Ireland v Scotland, 15 August

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IRELAND v SCOTLAND
15 August 2015
KO: 17:00 local
Aviva Stadium, Dublin

Live on Sky Sports at Notch's house

Referee: Pascal Gaüzère (France)
Assistant Referees: [TBC]
TMO: [TBC]

A. Head to Head

130 Played 130
59 Won 66
5 Drawn 5
66 Lost 59
1,416 Points 1,420

B. Recent Form

21 March 2015
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
10 – 40 to Ireland

2 February 2014
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
28 – 6 to Ireland

24 February 2013
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
12 – 8 to Scotland

10 March 2012
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
32 – 14 to Ireland

6 August 2011
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
10 – 6 to Scotland

27 February 2011
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
18 – 21 to Ireland

20 March 2010
Croke Park, Dublin
20 – 23 to Scotland

C. Teams

IRELAND

15. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
13. Jared Payne (Ulster)
12. Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11. Luke Fitzgerald (Blackrock/Leinster)
10. Ian Madigan (Blackrock/Leinster)
09. Isaac Boss (Terenure/Leinster)

08. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster) capt
07. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
06. Jack Conan (Old Belvedere/Leinster)*
05. Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
04. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
03. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
02. Sean Cronin (St Mary's College/Leinster)
01. Dave Kilcoyne (UL Bohemians/Munster)

16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Michael Bent (Dublin University/Leinster)
18. Nathan White (Connacht)*
19. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster/Munster)
20. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
22. Paddy Jackson (Dungannon/Ulster)
23. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)

SCOTLAND

15 Ruaridh Jackson  (Wasps)
14 Sean Lamont  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
13 Richie Vernon  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
12 Peter Horne  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
11 Tim Visser  (Harlequins)
10 Greig Tonks  (Edinburgh  Rugby)
09 Henry Pyrgos  CAPTAIN  (Glasgow  Warriors)

01 Ryan Grant  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
02 Fraser Brown  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
03 Jon Welsh  (Newcastle  Falcons)
04 Jim Hamilton  (Saracens)  
05 Grant Gilchrist  (Edinburgh  Rugby)
06 Blair Cowan  (London  Irish)
07 Hugh Blake  (Glasgow  Warriors)
08 David Denton  (Edinburgh  Rugby)  

16 Ross Ford  (Edinburgh  Rugby)
17 Gordon Reid  (Glasgow  Warriors)
18 Mike Cusack  (Glasgow  Warriors)
19 Rob Harley  (Glasgow  Warriors)
20 John Barclay  (Scarlets)  
21 Sam Hidalgo-­Clyne  (Edinburgh  Rugby)
22 Duncan Weir  (Glasgow  Warriors)  
23 Matt  Scott  (Edinburgh  Rugby)

Oh here we go...

SecretFly wrote:Oh...and what has Payne won that Fitz hasn't?

Super rugby caps?

So? Fitz won the school end of year raffle twice in a row. Turkey voucher one year and a box of Lemon Sweets the next.

So they're still evens....

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Rory - If Earls has "been fantastic" at 13 why haven't his coaches consistently played him there?  

The Munster coaches have actually, when he has been fit. As for Ireland, he is just back from injury, before that he had the greatest irish player ever playing at 13.

I genuinely believe the coaches view him as a 13 rather than a winger.

I genuinely believe they see him as a utility back - a guy who can cover wing and center rather than be a long term starter at either, which is good because that is essentially what he is.

He's also a very good finisher, which makes him a handy bench option but even on the wing I think he's not an 80 minute man due to his defensive and positional frailties and at 13 no coach in their right mind would line him up against a top 5 side out of choice.

That's not to devalue him - like Madigan and Zebo, if he's on form he brings something unique to the squad with his versatility, pace and attacking instinct.

And what does Payne, Bowe and Fitz bring to the table that makes them certainties to start? Lack of versatility, pace and attacking instinct?

Payne and Bowe are proven top class players and Fitz plays for Leinster.

Gordon D'Arcy is a proven top class player. Would you bring him?

