Ali v Louis

Found this interesting video of Ali and Cus D'Amato discussing how Ali would do against Joe Louis.

http://www.sportsviewlondon.com/ali-and-cus-damato-share-difference-of-opinions/

How do people think it would have gone?

One sided decision.....Quicker, taller, better chin, faster hands, bigger..

Can't see any category Louis is better..More intimidating perhaps...But Ali fought George and Sonny.

Louis was technically superior to the likes of Foreman, Frazier and Norton. He'd have every chance depending which version of Ali were looking at?

Rocked by a 168 pounder...outfoxed by Conn and Walcott..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Rocked by a 168 pounder...outfoxed by Conn and Walcott..

Won both. Ali was troubled by Jones, Cooper, Young, Norton. So it goes.

I would side heavily with Ali. Pre-exile Ali would have been too slick for Joe and post-exile he had the chin and smarts to get the decision.

TheMarvelousOne wrote:I would side heavily with Ali. Pre-exile Ali would have been too slick for Joe and post-exile he had the chin and smarts to get the decision.

I think that's the consensus view. Super fights rarely work out that way, however (especially heavyweight super fights).

hazharrison wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Rocked by a 168 pounder...outfoxed by Conn and Walcott..

Won both. Ali was troubled by Jones, Cooper, Young, Norton. So it goes.

Louis admitted he lost to Walcott..............and he was being outboxed in the second when he landed a hail mary.....He admitted that too..

Look they were the two best "boxers" he faced..................and none was in the league of Ali...

Very revealing..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:One sided decision.....Quicker, taller, better chin, faster hands, bigger..

Can't see any category Louis is better..More intimidating perhaps...But Ali fought George and Sonny.

Louis' chin probably not that big an issue given ali wasn't the biggest hitter. The one area louis has an advantage is in punch power but again, against ali's chin that's not really going to help him in my view.

Haz is right that when two great fighters meet you can't take anything for granted, but in this one I have to like Ali. Certainly pre vietnam ali. 70's ali is a different matter... if he can lose to frazier and norton he can lose to Louis. I still err to Ali but its a borderline pickem.

Ali win.

ALi was boxing evolution Louis although very good was several years behind Ali in terms of technique. Louis might however match him for toughness.

Point is Milky If Walcott outboxed Louis for 22/23 rounds and Conn only lost because he traded...

If we assume Louis can't stop Ali................How does he win ???

He can't outbox him.....Also If Conn can stagger him weighing 168...Then Ali's power is a big issue...

He knocked down bigger men with better chins than Louis..

For Louis to even stand a chance of not being on the side of a 1 sided beating he would need to adapt a better technique then his stalking plodding style.

New question:

Which trainer post war do you think can teach Louis the skills needed to have a chance against Ali?

I would say Cus and his peek a boo style.

Thing is Louis weighed 199 pounds for Conn and came on strong in the 13th when a weight drained fighter should be sagging...

Lends one to believe he'd be regarded as a cruiser these days.....

He's my number 2 but like Marciano/Patterson he for me is the last of the old timers....

Liston/Ali brought the birth of the modern heavy for me....and I can't see Louis, Johnson, Dempsey types beating an in shape witherspoon let alone Ali....

They were greats from another time..

Indeed truss, Ali could knock him out, and certainly knock him down...but louis didn't end up face down every time he met a puncher. People who shouldn't have given ali a hard time, did post vietnam.  The Conn fight  has been done to death... and might give an indication of how young Ali does, but Louis had been champion for 10 years by the walcott fights and i'm not sure he was dominated as you infer.

It goes the distance and post vietnam Ali probably shades a close fight for me.

But yes in the head to head match-ups the old time heavies are physically struggling, which is why this kind of thing is always tricky... unless you imagine giving them an extra inch or two and a few extra pounds as they would likely naturally have had they been born later.

With regard to Walcott, as Milky has already alluded to Joe was a little long in the tooth by then, had spent a good few years in the army fighting little other than exhibitions. He almost certainly had one foot out of the sport and was probably only still fighting to try and get himself out of the hole he was in with the IRS. Has to be factored in to any assessment of his performance.

