England v France, 15 August

  
ENGLAND v FRANCE
15 August 2015
KO: 20:00 local
Twickenham, London

Live on telly

Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
Assistant Referees: George Clancy (Ireland) & Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Television match official: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

99 Played 99
54 Won 38
7 Drawn 7
38 Lost 54
1,553 Points 1,230

B. Recent Form

21 March 2015
Twickenham, London
55 – 35 to England

1 February 2014
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
26 – 24 to France

23 February 2013
Twickenham, London
23 – 13 to England

11 March 2012
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
22 – 24 to England

8 October 2011
Eden Park, Auckland, New Zealand
19 – 12 to France

C. Teams

ENGLAND

Alex Goode; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Sam Burgess, Jonny May; Owen Farrell, Richard Wigglesworth; Mako Vunipola, Rob Webber, Kieran Brookes, George Kruis, Geoff Parling, Tom Wood, Calum Clark, Ben Morgan

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Alex Corbisiero, David Wilson, Dave Attwood, James Haskell, Danny Care, Danny Cipriani, Billy Twelvetrees

FRANCE

Scott Spedding; Sofiane Guitoune, Remi Lamerat, Alexandre Dumoulin, Brice Dulin; Francois Trinh-Duc, Morgan Parra; Louis Picamoles, Fulgence Ouedraogo, Yannick Nyanga; Yoann Maestri, Alexandre Flanquart; Nicolas Mas, Dimitri Szarzewski, Vincent Debaty

Replacements: Guilhem Guirado, Xavier Chiocci, Uini Atonio, Sebastien Vahaamahina, Loann Goujon, Rory Kockott, Remi Tales, Gael Fickou

England team:

A Goode (Saracens); A Watson (Bath), H Slade (Exeter), S Burgess (Bath), J May (Gloucester); O Farrell (Saracens), R Wigglesworth (Saracens); M Vunipola (Saracens), R Webber (Bath), K Brookes (Northampton), G Kruis (Saracens), G Parling (Exeter), T Wood (Northampton), C Clark (Northampton), B Morgan (Gloucester).

Replacements: L Cowan-Dickie (Exeter), A Corbisiero (Northampton), D Wilson (Bath), D Attwood (Bath), J Haskell (Wasps), D Care (Harlequins), D Cipriani (Sale), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester).

French squad:

AVANTS (14)

Piliers
1- UINI ATONIO (Atlantique Stade Rochelais)
2- XAVIER CHIOCCI (RC Toulon)
3- VINCENT DEBATY (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
4- NICOLAS MAS (Montpellier Hérault Rugby)
5- RABAH SLIMANI (Stade Français Paris)

Talonneurs
6- GUILHEM GUIRADO (RC Toulon)
7- DIMITRI SZARZEWSKI (Racing 92)

Deuxièmes lignes
8- ALEXANDRE FLANQUART (Stade Français Paris)
9- YOANN MAESTRI (Stade Toulousain)
10- SEBASTIEN VAHAAMAHINA (ASM Clermont Auvergne)

Troisièmes lignes Ailes
11- YANNICK NYANGA (Racing 92)
12- FULGENCE OUEDRAOGO (Montpellier Hérault Rugby)

Troisièmes lignes Centre
13- LOANN GOUJON (Union Bordeaux Bègles)
14- LOUIS PICAMOLES (Stade Toulousain)

ARRIERES (11)

Demis de mêlée
15- RORY KOCKOTT (Castres Olympique)
16- MORGAN PARRA (ASM Clermont Auvergne)

Demis d’ouverture
17- REMI TALES (Racing 92)
18- FRANCOIS TRINH-DUC (Montpellier Hérault Rugby)

Centres
19- ALEXANDRE DUMOULIN (Racing 92)
20- GAEL FICKOU (Stade Toulousain)
21- REMI LAMERAT (Castres Olympique)

Ailiers/Arrières
22- BRICE DULIN (Racing 92)
23- SOFIANE GUITOUNE (Union Bordeaux Bègles)
24- YOANN HUGET (Stade Toulousain)
25- SCOTT SPEDDING (ASM Clermont Auvergne)

For a brief moment there I did think we were back to the Lievremont days with Chiocci at hooker and Mas + Slimani in the second row for France.