If the Irish and Munster coaches view him as a 13, then I think he will be competing with Henshaw after the World Cup, when lads like McCloskey and Olding are knocking on the door at 12, and I don't see him winning that battle. For now between himself and Payne it is very close, and I'm sure both will make the ferry as Joe will be thinking horses for courses

Marshes wrote:If the Irish and Munster coaches view him as a 13, then I think he will be competing with Henshaw after the World Cup, when lads like McCloskey and Olding are knocking on the door at 12, and I don't see him winning that battle. For now between himself and Payne it is very close, and I'm sure both will make the ferry as Joe will be thinking horses for courses

Wait and see if McClosley & Olding can get past Cave first for Ulster before deciding they have the No. 12 Jersey tied down.


edit: the Munster coaches just know he is one of the first names on the team sheet anywhere from 11 to 15.

Of course they have a long way to go, I'm saying my opinion will be that Henshaw will move to 13 after the World Cup where he is most effective

Sin é wrote:Wait and see if McClosley & Olding can get past Cave first for Ulster before deciding they have the No. 12 Jersey tied down.


edit: the Munster coaches just know he is one of the first names on the team sheet anywhere from 11 to 15.

If the Munster coaches are picking him in different positions - that implies that their selection is dependent on other players availability being taken into consideration first. In other words if Zebo is available to play 11 Earls won't play there, and similarly if Jones is available for 15 Earls isn't selected at fullback. Earls is the one being shunted around by his coaches because of his all-round talent, and this looks very like him being a jack of all trades yet master of none.

Earls has the ability to be the master of one position, but while the coaches move him from one to t'other there is a danger he will end up like Jeremy Staunton and never fully realise his potential.

Henshaw certainly has the potential to be designated 13 after a WC.  But of course all of that will depend on how the WC goes both for the team in general but most especially for him as a player who is still only in the making-my-mark stage of his International career.
Lucky or Unlucky for him that such a big occasion lands so soon on his plate, where he'll be largely commanded to put up or shut up as there will be no room for tourists, it'll be a damn sight more intense competition than the 6N that went before it and the sides we'll meet will test us to the limit.
We have Number 2 on our chests at the moment, whether we reach the world cup with that number is another thing but we're down as a side to be knocked off a perch.  We're approaching this WC from 'Up There' not our usual 'Down Here'.  That's a marked difference.  So this WC will be stern.  Nobody will be resting when meeting us.  They know they have to hit the ground running against us and they will.  France must be respected in that regard.

But all in all, I think there is a lot of premature chat about prospective futures of our younger players.  Time will tell.  Their sternest test arrives soon.  6N is a certain level - WC needs more.  We don't know yet whether we have it.

Marshes wrote:Of course they have a long way to go, I'm saying my opinion will be that Henshaw will move to 13 after the World Cup where he is most effective

And where is Jared Payne going? You think Olding or McCloskey will be starting the 6Ns with max. 2 weeks coaching from Joe beside a rookie 13 at international level?

Two solid 13s at least would be Joe's wishes, Sin....so there'd be room for Payne.....

..then again, that's kinda what Henshaw and Payne have been.... a 12 13 combination.... mixing it up.

Well that's the Ireland 13 shirt now been discussed over 4 pages of this thread.

If this is how much the Irish men folk debate things (assuming you're all blokes) I'd hate to get in a debate with your women!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Well that's the Ireland 13 shirt now been discussed over 4 pages of this thread.

If this is how much the Irish men folk debate things (assuming you're all blokes) I'd hate to get in a debate with your women!

Well the Scots have already moved onto their Italy thread..... we, as Irish tend to do, are just lingering after the bar has closed in this joint.....

The air is cooling as the extra heat of the Scots leaves with them.  We can hear the growing noise of passing traffic as Dublin bound commuters start their 4am marathon drives.  But here we are, still gazing at our empty glasses, looking at our toes, chewing the remaining cud of yesterday's evening.

