England v France, 15 August

First topic message reminder :

  
ENGLAND v FRANCE
15 August 2015
KO: 20:00 local
Twickenham, London

Live on telly

Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
Assistant Referees: George Clancy (Ireland) & Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Television match official: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

99 Played 99
54 Won 38
7 Drawn 7
38 Lost 54
1,553 Points 1,230

B. Recent Form

21 March 2015
Twickenham, London
55 – 35 to England

1 February 2014
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
26 – 24 to France

23 February 2013
Twickenham, London
23 – 13 to England

11 March 2012
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
22 – 24 to England

8 October 2011
Eden Park, Auckland, New Zealand
19 – 12 to France

C. Teams

ENGLAND

Alex Goode; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Sam Burgess, Jonny May; Owen Farrell, Richard Wigglesworth; Mako Vunipola, Rob Webber, Kieran Brookes, George Kruis, Geoff Parling, Tom Wood, Calum Clark, Ben Morgan

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Alex Corbisiero, David Wilson, Dave Attwood, James Haskell, Danny Care, Danny Cipriani, Billy Twelvetrees

FRANCE

Scott Spedding; Sofiane Guitoune, Remi Lamerat, Alexandre Dumoulin, Brice Dulin; Francois Trinh-Duc, Morgan Parra; Louis Picamoles, Fulgence Ouedraogo, Yannick Nyanga; Yoann Maestri, Alexandre Flanquart; Nicolas Mas, Dimitri Szarzewski, Vincent Debaty

Replacements: Guilhem Guirado, Xavier Chiocci, Uini Atonio, Sebastien Vahaamahina, Loann Goujon, Rory Kockott, Remi Tales, Gael Fickou

Just ignore the fly hack on Care then eh ref?

The TMO certainly thought he'd made the wrong call.

Oh come on Kockout was clearly trying to kick the ball into touch. No intention to trip there.

Whatva Poopie ref this is

no. foul play is foul play. irrespective when it occurs. might not be a penalty as the ball was already in touch. but clearly should have been yellow. ref is an idiot.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Oh come on Kockout was clearly trying to kick the ball into touch. No intention to trip there.

go troll somewhere else.

yappysnap wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:The gap quality of these games compared to this morning;s is canyon-wide.

What a silly comment.

Slightly different sort of game and quality of teams...

I think it's the same game - rugby union.

And yes I was commenting on the quality of the game.

Lol, Leinster...

Since when did trying mean anything. So we shouldn't penalise a player for a tip tackle because the player tried to tackle normally

There are a few player playing themselves into contention. And plenty who are not good enough. Including the ref of course.

ref said the touch meant he didnt even have to look at the foul play. ignoring tmo and tj twice. idiot. hes plain wrong. citing commisioner will clear it up.

like a punch thrown after the ball is in touch should be ignored? its basic stuff.

quinsforever wrote:ref said the touch meant he didnt even have to look at the foul play. ignoring tmo and tj twice. idiot. hes plain wrong. citing commisioner will clear it up.

Agreed. He will.

nathan wrote:Lol, Leinster...

Since when did trying mean anything. So we shouldn't penalise a player for a tip tackle because the player tried to tackle normally

POC once kicked Dave Karney in the head when trying to hack the ball away and nothing happened to him (wasn't even given as a penalty). It's a grey area for sure and is something that needs to be cleared up.

anyway. has been an interesting game. ref decisions dont matter in warmups. lets hope he doesnt ruin it for anyone when it matters though.

Louis Picamoles has been the star of the game for me. The only player for France who looks like he knows what he is doing. A huge ball carrier, with silky handling skills and great awareness. An absolute dream at number eight. One of my favourite players over the past few years.

Zzzzz

Is it over?

Not as bad as the Irl/Scot game but close.

Showed for me there's a lot of back options but better hope there's no injuries among the forwards.

burgess has to be in. to be so solid with so much media attention nonstop, that alone should mean he should be in. takes attention away from everyone else, in a good way.

This ref is the Frak Poopie I have seen. Blatant trip aaaaaaaand... Nothing.

What an oxygen theif

agree re picamoles. just awesome.

Some weird decisions from the ref, when Burgess got carded Parra clearly took the tap in front of the mark, the ridiculous yellow card on Clarke and ignoring the fly hack on Care. Didn't seem to have a clue what was going on in the scrum either.