Ali wins points. Post exile Ali struggles more. Pre exile wins with a bit to spare.

Ali isn't technically superior. Only ever threw straight rights and hooks.

Ali never went to the body either. What he did do, no one could match. He could move like no one else and he could throw punches in bunches, when required, with blinding speed. No fighter had his reflexes and few matched his heart.

Louis though slower in foot,had fast and very accurate hands. Not as fast as Ali but he was a better puncher.

Ali for me definitely wins but Louis would have moments,especially vs post exile version.

Rowley wrote:With regard to Walcott, as Milky has already alluded to Joe was a little long in the tooth by then, had spent a good few years in the army fighting little other than exhibitions. He almost certainly had one foot out of the sport and was probably only still fighting to try and get himself out of the hole he was in with the IRS. Has to be factored in to any assessment of his performance.

I agree he was getting on......But Jersey was the most slippery opponent he'd faced since Conn.....enough evidence to suggest good boxers weren't his cup of tea..

I can't see how Louis beats Ali......But it's my opinion............

Joe's hand speed would be a factor - his blazing combinations would provide a constant threat. I'm not sure size is a factor either. The likes of Cooper, Jones, Frazier and Young were modest sized heavyweights - all of whom gave Ali trouble (both before and after his layoff).

Louis would find success with his left hook also (Ali could be hurt and dropped with left hooks).

It would be a close, classic fight. Pick 'em for me.

I would love to see a Louis Tyson fight. Both hard pubchers with accurate hands.

AdamT wrote:I would love to see a Louis Tyson fight. Both hard pubchers with accurate hands.

Fingers crossed....

I can't see anything other than a one sided stoppage victory for Ali, Louis at his best against a shopworn Ali may stand a chance but it's then no longer a level playing field. Louis' combinations are unlikely to be a factor against a bigger, faster and stronger guy like Ali.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I can't see anything other than a one sided stoppage victory for Ali, Louis at his best against a shopworn Ali may stand a chance but it's then no longer a level playing field. Louis' combinations are unlikely to be a factor against a bigger, faster and stronger guy like Ali.

Why not?

He'll be beaten to the punch regularly, he won't be on the offensive having that swift jab in his face all night. Ali dealt with more dangerous punchers than Louis.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:He'll be beaten to the punch regularly, he won't be on the offensive having that swift jab in his face all night. Ali dealt with more dangerous punchers than Louis.

He didn't deal with a more effective puncher. You think Ali - a counter puncher - would be the one moving forward? Interesting take.

Although I rate Louis as the #1 HW, due to longevity etc. Ali was simply bigger so would probably have won.

Louis hand speed and power were a potent combination and he might have been able to do it.

As pointed out, despite Ali remonstrating about how slow and small Louis was, it is worth remembering the Cooper and Frazier have him some of his toughest challengers and they weren't giants or lightning fast. Indeed, Cooper was little more than a SMW/LHW and quite ponderous.

Happytravelling wrote:Although I rate Louis as the #1 HW, due to longevity etc. Ali was simply bigger so would probably have won.

Louis hand speed and power were a potent combination and he might have been able to do it.

As pointed out, despite Ali remonstrating about how slow and small Louis was, it is worth remembering the Cooper and Frazier have him some of his toughest challengers and they weren't giants or lightning fast. Indeed, Cooper was little more than a SMW/LHW and quite ponderous.

I don't think size is an issue - Louis was big enough. While I could see an Ali win, the idea the fight would be one-sided seems odd. Ali went life and death in nearly all his big fights (aside from the Liston bouts which were fishy to put it mildly).

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:He'll be beaten to the punch regularly, he won't be on the offensive having that swift jab in his face all night. Ali dealt with more dangerous punchers than Louis.

He didn't deal with a more effective puncher. You think Ali  - a counter puncher - would be the one moving forward? Interesting take.

I'd have Liston down as a better all round boxer than Louis and being the best part of 20lbs heavier makes a difference in that.

