Ali v Louis

First topic message reminder :

Found this interesting video of Ali and Cus D'Amato discussing how Ali would do against Joe Louis.

http://www.sportsviewlondon.com/ali-and-cus-damato-share-difference-of-opinions/

How do people think it would have gone?

Wow Cus still had it!

http://www.sportsviewlondon.com/ali-and-cus-damato-share-difference-of-opinions/

Initially, I went Ali. I still think Ali, but I've warmed to the idea of Louis winning. Ali was a brilliant fighter, but he was a bit lazy with his hands. This left him open to a struggle against guys with good left hands. Louis had a fearsome jab, and a big left hook. This to me presents an avenue from where he can set base on an assault. The second thing that had me favouring Louis a bit, was - and this will be pure conjecture - his record in rematches. A little bit of an extrapolation, but I think Louis improved when he understood his opponent. With 60s technology to analyse Ali and an intelligent enough trainer, he might not need two bites at the cherry to glean all he needs to know, just a lot of video tape. Ali is favourite, but if Louis comes with a good game plan, he can win. Problem is, Ali has such an iron will, and an iron chin (or at least powers of recovery), to go with his superiority as an athlete that I'm not sure it's enough for Joe.

Here Monte Cox beats the drum for a Louis win, and convincingly so if I may say so:

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/alilouis.html


Joe Louis may have had a slow gait, but was one of the fastest and most powerful jabbers in boxing history. Ali never knew how to block a counter jab, his right hand being out of position when he threw a jab, made him vulnerable to the counter jab. Jab Ali back while he's jabbing, punch with him, and his rhythm could be upset as Norton demonstrated.

Ali's tactic of leaning away from punches was considered suicidal by the old-timers as such a tactic could be exploited by a good feinter. By catching Ali coming back after leaning away from a feint, Joe could counter Ali with double impact! Against a right hand of Louis' speed and power, it would have been a highly dangerous manoeuvre.

Boxing historian Ted Carroll noted that 'Louis had one of the fastest right hands ever seen in a ring. It boomed out of his slow moving gait with the speed and suddeness of a rat tler.'

Murray Goodman described a Joe Louis assault like this: 'There were no warnings with a Louis punch. He would lash out like a cobra, and it could be just as deadly.'


Ali disliked pressure and Louis, as Goodman noted, was a 'master at cutting off the ring.' As with Foreman, Ali would be forced to go to the ropes. Louis would get him to the ropes with three steps using the jab but the 'rope-a-dope' would not work against Louis! To avoid being peppered by counter-punches, Louis would avoid throwing his left hook to the head and instead do what Norton did and bang to the body with both hands. Joe would put continuous physical and psychological pressure on Ali who would then begin to drops his hands. When Ali drops his right hand to throw the uppercut, Joe would deliver the knockout drops with his left hook! Joe could throw a triple left hook too, and was more explosive and quicker with his hands than Foreman or Shavers.

'All the blows in Joe Louis' arsenal were so perfectly and precisely thrown every time that you get the sense watching him, that he couldn't have been wild or sloppy if he tried.' --William Detloff in the 2004 Ring Almanac.

Louis also had 15 round stamina and kept his power into the late rounds. A faster and by far a more accurate and powerful puncher than Frazier was, he was the finest combination puncher in heavyweight history, and possibly the greatest finisher.


Food for thought.

 





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Good posts fellas - nice to see some balanced opinions.

Great footage Herman of this great Heavyweight, left hand, right hand Joe catches you and your in bother, arguably the best combination puncher of them all.

In any era Joe would give anyone problems, transport Louis into the modern era and with modern training, technology,diet etc. Joe at 6ft 2 would come into the ring 15 and half stone, so talk of modern Heavyweights being too big for him IMO are a myth.

Pleased to hear you enjoyed it, Nico.

As you say, this notion that Louis wouldn't cut it against the behemoths of today is preposterous imo. He'd murder Wlad but that's just my opinion. And he'd probably be around fifteen and a half stone today as you point out, which is much nearer the perfect size for a heavyweight than the super heavies.

