Italy v Scotland, 22 August

First topic message reminder :

 
ITALY v SCOTLAND
22 August 2015
KO: 19:00 BST
Stadio Olimpico di Torino, Turin

Live on BT Sport

Referee: JP Doyle (England)
Assistant Referees: [TBC]
TMO: [TBC]

A. Head to Head

23 Played 23
8 Won 15
0 Drawn 0
15 Lost 8
416 Points 524

B. Recent Form

28 February 2015
BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh
19 – 22 to Italy

22 February 2014
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
20 – 21 to Scotland

22 June 2013
Loftus Versfeld, Pretoria, South Africa
30 – 29 to Scotland

9 February 2013
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
34 – 10 to Scotland

17 March 2012
Stadio Olimpico, Rome
13 – 6 to Italy

20 August 2011
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
23 – 12 to Scotland

19 March 2011
Murrayfield, Edinburgh
21 – 8 to Scotland

C. Teams

ITALY

15 Andrea Masi
14 Leonardo Sarti
13 Tommaso Benvenuti
12 Gonzalo Garcia
11 Giovambattista Venditti
10 Tommaso Allan
9 Guglielmo Palazzani

8 Samuela Vunisa
7 Alessandro Zanni
6 Francesco Minto
5 Valerio Bernabó
4 Quintin Geldenhuys (c)
3 Lorenzo Cittadini
2 Davide Giazzon
1 Matias Aguero

16 Leonardo Ghiraldini
17 Michele Rizzo
18 Martin Castrogiovanni
19 Marco Bortolami
20 Mauro Bergamasco
21 Marcello Violi
22 Carlo Canna
23 Luke McLean

SCOTLAND

15 Greig Tonks (Edinburgh Rugby) – 5 caps
14 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors) – 94 caps; 12 tries, 60 points
13 Richie Vernon (Glasgow Warriors) – 21 caps
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby) – 26 caps, 3 tries, 15 points
11 Rory Hughes (Glasgow Warriors) – uncapped
10 Duncan Weir (Glasgow Warriors) – 18 caps; 1 try, 5 cons, 6 pens, 1 drop
09 Sam Hidalgo-Clyne (Edinburgh Rugby) – 6 caps

01 Gordon Reid (Glasgow Warriors) – 9 caps
02 Stuart McInally (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
03 Mike Cusack (Glasgow Warriors) – 1 cap
04 Richie Gray (Castres) – 44 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
05 Grant Gilchrist CAPTAIN (Edinburgh Rugby) – 9 caps, 1 try, 5 points
06 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan) – 44 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
07 John Hardie (unattached) – uncapped
08 Adam Ashe (Glasgow Warriors) – 5 caps

16 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) – 86 caps; 2 tries, 10 points
17 Alasdair Dickinson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 44 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
18 Willem Nel (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped
19 Jim Hamilton (Saracens) – 62 caps; 1 try, 5 points
20 Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) – 1 cap
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) – 14 caps; 3 tries, 15 points
22 Peter Horne (Glasgow Warriors) – 8 caps; 1 try, 1 con, 1 pen 10 points
23 Damien Hoyland (Edinburgh Rugby) – uncapped

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:FFS I just switched off in disgust at that utter shambles.

We then score.

Don't you dare change the channel back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Really have to commend Italy for being so far offside, so often, and not get dinged.

Apparently only 5 handling errors each.

Pfffft

Penalty from the scrum!

Hamish Watson has been all action since coming on!

Well, this is very much the definition of 'a wins a win'!

Job done, but jaysus, that was too much like hard work.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Well, this gave us very much the definition of 'a wins a win'!

So true.

Awful match, but at least we won. Horne, Watson and the front row replacements made the most impact for me. Saying that Pyrgos has cemented the no 2 spot at scrum half after steadying things when he came on.

George Carlin wrote:Really have to commend Italy for being so far offside, so often, and not get dinged.

i thought they had changed the rules? it started at 1m then ended at 5-7 m. not pinged once.

Right, summary time

Pluses
Matt Scott
Hamish Watson when he came on
Pyrgos when he came on
The defence
Big JH lasted 80  mins when he wasn't even supposed to have started
Stuart McInally
Peter Horne when he came on (anyone see a trend appearing?)
Things can only get better

Negatives
The starting props were minced
SHC's service was really poor
Mike Blair sounds like he consumes industrial quantities of helium
JP Doyle had no control of the game - both sides were as  guilty as each other

So, Horne and Henners move forward two spaces but Samwise and Meatball go backwards.