Louis all round ability gets a bit overhyped due to the fact he reigned for so long and whilst a fabulous boxer we can't ignore that the best heavyweights in the proceeding years simply got bigger. When we talk about Sonny Liston being a solid 220lbs we're not talking about a basic Heavyweights like Buddy Baer or Abe Simon who had very little going for them aside from a bit of weight.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:He'll be beaten to the punch regularly, he won't be on the offensive having that swift jab in his face all night. Ali dealt with more dangerous punchers than Louis.

He didn't deal with a more effective puncher. You think Ali  - a counter puncher - would be the one moving forward? Interesting take.

I'd have Liston down as a better all round boxer than Louis and being the best part of 20lbs heavier makes a difference in that.

Louis all round ability gets a bit overhyped due to the fact he reigned for so long and whilst a fabulous boxer we can't ignore that the best heavyweights in the proceeding years simply got bigger. When we talk about Sonny Liston being a solid 220lbs we're not talking about a basic Heavyweights like Buddy Baer or Abe Simon who had very little going for them aside from a bit of weight.

Sonny was super boxer but he wasn't as technically on point as Louis. He also didn't show up against Clay/Ali. That would have been a great fight had it been on the level.

The first fight was quite clearly on the level unless blinding Ali was part of it and they were all in on it, Ali however can't be credited for mentally breaking Liston can he.

Louis was a technically proficient 200lber and I do find it odd that weight is so easily disregarded when it comes to him, it does and always has made a difference.

While I make Ali the favourite(I make him the favourite against any heavyweight who ever lived,) it seems like madness to me to completely dismiss the chances of the great Bronze Bomber against him. Ali beat some monsters and some fearsome punchers, but I don't think he ever faced a combination puncher like Louis:

http://www.livefight.com/news.php?news_id=1909&y=2012&m=04

Funny how Marciano V Walcott 2 is on the level but Liston 2 isn't..

Ali took his heart the first time and he dogged it the second.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:The first fight was quite clearly on the level unless blinding Ali was part of it and they were all in on it, Ali however can't be credited for mentally breaking Liston can he.

Louis was a technically proficient 200lber and I do find it odd that weight is so easily disregarded when it comes to him, it does and always has made a difference.

There was a lot of smoke and mirrors with the Ali story. Liston was tied to the mob and performed like a fighter in the tank: pulling his punches before an iffy retirement. I'm of the belief Clay was a young fighter in at the deep end looking for a way out. If he was blinded, where were the after effects? His eyes weren't even as much as bloodshot.

Liston was told when to sit down in both fights (anyone who thinks the second fight is above board, well honestly......).

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Funny how Marciano V Walcott 2 is on the level but Liston 2 isn't..

Ali took his heart the first time and he dogged it the second.

Completely different scenarios but don't let that ruin a good story....

Anyone who thinks they know the absolute truth about something they were not party to; well honestly.....

A journalist told him....so it's true..

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Anyone who thinks they know the absolute truth about something they were not party to; well honestly.....

Of course I don't know the truth - only a few people will. After consulting various studies/theories, this looks by far the most logical to me.

Liston's dive in the second fight is one of the most blatant in boxing history.

Louis was good for his era but he wouldn't beat Ali.

Ali around 67 would beat him either by late stoppage or on the cards and it wouldn't be that close either. Louis would maybe win a couple of rounds. Alis too big and quick.

Interesting video with Tyson being asked would he beat the brothers?

He replied he thought so but whether we like it or not,athletes get better not worse. Even if they LOOK worse. He was obviously hinting at

AdamT wrote:Louis was good for his era but he wouldn't beat Ali.

Ali around 67 would beat him either by late stoppage or on the cards and it wouldn't be that close either. Louis would maybe win a couple of rounds. Alis too big and quick.

Ali in '67 wasn't as sturdy as the version who went life and death with Frazier (small like Louis), Foreman and Norton. I could see Louis catching that quicker, less seasoned version late.

After reading various articles it's the most logical to you yes but may not be to other people including myself, the second fight doesn't somehow erase the first fight which was on the level as far as i'm concerned. Disagree with that viewpoint if you wish but don't make out as if your opinion on the matter is the definitive and believe it or not I too have read the large amount that has been written about it.

