France v England, 22nd August

 
FRANCE v ENGLAND
22 August 2015
KO: 20:00 BST (21:00 Local)
Stade de France, Paris

Sky Sports

Referee: Jaco Peyper (South Africa)
Assistant Referees: John Lacey (Ireland) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Simon McDowell (Ireland)

A. Head to Head

100 Played 100
38 Won 55
7 Drawn 7
55 Lost 38
1,244 Points 1,572

B. Recent Form

15 August 2015
Twickenham, London
19-14 to England

21 March 2015
Twickenham, London
55 – 35 to England

1 February 2014
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
26 – 24 to France

23 February 2013
Twickenham, London
23 – 13 to England

11 March 2012
Stade de France, Saint-Denis
22 – 24 to England


C. Teams

ENGLAND

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 37 caps)
14. Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 8 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
12. Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints, 12 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 14 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 47 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 31 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 22 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 22 caps)
5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 38 caps)
6. James Haskell (Wasps, 59 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 37 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 13 caps)

Replacements

16. Jamie George (Saracens, uncapped)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens,21 caps)
18. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 42 caps)
19. Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 21 caps)
20. Nick Easter (Harlequins, 51 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 51 caps)
22. Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks, 13 caps)
23. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 21 caps)

FRANCE


Spedding; Huget, Bastareaud, Fofana, Nakaitaci; Michalak, Tillous-Borde; Arous, Guirado, Slimani, Pape, Maestri, Chouly, Le Roux, Picamoles.

Replacements: Kayser, Debaty, Atonio, Flanquart, Nyanga, Kockott, Tales, Fickou.

Good recent record at Stade de France for England, looking forward to seeing some more first choice players on both sides. It will be interesting to see some bench picks, particularly in the centres - does Lancaster give Slade another go from the bench, or does Twelvetrees get some additional game time (at the moment he looks like first in the queue for the exit door).

Breaking news : France might have 2 wingers on the pitch this time!

considering there is still a few players to test prior the announcement on the 23rd I would expect a team like that :

Ben Arous - Guirado/Kayzer - Slimani
Flanquart - Papé
Nyanga - Picamoles - Le Roux
tillous bordes - Michalak
Nakaitaci- Fofana - Fickou - Huget
Dulin

dusautoir is out and no need to test Bastareaud, we all know what he does anyway. and picamoles has to play all games (even the irrelevant ones) such is the gap between him and then next best 8.

Who is the next French 8? Cant remember his name but wasnt there a blond chap that was a bit of a unit and was rather babyfaced?

Do you mean Galan? He's kind of fallen off the radar a bit hasn't he

I like the look of Ollivon, he's just moved to Toulon though so not sure if he'll get much of a shot after the RWC with Thor going there too

Galan has been hampered by injuries like most Toulouse forwards and his fitness is not great. With Picamoles back he will be in trouble but agree he showed some good things specially against sarries in Wembley (2 years ago?)
Ollivon is quite a complete number 8, young, athletic, decent hands and can also carry. he can improve and could be the future. hopefully he will get to play in the next few weeks and has already impressed in Toulon warm up games.
for the rwc france has to make do with Chouly (good player but not a ball carrier and plays flanker at club) or goujon (not near internationel level)

Picamoles was out standing last week, he's such a good player i'm surprised he's never got more caps.

England team i'd like:

Marler
Youngs
Wilson
Launchberry
Lawes
Haskell
Robshaw
Morgan
Youngs
Ford
Nowell
Burgess
Joseph
Watson
Brown

George, Corbs, Thomas, Easter, Billy V, Care, Farrell, Slade

The Mail reckon its going to be

Brown
Nowell
Joseph
Burrell
May
Ford
Youngs

Marler
Youngs
Cole
Lawes
Launchbury
Haskell
Robshaw
Vunipola

Bench - George, Brookes, Wilson, Attwood, Easter, Care, Cips, AN Other

So pretty much what you were hoping yappysnap, other than May, Burrell and Billy ahead of Watson, Burgess and Morgan

Also looks like Brookes is ahead of Corbs, as the prop to cover both sides .. has he played much on the loosehead? Obviously we'd hope he doesn't have to other than 10 mins at the end of a game!

Looks like as strong a 15 as is available. I do think those will be our wingers, Watson being penalised because of versatility.