We'll leave soon enough...but first the Kock must Krow  (Ks added in case the language-police app is in operation)

The Great Aukster wrote:

Sin é wrote:Wait and see if McClosley & Olding can get past Cave first for Ulster before deciding they have the No. 12 Jersey tied down.


edit: the Munster coaches just know he is one of the first names on the team sheet anywhere from 11 to 15.

If the Munster coaches are picking him in different positions - that implies that their selection is dependent on other players availability being taken into consideration first. In other words if Zebo is available to play 11 Earls won't play there, and similarly if Jones is available for 15 Earls isn't selected at fullback. Earls is the one being shunted around by his coaches because of his all-round talent, and this looks very like him being a jack of all trades yet master of none.

Earls has the ability to be the master of one position, but while the coaches move him from one to t'other there is a danger he will end up like Jeremy Staunton and never fully realise his potential.

He is usually either 13 or 14. He doesn't play 11 now as Munster have plenty of wingers. The issue has been that all our recent centres have lacked versatility - i.e., Casey Laulala & Andrew Smith. *

If Munster could clone him, he would be our best centre and our best right wing. He is a long, long way from being a jack of all trades and master of none.

*edit: and Gerhard VDH & Andrew Conway were injured at end of season who usually play No. 14.

SecretFly wrote:Two solid 13s at least would be Joe's wishes, Sin....so there'd be room for Payne.....

I think Henshaw is going to remain at 12. Why didn't Schmidt just move Payne to 12 and leave Henshaw at 13?

In the short term, I think you're right. I think Henshaw is every bit as effective at 12 as he would be at 13 and really the onus is on another player to force their way in.

Notch wrote:In the short term, I think you're right. I think Henshaw is every bit as effective at 12 as he would be at 13 and really the onus is on another player to force their way in.

I honestly don't know how anyone could come to that conclusion having watched Henshaw play for Connacht over the past few years. You would rather see one of the most exciting young backs in Ireland, who thrives with the extra space and picks some wonderful lines, confined to the role of a battering ram, which he has mostly been with Ireland? I've said before he can do this job to a high standard, but it certainly seems like a waste of his talents.

He was exceptional when he first came on the scene at fullback, as he weaved through players with ease, and he can still do that at 13 as he also has the added bonus of being a physical and powerful player. However, move him to 12 and those opportunities to seemingly glide through the defence are pretty much gone.

And yes, I do realise at international level those opportunities are rare regardless of where you play. However, we have seen some very exciting prospects for other countries do this very thing at 13 in the past season alone. Henshaw could be another.

Yeah I think that that is pretty much the role he will be asked to fulfil at 13 as well though- although it's true he'd have slightly more space at 13 to operate in, and have slightly more distribution responsibilities. I think it's a matter of when not if he makes the move out to 13 but before he does a) someone has to put their hand up at 12 and b) he has to get ahead of Jared Payne.

He's an unbelievable talent and I'm a massive fan of him. But I don't think it's outrageous to suggest that we're not going to see the same level of gliding through defences and beautifully floated passes from him as we do in Connacht at test level just because the higher level means he has less time and space, and defences are much tighter. We're going to see that massive amount of talent in flashes at this higher level, hopefully. We do see it at 12 with some of his line kicking which for me is a great reason to keep him at 12- so we actually have two centres who can step into the 10 slot and kick for whatever reason.

Put it this way- I think he is good enough to perform Paynes role in attack right now, and if he isn't in defence he should be soon. He's serving his apprenticeship inside the more experienced Payne and with the potential he has he will dislodge him at some point. But I don't think anyone else is quite ready to fill his shoes at 12.

I would not underrate just how good he has been at 12 for Ireland in my book. If you think when I said that he would be no more effective at 13 than 12 it was an insult of some kind, you're wrong. I think he has been absolutely superb for us at 12 and I think his contribution has been essential and will continue to be essential. We have a great deal of versatility in our back line with two centres who are great physical ball carriers and also can pass off either side and kick well. A lot of moves require one or both centres to run hard and straight but I think you do the job he has done a disservice by calling him a battering ram. You're right he can do more; but it's not a waste of his talents if its whats best for the team.