AdamT wrote:Interesting video with Tyson being asked would he beat the brothers?

He replied he thought so but whether we like it or not,athletes get better not worse. Even if they LOOK worse. He was obviously hinting at

Boxing isn't running or jumping. The Klitschkos could be as big and muscle bound as you like but they weren't as fast as the likes of Ali, they weren't as good, nor could they fight 15 rounds at a clip.

Tyson would have murdered the pair of them.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:After reading various articles it's the most logical to you yes but may not be to other people including myself, the second fight doesn't somehow erase the first fight which was on the level as far as i'm concerned. Disagree with that viewpoint if you wish but don't make out as if your opinion on the matter is the definitive and believe it or not I too have read the large amount that has been written about it.

Which of course I haven't done. These are my beliefs based on a logical set of assumptions.

Yes he would of but Ali was still a bit bigger than Louis and faster.

Ali wasn't invincible but he usually performed his best when he faced someone he knew was dangerous. He might not hit harder but I believe Ali could push Louis back if he needed too.

The jab and the foot speed is what makes the difference. Ali takes Louis to deep water and drowns him.

Louis was a great Champion, Ali is the greatest.

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:After reading various articles it's the most logical to you yes but may not be to other people including myself, the second fight doesn't somehow erase the first fight which was on the level as far as i'm concerned. Disagree with that viewpoint if you wish but don't make out as if your opinion on the matter is the definitive and believe it or not I too have read the large amount that has been written about it.

Which of course I haven't done. These are my beliefs based on a logical set of assumptions.

What you deem logical I deem biased and a deliberate attempt to belittle Ali based on a logical set of assumptions (your posting history).

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:After reading various articles it's the most logical to you yes but may not be to other people including myself, the second fight doesn't somehow erase the first fight which was on the level as far as i'm concerned. Disagree with that viewpoint if you wish but don't make out as if your opinion on the matter is the definitive and believe it or not I too have read the large amount that has been written about it.

Which of course I haven't done. These are my beliefs based on a logical set of assumptions.

What you deem logical I deem biased and a deliberate attempt to belittle Ali based on a logical set of assumptions (your posting history).

What nonsense - I hold Ali in the highest regard. The fact Liston looked to be in the tank has no bearing on Ali. Saying that, he isn't beyond criticism - regardless of those warm fuzzy feelings he gives you when you're watching 'When We Were Kings'.

Strange how you say that but the likes of Louis and Hagler are beyond criticism, is little baby Haz starting to have a hissy fit.

AdamT wrote:Yes he would of but Ali was still a bit bigger than Louis and faster.

Ali wasn't invincible but he usually performed his best when he faced someone he knew was dangerous. He might not hit harder but I believe Ali could push Louis back if he needed too.

The jab and the foot speed is what makes the difference. Ali takes Louis to deep water and drowns him.

Louis was a great Champion, Ali is the greatest.

Yeah, the likes of Ali and Leonard are difficult to pick against in these things. Big fight fighters.

Ali wins but it would be a very good fight. Ali got beat or had very competitive match-ups with the likes Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, Shavers, Chuvalo (unknown to be until yesterday), Norton and Spinks.

Louis was as good, if not better, than at least a couple of those names. Yeah Ali wins, but he doesn't have his own way throughout the whole fight. If they had a series of fights I could even envisage Louis winning or drawing on an occasion.

3fingers wrote:Ali wins but it would be a very good fight.  Ali got beat or had very competitive match-ups with the likes Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, Shavers, Chuvalo (unknown to be until yesterday), Norton and Spinks.

Louis was as good, if not better, than at least a couple of those names. Yeah Ali wins, but he doesn't have his own way throughout the whole fight. If they had a series of fights I could even envisage Louis winning or drawing on an occasion.  

Louis had a great record in rematches. I could see them splitting a series.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Strange how you say that but the likes of Louis and Hagler are beyond criticism, is little baby Haz starting to have a hissy fit.

Embarrassing young 'un. Do you not feel a bit weird typing that sort of thing?