in outstanding form for Edinburgh this season.

I can't comment on Hardie's form, I don't watch enough SH rugby, but in terms of judging him on merit, his lack of time with the squad (he hasn't even been part fo the pre-World Cup squad from day one for heaven's sake!!) and the other players counts heavily against him. If this were a meritocracy he wouldn't be near this squad. Surely being available for the entire pre-WC training camp would have been at least one criterion for World Cup selection?

If Hardie had only been able to join the squad on Monday, would you still pick him? What about if he hadn't been able to attend any of the pre-World Cup training squad? Still ok? Surely if he's good enough he could just jump straight in? Wouldn't that be a meritocracy?

You probably can't tell, but Hardie's selection mid-way through the WC preparations still p*sses me off. I was still trying to get comfortable with Strauss, who we can't even use in these games because he isn't "Scottish" yet!

Take what you like, just don't hit the money maker...

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Weegie Wizard wrote:For openside, I would have Barclay as the first choice by a country mile. I would also take Hardie and Watson but Cotter will select Cowan, probably at Watson's expense.

There is no chance of three specialist opensides being picked in the final 31. It'll be two maximum, and if Scott Johnson is consulted, probably none!

My fear is that he just takes Cowan, and uses Harley at 7 against USA.

George Carlin wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

George Carlin wrote:What interests me is any suggestion that Watson has a greater claim to the third openside shirt than Hardie. I cannot see why that should be. They probably have had the same amount of rugby over the past year. In Watson's favour is his familiarity with his Edinburgh colleagues and (being charitable) his single cap but there is not a clear and obvious reason to think that one is the better player.

Making a squad is not some sort of 'reward for service'. It's a meritocracy. Let's hope Cotter gives us a look at a number of players in these matches. Couldn't give a hoot who wins them.

Ooft, wait until Radge sees this!

I'll be hiding behind a sofa when that happens.

RDW_Scotland wrote:What would actually if if Strauss was picked? Could anyone actually physically stop him playing (or at least try to)? i.e. could the ref tell him he has to get off the pitch? Would be a bit of a farcical situation, but an interesting question nonetheless!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Regarding Struass, without opening up the debate too much again, it is a real pain in the hoop that his first caps will be during a world cup. Even if he became available for one warm up game I think it would make a big difference. I doubt any other team is going into the world cup looking to play a player with no caps!

But that's the situation we are in though, so we've got to make the most of it. if he's going to be selected for that squad, and I suspect he will be, in my mind that means (if he's allowed to) he should be part of the wider squad for all 4 games, do the warm up, be the water boy that runs on with messages and do the warm down etc.  That means he'll at least be up to speed with how an international game day works and how Scotland do things - i.e. his first game shouldn't be a complete step into the unknown.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I reckon we'll know a lot more after this match. If Denton or Ashe come in and play well we shouldn't need Strauss. He can go back to Glasgow and debut in the 6N.

However if Denton or Ashe fail to inspire in these warm ups Cotter's decision will be much more difficult. Barclay at 8 can work, it has done for the Scarlets this year and the simple truth is he has played more rugby at 8 than he has at 7 this season so even if Denton and Ashe don't play well Cotter has another option.

My feelings on Strauss are clear, however these games we need to look at combinations and building units that we can slot into place for the RWC itself. I don't want to hand out a Valuable squad berth to a player who hasn't played a test match yet.

I don't think any other team with our wealth of talent in the backrow would consider it an option either.

Captain_Sensible wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Regarding Struass, without opening up the debate too much again, it is a real pain in the hoop that his first caps will be during a world cup. Even if he became available for one warm up game I think it would make a big difference. I doubt any other team is going into the world cup looking to play a player with no caps!

But that's the situation we are in though, so we've got to make the most of it. if he's going to be selected for that squad, and I suspect he will be, in my mind that means (if he's allowed to) he should be part of the wider squad for all 4 games, do the warm up, be the water boy that runs on with messages and do the warm down etc.  That means he'll at least be up to speed with how an international game day works and how Scotland do things - i.e. his first game shouldn't be a complete step into the unknown.

Couldn't agree more, good post.

Captain_Sensible wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I reckon we'll know a lot more after this match. If Denton or Ashe come in and play well we shouldn't need Strauss. He can go back to Glasgow and debut in the 6N.

However if Denton or Ashe fail to inspire in these warm ups Cotter's decision will be much more difficult. Barclay at 8 can work, it has done for the Scarlets this year and the simple truth is he has played more rugby at 8 than he has at 7 this season so even if Denton and Ashe don't play well Cotter has another option.

My feelings on Strauss are clear, however these games we need to look at combinations and building units that we can slot into place for the RWC itself. I don't want to hand out a Valuable squad berth to a player who hasn't played a test match yet.

I don't think any other team with our wealth of talent in the backrow would consider it an option either.

In my view, discarding Strauss at this stage would be utter madness. He's miles ahead of the other options at 8, and perhaps even 6.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Captain_Sensible wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I reckon we'll know a lot more after this match. If Denton or Ashe come in and play well we shouldn't need Strauss. He can go back to Glasgow and debut in the 6N.

However if Denton or Ashe fail to inspire in these warm ups Cotter's decision will be much more difficult. Barclay at 8 can work, it has done for the Scarlets this year and the simple truth is he has played more rugby at 8 than he has at 7 this season so even if Denton and Ashe don't play well Cotter has another option.