Anyway. If you suggest that we're going to improve the team by moving him out one, I disagree. Not because the gap between him and Payne is huge but because the gap between him and other inside centres is still big enough it would be a net loss. Hopefully McCloskey and/or Olding will change that.

Notch wrote:Yeah I think that that is pretty much the role he will be asked to fulfil at 13 as well though- although it's true he'd have slightly more space at 13 to operate in, and have slightly more distribution responsibilities. I think it's a matter of when not if he makes the move out to 13 but before he does a) someone has to put their hand up at 12 and b) he has to get ahead of Jared Payne.

He's an unbelievable talent and I'm a massive fan of him. But I don't think it's outrageous to suggest that we're not going to see the same level of gliding through defences and beautifully floated passes from him as we do in Connacht at test level just because the higher level means he has less time and space, and defences are much tighter. We're going to see that massive amount of talent in flashes at this higher level, hopefully. We do see it at 12 with some of his line kicking which for me is a great reason to keep him at 12- so we actually have two centres who can step into the 10 slot and kick for whatever reason.

Put it this way- I think he is good enough to perform Paynes role in attack right now, and if he isn't in defence he should be soon. He's serving his apprenticeship inside the more experienced Payne and with the potential he has he will dislodge him at some point. But I don't think anyone else is quite ready to fill his shoes at 12.

I would not underrate just how good he has been at 12 for Ireland in my book. If you think when I said that he would be no more effective at 13 than 12 it was an insult of some kind, you're wrong. I think he has been absolutely superb for us at 12 and I think his contribution has been essential and will continue to be essential. We have a great deal of versatility in our back line with two centres who are great physical ball carriers and also can pass off either side and kick well. A lot of moves require one or both centres to run hard and straight but I think you do the job he has done a disservice by calling him a battering ram. You're right he can do more; but it's not a waste of his talents if its whats best for the team.

Anyway. If you suggest that we're going to improve the team by moving him out one, I disagree. Not because the gap between him and Payne is huge but because the gap between him and other inside centres is still big enough it would be a net loss. Hopefully McCloskey and/or Olding will change that.

For the World Cup I don't think moving him out will improve the team at all, the other options are too green or not as good. I do agree with that, absolutely. However, I think with other fantastic options coming through at 12 in the near future, he will have the chance to thrive where he is best. McCloskey/Olding/potentially Marshall can all do their thing at 12 better, in my opinion. As for not being as good at Payne at 13, I think it is obvious that Payne is currently lacking a certain cutting edge to his game, which Henshaw has the potential to really exploit given the chance.

We have already witnessed a few very exciting 13s look very dangerous indeed at test level this year; Jonathan Joseph and Jesse Kriel come to mind. I also believe that Earls will do the same if he is given the chance at 13 for any of the games he is involved in. Some players just seem to possess that ability to cut the defence to pieces, and I believe Earls/Henshaw fit the bill.

Why should 12 be a battering ram - guys like Giteau and Fofana seem to do all right there. Luke Marshall was badly handled by Anscombe but he was closer to Paddy Wallace than Rob Dewey, and while the bosh game of a Roberts or Burgess is effective it's not the only way. The job of the 12 is to fix the defence and if there's a big guy there that will do the trick but if there's a guy who can beat people that's at least as good. Having a player like Henshaw at 12 is not wasting his talents at all.

The Great Aukster wrote:Why should 12 be a battering ram - guys like Giteau and Fofana seem to do all right there. Luke Marshall was badly handled by Anscombe but he was closer to Paddy Wallace than Rob Dewey, and while the bosh game of a Roberts or Burgess is effective it's not the only way. The job of the 12 is to fix the defence and if there's a big guy there that will do the trick but if there's a guy who can beat people that's at least as good. Having a player like Henshaw at 12 is not wasting his talents at all.

That isn't the point I am making. There are clearly many different players with different sets of skills to utilise at 12. The point I am trying to make is that some players are clearly more suited to 12 than others, where they can effectively create space for others and make the most out of the little space and time they have on the ball. This is why there are plenty of 10s/12s around, it requires a similar quick mind to make those split second decisions. Unless they are a Roberts-esque player who is used primarily as a battering ram, which can be effective in the right team.