Looking forward to this game, really glad to see Ben Morgan back. Going into RWC with just BV as the main carrier was going to be a bit of a stretch!

Interested to see how Callum Clark goes in this game, he didn't stand out when i've seen him for the Saxons. He's had a pretty good season but I question the value of having two Woodshaw type players at 6 and 7.

Chjw131 wrote:Looking forward to this game, really glad to see Ben Morgan back. Going into RWC with just BV as the main carrier was going to be a bit of a stretch!

Interested to see how Callum Clark goes in this game, he didn't stand out when i've seen him for the Saxons. He's had a pretty good season but I question the value of having two Woodshaw type players at 6 and 7.

have you been drinking

I was looking forward to seeing Burgess and Bastareaud fight it out in midfield, not going to happen.

How do you think this French side compares to England in terms of 2nd string or mostly players playing for their place in the final 31?

England only have Wood and either Watson/May as a "certain" starters in their XV, with Watson/May, Webber, Morgan, Haskell and either Care or Wiggy being benched.

To me the French squad has a lot more seasoned internationals and likely 1st XV players.

If we do well, it should pose some interesting problems for SL.

The French pack doesn't look far off 1st choice. The backs are a bit more experimental, but overall the French are fielding closer to a RWC team than England. Still hard to predict, but will go for a narrow French win. 30-25.

Hard to tell who is first choice in a french team during PSA era... Front row is likely to be. maestri is so would be Picamoles if he gets back to his pre-injury/illness form. Everyone isnt bar the fullback but might become. Certainly refreshing 10-12-13 combo (assuming it is TD-Dumoulin-Lamerat/Fickou), almost exciting after the dullness shown by Fofana and Bastareaud recently.

Oh dear. This could be messier than Ireland v Wales.

Gwlad wrote:Oh dear. This could be messier than Ireland v Wales.

Don't count on it. The England teams that faced France in the 6N in 2012, 2013 and 2014 had the same level of aggregate experience as this one, and you can see the results at the top of the page. The worst result was a 2-point loss away from home to a magnificent French try in the dying minutes. It doesn't bear comparison with the way the Welsh second string got their backsides handed to them last week.

Poorfour wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Oh dear. This could be messier than Ireland v Wales.

Don't count on it. The England teams that faced France in the 6N in 2012, 2013 and 2014 had the same level of aggregate experience as this one, and you can see the results at the top of the page. The worst result was a 2-point loss away from home to a magnificent French try in the dying minutes. It doesn't bear comparison with the way the Welsh second string got their backsides handed to them last week.

Spectacularly built yourselves up for a fall there. I hope your hubris is borne out. Day, Moriarty, Smith, Anscombe, Amos, Walker, Morgan x2, hardly a 2nd string!

Gwlad wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Oh dear. This could be messier than Ireland v Wales.

Don't count on it. The England teams that faced France in the 6N in 2012, 2013 and 2014 had the same level of aggregate experience as this one, and you can see the results at the top of the page. The worst result was a 2-point loss away from home to a magnificent French try in the dying minutes. It doesn't bear comparison with the way the Welsh second string got their backsides handed to them last week.

Spectacularly built yourselves up for a fall there. I hope your hubris is borne out. Day, Moriarty, Smith, Anscombe, Amos, Walker, Morgan x2,  hardly a 2nd string!

Who would be Wales 2nd string centres to Roberts & Williams?

Gwlad wrote:Oh dear. This could be messier than Ireland v Wales.

Keep hoping eh

I think this World Cup has come a year too early for England's liking, but the draw is favourable to Lancaster's lads, so they still have a decent fist of conquering the rugby world once more.

Hopefully, Bomber can nail down something conclusive from this fixture - perhaps Burgess can showcase some of his glittering Union potential, or maybe Webber can be scintillating in both the loose and the lineout, thus showing Hartley isn't too much of a loss?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Oh dear. This could be messier than Ireland v Wales.

