Ali v Louis

First topic message reminder :

Found this interesting video of Ali and Cus D'Amato discussing how Ali would do against Joe Louis.

http://www.sportsviewlondon.com/ali-and-cus-damato-share-difference-of-opinions/

How do people think it would have gone?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Or maybe as Ali knocked out big beasts and a 168 pounder staggered Louis.............Would Louis lick the deck as soon as Ali landed  ??????..

Conn ran rings around this guy.... in his own words......... "Backed up...Made him follow me and punched straight"

And we think Louis gives Ali a hard fight.............The world has gone mad !!

Cooper put Ali on his arse....

And we think Ali gives Louis a hard fight........The world has gone mad !!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No but we can look at Louis record to see what he did struggle against.....

Lesser boxers than ali for one..

Thing is though Truss, if you are never really pushed complacency can be a big problem. How many great fighters loose fights they shouldn't because they weren't being pushed, Tyson is a very good example.

huw wrote:Ali should perhaps be the favourite but it would be an interesting fight between a fighter who is technically superb against a fighter who was technically dreadful yet still a superb fighter.

Would the clean punching and body work of Louis be able to catch Ali when he was leaning away from punches  and drop him a couple of times?

If he was caught would his superb heart take him through and push him to attack Louis on the front foot?

This is a fight that could have gone either way in a pick-em or be completely one sided to either man.

I admire the fact that so many people have a strong opinion either way but I am well and truly sitting on the fence for this one.

who knows exactly what happens when two great fighters meet....  I can see a situation where Ali might win fairly easily (although I don't believe it would be easy, I can see an argument as to how it might be)... but I can't under any circumstances imagine how louis could beat Ali in a one-sided fashion. He might drop him, but if shavers, foreman, frazier can't stop him I don't see how Louis is going to and the fighter who could beat ali easily on points hasn't fought professionally yet.

Scottrf wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Or maybe as Ali knocked out big beasts and a 168 pounder staggered Louis.............Would Louis lick the deck as soon as Ali landed  ??????..

Conn ran rings around this guy.... in his own words......... "Backed up...Made him follow me and punched straight"

And we think Louis gives Ali a hard fight.............The world has gone mad !!

Cooper put Ali on his arse....

And we think Ali gives Louis a hard fight........The world has gone mad !!

Like I said I could make a case for Kalambay beating Robinson.....About as much chance....

I'm just pointing out what nonsense it is to judge a matchup on one portion of a single fight.

No one is judging it on a single fight..........I could add Galento...Schmelling....Braddock and all sorts..

I'm judging it by...Bigger. Taller..Stronger...Better chin...Faster hands...Better jab.....Quicker feet...Durability...

Louis loses on all the main criteria..

Louis wins big on the rose tintedness criteria though.

Scottrf wrote:Louis wins big on the rose tintedness criteria though.

That's for sure....

Agree that size isn’t really a key factor here. The likes of Jones, Frazier, Lyle etc showed that you didn’t necessarily have to be heavier or particularly bigger than Ali to push him back or work him on the inside. Ali was no inside fighter or mauler so even when he had size / weight advantages he wasn’t one to utilise them to win a fight. Likewise, Louis’ problems didn’t tend to be caused by his opponent being bigger than him, and it’s hardly a quantum leap in size between them in any case.

Instead I just think it’s Ali’s speed, elusiveness, movement and durability which would be Louis’ undoing here. I think Ali is wrong for him in a fairly big way. The guys I’ve mentioned above gave Ali problems (and in Frazier’s case beat him) by not giving him room or time to think, muscling him and by forcing him to engage right in close, but Louis was more of a measured, methodical fighter and with his heavy feet and more slow-burning approach I’m not sure he’d really be able to get to Ali enough, assuming we’re talking about a pre-exile version. Needless to say Louis has a much better chance against the older, less frills Ali.

I just find it a lot easier to imagine Ali excelling against someone like Louis than vice versa. Louis’ best performances in my opinion were against Baer (both Max and Buddy) and Schmeling (the rematch I mean, of course), but they were polar opposites to Ali (Buddy Baer was really just a big, obdurate guy) and the fellas with blazing speed and nifty footwork such as Conn and Walcott gave him fits. Louis was so great that he was able to go 4-0 against them, but two of those wins were stoppages while behind on the cards and the other was a dodgy verdict. Strictly speaking, all that matters is the result but I think it’s a bit fanciful not to look at those things and be concerned about whether or not he could get away with it against Ali as he did against Conn and Walcott. Jersey Joe, superb fighter though he was, wasn’t in the same league as Ali, and Conn was no Heavyweight at all.

Appreciate that the Walcott fights came after Louis’ peak and that Ali had the odd rocky moment before he won the title (although I don’t think the Jones fight was as desperately close as a lot of others seem to), but even in or around his peak years Louis was made to look technically poor and generally average for full fights at a time more or less by the likes of Schmeling, Godoy and Conn. I just can’t see how a peak Ali, even if he did have to take a few licks which I’m sure he would, wouldn’t be able to exploit those weaknesses in Louis’ game and take a clear enough decision. Louis could hurt him and potentially put him down as others have said, but stop him? Not for me.

Max Baer froze against Louis.........Read the account of the match and they struggled to get him out of the dressing room..

They berated him in the corner like Atlas did to Moorer...couldn't get him to fight..

Poor example...

I know that, Truss. Just highlighting that the fight, regardless of Baer's state, is one of the best showcases of Louis' hand speed, fighting in close, combination punching and power.

Besides, I was using that point to highlight that Louis was more likely (in my opinion) to excel against guys who had bugger all in common with Ali, and hence he was unlikely to beat Ali for my money - so you should be happy, beefster!