The likes of Fofana are small and powerful with quick feet which is a perfect combination for the position, one that Stuart Olding could eventually provide for Ireland. Or you have the likes of SBW who is big and powerful with a good offload. Also a very good option, and one that Stuart McCloskey could also provide in the future.

Robbie Henshaw is currently being utilised primarily as a direct carrying option, as part of a rather blunt Ireland attack. He is quite clearly not being used where he can inflict the most damage on the opposition defence, that is clear to most who have been watching him since he first came on the scene. It is a bit like the argument people are making for Earls not being best used at 13, which I disagree with personally, but people claim that his strengths are best used elsewhere. I believe that to be the case for Henshaw.

As I have said before, Henshaw will do a good job, he is big and powerful and he has a good offloading game. However, he is also a very silky runner who can do a lot of damage in the wider channels. I remember being amazed at the ease of which he glided through defences when he first came on the scene as a fullback for Connacht. And I have compared his running lines/style to that of Tommy Bowe before, who would also have been a clever, powerful runner at 12. I'm much happier they left him out wide though (although he did play at 13 with the Ospreys).

Henshaw seems to be able to slot into different positions are ease. He is one of the best allrounders in the squad and made a huge difference this year to Irelands midfield. He has shown nice pieces of skill for a 12 as well as the physicality AND speed. A nice combination to have. I'd say opposition coaches would find him difficult to analyse compared to the more one dimensional centers.
I've been surprised by Payne. He hasn't really been creative but he has been very solid. I still think 15 is his best position but he is doing a good job in the center.
We've yet to see the best of the Henshaw/Payne partnership.


There'll be a nice selection of centers in a year or two. There seems to be a few popping up every year.

I've been away from this thread for a bit.

Have you all figured out whether it should be Earls or Payne yet?

What's the answer? I just need to know for the purposes of sounding knowledgeable in the pub.

Yeah, I've got a networking event at a rugby club next week, and this kind of knowledge is absolute gold.

Sin é wrote:
Gordon D'Arcy is a proven top class player. Would you bring him?

Correction - Gordon D'arcy was a proven top class player. There is very little evidence post 2010 that he is still international standard.

Henshaw and Payne are a current proven top class combination, having defeated the spring boks and secured a 6N title.

My back up would for the RWC be Cave (12 and 13) and Earls (13 and wing), as having 1 option per position is not sufficient to be a top class side and win the tournament. If D'arcy goes he goes but I wouldn't have confidence in him to start against any top tier side.

Madigan is a 3rd option at 12 so that is decent cover, with Henshaw able to push out one if needed. Bowe can also step in.

Post RWC I'd still see Henshaw and Payne being the main two, with competition from not just from Cave and Earls but Reid, McCloskey, Olding, Marshall and longer term Ringrose.

I wonder do Kiwi fans cry over their cornflakes when Sonny Bill, Fekitoa or Ben Smith don't start or do they accept that they have lots of good players and support whoever wears the jersey in a given match?

The Great Aukster wrote:Why should 12 be a battering ram - guys like Giteau and Fofana

Giteau has done well at Toulon as a auxiliary 10 behind a monster Toulon pack - for the Wallabies he has been battered from pillar to post in his first few outings.

The nature of the game now is that the inside center must have the physicality to win collisions against the opposition backrow and midfield - having skill and vision is a given but the power and athleticism is not a nice to have anymore - there are very few inside centers under 100kg and many are 105kg plus. D'arcy had all sorts of problems against Scotland.

Henshaw and Payne are a relatively small combination and for me are picked not just because they are physical, although that is a bonus, but because they are the best footballers we have in the backline at the minute - Henshaw has brilliant hands and Payne has great vision and awareness of space.

The fact that Cave, D'arcy, Olding and Earls have all been looked at as back ups shows Schmidt is not looking at size primarily for midfield a la Gatland.