Don't count on it. The England teams that faced France in the 6N in 2012, 2013 and 2014 had the same level of aggregate experience as this one, and you can see the results at the top of the page. The worst result was a 2-point loss away from home to a magnificent French try in the dying minutes. It doesn't bear comparison with the way the Welsh second string got their backsides handed to them last week.

Spectacularly built yourselves up for a fall there. I hope your hubris is borne out. Day, Moriarty, Smith, Anscombe, Amos, Walker, Morgan x2,  hardly a 2nd string!

Who would be  Wales 2nd string centres to Roberts & Williams?

Given this week's cut, it was perhaps a 3rd string with token 1st and 4th team players. Something I highlighted before the match FYI.

Bigtrevsbigmac; I would say North and Tyler Morgan. So let's hope Roberts and Williams don't pick up a serious injury! Anyway, quite looking forward to the England vs France game.

mikey_dragon wrote:Given this week's cut, it was perhaps a 3rd string with token 1st and 4th team players. Something I highlighted before the match FYI.

Bigtrevsbigmac; I would say North and Tyler Morgan. So let's hope Roberts and Williams don't pick up a serious injury! Anyway, quite looking forward to the England vs France game.

Before the cut there were 46 players in the squad - i.e. two full matchday squads. Even if you view first string as the starting XV only, then there must have been at least 8 second string players in the 23, and at most one 4th string, unless Gatland has left some better players out of his training squad.

This England squad is picked from a squad of 38, so there will be at least 8 players in it who should make the matchday 23, and therefore a maximum of eight 3rd stringers. It looks like the French squad probably has 2 or 3 more likely first stringers, but I think the gap is smaller than the one between the Welsh and Irish sides last week.

Poorfour, fourth string players in their position in Gats eyes; Smith, Hibbard, Thornton, Patchell, Phillips, Hook, Day, M.Morgan, Scott Andrews (although he'll remain in the squad for now, he has to be!).

I'd say Dacey, Williams, Anscombe, Allen, Walker, Dixon, King, Baker, Moriarty, James (my opinion is he's behind Evans for LH), Jarvis, Cuthbert going by recent form and their capabilities are all third choice.

The majority of players here played against Ireland. If you don't watch Pro12 you wouldn't know that Ireland have great strength in depth at the moment, perhaps the best it's been. I'm quite envious of that. So maybe it's skewed in your head with new caps and the fact that some players can cover elsewhere if needs be?

EDIT - there are injuries and some new caps to given out still.

There isnt much difference between France 1st and 2nd string teams. Such is the depth or erratic form and coaching we have been enjoying (pick whichever suits your argument best ).

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Oh dear. This could be messier than Ireland v Wales.

Don't count on it. The England teams that faced France in the 6N in 2012, 2013 and 2014 had the same level of aggregate experience as this one, and you can see the results at the top of the page. The worst result was a 2-point loss away from home to a magnificent French try in the dying minutes. It doesn't bear comparison with the way the Welsh second string got their backsides handed to them last week.

Spectacularly built yourselves up for a fall there. I hope your hubris is borne out. Day, Moriarty, Smith, Anscombe, Amos, Walker, Morgan x2,  hardly a 2nd string!

Who would be  Wales 2nd string centres to Roberts & Williams?

We don't have any 2nd string. It was Williams who by default is now 1st string, our remaining centres are 3rd string.

mikey_dragon wrote:Poorfour, fourth string players in their position in Gats eyes; Smith, Hibbard, Thornton, Patchell, Phillips, Hook, Day, M.Morgan, Scott Andrews (although he'll remain in the squad for now, he has to be!).

I'd say Dacey, Williams, Anscombe, Allen, Walker, Dixon, King, Baker, Moriarty, James (my opinion is he's behind Evans for LH), Jarvis, Cuthbert going by recent form and their capabilities are all third choice.

The majority of players here played against Ireland. If you don't watch Pro12 you wouldn't know that Ireland have great strength in depth at the moment, perhaps the best it's been. I'm quite envious of that. So maybe it's skewed in your head with new caps and the fact that some players can cover elsewhere if needs be?

EDIT - there are injuries and some new caps to given out still.