Hamish Watson - proving himself to be a handy impact sub?

jimbopip wrote:So, Horne and Henners move forward two spaces but Samwise and Meatball go backwards.

Weir is so far at the back, he must be in the car park by now.

cakeordeath wrote:Surely Weir and Strokosh have played their way out of the squad.

They should never have been in contention in the first place. Strokosch is not the player he used to be, and Weir just doesn't have the game to make the best of our backline.

It's a win, and given how accustomed Italy have become to beating us these days, I'm pleased we came up with something under pressure to win the match.

Pyrgos is quietly convincing me as well. He appears to have the temperament for international rugby.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Hamish Watson - proving himself to be a handy impact sub?

Well he's no John Hardie of Hugh Blake. I suspect we'll have him back at Edinburgh shortly.

jimbopip wrote:So, Horne and Henners move forward two spaces but Samwise and Meatball go backwards.

A very good summary indeed. SHC and Weir were plain rubbish and rubbish in the way that you can't blame on tactics. Weir may actually (hopefully?) have played himself out the squad with Russell, Horne and if needed, Hogg ahead of him

Can I get the word "fannies" in my 1,000th post?

Ya dancer, I did!!! Git it right up yez, mods.

if it were me id drop laidlaw and have shc and pyrgos, pyrgos does what laidlaw does but better.

hamish watson played great for the 25 mins he was on. id like to see him in the next match. one great turnover and another good run.

InjuredYetAgain wrote:

jimbopip wrote:So, Horne and Henners move forward two spaces but Samwise and Meatball go backwards.

A very good summary indeed. SHC and Weir were plain rubbish and rubbish in the way that you can't blame on tactics. Weir may actually (hopefully?) have played himself out the squad with Russell, Horne and if needed, Hogg ahead of him

Tonks was better at 10 in the last game as well. I don't think Weir would make it into my Scotland D side.

It's been far to long since I've used this thing at fulltime when talking about Scotland

Re: scrum half I think it's likely that Laidlaw will be first choice for Cotter. He won't want to burden Russell with the goal kicking and Pyrgos can't kick. Hidalgo-Clyne needed to perform well to oust Laidlaw, and tonight he failed, in conjunction with the hapless Parks v.2.

Nice on Fes, I had forgotten about Tonks. That said, I do think our stand off's will be the 3 I listed and Tonks will not be needed (nor will Jackson)

Did anyone think that we looked a bit off the pace, the back-row slow to the breakdown etc? The Italians seemed to have more bodies around the ball most of the time.

InjuredYetAgain wrote:Did anyone think that we looked a bit off the pace, the back-row slow to the breakdown etc? The Italians seemed to have more bodies around the ball most of the time.

Don't limit that to the breakdown, looked lethargic all over the pitch until the final 7/8 minutes

I thought Hardie done well. I thought the breakdown was a complete shambles

Hardie put in a couple of really thumping tackles and was quite impressive. I think he might start next week too so that BVC can see him in action before he has to finalise his 31 man squad before the French game

A side point - because we won, we are back up to 10th in the world ranking according to the IRB website. I didn't know these games were even treated a "cap" internationals although I knew that they would cup-tie Hardie, Nel etc to us

If they weren't capped internationals then Strauss could have played I'm fairly sure.

Yup, fair point

Well a wins a win but not a great performance.

Pack were off the pace and were bullied, out of the starting pack I think hardie and mcinally were the only ones who came out with real credit.
Ashe & strokosh were very poor. Hamilton was ok but nothing special. Gray was poor and despite playing in France still hasn't learned how to impose himself physically, needs a good kick up the rear end!
Reid and cusack weren't the best tonight, cusack came off 2nd best in the scrum.
The backs didn't get much ball to really do anything with. SHC had a very mixed game, some great moments but a few howlers too. Weir was ok but just doesn't impose himself like a international ten should. Scott looked back to decent form. Vernon was good in defence & had a couple of runs in attack but did throw a couple of poor passes. Hughes chased well and tackled well but got very little ball in hand. Lamont defended well and looked for work. Tonics was rubbish.