Henshaw, Payne, Cave, Earls.....................
Henshaw, Payne, Cave, Earls...........................
Henshaw, Payne, Cave, Earls...................
Henshaw, Payne, Cave, Earls...........................
Henshaw, Payne, Cave, Earls....................
Henshaw, Payne, Cave, Earls..................................
Henshaw, Payne, Cave, Earls.............
Henshaw, Payne, Cave, Earls

Only one way to sort this out!

FIGHT!!!!!!!!

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Gordon D'Arcy is a proven top class player. Would you bring him?

Correction - Gordon D'arcy was a proven top class player. There is very little evidence post 2010 that he is still international standard.

Henshaw and Payne are a current proven top class combination, having defeated the spring boks and secured a 6N title.

My back up would for the RWC be Cave (12 and 13) and Earls (13 and wing), as having 1 option per position is not sufficient to be a top class side and win the tournament. If D'arcy goes he goes but I wouldn't have confidence in him to start against any top tier side.

Madigan is a 3rd option at 12 so that is decent cover, with Henshaw able to push out one if needed. Bowe can also step in.

Post RWC I'd still see Henshaw and Payne being the main two, with competition from not just from Cave and Earls but Reid, McCloskey, Olding, Marshall and longer term Ringrose.

I wonder do Kiwi fans cry over their cornflakes when Sonny Bill, Fekitoa or Ben Smith don't start or do they accept that they have lots of good players and support whoever wears the jersey in a given match?

Jared Payne is a long way from being a Conrad Smith or Ma'ma Nonu.

Sin é wrote:
Jared Payne is a long way from being a Conrad Smith or Ma'ma Nonu.

And Keith Earls is a long way from being Fekitoa, what's your point.

tigertattie wrote:Henshaw, Payne, Cave, Earls.....................
Henshaw, Payne, Cave, Earls...........................
Henshaw, Payne, Cave, Earls...................
Henshaw, Payne, Cave, Earls...........................
Henshaw, Payne, Cave, Earls....................
Henshaw, Payne, Cave, Earls..................................
Henshaw, Payne, Cave, Earls.............
Henshaw, Payne, Cave, Earls

Only one way to sort this out!

FIGHT!!!!!!!!

Or alternatively, if you think it should be Cave, call 0898 500 2301. If you think it should be Payne, call...(etc)

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Jared Payne is a long way from being a Conrad Smith or Ma'ma Nonu.

And Keith Earls is a long way from being Fekitoa, what's your point.

Not as far as Jared Payne is though!

Henshaw would be the Fekitoa of that relationship. Plays 13 for club and 12 internationally. Jared Payne is no Conrad Smith.

Haaaaaaaaaa. Look how off his feet Sean O'Brien is!!!! His legs are above his head!!

Result - play on Ireland ball.

rodders wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Why should 12 be a battering ram - guys like Giteau and Fofana

Giteau has done well at Toulon as a auxiliary 10 behind a monster Toulon pack - for the Wallabies he has been battered from pillar to post in his first few outings.

The nature of the game now is that the inside center must have the physicality to win collisions against the opposition backrow and midfield - having skill and vision is a given but the power and athleticism is not a nice to have anymore - there are very few inside centers under 100kg and many are 105kg plus. D'arcy had all sorts of problems against Scotland.

Henshaw and Payne are a relatively small combination and for me are picked not just because they are physical, although that is a bonus, but because they are the best footballers we have in the backline at the minute - Henshaw has brilliant hands and Payne has great vision and awareness of space.

The fact that Cave, D'arcy, Olding and Earls have all been looked at as back ups shows Schmidt is not looking at size primarily for midfield a la Gatland.

I wouldn't rate Payne as a footballer. Olding, Henshaw & Earls yes.

Um, I don't think you understand what happened there. He was eventually cleared out off his feet by a Scottish player but if there is any offence, the first offence was the Scottish player not releasing the ball. The referee has allowed play to continue, but the ball would be coming back faster and legally if the Scottish player releases. I think Ireland are sightly hard done by not to get the penalty in that instance but the have won the ball and you can't fault the referee for letting the game flow.