England's breakdown control was poor, against a better team than France we would be punished. Forwards got dominated in general, which is quite worrying.

However, this criticism ignores the personnel England were employing in the pack. One first choice player against a strong and gnarled French pack, you'd expect the French to be on top.

The England backs were clinical (I know what the hell?), although I'm worried that Burgess has played himself into the squad as a centre. He seemed to me to play a blindside role in the back line, this is because... he is a FLANKER!

What the hell is English rugby teaching its hookers? It certainly isn't how to be a hooker. A hooker who can't hit his man is as good as a one playing for the opposition.

Haskell, May, Watson & Goode were excellent. The pack were mostly girls.

Agreed, if there was anybody else both Webber and LCD would have played themselves out of contention.  Too early for LCD and too little too late from Webber.

cmon barney. thats mostly france's first choice pack. i thought we did okay. considering.

What a shocking referee.

Anyway, England seemed to be a bit of a mess, lacking any cohesion. Watson has probably nailed his spot. Burgess and Slade both decent, but not spectacular. Goode finally churned out something halfway decent.

All a bit 'meh' to be honest.

Well at least it was a win for England. But France was surely getting the better of England towards the end of the game. Still a win is a win, no matter what the score line is.

i do think England have some defence issues. Luke cowan dickie maybe not his best game he as played, but seeing that it was ihis first for the senior England squad but he has to improve on his line out throwing.

I do suppose that it will be a different team that plays next week in Paris.If it is lets hope the result is the same(a win for England) But with how close this game was. the England team will have to play better than today.

Cumbrian wrote:Agreed, if there was anybody else both Webber and LCD would have played themselves out of contention.  Too early for LCD and too little too late from Webber.

Lancaster didn't rule out selecting Hartley as cover in the event of injury. Will be fascinating to see what he does if Youngs gets injured. I see Woodward is suggesting Youngs be rested to make sure he stays fit for the cup.

Looked pretty bad for Brookes which is a shame as he was looking good. Not too sure I agreed with a few of the refs/linesmens calls including the scrums but it has to be a big positive we actually saw that game out given the pressure. Slade took a huge leap forward and C-D a big 1 back. Burgess was decent but put him at 6 where hes involved a whole lot more!

Haskell won that game for England. A very important shift for the team and for him personally.

Morgan looked a bit off the pace but in better shape than I expected.

Slade, the hit on Parra aside, looked very promising.

Hooker starting to look like a problem. Jamie George has a big chance.

Scrappy stuff from England, but they did enough and were excellent in patches. Need to tighten up the pack, backline suddenly looks to have options all over.

burgess did enough for me. he's a natural leader. and we are very short on natural leaders with experience. slade was great too. but burgess performed, with the camera on him 80% of the time when the ball wasnt in play. that will be big come rwc i think.

Despite the result i do think England played well. will this game in the bag. England will deffo have to step up and play a lot better than today,. France gave us (England)  real scare tonight. The ave to cut down on their mistakes.

Johny May Antony Whatson are two very good players. But who are the replacemenats?

I do believe Marlon Yarde, and Christian Wade, Chris Ashton. have all returned to thier clubs. so who will be the replacements if Whatson and May are injured.  Who takes over?

Nowell, May and Watson are the wings.

Nowell will likely start next week.

One telling point came in the post match interview. Asked why he didn't get Farrell to kick for goal when we won a scrum penalty near the end, Tom Wood said it wasn't a gimme; he wanted to keep the pressure on, and a penalty would only have increased the lead to seven points anyway.

Of course, it would have given England an eight point lead, and sealed the match.

It's a small point, but I think that shows the folly of not giving Wood more captaincy opportunities at Test level. Like Robshaw, he runs himself into the ground, so isn't always thinking as clearly at the back end of a match. This one didn't cost us but I worry that similar muddled thinking at the tournament will hurt us.

Margin_Walker wrote:Nowell, May and Watson are the wings.

Nowell will likely start next week.

Is there no one else? Surely there should be more than 3 wingers in squad/team?

majesticimperialman wrote:

Margin_Walker wrote:Nowell, May and Watson are the wings.

Nowell will likely start next week.