BamBam wrote:The Mail reckon its going to be

Brown
Nowell
Joseph
Burrell
May
Ford
Youngs

Marler
Youngs
Cole
Lawes
Launchbury
Haskell
Robshaw
Vunipola

Bench - George, Brookes, Wilson, Attwood, Easter, Care, Cips, AN Other

So pretty much what you were hoping yappysnap, other than May, Burrell and Billy ahead of Watson, Burgess and Morgan

Telegraph has the same, with Twelvetrees as the AN Other.

I almost wish there was an extra warm up game, we've seen the whole squad in the first two (i think?) which is fair enough, but i would have liked to see a bit more of Slade and Burgess, if either can really push their case then get them in, as it is i don't think both of them will have done enough to make it in SL's eyes, I'd have Slade in like a shot

Rugby Fan wrote:

BamBam wrote:The Mail reckon its going to be

Brown
Nowell
Joseph
Burrell
May
Ford
Youngs

Marler
Youngs
Cole
Lawes
Launchbury
Haskell
Robshaw
Vunipola

Bench - George, Brookes, Wilson, Attwood, Easter, Care, Cips, AN Other

So pretty much what you were hoping yappysnap, other than May, Burrell and Billy ahead of Watson, Burgess and Morgan

Telegraph has the same, with Twelvetrees as the AN Other.

Fair enough. I think Billy has earned another 20 mins over the last couple of years. I think that's fair from Lancaster.

I think it's 2 from 3 in Burrell, Burgess and Slade. And unless Burrell has a cracker, I think it'll be Burgess and Slade.

If Burrell does have a cracker (not very likely from what I've seen of his form in 2015), it'll be Burrell and Slade.

While it's nice to be apparently free from serious injuries right now , and the squad seems in good shape, does anyone else have a nagging sense that this is coming a year too soon for us? Burgess and Slade clearly have what it takes but one will probably miss oh through inexperience, while Itoje or Clifford could have staked a great claim for the 6 jersey and players like ford, Joseph, Watson and Nowell could do with 10 more caps each going into a major tournament.

Maybe we're destined to be in perpetual development but I can't help thinking that we've probably got the bulk of our side for the next 5 years now but they may still be a bit raw.

spaynter wrote:I think it's 2 from 3 in Burrell, Burgess and Slade. And unless Burrell has a cracker, I think it'll be Burgess and Slade.

If Burrell does have a cracker (not very likely from what I've seen of his form in 2015), it'll be Burrell and Slade.

Agree, and Burrell's handling is just not up to standard. He's regressed after really improving the year before last. With how poor he is defensively, it's not good enough unfortunately.

Tom Croft training with England this week.

Not a contender for the squad - but to ensure he is up to speed with the patterns should there be an injury.

spaynter wrote:I think it's 2 from 3 in Burrell, Burgess and Slade. And unless Burrell has a cracker, I think it'll be Burgess and Slade.

If Burrell does have a cracker (not very likely from what I've seen of his form in 2015), it'll be Burrell and Slade.

So if its not Burrell...it'll be Burrell and Slade?

LondonTiger wrote:Tom Croft training with England this week.

Not a contender for the squad - but to ensure he is up to speed with the patterns should there be an injury.

With Croft's luck, the next injury will be his.

thomh wrote:While it's nice to be apparently free from serious injuries right now   , and the squad seems in good shape, does anyone else have a nagging sense that this is coming a year too soon for us? Burgess and Slade clearly have what it takes but one will probably miss oh through inexperience, while Itoje or Clifford could have staked a great claim for the 6 jersey and players like ford, Joseph, Watson and Nowell could do with 10 more caps each going into a major tournament.

Maybe we're destined to be in perpetual development but I can't help thinking that we've probably got the bulk of our side for the next 5 years now but they may still be a bit raw.

I agree to a certain degree that we have been just a year or so away for quite a few years now, and the perception of perpetual building and rebuilding can be easily understood.  it's an odd thing that we have more or less kept a strong pack, despite personnel changes, which could easily win matches.  But the backs, weirdly, less so. Not usually terrible, but not so good either. Something has always been missing.  

Perhaps we will always compare every England team to the 2000-2003 teams which were so strong.  This group is simply not at that level nor has their experience.  Probably points out how good that team was and how difficult it is to get back to that level.  

I also still wonder about the coaching.  I know we have kicked this one around for a while on other threads, but I feel we are a bit below that old team as well.  Two months and it's all over and we can bask in the afterglow of victory.  Or blame Rob Andrew.

thomh wrote:...does anyone else have a nagging sense that this is coming a year too soon for us...

That has always been the overall narrative but I think the story arc has changed over time.