Your definition of 4th string is clearly different from mine. I would define first string as the best player in each position, second string as the next best etc. 4th string players have three better players ahead of them. 3 x 15 = 45. So by definition in a squad of 46 there's room for 15 3rd string and at most 1 4th string. The other 30 are your 1st and 2nd string.

You've listed 9 "4th string" players and 12 3rd string. To be in that position implies you've got 3 3rd string and therefore 5 1st and 2nd string players out injured.

If that really is the case, then I feel very sorry for Wales and their fans but it would seem to support my view that Gatland over trains his squads if he has a significant number of injuries after a summer off.

By the way, I'm not denying Ireland's relative strength in depth; I'm just responding to Gwlad's assertion that Wales didn't field a second string squad. If the bottom 23 of a squad of 46 aren't actually a second string, then you're in a pretty dire situation.

mikey_dragon wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Oh dear. This could be messier than Ireland v Wales.

Don't count on it. The England teams that faced France in the 6N in 2012, 2013 and 2014 had the same level of aggregate experience as this one, and you can see the results at the top of the page. The worst result was a 2-point loss away from home to a magnificent French try in the dying minutes. It doesn't bear comparison with the way the Welsh second string got their backsides handed to them last week.

Spectacularly built yourselves up for a fall there. I hope your hubris is borne out. Day, Moriarty, Smith, Anscombe, Amos, Walker, Morgan x2,  hardly a 2nd string!

Who would be  Wales 2nd string centres to Roberts & Williams?

Given this week's cut, it was perhaps a 3rd string with token 1st and 4th team players. Something I highlighted before the match FYI.

Bigtrevsbigmac; I would say North and Tyler Morgan. So let's hope Roberts and Williams don't pick up a serious injury! Anyway, quite looking forward to the England vs France game.

Mikey Dragon - So Tyler Morgan is 2nd string & he started against Ireland. Presumably North would start on the wing & then possibly have to move to centre & it's looking a bit bare & that's assuming Liam is fit?

Bare is an Understatement. Morgan is almost guaranteed a place and will be playing in both warm ups IMO as he needs to come on and quickly. North has to provide the extra back up but if we lose Doc then we can kiss the RWC goodbye.

Don't really know what I want from this match. Well, a win would be nice. Then again, not sure I really want Burgess to have a blinder, because I think he'll get found out if he's selected for the tournament. Also, if he's not starting, and not covering flanker, then hedoesn't present a lot of options as a bench replacement.

It appears to be widely assumed that Alex Goode will be the back-up full back to Brown. I have mixed feelings about that. His inclusion might settle the fate of Billy Twelvetrees, since they are both playmakers and goalkickers. Having said that, if he isn't starting, then he he's not an especially flexible replacement. I'm torn between wanting him to play out of his skin, and looking a bit at sea to sow seeds of doubt in Lancaster's mind. It feels grubby wanting players to have an off day.

So, has the French 23 been named yet?

Why does Gwlad the WUM have to hijack every single England thread?

Wales have poor strength in depth - this has been shown time and time again.

E.g. Not many tier 1 teams would lose to Japan but Wales did.

As for this game - I want to see Road runner and Clark to repay the faith Lancaster has shown in both. I would like them to prove me wrong and have excellent matches.

Road runner seems a tad harsh beshocked and do we really need to judge playersa fter 1 game. Even if Clark gets motm its just the start of his England career, no ones useless or the messiah that quickly.

I like what May has done in his previous games...(we'll ignore that tackling incident as its been done to death.)

And if he is fired up and learning and showing it in training then all the better. He "can" be a match winner.

As for Clark. I again rate him on his performances for saints over the last few years. He is strong working backrower, very strong at the breakdown etc and has that aggressive side to him that I like and he has worked on to control. (Again we'll ignore that situation that has been done to death.)

I don't expect Clark to push for a WC starting spot as I honestly think Wood and Robshaw are inked in already. But hopefully he can really put in a top performance and show people what he can offer as opposed to the incident that has blinded many to him.

As for May well he could very well push for a starting spot.

I feel for Burgess standing outside of 'kicks it more than farrell' and 'only just kicks it a little less than wigglesworth'.

I suspect Cips will get 5/10 mins at the most whilist the ducking useless not at all goode will play the larger proportion kicking away to himself, at no great pace, through out.