Is there no one else? Surely there should be more than 3 wingers in squad/team?

Nope, will be 5 back three players in the squad of 31, which is probably about right. Can always call someone up if there is an injury

Players definitely in the squad based on their performance today:

Mako Vunipola
Ben Morgan
Tom Wood
Richard Wigglesworth
Owen Farrell
Johnny May
Anthony Watson
James Haskell
Alex Goode
Rob Webber (2nd choice anyway and his game was not too bad given his recent form).
Geoff Parling
Davey Wilson

Those unlikely to go:

Danny Cipriani
Callum Clark
Kieran Brookes (based on what looks like a broken wrist)
Dave Attwood (was anonymous in this game when he came on)

Am unsure on:

Henry Slade (good game, one silly moment, 2 moments of handling magic. I really like him, but is there room for him in this squad?)
Sam Burgess (BIG hits, constant nuisance, good leader, great hands)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (can't hit a barn door at 3 paces - George may be a better bet for now)
Alex Corbisiero (seems suspect and a little off-form)
George Kruis (trying too hard?)
Danny Care (not his usual sparky self)
Billy Twelvetrees (just doesn't seem good enough right now)

Those are my thoughts anyway.

Burgess had an excellent game at 6 I thought. Made his tackles, trucked the ball up occasionally and only struggled when facing a fleet footed guy.

Oh wait he was a centre you say? With Barritt to get his go next week, can we really take two flankers as centres in the squad?

Sarcasm aside:

LCD played his way out of the squad.
Kruis edged ahead of Attwood.
Clark played pretty well and was a tad unlucky to be binned.
Good cameo from Haskell.

Farrell looked decent while Wiggy was on, but once Care came on (who struggled) went quiet.
Debutant centres did pretty well, but guys opposite were poor.
Watson showed real class as a finisher - but could up his work rate and go looking for the ball more maybe.
May was excellent.
Goode had a really effective game.
Through no fault of his own as he was put at FB, Cipriani probably joined LCD in playing his way out of the squad.

The game aside for a moment did the RFU get their ticketing prices wrong for the game only 63000 or so there, heard tickets were very expensive?

Onto the game and obviously from a neutrals POV:

England started really well and took their chances in 1st half, liked the look of Watson in the 6 Nations and he continues to look class.

Pack struggled overall, thought Morgan was quiet but then again first game back after injury etc.

Burgess showed up better than I expected though still think it would be a big risk to take him but am sure he will make the grade after another season or so with Bath.

Thought your discipline was poor and whilst a win is a win to score 3 tries to 1 and only win by 5 will be a worry.

On the non yellow card..(incidentally the second trip by a French player).

The ref(feel bad for all the real refs having to deal with this Walt!) had not blown for a line out so therefore the ball was still in play and therefore was most definitely illegal and should of been correctly called.

Also the more than blatant ignoring of French knockons was farcical

I went into the game wanting to be impressed by Slade and not by Burgess (the way he's been overhyped has annoyed me). Overall I think they both put in good performances each having a moment of stupidity although Slade's was probably more deserving of a card than Burgess'. I think describing the game as a shoot out between the two was misleading though. I don't think you could go to the WC with Barritt, Joseph, Burrell and Burgess as your centres, you need two boshers and two more skillful players. Based on today I think Slade is ahead of Twelvetrees and if Burgess is to go as a centre it would have to be instead of Burrell. I can see why he's the kind of player you'd want in and around the squad though even if I felt he was often too upright both carrying and tackling.

It'shame he's not had long enough in Union to become a proficient lineout forward as he'd look much better at 6 and would add a real extra dimension to the England backrow. Instead of two workhorses in the Woodshaw role with a carrier at 8 you could have a carrier (BV), a bruising tackler (Burgess, who also provides a good carrying option) and a workhorse (Robshaw). As it is I'm not sure he'll overtake Burrell and I think taking three big centres would leave the squad light on creative players.

bedfordwelsh wrote:The game aside for a moment did the RFU get their ticketing prices wrong for the game only 63000 or so there, heard tickets were very expensive?

Onto the game and obviously from a neutrals POV:

England started really well and took their chances in 1st half, liked the look of Watson in the 6 Nations and he continues to look class.

Pack struggled overall, thought Morgan was quiet but then again first game back after injury etc.