Thanks Herman, great article. Might have swung my opinion to Louis.

The Ali myth grows greater with each passing movie.

When i lived in the USA, ESPN once had all the recorded HW titles end to end, till the proliferation of organisations, on one weekend. And the next weekend, all the televised Ali fights. I didn't go out!

It's always tough to relate fighters of different generations by Certainly, in my view, Louis is the #1 HW.

I can see why people think Ali, he had some great fights. But he had some stinkers. Chuvalo was a plodder and gave him fits. Cooper was a euro level SMW.

Louis had his 'bum of the month' title but that was the era and he never 'dropped his guard' and lost.

The article certainly makes a strong argument, one that is hard to fault.

Perhaps more telling, is the number of respected trainers that also thought Louis would win. So, claiming it would be a one sided shut out is just churlish. What do the 606ers know that Futch and Cus don't?

I'm being a cretin for no reason and I apologise

Ken Norton was knocked out by Gerry Cooney, Shavers and 188 pound Jose Luis Garcia. He arguably beat Ali three times. Anyone can criticise fighters. Conn, Cooper. Galento, Banks, Braddock, Young.

The points made above are well thought out and insightful.

Truss, saying modern HWs would beat him isn't the point. It was a different era. The question is, did he have the ring craft to beat Ali and, again, what do you know that Cus and Eddie don't? You're trying to say two of the greatest trainers in modern history are deluded to.

Cooper said he was around 12-13st and filled his pockets with weights, which is why he weighed in with a robe on. Ali got knocked down and beat him on cuts.

I'm on my way over to Didsbury, we can chat about it over a beer :-)

Joe Louis is great but Ali is the greatest. He would find a way to win.

Watch Ali vs Frazier again. Both guys past their best but showed so much heart. Louis was dangerous and Ali wouldn't have been lazy with Louis.

The best compliment I can give Joe is Ali would have fought at his highest level to get the win. He wouldn't have let Joe bully him.

As Haz mentioned already Ali and Ray Leonard were big fight guys. They rose to the occasion.

You want balanced point of view? Joe Louis was a superhero. He WAS the greatest heavyweight ever until Ali. Ali had a level,that few fighters could reach and he can find a way to win. Perhaps he could lose a decision to Louis but he would win a series.Both great gladiators and should be respected.

There are lots of valid reasons to give Louis a chance. 

There are plenty of old time trainers who think he was the greatest, their views have to be given consideration, they know the game, but they're human. They grew up revering Louis, like I have an affection for the 80's fighters I grew up with. It doesn't make their opinion gospel.

It's certainly true that Ali gets revered to sometimes superhuman levels, he had his Jones, his Frazier his norton. But then Louis got sparked by schmeling, dropped numerous times, had his tough close fights too, Godoy, conn, welch.

The idea that Ali had never met anyone who could feint before is fairly laughable. He had his technical flaws that everyone had a blueprint for, but only Frazier and norton really had meaningful success against. Were they in ali's prime. Louis, for all his undoubted ability spent plenty of time on his arse for a guy with untouchable technique.

I think with Ali, many take the view that in his prime (and arguably we never saw it) no-one really  got close to him. But then, other than the question marked Liston fights, did he fight real top tier guys when he was at his very best?

Ultimately, you can put whatever spin your personal preference  or inherent bias wants to.

I'm viewing what I've witnessed when both were at their  very best. For me, late 60's Ali was too mobile and fast for Louis. It's just an eyeball thing. Perhaps my lack of technical understanding renders my opinion worthless and he'd be counter-jabbed into submission. But my opinion it is.

Hold on, Cus had to say the things? it was the theme of the show. If he hadn't then it wouldnt have been much of a show? Ali takes this 8 out of 10. A less than stellar performance and louis takes more of the spoils.

Spot on post by Milky.

All the ancient coaches I know think the boxers of the last 30 years are not fit enough to share with lots of pre- 60's fighters - they're bias, plain and simple.