The wings are gonna be chasing ball-ox all day and very little imagination will be discharged through the halfs which only reflects this dull selection.

The rfu have prioritised profit over performance and it will be the fans who are coughing up to be short changed.

The sooner this coaches reign ends the better and then hopfully the full good of the wealth of englisg rugby can begin to be invested into the game at large.

no 7 & 1/2 one game is all we'll get unfortunately.

As for May he's had more than one game - personally I have not been impressed. I thought he was one of the weakest performers in the 2014 6 nations and 2015 6 nations.

At least if he had one good game it would put him on the road to answering doubters like myself.

On any of these players with ? over their names they need to hit the ground running or face the chop - that's the reality.

England vs Australia is one game. England vs Wales is one game.

Geordiefalcon he's unproven at international level though and has not yet made the step up.

It's not Clark's chequered history that bothers me (he served his time), it's whether he has the potential to be more than just average and workmanlike.

To be honest I think Clark could do a job for England but England need someone more than that if they are to aspire to be in the best in the world.

I want to see something from Clark that suggests that he has that potential.

But Beshocked...theres only one way you see how players perform at international level....

To be fair to Clark he has played consistently well for a couple of seasons now and especially this season in top European competition. He deserves a run out.

I agree he is not an explosive, showboating player....but he has a crazily high tackle rate, hits the breakdown intelligently and aggressively, offers a lineout option but I see him as more aggressive than Wood..and more physical. You need players like that...like Robshaw and Wood...just Lancaster likes them too much and has flooded the whole back 5 with them....

Put him alongside Haskell in top explosive form and that would be a great flank combo.

1 game possibly before the wc but I stand by the comment you shouldnt judge someone so quickly. If you re just talking about a performance to get to this world cup fair enough but theres a few others as well including Goode.

May was 1 of the weaker performers in a strong 6n team performance not the end of the world and he had a good AI. Not as if the other contenders are knocking down the door.

May offers one thing no-one else does, contesting the re-starts. No matter how deep the kick, he always manages to get underneath it and disrupt the catchers, he rarely catches it himself.

Both May and Watson have weaknesses in tackling but May at least has that touch of magic about him occasionally. As has often been said, there is no substitute for pace, and May has more than just about anybody in England

no 7 & 1/2 of course there are other players. Goode has quite a few doubters too.

I have watched Clark for a few seasons too - I think he's a competent backrower but you need more than that.


Geordiefalcon the issue I have is that Clark was part of a backrow that had no answer to Racing Metro,Clermont and Sarries (when it mattered) this season.

can't really talk about Saints in the top European competition - they limped into the quarter finals in the easiest group then got destroyed by Clermont in the quarter finals.

Saints were well off the pace in the top European competition and have been for some time.

It was the AP where Saints did well for most of the season except they were beaten at home in the semis. IMO primarily because they were physically outmatched on the day (it was a close game but Saints lost the physicality battle). I would argue that it was Clark's opposite number on the day, Burger who did most of the damage too.

You might say to me - it's one or two games - well in arguably the biggest games this season he came up short when it mattered.

RWC games are effectively knock out matches - can't afford for lacklustre performances.


Well past it two bits of magic - a try vs NZ and an assist vs Italy - simply is not enough.

Trying to boil players performances doesnt really work like that though. Its more than 1 or 2 games its more than 1 or 2 incidents.

Geordiefalcon the issue I have is that Clark was part of a backrow that had no answer to Racing Metro,Clermont and Sarries (when it mattered) this season.

So your judging him as part of a three? How then do players get recognition under your selection process?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Geordiefalcon the issue I have is that Clark was part of a backrow that had no answer to Racing Metro,Clermont and Sarries (when it mattered) this season.

So your judging him as part of a three? How then do players get recognition under your selection process?

Parise would never have his reputation if he had to answer for his two colleagues as well.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I agree he is not an explosive, showboating player....but he has a crazily high tackle rate, hits the breakdown intelligently and aggressively, offers a lineout option but I see him as more aggressive than Wood..and more physical. You need players like that...like Robshaw and Wood...just Lancaster likes them too much and has flooded the whole back 5 with them....