Burgess showed up better than I expected though still think it would be a big risk to take him but am sure he will make the grade after another season or so with Bath.

Thought your discipline was poor and whilst a win is a win to score 3 tries to 1 and only win by 5 will be a worry.

The discipline is hard to judge when we had this ref, we were pinged for so many random and legal things was farcical

Foul and dangerous play can and should be penalised whenever it is spotted - even if the ball is dead. I was very disappointed that the ref refused to listen to the TMO on that one - can only assume he heard "do you want to check the try" and not "do you want to check foul play."

Considering everything England got wrong, and the relative experience of the French squad, that was actually a pretty comfortable win. England lost the equivalent fixture in 2003 by 1 point, albeit away from home.

Knackeredknees wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:The game aside for a moment did the RFU get their ticketing prices wrong for the game only 63000 or so there, heard tickets were very expensive?

Onto the game and obviously from a neutrals POV:

England started really well and took their chances in 1st half, liked the look of Watson in the 6 Nations and he continues to look class.

Pack struggled overall, thought Morgan was quiet but then again first game back after injury etc.

Burgess showed up better than I expected though still think it would be a big risk to take him but am sure he will make the grade after another season or so with Bath.

Thought your discipline was poor and whilst a win is a win to score 3 tries to 1 and only win by 5 will be a worry.

The discipline is hard to judge when we had this ref, we were pinged for so many random and legal things was farcical

That's as maybe and we can all point to refs but players have to learn to adapt to a ref as well.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Knackeredknees wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:The game aside for a moment did the RFU get their ticketing prices wrong for the game only 63000 or so there, heard tickets were very expensive?

Onto the game and obviously from a neutrals POV:

England started really well and took their chances in 1st half, liked the look of Watson in the 6 Nations and he continues to look class.

Pack struggled overall, thought Morgan was quiet but then again first game back after injury etc.

Burgess showed up better than I expected though still think it would be a big risk to take him but am sure he will make the grade after another season or so with Bath.

Thought your discipline was poor and whilst a win is a win to score 3 tries to 1 and only win by 5 will be a worry.

The discipline is hard to judge when we had this ref, we were pinged for so many random and legal things was farcical

That's as maybe and we can all point to refs but players have to learn to adapt to a ref as well.

Think it's hard to adapt when the ref doesn't even know what he's doing.

And if illegal stuff cannot be punished if the ball is dead.........first line out can bv backhand parra out the ground for some blatant play acting

Aye, reckon Parra is now the bookies favourites for a César

Henry Slade: is good enough so should be in

Sam Burgess: was an excellent flanker today but only a fairly average centre, so is out. One of Stewie’s numerous brain farts - how can you even consider Clark ahead on him?

Luke Cowan-Dickie: will lose England any and every game he starts as hooker, nearly did it today even as a cameo (my advice to him, get a haircut and find a position you can actually play) – out.

Alex Corbisiero: probably had his day I’m afraid - out.

George Kruis: was pretty decent I thought – a real possibility.

Danny Care: was average today but has class- in.

Billy Twelvetrees: started his England career as barely average, has gone downhill ever since – out.

Clark: made a mark, shame it was a yellow one – cheerio.

Goode, May, Watson, Haskell – no brainers (sorry Haskell, I mean that in a good way).

The ref played himself out of contention. Still was better than LCD though.

Did I mention LCD was useless?

Hmm. Didn't see the game and just followed it on the beeb but seems to be some one sided comments on discipline (just going on the feed from aunty- French players taken out and no yellow card etc). Given it was a "friendly" test match sounds like the French could cause problems thus wc. Not so sure about the hosts (depends on the ref by the sound of it)

Usually wisest not to try and make assumptions on something you did not see.

I think given the French side was fairly close to their 1st XV and ours was far more a 2nd XV I think we did well in the first half. 2nd half wasn't great though, and the discipline was a bit rubbish. Referee wasn't great either. Blatant pulling down for the Penalty against Brookes.

Lacey was on other side for penalty against Brookes, so it was the TJs call.

Always hard to tell with PSa on who is first choice - but from 1-10 perhaps as many as 8 were first choice players. The outside backs were perhaps more second string.

the England lineup was predominantly 2nd/3rd choice players.