When we beat NZ in 2012, I though we'd be in much stronger shape come the World Cup.

Back then, I assumed we'd have a solid, seasoned half back pairing; someone to partner Manu in midfield; Ashton on one wing, plus one of our bright young things on the other. At full back, I assumed we'd have an embarrassment of riches with Foden, Brown, Abendanon, Tait and/or Armitage in the squad.

Up front, I figured Corbs and Cole would be a formidable combination, giving us scope to handle the best hooker for our gameplan. I always thought Lawes should be in the team, and it was a question of who should be his partner. The back row was far more open, although it did look like Lancaster had at least placed his bets on Robshaw. Still, we had time to try a few faces, and Croft seemed like an obvious choice.

I have no problem with Ford or Cipriani challenging Farrell at 10 but it's infuriating that Youngs and Care have both been so inconsistent. I know why we still don't have a settled centre partnership, but that doesn't make it any easier. As far as the back three goes, I agree with beshocked that Lancaster has used wingers poorly. There's no way he would have treated back row selection the same way he treated back three.

If Corbs has lost potency through scrum law changes, then we are the losers but Marler looks good, so I can only hope our props can still make our first choice hooker look good. I always thought a big slab would go well next to Lawes but it seems to be Launchbury. Fair enough, Parling isn't a monster either, but has held his own at the highest level.

Our back row continues to confuse me. I know how Back, Dallaglio and Hill were supposed to work together - Back was the pest, Dallaglio the warrior, and Hill the éminence grise. I don't know what complementary roles Robshaw, Wood and Vunipola fill, but that could just be a failure of my rugby imagination.

Bottom line: it does seem too early but not for the reasons we originally thought.

Papers correct - england team now up top

So I reckon 14 of the starting 15 are definites for the final squad (Burrell could play himself in or out this weekend).  On the bench, Mako, Wilson and Care are certainties, everyone else playing for a spot.  George I suspect only needs to hit his jumpers when he comes on, and he'l be in ahead of LCD.

England to face France on Saturday 22 August
15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 37 caps)
14. Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 8 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
12. Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints, 12 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 14 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 11 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 47 caps)

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 31 caps)
2. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 22 caps)
3. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 50 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 22 caps)
5. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 38 caps)
6. James Haskell (Wasps, 59 caps)
7. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 37 caps)
8. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 13 caps)

Replacements

16. Jamie George (Saracens, uncapped)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 21 caps)
18. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 42 caps)
19. Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 21 caps)
20. Nick Easter (Harlequins, 51 caps)
21. Danny Care (Harlequins, 51 caps)
22. Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks, 13 caps)
23. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 21 caps)

So basically what we all expected. I wonder whether neither Slade nor Burgess getting a bench slot is a sign that the onus is now on Burrell and Twelvetrees to dislodge them from the squad. Widely assumed to be true of Twelvetrees anyway of course.

Pack looks great.

Doesn't it seem weird that Haskell has the most caps and is therefore the most senior player in the squad?

I'm actually extremely pleased about where SL has got the squad to right now. All positions have 2 or 3 players that are clearly capable of playing at the highest level. For that we should all recognise the achievement and give SL a huge pat on the back. His only problem is identifying which players complement each other and play as a team the best. A very good place to be.

Rugby Fan

Nice post. My feeling back then was probably that we would have enough experience by now, but constant renewal of the side, which has increased the talent in it, has also decreased the caps. You can see that in that this weekend's side only has two backs with more than 15. Ford in particular has been a bit of an elephant in a room on the horizon. It's been obvious since 2011 that he'd end up as England 10, but Lancaster struggled to balance giving him enough caps against not introducing him before he was ready. Manu's injury/indiscretion has also thrown a Lions & 30-cap player away to be replaced by the inexperienced Joseph. Likewise Ashton's form and Foden's injury record.

That said, the pack hasn't changed nearly as much. Corbisiero was first choice hooker then, but I thought Marler had been hard done by. His reputation took a big knock in the 2012 Australia game when he scrummaged on an injured knee. Asked to predict the 2015 World Cup pack we'd probably all have gone for something like:

Corbisiero/Marler/Vunipola
Hartley/Youngs
Cole
Lawes/Parling
Launchbury
Wood
Robshaw
Morgan

So actually the forwards haven't changed much at all, it's just that in the meantime there's been a huge amount of player turnover due to injuries that just now seems to have come full circle due to our current low injury count.