Part of the problem with the pack was no dominant ball carrier, Ashe tried to carry but just didn't make any yards or break the tackle.

For me Richie Gray has played himself out the starting xv. Strokosh, Tonks and possibly Ashe have played themselves out the World Cup squad.

Watson, Horne and pyrgos all looked very good when they came on.

I was watching on a terrible stream, so it was really hard to make anyone out, but was Tonks that bad? From what i could make out he saw very little of the ball. But as I say, it was a terrible stream, so he could have been shocking.

Tonks certainly wasn't great, dropped a couple of easy high balls and also dropped a calls of passes as well. His positioning at full back looked a bit off as well.

Maj - sounds like the Denton vs Ashe debate has been settled in the warm up games?

I think Tonks should now be seen as a 10. I thought he went well there last week.

An arm wrestle in Italy was obviously not going to help us learn about the backs but some questions in the front row were answered.

WP Nel looks the real deal
The Coo, not so convincing
Watson looks good
SHC looked to take on too much himself but with Weir outside him he didn't have much choice.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Maj - sounds like the Denton vs Ashe debate has been settled in the warm up games?

I think Tonks should now be seen as a 10. I thought he went well there last week.

Yep I think on current form Denton is miles ahead of Ashe . Two very different style number 8s but I think the type of 8 scotland need is more the Denton type. A big physical ball carrier.

Majestic83 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Maj - sounds like the Denton vs Ashe debate has been settled in the warm up games?

I think Tonks should now be seen as a 10. I thought he went well there last week.

Yep I think on current form Denton is miles ahead of Ashe . Two very different style number 8s but I think the type of 8 scotland need is more the Denton type. A big physical ball carrier.

Could they not play together? Denton seems like more of a blindside flanker to me anyway, he isn't quite smart enough to play at 8, but his ball carrying can be a huge asset at flanker. Ashe is better suited to 8 from what I have seen, and a very good player with a lot of potential.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Maj - sounds like the Denton vs Ashe debate has been settled in the warm up games?

I think Tonks should now be seen as a 10. I thought he went well there last week.

Yep I think on current form Denton is miles ahead of Ashe . Two very different style number 8s but I think the type of 8 scotland need is more the Denton type. A big physical ball carrier.

Could they not play together? Denton seems like more of a blindside flanker to me anyway, he isn't quite smart enough to play at 8, but his ball carrying can be a huge asset at flanker. Ashe is better suited to 8 from what I have seen, and a very good player with a lot of potential.

They could potentially play together but at the moment neither of them work hard enough at the breakdown doing the unseen work to be able to play both together. I think it's a shootout between the two to see who will partner Strauss and the openside winner in the back row.

MY SCOTLAND RATINGS

Reid - 4 - Totally anonymous
McInally - 6 - Tried hard, perhaps too hard
Cusack - 4 - Strong in the tackle, but a penalty machine
Hamilton - 4 - Looked seriously off the pace and quite tired
Gray - 8 - Tackled his socks off never giving an inch, plus stole two lineouts
Strokosch - 4 - Was he playing?
Hardie -7 - Was everywhere and with a different ref would have won 5+ ruck penalties
Ashe - 5 - Didn't do anything wrong, but didn't put his stamp on the game

SHC - 5 - Had a perfect first half, but fell apart in the 2nd
Weir - 3 - Should never play for Scotland again
Hughes - 5 - Worked hard but only made 18 yards and missed 2 tackles
Scott - 8 - Scotland's stand out back always making meters
Vernon - 7 - Some nice touches and looked dangerous when he got ball
Lamont - 5 - Pretty anonymous
Tonks - 5 - Solid but still doesn't look like an international


Ford - 5 - Did nothing wrong
Dickinson -6 - Shored up the scrum
Nel - 7 - Won a penalty with first scrum and solidified it
Watson - 7 - Won a nice turnover and made a good run
Pyrgos - 8 - Took control of the game and took his try well
Horne - 8 - His best game in a blue shirt. Made the most meters in just 12 minutes
Hoyland - 4 -Was he on?

Pretty much agree with these, Maccas.

In terms of what I think we now know:

1. Our first choice front row remains the Edinburgh one. No surprises. Reid will do as backup and as a young player, I want him to have the experience. I think that McInally potentially offers more around the field than Bryce and I think he probably edges ahead at the moment. Really torn on Cusack - hard to be critical of someone with barely a handful of caps but Welsh gets around the field a lot more. We really need to see Mike be refereed by someone with an actual grip on the game.

