England v France, 15 August

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ENGLAND v FRANCE
15 August 2015
KO: 20:00 local
Twickenham, London

Live on telly

Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)
Assistant Referees: George Clancy (Ireland) & Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Television match official: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

99 Played 99
54 Won 38
7 Drawn 7
38 Lost 54
1,553 Points 1,230

B. Recent Form

21 March 2015
Twickenham, London
55 – 35 to England

1 February 2014
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
26 – 24 to France

23 February 2013
Twickenham, London
23 – 13 to England

11 March 2012
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
22 – 24 to England

8 October 2011
Eden Park, Auckland, New Zealand
19 – 12 to France

C. Teams

ENGLAND

Alex Goode; Anthony Watson, Henry Slade, Sam Burgess, Jonny May; Owen Farrell, Richard Wigglesworth; Mako Vunipola, Rob Webber, Kieran Brookes, George Kruis, Geoff Parling, Tom Wood, Calum Clark, Ben Morgan

Replacements: Luke Cowan-Dickie, Alex Corbisiero, David Wilson, Dave Attwood, James Haskell, Danny Care, Danny Cipriani, Billy Twelvetrees

FRANCE

Scott Spedding; Sofiane Guitoune, Remi Lamerat, Alexandre Dumoulin, Brice Dulin; Francois Trinh-Duc, Morgan Parra; Louis Picamoles, Fulgence Ouedraogo, Yannick Nyanga; Yoann Maestri, Alexandre Flanquart; Nicolas Mas, Dimitri Szarzewski, Vincent Debaty

Replacements: Guilhem Guirado, Xavier Chiocci, Uini Atonio, Sebastien Vahaamahina, Loann Goujon, Rory Kockott, Remi Tales, Gael Fickou

kingelderfield wrote:The sooner this coaches reign ends the better and then hopfully the full good of the wealth of englisg rugby can begin to be invested into the game at large.

I don't agree with you but I do have moments like that. If we do go down ignominiously at this World Cup, then the knives will be out. Watching the Ashes fall-out, it's instructive how quickly supporters can turn against a team (Australia) but also how players can thrive if encouraged to "succeed" rather than "not fail" (England).

I have some regrets about Lancaster taking over from Martin Johnson. We've lost Chris Ashton, who I think could have been an English Bryan Habana - always in the right place to score a try. We also lost Delon Armitage, who has a range of skills any World Cup squad requires.

Johnson couldn't have done much about injuries, bit I suspect Foden would always have been selected if available, in the same way Morgan probably makes Lancaster's squad today.

That's three players who could have added to squad experience, and squad flexibility. (I also slightly miss Flood as a squad player because he can play inside centre and kick goals at a World Cup.)

But who knows? I didn't know Owen Farrell would so so well in his first Tests, Then he pretty much built foundations for the 2012 victory over NZ through scoreboard pressure. And then I started to think he wasn't being flash enough, as if I have a clue what I want from him.

If England are going to win, I don't think we will do so by being "collectively good" over a series of matches. I think we'll need to have stand out performers, and routines burned into our DNA. I suppose that's what I want to see tomorrow.

May has been better than Ashton though. Clark doesnt have anywhere near the potential of a Itoje or a Clifford but he s currently better. Now you could argue to play the long game for risk in the short term for long term game but you were massively critical of less of a risk when Nowell got a chance, I dont mind reasoned criticism but its mainly directed at anyone in comp with a Saracens player, and cherry picking small moments rather judge a full performance.

no 7 & 1/2 disagree completely - If May was better than Ashton, I would hold up my hands and say you know what - fair enough but he isn't.

Sarries have a lot of players vying for England spots inevitably they are going to be in competition with other players.

I was critical of Nowell's selection because the gamble failed- arguably costing a GS. Was the gamble worth it? No I don't think it was. If Lancaster's England go onto win a GS then it will ease some of the pressure.

You don't understand do you?

Picking someone against France away in the first 6 nations game is not the same as starting a new cap in a RWC warm up game.

If England lose to France in a warm up game- so what as long as they beat Wales and Australia.

This game is more about performance than result. It's about tuning things - trying out players. Hopefully players will put in some good performances.


If you don't understand the difference between a warm up game and a 6 nations game I can't help you.

It is less of a risk playing someone like Itoje,Burgess,Slade,Clifford etc in a warm up game at home than throwing them in their first cap against France away in the 6 nations.

Don't need to be a rocket scientist to realise that.

But for Lancaster's England Ashton has been a failure. He hasn't been a threat in attack and has been considerably worse in defense. Maybe he hasn't been used as well as he could be, or was under Johnston, but he hasn't produced anything when he had a chance. (And yes that does depend on what happens inside of him, but still)

Because May is so fast it forces the opposition to think about him and how to counter him. He can potentially score from anywhere, and yes as has been pointed out he makes our kicking game look a lot better.