I'm slightly concerned at the side to play this Saturday. It looks very close to the full first choice side but there will be several ringrusty players out there (notably Brown). If, for whatever reason, it starts to go wrong it's hard to see where England would go from there. And a defeat with this side could be fatally damaging to england's confidence going into the RWC itself.

Simon

Didn't we lose the equivalent fixture in 2003?

thomh wrote:Simon

Didn't we lose the equivalent fixture in 2003?

But that side in that match, the match which broke the streak of consecutive wins, was not close to the starting side.

thomh - yes we did but the big differences then was that we played the first game in Paris where our 'B' team lost unluckily and narrowly to their full strength side. The following week at HQ we hammered their mix of of top and fringe players so badly in the first 50 minutes that they were forced to bring on more of their 'A' team simply to keep the score respectable, while we were able to rest eg Johnno and JW with the game already won.

Fair point - I'd forgotten that.

Billy Twelvetrees? Surely this must be his last chance. Why does he keep getting picked that's what i wan't to know?

Glad to see Cipriani getting another chance.

IF Brown is first choice full back and Goode is number 2 who is back up if either one of them get injured? Is it Twelvetrees?

I do like the look of the team that as been picked. Lets hope they get the job done like the 2nd string team did last week.

majesticimperialman wrote:Billy Twelvetrees? Surely this must be his last chance. Why does he keep getting picked that's what i wan't to know?

Glad to see Cipriani getting another chance.

IF Brown is first choice full back and Goode is number 2 who is back up if either one of them get injured? Is it Twelvetrees?

I do like the look of the team that as been picked. Lets hope they get the job done like the 2nd string team did last week.

All three wingers in the squad have played plenty at full back.

doctor_grey wrote:
I agree to a certain degree that we have been just a year or so away for quite a few years now, and the perception of perpetual building and rebuilding can be easily understood.  it's an odd thing that we have more or less kept a strong pack, despite personnel changes, which could easily win matches.  But the backs, weirdly, less so.  Not usually terrible, but not so good either.  Something has always been missing.  

Perhaps we will always compare every England team to the 2000-2003 teams which were so strong.  This group is simply not at that level nor has their experience.  Probably points out how good that team was and how difficult it is to get back to that level.  

I also still wonder about the coaching.  I know we have kicked this one around for a while on other threads, but I feel we are a bit below that old team as well.  Two months and it's all over and we can bask in the afterglow of victory.  Or blame Rob Andrew.

Or blame Woodward and Johnson... Heresy, I know, but Woodward had no plan in place beyond 2003, and Johnson's late failure of nerve and unwillingness to back his young players left the England camp in tatters. It's because of that that Lancaster had to start from an incredibly low experience base in terms of caps. (And it's because of the structures that Andrew, with the help of O'Shea and Lancaster, put in place that there was a pipeline of players with which to start).

I was at a presentation by Lancaster a couple of years ago where he showed the level of experience (in caps) of England versus their opponents since he took over. At the time, the number of games where England had taken the field with more caps than their opposition was... zero. There were several occasions where the opposition bench had more caps than the England starting XV.

When he took on the job he made a presentation to the RFU where he laid out the view that the RWC winners have always had a critical level of experience - I think it's around 700 caps - and laid out a plan to get there. I think he also pointed out that we wouldn't have the ideal mix of experience and youth until 2019 - I think the idea is to have a few players on 70+ caps, a core around 40-50 and a handful with fewer.

Since then, you can see how he's been building towards that. But every season it's been a new backline because someone critical has been injured or out of form. If you look at Saturday's squad - probably very close to an RWC XXIII if you swap Easter for Wood/Haskell, then the pack has 272 caps, the backs 150 and the bench around 200. Still a way short of the target: Richie McCaw has almost as much experience as the entire back division put together.

It shouldn't surprise us that the team looks a bit inexperienced. I also think that they aren't far off where Woodward's team were at the same level of experience. Woodward's England also contrived to lose 1 game in 4 successive 5/6N, and against weaker opposition. Lancaster also hasn't had a Tour of Hell, despite taking some - despite having very green squads on his the first tour to South Africa (two fairly narrow losses and a draw) and the first test against NZ in the summer (which we were a couple of minutes from winning).

For me, there are three big positives and one big negative for England coming into this RWC:
+) We've got a nearly fully fit squad and better depth than anyone bar NZ
+) Our back division looks like it's beginning to work well, as long as we can settle it
+) We will probably have gained more from a long training camp than teams with more experience of playing together
-) Our squad just hasn't played together for long enough to be able to work out what Plan B is when things go wrong. That needs experience. We don't have it, and can't get it.