2. Is Gilchrist made of glass or something? Has Rory Lamont told him the best way to avoind playing in games that he doesn't want to play in? I'm semi-serious about this - is his body dependable? Richie Gray really did not play well and looked off the pace - willing to forgive him but he needs to improve. Hamilton does not have the fitness for international games now and his frustration with his own physical limitations always seems to result in conceding penalties. Maybe Harley at lock is not quite as silly as it seems...

3. At last things are clearing up amongst the loose forwards. If we needed confirmation that there is a demonstrable lack of power in moving from Denton to Ashe, then we have it now. No shame in this, as Denton is an older man and more battle hardened, but the disparity in carrying ability is now clear.

4. Even the most one eyed polemicist hater of the residency rule has to admit that Hardie looks like a very strong prospect and we really need to see him with a referee who actually can run a breakdown and not ignore the offside rule. The complicating factor is that Watson also really upped the tempo and made an impact. I would start with Hardie in the next game and keep Watson on the bench. Hardie isn't as sharp as he would like to be (he cramped on the hour mark) so I genuinely think that Watson has a shot.

5. Unless John Barclay starts the next game and plays a full 80, then he cannot be realistically in contention for a place. There's a good argument that he never was. 

6. In summary, then, Denton has to travel which raises the issue of whether Cotter sees him as an 8 or a blindside. I would think probably an 8 as VC may still play left-right flankers. If he does, then Ryan Wilson still has an outside chance, but again, would need to play a full 80 in the next game to be a realistic contender. He may well have fecked his RWC chances with that ban, but I suppose we knew that at the time.

7. At scrum half, I am pleased that Cotter has genuinely different players to choose from, depending on what the game needs. If it's fast and loose then it's Clyne (who wasn't great last night, apart from his excellent box kicking), if it's control and applied pressure, then it's Pyrgos. If it's the ability to pass very slowly, kick at 85% and carry the ring of power into Mordor, then it's Laidlaw.

8. We never really got a chance to see our backs with front foot ball, which was incredibly irritating. I couldn't really comment on Matt Scott because I hardly saw him. He obviously has it in him to deliver moments of real quality like the perfect pass for Pyrgos' try. The problem is that Peter Horne can do that too and he seems to be able to do it more often. Centre slot is still wildly up in the air.

9. Wings - oh god, Sean Maitland, please be fit for the next game. Please.

madmaccas wrote:MY SCOTLAND RATINGS

Reid - 4 - Totally anonymous
McInally - 6 - Tried hard, perhaps too hard
Cusack - 4 - Strong in the tackle, but a penalty machine
Hamilton - 4 - Looked seriously off the pace and quite tired
Gray - 8 - Tackled his socks off never giving an inch, plus stole two lineouts
Strokosch - 4 - Was he playing?
Hardie -7 - Was everywhere and with a different ref would have won 5+ ruck penalties
Ashe - 5 - Didn't do anything wrong, but didn't put his stamp on the game

SHC - 5 - Had a perfect first half, but fell apart in the 2nd
Weir - 3 - Should never play for Scotland again
Hughes - 5 - Worked hard but only made 18 yards and missed 2 tackles
Scott - 8 - Scotland's stand out back always making meters
Vernon - 7 - Some nice touches and looked dangerous when he got ball
Lamont - 5 - Pretty anonymous
Tonks - 5 - Solid but still doesn't look like an international


Ford - 5 - Did nothing wrong
Dickinson -6 - Shored up the scrum
Nel - 7 - Won a penalty with first scrum and solidified it
Watson - 7 - Won a nice turnover and made a good run
Pyrgos - 8 - Took control of the game and took his try well
Horne - 8 - His best game in a blue shirt. Made the most meters in just 12 minutes
Hoyland - 4 -Was he on?

I'm pretty much in agreement with you Maccas, except I think JP Doyle had a poor game and most of the penalties against the Coo could have gone the other way with a better ref.

It's difficult to judge the back three because we never played to them in the first 70 minutes, but Tonks did nothing to press his case. I've got a feeling Samwise and Meatball won't be talking over their muesli this morning. They weren't in tune with each other at all and early in the second half both went into complete meltdown. Whether one or both was at fault is for Vern to decide. I think Meatball can start preparing to face the Scaahlets and Samwise is looking at being number three in the pecking order.