Put him alongside Haskell in top explosive form and that would be a great flank combo.

The preferred back 5 is Launchbury, Lawes, Wood, Robshaw and Vunipola. That's hardly a back 5 flooded with grafters. And who would the alternative be?

The only serious options at this stage would be Haskell or Croft for Wood. Haskell has never managed to ally consistent performances to his undoubted physical attributes. Croft I would have liked to have seen. He looked like a world beater playing alongside Robshaw in 2012. He's been injured almost constantly since.

As with the backline, a lot of Lancaster's selection policy has been driven by availability as much as it has by choice of players. I also think that the likely first choice pack, with Launchbury, Youngs and Cole on breakdown duty as well as Robshaw and Wood, will look a lot more dynamic. He's not had all five of those players fit and available at the same time for nearly 2 years.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 of course there are other players. Goode has quite a few doubters too.

I have watched Clark for a few seasons too - I think he's a competent backrower but you need more than that.


Geordiefalcon the issue I have is that Clark was part of a backrow that had no answer to Racing Metro,Clermont and Sarries (when it mattered) this season.

can't really talk about Saints in the top European competition - they limped into the quarter finals in the easiest group then got destroyed by Clermont in the quarter finals.

Saints were well off the pace in the top European competition and have been for some time.

It was the AP where Saints did well for most of the season except they were beaten at home in the semis. IMO primarily because they were physically outmatched on the day (it was a close game but Saints lost the physicality battle). I would argue that it was Clark's opposite number on the day, Burger who did most of the damage too.

You might say to me - it's one or two games - well in arguably the biggest games this season he came up short when it mattered.

RWC games are effectively knock out matches - can't afford for lacklustre performances.


Well past it two bits of magic - a try vs NZ and an assist vs Italy - simply is not enough.

As usual BS, you ignore the point of the post i.e. May's ability to disrupt the oppositions catch from the kick off, allowing Ford or Farrell to kick deeper and gain more territory. Most wingers would not get near a kick deep into the 22, May does and causes either a knock on or disrupted poor ball which negates the oppositions ability to clear as far as they would otherwise. The game is far more territorial these days, the 10 -15m May makes each time could be vital.

Neither Watson or Nowell have this ablity, Watson just does not do it, Nowell doesn't have either the pace or the stature or both.

ONly Nowell and Roko can be considered sound in defence, all others seem to fall off tackles or make half hearted attempts to get in the way rather than tackle (Ashton comes to mind). May has dome more than you say, some very good cover tackling and as much in attack as any of the alternatives in the games he has played in.

Geordiefalcon both as an individual and as part of a team. I was countering your point about him playing well in the top European competition - well obviously he didn't when it mattered.



no 7 & 1/2 that's where you are wrong. There are turning points in matches. There are matches that are much bigger than others. There are moments in a match - like a knock on which leads to a try or a mix up in communication which leads to a try.

E.g. A lost lineout or two can really suck the momentum out of a team or a stolen lineout can turn into a really good attacking position.

It's why people have been on T.Youngs' case. Statistically he might not have missed many lineouts in a game but if they are big ones people notice them.

People focus on missed tackles which lead to tries - is it fair? Perhaps not but tough.

You seem under the deluded impression that every game is the same, every missed tackle is the same, that every mistake is the same. No it isn't.


Well past it any performing chimp should be able to chase a kick. I hope England do more work on the kick chase because it was woeful vs Ireland. Can't rely on Roadrunner to be the only kick chaser anyway. If Roadrunner is the only one capable of kick chase as you believe that's a failing on the kickers and coaches.

As much in attack? Running sideways is not attacking.

Any half decent 10 should be able to kick a ball for their team to chase.

Roko is sound in defence? Based on what? His numerous caps for England?

Lancaster obviously agreed that May was so good - that's why he dropped him in the 6 nations.

Poorfour don't know what your definition of grafters is because that looks to have plenty of them in it.


kingelderfield haven't head your viewpoint for a while. Welcome back.

Wigglesworth and Farrell's- their style of play is very useful. Having a good kicking game is obviously important. Can't just have people mindlessly kicking or England will end up like they did vs Ireland (no thought about where the ball was being kicked).