BS is not to be moved, he is a rock in support of the players he likes.

Unfortunately he has recently become an island, separated from the main stream of thinking.


Sometimes regrettably he has become the Scilly Isles rather than the mainland.

Poorfour wrote:Your definition of 4th string is clearly different from mine.  I would define first string as the best player in each position,  second string as the next best etc. 4th string players have three better players ahead of them. 3 x 15 = 45. So by definition in a squad of 46 there's room for 15 3rd string and at most 1 4th string. The other 30 are your 1st and 2nd string.

You've listed 9 "4th string" players and 12 3rd string. To be in that position implies you've got 3 3rd string and therefore 5 1st and 2nd string players out injured.

If that really is the case,  then I feel very sorry for Wales and their fans but it would seem to support my view that Gatland over trains his squads if he has a significant number of injuries after a summer off.

By the way,  I'm not denying Ireland's relative strength in depth; I'm just responding to Gwlad's assertion that Wales didn't field a second string squad. If the bottom 23 of a squad of 46 aren't actually a second string, then you're in a pretty dire situation.

But it wasn't really a second string. You claimed it was, and he said it was hardly a second string. Here is the squad after its recent cull http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/33737995 - with more to come. Our definition of fourth string is the same. I'm struggling to see where the confusion is coming from? Smith clearly has 3 LH props in front of him (James, Evans Jenkins), Hibbard clearly has 3 hookers in front of him (Baldwin, Owens, Dacey), Andrews clearly, in most peoples eyes, has 3 TH props in front of him (Lee, Francis, Jarvis). Each of Phillips and Hook have 3 players ahead of them. So right now that's 5 when you said it was 1, and so far this isn't including positions with a lot of subjectivity hanging over them.

As for the locks, we clearly have a first and second choice pairing. Personally I'm not sure where Day fits in, if he even makes the final cut. Ian Evans is also probably still capable of being around the squad. We're also unsure where Moriarty fits in, as he covers 6 and 8, and no doubt did a much better job than Baker did last weekend. So perhaps these are third string players (or not as back-row is the most subjective with players able to cover various positions). M.Morgan is listed as a fly-half, but it's doubtful he will feature there for Wales. He's more like utility cover, but is certainly not a first team player and has just 2 caps. Amos can play wing and is perhaps capable of making the matchday squad, but at 15 is probably considered third choice. As for injuries, I doubt a raft of previous ACL and achilles' injuries can be attributed to the Wales RWC training. Maybe Liam Williams' injury can though.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Mikey Dragon - So Tyler Morgan is 2nd string & he started against Ireland. Presumably North would start on the wing & then possibly have to move to centre & it's looking a bit bare & that's assuming Liam is fit?

You've watched Barritt play midfield so hopefully you're more understanding. I claimed Scott Williams was a first team player and I perhaps should have made myself more clear. In Gatland's view he is behind Roberts and Davies, yet he is frequently in the match day squad. If Roberts becomes cropped, Williams steps in to 12. If Davies becomes Cropped, Williams steps into 13 (which has now happened). Can he be seen as second choice 12 and 13? He can't play both positions at once. But if you do think of it like that then it pushes guys like Tyler Morgan further away (who only plays 13 and wing). There's the more experienced Cory Allen too, who predominantly plays 13 (has rarely featured at 12 as far as I know). Given Morgan started on the weekend, and that Allen spends a lot of his career injured, Tyler should be the one to step in. There's the other option of moving North to centre before all these extra 13s, and if North is on top form that is the option Gatland will go for - Amos or Cuthbert to then start on the wing. It is a bit thread bare at 12 I'll give you that.

This is off topic but should have cleared some things up (?). Gwlad is fixated with England rugby threads, and it seems an unhealthy fixation. It's best to ignore him rather than respond with Wales-jibes.

Could any Bath supporters briefly touch upon Dom Day (it can be done via PM if you would rather it not be discussed on this thread). Has he ever played in the back-row for Bath? It would help his international cause if so. He was a bit of a softie at Scarlets, but seems to have worked his way up with Bath and I think it was mentioned that he started every game for them in the premiership? IMO, I thought he did well on his international debut.

Because I still cant see a list of who is starting for France I found this

France: Scott Spedding; Sofiane Guitoune, Remi Lamerat, Alexandre Dumoulin, Brice Dulin; Francois Trinh-Duc, Morgan Parra; Vincent Debaty, Dimitri Szarzewski (Capt.), Nicolas Mas; Yoann Maestri, Alexandre Flanquart; Yannick Nyanga, Fulgence Ouedraogo, Louis Picamoles.