My feelings on Strauss are clear, however these games we need to look at combinations and building units that we can slot into place for the RWC itself. I don't want to hand out a Valuable squad berth to a player who hasn't played a test match yet.

I don't think any other team with our wealth of talent in the backrow would consider it an option either.

In my view, discarding Strauss at this stage would be utter madness. He's miles ahead of the other options at 8, and perhaps even 6.

Lets just assume for 1 minute that I agree with you.

A back row that performs as a unit will always be a better back row than one that performs as individuals. The whole point in these warm up games is to test and try combinations to see what works. Strauss will not be taking part, his residency is a bit of inconvenient timing, however can we really hold a place for him based on what he might be able to do?

What if Ashe and Denton rampage around the field, score tries, carry strongly and do everything that is asked of them, which one do you cut Captain?

Captain_Sensible wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Captain_Sensible wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I reckon we'll know a lot more after this match. If Denton or Ashe come in and play well we shouldn't need Strauss. He can go back to Glasgow and debut in the 6N.

However if Denton or Ashe fail to inspire in these warm ups Cotter's decision will be much more difficult. Barclay at 8 can work, it has done for the Scarlets this year and the simple truth is he has played more rugby at 8 than he has at 7 this season so even if Denton and Ashe don't play well Cotter has another option.

My feelings on Strauss are clear, however these games we need to look at combinations and building units that we can slot into place for the RWC itself. I don't want to hand out a Valuable squad berth to a player who hasn't played a test match yet.

I don't think any other team with our wealth of talent in the backrow would consider it an option either.

In my view, discarding Strauss at this stage would be utter madness. He's miles ahead of the other options at 8, and perhaps even 6.

Lets just assume for 1 minute that I agree with you.

A back row that performs as a unit will always be a better back row than one that performs as individuals. The whole point in these warm up games is to test and try combinations to see what works. Strauss will not be taking part, his residency is a bit of inconvenient timing, however can we really hold a place for him based on what he might be able to do?

What if Ashe and Denton rampage around the field, score tries, carry strongly and do everything that is asked of them, which one do you cut Captain?

I'd have all three. Plus Harley, Barclay and one other openside. I think we need as many ball carriers in the squad as possible.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think Strauss plays better at 6 as well, with another ball carrier in the back row. In fact I think a Strauss, Barclay and Denton back row could be the mut's nuts.

RDW_Scotland wrote:In terms of the warm up games, it is probably worth remembering that Batman is banned for the first two.  That means for the first two games we have Harley, Stokosh Ashe and Denton to choose from for the 6/8 slots.

Will probably be one 6 and 8 for the first one then the other two for the second I can imagine.

RDW_Scotland wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31132973

Captain_Sensible wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think Strauss plays better at 6 as well, with another ball carrier in the back row. In fact I think a Strauss, Barclay and Denton back row could be the mut's nuts.

Yep, this is my preferred solution too. Harsh on Harley, but hey ho. I'd probably be more tempted by Ashe than Denton at 8, though. I still don't think Denton gets through enough work or distributes well enough.

RDW_Scotland wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31132973

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31132973

I had overlooked the fact that Wilson was fined £750. Jeez, they really threw the book at him.....

RDW_Scotland wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31132973

I had overlooked the fact that Wilson was fined £750. Jeez, they really threw the book at him.....

The 3 months without pay was probably the main problem for him...

George Carlin wrote:Irish posters - you'd be perfectly entitled to wonder WTF is going on here.

Unfortunately, if you're a Scotland fan, it all makes perfect sense.

RDW_Scotland wrote:I doubt any other team is going into the world cup looking to play a player with no caps!

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Irish posters - you'd be perfectly entitled to wonder WTF is going on here.

Unfortunately, if you're a Scotland fan, it all makes perfect sense.

I've lurked on enough Scottish threads to understand what's going on but that reminder of which nickname refers to which player is both hilarious and surprisingly informative and easy to understand.

Notch wrote:

We have three warm-up games and minus the five or six players who will be cut from the squad before Scotland, everyone will be getting some game time in those matches. Our hardest game will be England away from home, which is after the Scotland game. Our final game is against Wales at home- that is after the final selection and will probably be used to give our strongest team some time together.

So in our next game- it's hard to tell who will start. But I would say we are likely to see some of the really key players sit it out and play in the last two games. At the same time, there are a number of players who need game time due to not playing much last season including Chris Henry, Andrew Trimble (if recovered from mild injury which forced him off on Saturday), Madigan (who played a fair bit but  needs time at out half AND centre), Donnacha Ryan and Paddy Jackson (who played a bit but needs time kicking at goal).



Here's my guess at the team;

1. Dave Kilcoyne
2. Sean Cronin
3. Martin Moore*
4. Donnacha Ryan
5. Dan Tuohy
6. Iain Henderson
7. Chris Henry
8. Jordi Murphy
9. Isaac Boss
10. Paddy Jackson
11. Simon Zebo
12. Ian Madigan
13. Robbie Henshaw
14. Andrew Trimble*
15. Felix Jones

16. Rory Best 17. Michael Bent 18. Mike Ross 19. Devin Toner 20. Jamie Heaslip 21. Eoin Reddan 22. Darren Cave 23. Luke Fitzgerald*/Keith Earls

*May not be available due to injury niggle

Then, the next week against England we will see some of the big names come back into the starting line-up; Sean O'Brien, Peter O'Mahony, Jonny Sexton, Paul O'Connell, Jared Payne, Rob Kearney, Tommy Bowe and Jamie Heaslip and Best back in.