Pressure is important, you can force the opposition into errors, force the opposition to chase the game, attack from deep, build the score.

Of course a cutting edge is important but having a good structure and organisation cannot be ignored too.

Ireland beat England with the chase it all day tactic - it worked well. The "attacking" backline was clueless - of course I expect you'll blame that all on Goode despite him making more metres and beating 4 defenders.


Few players have proven themselves at international less than Cipriani - Cipriani's reputation is based on one good game at 10 for England a few years ago and a cameo against a beaten Italy - people have short memories - this was the player who has given away 3 chargedowns to the opposition. Cipriani has got a lot of proving to do.

BS, then we should get more performing chimps into the international squads, because very few sides can get a decent challenge in to a deep kick off. Could probably do withy a pair of Gorrilas in the front row to.

Lancaster obviously does think May is good, otherwise he wouldn't praise him. Just like Nowell, he has gone away and improved his game, you are basing your whole arguement on a couple of missed tackles and some diagonal running where he went for safety first, if he had gone for the line, not made it and been isolated/turned over you would be condeming him for that. He cannot win in your eyes.

If Wiggy and Farrell are half as good as you say at kicking, there are few people in this country that are as good at the chase game as May.

The most interesting thing for this game for me is to see how the hawk eye trial goes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11797604/Rugby-World-Cup-2015-Twickenham-breaks-new-ground-with-use-of-Hawk-Eye-during-England-v-France-clash.html

It will be used by TMOs and by medical staff analysing concussions. Interesting developments possibly.

beshocked wrote:

Ireland beat England with the chase it all day tactic - it worked well. The "attacking" backline was clueless - of course I expect you'll blame that all on Goode despite him making more metres and beating 4 defenders.

Side point, but how would that be any different to you dismissing performances by Clark or Burgess on the grounds that their team didn't win and winning is what's important? It's just as plausible surely to dismiss Goode's performance in that game on the basis that we were out-kicked and lost.

Incidentally, I think his stats that you cite may have been distorted by that one kamikaze run he did out of our 22 that ended up not too badly.

well past it If the kick needs to be shortened to allow a player more time then so be it. Plus the length of time a ball stays in the air can be increased. Adjustments can be made.

Lancaster praised May in training. That's slightly different. We won't know if May has truly improved his game till his proved it.

Being 5/10 for England isn't good enough in my eyes no. I don't think he's been good enough for England as of yet. I am happy to change my mind - it's not set in stone. As you said Nowell has improved his game - perhaps May has too.

Well hopefully Roadrunner will have a field day then and be able to prove himself.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon both as an individual and as part of a team. I was countering your point about him playing well in the top European competition - well obviously he didn't when it mattered.



no 7 & 1/2 that's where you are wrong. There are turning points in matches. There are matches that are much bigger than others.  There are moments in a match - like a knock on which leads to a try or a mix up in communication which leads to a try.

E.g. A lost lineout or two can really suck the momentum out of a team or a stolen lineout can turn into a really good attacking position.

It's why people have been on T.Youngs' case. Statistically he might not have missed many lineouts in a game but if they are big ones people notice them.

People focus on missed tackles which lead to tries - is it fair? Perhaps not but tough.

You seem under the deluded impression that every game is the same, every missed tackle is the same, that every mistake is the same. No it isn't.


Well past it any performing chimp should be able to chase a kick. I hope England do more work on the kick chase because it was woeful vs Ireland. Can't rely on Roadrunner to be the only kick chaser anyway. If Roadrunner is the only one capable of kick chase as you believe that's a failing on the kickers and coaches.

As much in attack? Running sideways is not attacking.

Any half decent 10 should be able to kick a ball for their team to chase.

Roko is sound in defence? Based on what? His numerous caps for England?

Lancaster obviously agreed that May was so good - that's why he dropped him in the 6 nations.

Poorfour don't know what your definition of grafters is because that looks to have plenty of them in it.


kingelderfield haven't head your viewpoint for a while. Welcome back.

Wigglesworth and Farrell's- their style of play is very useful. Having a good kicking game is obviously important. Can't just have people mindlessly kicking or England will end up like they did vs Ireland (no thought about where the ball was being kicked).