But in any event if a player is in a legal body position and is then pulled off his feet by the opposition it's only going to be a penalty if he continues to try and play the ball after being forced off his feet. But actually he's already gotten over the ball and won it by by the time he's cleared out; so play on.

Notch wrote:Um, I don't think you understand what happened there. He was eventually cleared out off his feet by a Scottish player but if there is any offence, the first offence was the Scottish player not releasing the ball. The referee has allowed play to continue, but the ball would be coming back faster and legally if the Scottish player releases. I think Ireland are sightly hard done by not to get the penalty in that instance but the have won the ball and you can't fault the referee for letting the game flow.

But in any event if a player is in a legal body position and is then pulled off his feet by the opposition it's only going to be a penalty if he continues to try and play the ball after being forced off his feet. But actually he's already gotten over the ball and won it by by the time he's cleared out; so play on.

O'Brien is on his knees before any of that.

Penalty Scotland.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Haaaaaaaaaa. Look how off his feet Sean O'Brien is!!!! His legs are above his head!!

Result - play on Ireland ball.

See that's the point I was making on the other thread.

It's the wru to blame for this for getting RL coaches involved in grassroots rugby.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote:Um, I don't think you understand what happened there. He was eventually cleared out off his feet by a Scottish player but if there is any offence, the first offence was the Scottish player not releasing the ball. The referee has allowed play to continue, but the ball would be coming back faster and legally if the Scottish player releases. I think Ireland are sightly hard done by not to get the penalty in that instance but the have won the ball and you can't fault the referee for letting the game flow.

But in any event if a player is in a legal body position and is then pulled off his feet by the opposition it's only going to be a penalty if he continues to try and play the ball after being forced off his feet. But actually he's already gotten over the ball and won it by by the time he's cleared out; so play on.

O'Brien is on his knees before any of that.

Penalty Scotland.

That would be an awful decision, it's like we're in opposite land.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Why should 12 be a battering ram - guys like Giteau and Fofana

Giteau has done well at Toulon as a auxiliary 10 behind a monster Toulon pack - for the Wallabies he has been battered from pillar to post in his first few outings.

The nature of the game now is that the inside center must have the physicality to win collisions against the opposition backrow and midfield - having skill and vision is a given but the power and athleticism is not a nice to have anymore - there are very few inside centers under 100kg and many are 105kg plus. D'arcy had all sorts of problems against Scotland.

Henshaw and Payne are a relatively small combination and for me are picked not just because they are physical, although that is a bonus, but because they are the best footballers we have in the backline at the minute - Henshaw has brilliant hands and Payne has great vision and awareness of space.

The fact that Cave, D'arcy, Olding and Earls have all been looked at as back ups shows Schmidt is not looking at size primarily for midfield a la Gatland.

I wouldn't rate Payne as a footballer. Olding, Henshaw & Earls yes.

Of course he's a footballer - that's why he played fullback - Earls is a makeshift winger, the other 3 are footballers.

Hmmm. I wonder what would happen if Ireland lose in the last minute of the world cup final to a similar refereeing decision against them, and we say "the ref was just letting the game flow".

Irish Opinion would be slightly different then I suspect.

Notch wrote:

That would be an awful decision, it's like we're in opposite land.

Why, because it's against Ireland?

It is 100% against the lawbook.

No it would be an awful decision because one of his knees kisses the turf before he rights himself and gets in a strong body position where he is completely supporting his own weight. Now if a player is leaning on the ground on one or both knees and using that extra support to get over the ball then it's obviously a penalty. But players slip and slide all the time; to penalise that would be a dire decision because a) it's not an intentional act to gain an advantage and b) it has no material bearing on him winning the ball.

I said the referee was letting the game flow in favour of Scotland, not Ireland, because there is only one side that can argue that they should have had a penalty there and they aren't wearing blue!

It's a fantastic piece of play by O'Brien.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Why should 12 be a battering ram - guys like Giteau and Fofana

Giteau has done well at Toulon as a auxiliary 10 behind a monster Toulon pack - for the Wallabies he has been battered from pillar to post in his first few outings.