Replacements: Guilhem Guirado, Xavier Chiocci, Uni Atonio, Sebastien Vahaamahina, Loann Goujon, Rory Kockott, Remi Tales, Gael Fickou

Some really good players there, but I can't see past an England win.

lostinwales wrote:France: Scott Spedding; Sofiane Guitoune, Remi Lamerat, Alexandre Dumoulin, Brice Dulin; Francois Trinh-Duc, Morgan Parra; Vincent Debaty, Dimitri Szarzewski (Capt.), Nicolas Mas; Yoann Maestri, Alexandre Flanquart; Yannick Nyanga, Fulgence Ouedraogo, Louis Picamoles.

Replacements: Guilhem Guirado, Xavier Chiocci, Uni Atonio, Sebastien Vahaamahina, Loann Goujon, Rory Kockott, Remi Tales, Gael Fickou

That's a good pack to test the forwards we have on show.

Mako vs Mas will be an excellent challenge to test of how far his scrummaging has come on.

That France back row will certainly test how fit Morgan is, as well as being a stern test for Wood and Clark.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 disagree completely - If May was better than Ashton, I would hold up my hands and say you know what - fair enough but he isn't.

Sarries have a lot of players vying for England spots inevitably they are going to be in competition with other players.

I was critical of Nowell's selection because the gamble failed- arguably costing a GS. Was the gamble worth it? No I don't think it was. If Lancaster's England go onto win a GS then it will ease some of the pressure.

You don't understand do you?

Picking someone against France away in the first 6 nations game is not the same as starting a new cap in a RWC warm up game.

If England lose to France in a warm up game- so what as long as they beat Wales and Australia.

This game is more about performance than result. It's about tuning things - trying out players. Hopefully players will put in some good performances.


If you don't understand the difference between a warm up game and a 6 nations game I can't help you.

It is less of a risk playing someone like Itoje,Burgess,Slade,Clifford etc in a warm up game at home than throwing them in their first cap against France away in the 6 nations.

Don't need to be a rocket scientist to realise that.

But May has performed better than Ashton recently. No real question about that. You dont seem to understand that Nowell didnt cost a grand slam.

The risk now is a new cap impresses and fails as players ajust to him. Always risk some would say dont risk the wc.

And so for 1 game only you ll judge players on their performance rather than look at the result then judge? we re in for a treat. Not saying you re expecting defeat and want to biuld any players up.

king_carlos wrote:

lostinwales wrote:France: Scott Spedding; Sofiane Guitoune, Remi Lamerat, Alexandre Dumoulin, Brice Dulin; Francois Trinh-Duc, Morgan Parra; Vincent Debaty, Dimitri Szarzewski (Capt.), Nicolas Mas; Yoann Maestri, Alexandre Flanquart; Yannick Nyanga, Fulgence Ouedraogo, Louis Picamoles.

Replacements: Guilhem Guirado, Xavier Chiocci, Uni Atonio, Sebastien Vahaamahina, Loann Goujon, Rory Kockott, Remi Tales, Gael Fickou

That's a good pack to test the forwards we have on show.

Mako vs Mas will be an excellent challenge to test of how far his scrummaging has come on.

That France back row will certainly test how fit Morgan is, as well as being a stern test for Wood and Clark.

I think our flankers are a bit too lightweight. One of them will not go to the WC anyway. The odd selection is Dulin on the wing where he never played since his Agen years... PSA seems to think that having more than one FB is a good idea. Not sure he looked at how it worked out for other teams! Excited to see TD back at 10 but with both teams likely to be a bit rusty I am not sure what to expect.

For me success today would be:

A strong set piece - particularly Webber's throwing and Vunipola's scrummaging.
Morgan coming through 50 minutes on the pace with confidence and some good carries
A good attacking shape with enough moments of class from Burgess and Slade to push the centre discussion on until after next week's game
Similarly for Clark, big enough stats to put the pressure on Haskell next week, even if in practice I think Haskell will go.
A 30-point winning margin

Not too much to ask surely?

I am looking for to a strong game today. I would like to see players that have been injured returning to some kind of form.

It will be nice to see non caped players making their first game. I just hope it will be an interesting game, ball in hand, rather than kicking the hell out of it.

Of course it will depend on the French team. Will they turn up and play? or will they be no show in turns of performance? I see Trinduc is in the side so i don't think there will be much kicking the ball away unless he as too that is.

whocares wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

lostinwales wrote:France: Scott Spedding; Sofiane Guitoune, Remi Lamerat, Alexandre Dumoulin, Brice Dulin; Francois Trinh-Duc, Morgan Parra; Vincent Debaty, Dimitri Szarzewski (Capt.), Nicolas Mas; Yoann Maestri, Alexandre Flanquart; Yannick Nyanga, Fulgence Ouedraogo, Louis Picamoles.