Pressure is important, you can force the opposition into errors, force the opposition to chase the game, attack from deep, build the score.

Of course a cutting edge is important but having a good structure and organisation cannot be ignored too.

Ireland beat England with the chase it all day tactic - it worked well. The "attacking" backline was clueless - of course I expect you'll blame that all on Goode despite him making more metres and beating 4 defenders.


Few players have proven themselves at international less than Cipriani - Cipriani's reputation is based on one good game at 10 for England a few years ago and a cameo against a beaten Italy - people have short memories - this was the player who has given away 3 chargedowns to the opposition. Cipriani has got a lot of proving to do.

Thats just silly else you d be able to judge a players performance on a highlights reel. Individuals can do something brilliant or awful and nothing could come from either action. Add those moments decisions etc together over 80 min etc to judge. You seem unwilling to judge on anything but collective performance.

GunsGerms wrote:The most interesting thing for this game for me is to see how the hawk eye trial goes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11797604/Rugby-World-Cup-2015-Twickenham-breaks-new-ground-with-use-of-Hawk-Eye-during-England-v-France-clash.html

It will be used by TMOs and by medical staff analysing concussions. Interesting developments possibly.

Very good news as we see in football Mourinho having hissy fits over his dr not knowing he s told his players to feign injury.

Why silly nicknames? Its like you cant bear someone has come into the team and played better than Ashton. Same with Clark over Itoje and will no doubt be a similar story if any others are chosen over Sarries players. This is eEngland not your club try to remember they are all your players.

thomh wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Ireland beat England with the chase it all day tactic - it worked well. The "attacking" backline was clueless - of course I expect you'll blame that all on Goode despite him making more metres and beating 4 defenders.

Side point, but how would that be any different to you dismissing performances by Clark or Burgess on the grounds that their team didn't win and winning is what's important? It's just as plausible surely to dismiss Goode's performance in that game on the basis that we were out-kicked and lost.

Incidentally, I think his stats that you cite may have been distorted by that one kamikaze run he did out of our 22 that ended up not too badly.

thomh

Winning is important then again it isn't, depends on the player and performance.

Clark and Burgess have no international experience.

Clark played well in the AP but didn't vs Clermont,Racing Metro and Sarries (Semi final).

Goode is a different situation then again he's not - unlike Clark and Burgess he's got international experience in rugby union. Though like them he's still got things to prove.

Just as I question May there are those who question Goode. Even I acknowledge Goode's weaknesses (but unlike others I mention his positives too).

All 3 players - Clark,Burgess and Goode are fighting for a spot in the 31.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why silly nicknames? Its like you cant bear someone has come into the team and played better than Ashton. Same with Clark over Itoje and will no doubt be a similar story if any others are chosen over Sarries players. This is eEngland not your club try to remember they are all your players.

I dunno - I like Roadrunner for May

no 7 & 1/2 the problem is that May hasn't been better than Ashton. That's the issue.

I would love it if May played brilliantly but I don't think he's been good enough for England. You could argue neither has Ashton - Ashton has in the past shown it though.

Of course I want England to win every game irrelevant of whether they are Sarries or not.

My criticism of Nowell has gone because he's playing well this year. If a player is playing well I will praise them, if they are not playing well I will criticise them/ Is that fair? Perhaps not in your eyes.

Ford took Farrell's spot and has deservedly kept it. No player should be above criticism though.

I have panned Farrell for his performances in the last year - bar this season's semi and final.

As for Clark vs Itoje - Itoje was part of a backrow that beat physically beat the Saints one, did a lot better against the Clermont backrow than the Saints one did - does it make Itoje better? Perhaps not but I have made it clear what I think.

As for Clark - I think he's a competent player but don't think he's got the same potential as Itoje IMO.

I hope Clark plays well though.

Happy to acknowledge when someone is in better form. You ignore that of course.

I have not asked for Goode to be first choice instead of Brown.

Do you know why I haven't been asking for Marler to be dropped and Mako starting? It's because Marler has done well.

I am not demanding that the likes of Wigglesworth,Farrell,George or Kruis start against Fiji.