SimonofSurrey wrote:thomh - yes we did but the big differences then was that we played the first game in Paris where our 'B' team lost unluckily and narrowly to their full strength side. The following week at HQ we hammered their mix of of top and fringe players so badly in the first 50 minutes that they were forced to bring on more of their 'A' team simply to keep the score respectable, while we were able to rest eg Johnno and JW with the game already won.  

It was the other way round - they sent a B team to Twickenham and then we sent a B team to play them in Marseille. We lost by less than 3 points and Paul Grayson had a late drop goal attempt that would have won it. So we had the satisfaction of knowing that, in the same situation with an A team, we'd have won because Jonny would have got it. Which, in due course, he did.

Corbs apparently missed selection with an injury, which puts his World Cup chances in doubt.

There could be as many as five 2013 English Lions who will miss out: Manu, Croft, Corbs, 36 and Wade. Lancaster pointed out that he never really had Croft, Manu or Corbs fit after that tour. Bet he's relieved Robshaw wasn't picked.

Most of the other tourists will go, although BOD has retired and Gatland just cut Phillips and Hibbard. Not sure if Adam Jones counts as retired or dropped.

Parling, Farrell, Barritt, Mako, Cole and the Youngs brothers look set for selection.

Poorfour wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:
I agree to a certain degree that we have been just a year or so away for quite a few years now, and the perception of perpetual building and rebuilding can be easily understood.  it's an odd thing that we have more or less kept a strong pack, despite personnel changes, which could easily win matches.  But the backs, weirdly, less so.  Not usually terrible, but not so good either.  Something has always been missing.  

Perhaps we will always compare every England team to the 2000-2003 teams which were so strong.  This group is simply not at that level nor has their experience.  Probably points out how good that team was and how difficult it is to get back to that level.  

I also still wonder about the coaching.  I know we have kicked this one around for a while on other threads, but I feel we are a bit below that old team as well.  Two months and it's all over and we can bask in the afterglow of victory.  Or blame Rob Andrew.

Or blame Woodward and Johnson... Heresy, I know, but Woodward had no plan in place beyond 2003, and Johnson's late failure of nerve and unwillingness to back his young players left the England camp in tatters. It's because of that that Lancaster had to start from an incredibly low experience base in terms of caps. (And it's because of the structures that Andrew, with the help of O'Shea and Lancaster, put in place that there was a pipeline of players with which to start).

I was at a presentation by Lancaster a couple of years ago where he showed the level of experience (in caps) of England versus their opponents since he took over. At the time, the number of games where England had taken the field with more caps than their opposition was... zero. There were several occasions where the opposition bench had more caps than the England starting XV.

When he took on the job he made a presentation to the RFU where he laid out the view that the RWC winners have always had a critical level of experience - I think it's around 700 caps - and laid out a plan to get there. I think he also pointed out that we wouldn't have the ideal mix of experience and youth until 2019 - I think the idea is to have a few players on 70+ caps, a core around 40-50 and a handful with fewer.

Since then, you can see how he's been building towards that. But every season it's been a new backline because someone critical has been injured or out of form. If you look at Saturday's squad - probably very close to an RWC XXIII if you swap Easter for Wood/Haskell, then the pack has 272 caps, the backs 150 and the bench around 200. Still a way short of the target: Richie McCaw has almost as much experience as the entire back division put together.

It shouldn't surprise us that the team looks a bit inexperienced. I also think that they aren't far off where Woodward's team were at the same level of experience. Woodward's England also contrived to lose 1 game in 4 successive 5/6N, and against weaker opposition. Lancaster also hasn't had a Tour of Hell, despite taking some - despite having very green squads on his the first tour to South Africa (two fairly narrow losses and a draw) and the first test against NZ in the summer (which we were a couple of minutes from winning).

For me, there are three big positives and one big negative for England coming into this RWC:
+) We've got a nearly fully fit squad and better depth than anyone bar NZ
+) Our back division looks like it's beginning to work well, as long as we can settle it
+) We will probably have gained more from a long training camp than teams with more experience of playing together
-) Our squad just hasn't played together for long enough to be able to work out what Plan B is when things go wrong. That needs experience. We don't have it, and can't get it.

That was a great read and I like your points. I didn't know Lancaster's equation of caps to winning, but I suppose it makes sense to a degree. I just wouldn't put a hard number (700?) on it but I get the point.