Replacements: Guilhem Guirado, Xavier Chiocci, Uni Atonio, Sebastien Vahaamahina, Loann Goujon, Rory Kockott, Remi Tales, Gael Fickou

That's a good pack to test the forwards we have on show.

Mako vs Mas will be an excellent challenge to test of how far his scrummaging has come on.

That France back row will certainly test how fit Morgan is, as well as being a stern test for Wood and Clark.

I think our flankers are a bit too lightweight. One of them will not go to the WC anyway. The odd selection is Dulin on the wing where he never played since his Agen years... PSA seems to think that having more than one FB is a good idea. Not sure he looked at how it worked out for other teams! Excited to see TD back at 10 but with both teams likely to be a bit rusty I am not sure what to expect.

Wood and Clark aren't monsters on the flank either so it should be quite evenly matched.

I've always rated Parra and Trinh-Duc highly so am pleased to see them starting together. It should offer a good challenge to Wigglesworth and Farrell as both half back pairings know each other well and build their game around playing in the right areas of the field.

Shame that the scumbag Calum Clark gets to play at the highest level. Other than that I'm looking forward to this.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Shame that the scumbag Calum Clark gets to play at the highest level. Other than that I'm looking forward to this.

I seriously wanted him banned from the game but that said, I guess everybody deserves a second chance for moments of madness and as far as I am aware, he has really worked hard, kept his nose clean and is deserved of his position.

Are France just continuing on from the 6N?They seem to be playing tip rugby with all the offloads so far.Could be a high scoring game if this continues.

Lovely finish from Watson, nice work Watson

England making the French defense look stupid,this is pleasing from an Irish point of view.

Ireland's group is looking very easy right now.

hi everyone. been away for a while.

12, 13 and 14 for england shining so far. promising given this is a second string backline.

parra. that was huget-esque.

Slade a bit fortunate not to see yellow.

Burgess a bit unfortunate perhaps.

Both could justifiably have been sin binned but neither were horrendeous either.

It was very silly from Burgess in that area of the field.

Burgess still looks like a man who is learning the game.

At times he has seemed to be following the ball and getting out of position in defence. Almost trying to play like a flanker for a bit defending around the breakdown - obvious reasons why he would be inclined to do that!

His sheer physical attributes are also very much on show however with some excellent tackles coming in.

He still needs to get lower in the tackle if he wants to be more effective IMO.

Promising from Burgess. I hope they bring him back on at least for a bit.

jonny wilkinson doesnt look as comfortable in the commentary team as he did on the field...i thought his point about Goode being outstanding so far was interesting though.

Very surprised that's a yellow card, penalty yes but yellow seems harsh

re burgess. you can see the impact he has on the team. geeing everyone up. really impressed with that. and his tackling. this is by far his best appearance at centre that i have seen. nice that we so many options that are so different.

If England could cut out these stupid penalties, the score board could look aloT healthier for England.

Burgess? I am not sure right now if he should stay at centre or go in the pack.

Slade is having a great game at the moment.

Lets hope the second half is better than the first half.( fior England that is)ok.

French pack is the better, England backs are the better. Almost equaling each other out.

Rbgland conceding far too many pens right now. Forwards need to step up, particularly the locks and props at the scrum.

This ref has issues spotting knock ons

lot of players raising their hands for not just the cut, but the first team. great to see.

What a soft yellow.

What utter Poopie

i guess thats these new rules about rolling people away from mauls. hope that doesnt become a big factor at rwc.

nice try saving calf from burgess there. lol.

All the talk about discipline from SL - just talk. 3 YC situations so far. Ridiculous.

What a joke! I've never even seen that penalised let alone given a Frak yellow!

Wood and Clark have both been a bit average so far unfortunately. What happened to Kvesic?

Good game for the Saracens boys so far. Vunipola has been really excellent, Goode showed vision and skill and his step actually worked, Farrell and Wigglesworth have controlled the game well.

Outside them, May and Watson have left left Nowell with a very big task to displace them.

What a Frak joke that Clark yellow was. This ref is Poopie

Yeah Clark a bit anonymous before that.

I don't have much praise for this ref either

The gap quality of these games compared to this morning;s is canyon-wide.

Really looking like we need our first choice forwards IMO.

Pot Hale wrote:The gap quality of these games compared to this morning;s is canyon-wide.

What a silly comment.

Slightly different sort of game and quality of teams...

what an idiot this ref is. foul play doesnt require the game to be in play. moron.

Are you allowed to trip a player after the ball is in touch?