The big question for me is, "Who is the mystery screamer?". I was on BT and after the replacements came on suddenly I could hear a Scots voice screaming instructions at the breakdown, "Keep possesion! Don't kick! Look at your positions!" As we say at Scotstoun, "I love the sound of shouting at the breakdown. It smells like...leadership."

madmaccas wrote:MY SCOTLAND RATINGS

Reid - 4 - Totally anonymous
McInally - 6 - Tried hard, perhaps too hard
Cusack - 4 - Strong in the tackle, but a penalty machine
Hamilton - 4 - Looked seriously off the pace and quite tired
Gray - 8 - Tackled his socks off never giving an inch, plus stole two lineouts
Strokosch - 4 - Was he playing?
Hardie -7 - Was everywhere and with a different ref would have won 5+ ruck penalties
Ashe - 5 - Didn't do anything wrong, but didn't put his stamp on the game

SHC - 5 - Had a perfect first half, but fell apart in the 2nd
Weir - 3 - Should never play for Scotland again
Hughes - 5 - Worked hard but only made 18 yards and missed 2 tackles
Scott - 8 - Scotland's stand out back always making meters
Vernon - 7 - Some nice touches and looked dangerous when he got ball
Lamont - 5 - Pretty anonymous
Tonks - 5 - Solid but still doesn't look like an international


Ford - 5 - Did nothing wrong
Dickinson -6 - Shored up the scrum
Nel - 7 - Won a penalty with first scrum and solidified it
Watson - 7 - Won a nice turnover and made a good run
Pyrgos - 8 - Took control of the game and took his try well
Horne - 8 - His best game in a blue shirt. Made the most meters in just 12 minutes
Hoyland - 4 -Was he on?

My only arguments here are that Watson surely deserves the same 8 as Pyrgos and Horne, he was absolutely everywhere in the 25 minutes he was on the field, and I'm not sure I'd give Gray an 8. He started well but over the 80 minutes I don't think he had nearly enough impact.

Also anyone else think the headline in the Scotsman today is massively overstating things? "Italy 12 Scotland 16: Scots roar back in Turin" I'm not sure if they watched the game but I can only assume the roaring they refer to is the same screamer Jimbo is talking about, as there was precious little roaring happening in a rugby sense!

Italy had 67% possession in the first half, 57% over the 80.

No wonder our backs struggled to show up well. Especially compared to last week when we were throwing the ball about from early on. I suspect young Sam was getting frustrated and just tried to force things.

Yes Watson, Pyrgos and Horne played well when they came on, but by that point we a) had the ball and b) were chasing the game so actually had to attack!

It's easy to be critical of the performance of some players,  but I think we need to consider that this is the first competitive game some of these players have played since their seasons ended several weeks ago.

Hopefully getting these games under their belts will put them in a good place come WC ko.

I think nearly every 'fringe' player has had a run out.  I'd fully expect the game next week to be our strongest (in VC's eyes) team. With laidlaw and Finn both starting.

Fair point RDW, but....

From last night only; Scott the Family sized Meatball, Furra Linee, Henners, Richie V (still the only fit 13) played themselves into the 31.
Everyone else either was a "Hmm"; Gray, all the props, Hardie, Watson
or a "FFS"; the rest of them.

[quote="EWT Spoons"

I think nearly every 'fringe' player has had a run out.  I'd fully expect the game next week to be our strongest (in VC's eyes) team. With laidlaw and Finn both starting.[/quote]

There we have the winner of the , "Provide an easily understood example of an oxymoron." competition.

Well done, Mr Spoons.

Thanks. But just to reiterate I did say in VC's eyes.

Ah Jimbo - you were doing so WELL with the quotes function too.

Old habits die hard.

Here's a fun thing.

Sean Maitland 15 caps - 2 tries
Henry Pyrgos 15* caps - 4 tries    

(*12 from the bench, compared to Maitlands all starts)

Stats as ever make interesting reading, Stroks 16 tackles. Pyrgos made as many passess as SHC.........http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/263325.html

To me pyrgos is turning out to be the form 9. Watson looked good as well. from the bad feed I watched. Vernon putting his hand up as well.

A lot of tackles by the back row and locks. A lot!