The nature of the game now is that the inside center must have the physicality to win collisions against the opposition backrow and midfield - having skill and vision is a given but the power and athleticism is not a nice to have anymore - there are very few inside centers under 100kg and many are 105kg plus. D'arcy had all sorts of problems against Scotland.

Henshaw and Payne are a relatively small combination and for me are picked not just because they are physical, although that is a bonus, but because they are the best footballers we have in the backline at the minute - Henshaw has brilliant hands and Payne has great vision and awareness of space.

The fact that Cave, D'arcy, Olding and Earls have all been looked at as back ups shows Schmidt is not looking at size primarily for midfield a la Gatland.

I wouldn't rate Payne as a footballer. Olding, Henshaw & Earls yes.

Of course he's a footballer - that's why he played fullback - Earls is a makeshift winger, the other 3 are footballers.

Do you actually know what a footballer is?

Notch wrote:No it would be an awful decision because one of his knees kisses the turf before he rights himself and gets in a strong body position where he is completely supporting his own weight. Now if a player is leaning on the ground on one or both knees and using that extra support to get over the ball then it's obviously a penalty. But players slip and slide all the time; to penalise that would be a dire decision because a) it's not an intentional act to gain an advantage and b) it has no material bearing on him winning the ball.

I said the referee was letting the game flow in favour of Scotland, not Ireland, because there is only one side that can argue that they should have had a penalty there and they aren't wearing blue!

It's a fantastic piece of play by O'Brien.

Kisses the turf. Lol. You are utterly deluded.



It is utterly illegal. Twice.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Why should 12 be a battering ram - guys like Giteau and Fofana

Giteau has done well at Toulon as a auxiliary 10 behind a monster Toulon pack - for the Wallabies he has been battered from pillar to post in his first few outings.

The nature of the game now is that the inside center must have the physicality to win collisions against the opposition backrow and midfield - having skill and vision is a given but the power and athleticism is not a nice to have anymore - there are very few inside centers under 100kg and many are 105kg plus. D'arcy had all sorts of problems against Scotland.

Henshaw and Payne are a relatively small combination and for me are picked not just because they are physical, although that is a bonus, but because they are the best footballers we have in the backline at the minute - Henshaw has brilliant hands and Payne has great vision and awareness of space.

The fact that Cave, D'arcy, Olding and Earls have all been looked at as back ups shows Schmidt is not looking at size primarily for midfield a la Gatland.

I wouldn't rate Payne as a footballer. Olding, Henshaw & Earls yes.

Of course he's a footballer - that's why he played fullback - Earls is a makeshift winger, the other 3 are footballers.

Do you actually know what a footballer is?

Well in a rugby union context I'd say its someone with a natural awareness, vision and in depth understanding of the game beyond the players around them and then the skill levels to put people into space and create opportunities.

So definitely not Earls given how he himself said in the past how he struggles to understand the game and decision making from midfield.

Darren Cave is a great footballer for example, as is Conrad Smith.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Notch wrote:No it would be an awful decision because one of his knees kisses the turf before he rights himself and gets in a strong body position where he is completely supporting his own weight. Now if a player is leaning on the ground on one or both knees and using that extra support to get over the ball then it's obviously a penalty. But players slip and slide all the time; to penalise that would be a dire decision because a) it's not an intentional act to gain an advantage and b) it has no material bearing on him winning the ball.

I said the referee was letting the game flow in favour of Scotland, not Ireland, because there is only one side that can argue that they should have had a penalty there and they aren't wearing blue!

It's a fantastic piece of play by O'Brien.

Kisses the turf. Lol. You are utterly deluded.



It is utterly illegal. Twice.

Only in RL.

rodders wrote:

Only in RL.

You're very odd.

Chunky you really are a one issue party aren't you? The colour green seems to send you into a tizzy

Marshes wrote:Chunky you really are a one issue party aren't you? The colour green seems to send you into a tizzy

The levels of delusion just astound me.