I don't believe it is heretical to blame Sir Clive. He had his good run, then he ran. MJ, on the other hand, I believe was not given the proper support system to succeed. As a neophyte coach he needed experience around him which could handle personnel, not just the Xs and Os. Prior to that disastrous 2011 RWC he had the team playing well.

But coming back to my point, I think we have had a strong pack for quite a while. It is the backs which have been weak for quite a while and where we need better play. I think we see just enough glimpses of potential to raise our hopes before we come in second in the 6 Nations again.

Ultimately, I do not believe the level of play under Lancaster has improved much the last couple of years. His first year he earned his free pass. But after it seems England has hit a level - a good level - but not more than that. I do believe we have the potential to beat anyone, but there is just something within the team which I can't put my finger on.

To your points, it is great we are reasonably healthy. I worry about Brown for the obvious reasons, as well as Cole's spine. But we have back row cover to last an eternity. And there is some real electricity in the backs which could be something special. And you are right, of course, they need game time together, which could ultimately be their undoing.

Hoping we are both a bit right and a bit wrong. Would be great to celebrate a home win.............

Its weird because I naturally want all our players to go well & Burrell must realises the pressure is on him in particular to perform but something tells me that Burgess & Slade (at their best) will always be better than anything Burrell can produce.
I agree that Slade is probably favourite to go through because of his versatility but having Burgess in the squad will potentially give us more.
I don't believe 12Ts is in the running & I agree it's almost a wasted space on the bench, but SL is being seen to be fair.

Burrell may be limited, but he is a centre. Burgess will never be a top class Union centre. With experience he may make it in the back row.

Thanks for doing the thread, Tiger!

offload wrote:Burrell may be limited, but he is a centre.  Burgess will never be a top class Union centre.  With experience he may make it in the back row.

Maybe but do we want a limited centre in the squad or someone that has great potential to provide something different.?
As was commented after the last game Burgess didn't look out of place.

Jesus. Is Jamie George really still uncapped?

I really hope we see a rampaging Haskell on Saturday showing what we know he is capable of at 6.

It would be great to see him really hit consistency right through the WC.

George Carlin wrote:Jesus. Is Jamie George really still uncapped?

So was Clark until last weekend and it feels like he's been in the squad for years!!!

Poorfour wrote:

SimonofSurrey wrote:thomh - yes we did but the big differences then was that we played the first game in Paris where our 'B' team lost unluckily and narrowly to their full strength side. The following week at HQ we hammered their mix of of top and fringe players so badly in the first 50 minutes that they were forced to bring on more of their 'A' team simply to keep the score respectable, while we were able to rest eg Johnno and JW with the game already won.  

It was the other way round - they sent a B team to Twickenham and then we sent a B team to play them in Marseille. We lost by less than 3 points and Paul Grayson had a late drop goal attempt that would have won it. So we had the satisfaction of knowing that, in the same situation with an A team, we'd have won because Jonny would have got it. Which, in due course, he did.

Poorfour - I agree about the late Paul Grayson penalty in Marseilles but remember vividly the sequence of the games. With respect, you're wrong. We played in Marseilles on 30 August when, effectively our 'B;' Team lost 17-16 to their almost full strength side, then won the return match at HQ on 6 September by 45-14, having stormed them for the first 50 then let up and leaked two tries. The psychology of this sequence was to prove crucial at the RWC: our second team had very nearly matched their best, while our best had annihilated their less than best.

Geordiefalcon completely agree. Want Haskell to bring his form from the Wales game - not that of the Ireland and French game in the 6 nations.

Obviously Watson is certain to start as long as he stays fit but where does this leave Wood?

George Carlin it's only really been this season that Jamie George had enough game time - has played 2nd fiddle to Schalk Brits and John Smit in previous seasons.

Brits long term injury was just what George needed as bad as it was for Brits.

Joint highest tackler in the ERCC - 91 tackles, 6 missed. Played in every AP game I think.

The form hooker in the AP IMO.

Lancaster wanted to leave him out of the squad too!

Wood has been quality for England many a time...but hasn't quite been on top form for England for a while when hes played.

Maybe Lancaster is also thinking what we have all said on here...the balance of that back row isn't quite right and you need some extra power at 6.
Of course Haskell has made it difficult by not making that position his own aswell.

Maybe now is his time to do so.

I honestly think Wood will find himself a squad member post WC. Others will come in and overtake him.

Lancaster wanted to leave him (George) out of the squad too!

Comes back to the queries we have over his Selection process at times....