Most younger coaches respect the older fighters but have a little more balance, in my experience.

Happytravelling wrote:Thanks Herman, great article. Might have swung my opinion to Louis.

The Ali myth grows greater with each passing movie.

When i lived in the USA, ESPN once had all the recorded HW titles end to end, till the proliferation of organisations, on one weekend. And the next weekend, all the televised Ali fights. I didn't go out!

It's always tough to relate fighters of different generations by Certainly, in my view, Louis is the #1 HW.

I can see why people think Ali, he had some great fights. But he had some stinkers. Chuvalo was a plodder and gave him fits. Cooper was a euro level SMW.

Louis had his 'bum of the month' title but that was the era and he never 'dropped his guard' and lost.

The article certainly makes a strong argument, one that is hard to fault.

Perhaps more telling, is the number of respected trainers that also thought Louis would win. So, claiming it would be a one sided shut out is just churlish. What do the 606ers know that Futch and Cus don't?

You're welcome mate, nice to hear the article went down well.


I have to say that anyone who claims this would be a shut out should sit down and watch a few Louis fights. In most people's top two heavyweights of all time, quite how it could be a shut out is beyond me. But who knows!


Maybe Ali would double and triple his jab up and switch it from head to solar plexus and back to head again! Could Joe parry three jabs in succession?!? Let's reverse it. What are the things Ali could do to upset Joe's rhythm???...

Herman Jaeger wrote:Pleased to hear you enjoyed it, Nico.

As you say, this notion that Louis wouldn't cut it against the behemoths of today is preposterous imo. He'd murder Wlad but that's just my opinion. And he'd probably be around fifteen and a half stone today as you point out, which is much nearer the perfect size for a heavyweight than the super heavies.

My opinion also, Joe would have been far too technically gifted for Wlad. Joe's combination punching would have had Klitschko wondering what punch would be landing next.

milkyboy wrote:There are lots of valid reasons to give Louis a chance. 

There are plenty of old time trainers who think he was the greatest, their views have to be given consideration, they know the game, but they're human. They grew up revering Louis, like I have an affection for the 80's fighters I grew up with. It doesn't make their opinion gospel.

It's certainly true that Ali gets revered to sometimes superhuman levels, he had his Jones, his Frazier his norton. But then Louis got sparked by schmeling, dropped numerous times, had his tough close fights too, Godoy, conn, welch.

The idea that Ali had never met anyone who could feint before is fairly laughable. He had his technical flaws that everyone had a blueprint for, but only Frazier and norton really had meaningful success against. Were they in ali's prime. Louis, for all his undoubted ability spent plenty of time on his arse for a guy with untouchable technique.

I think with Ali, many take the view that in his prime (and arguably we never saw it) no-one really  got close to him. But then, other than the question marked Liston fights, did he fight real top tier guys when he was at his very best?

Ultimately, you can put whatever spin your personal preference  or inherent bias wants to.

I'm viewing what I've witnessed when both were at their  very best. For me, late 60's Ali was too mobile and fast for Louis. It's just an eyeball thing. Perhaps my lack of technical understanding renders my opinion worthless and he'd be counter-jabbed into submission. But my opinion it is.

Nat Fletcher - Dempsey bangs out Ali....


Ferdie Pacheco - If Louis fought Charles five years earlier he'd be a one round bum of the month..

Always good to listen to knowledgeable old timers...

Ali bigger, faster, better chin, durable....

But hey I can say kalambay beats Robinson by saying that he was awkward and technically gifted..

Bollox but hey....We can all dream like these Louis fans..

Prime Ali wouldn't lose to a cruiserweight

I kinda agree with Truss. Can't see anything but an Ali win. All these right attributes. Speed size chin intelligence mobility . Think Louis gets to ali a couple of times but it's an otherwise unremarkable and comfortable le decision for ali. Louis is bloody good but Ali is both bigger and better.

I think Norris v Taylor showed the difference ten or so pounds can make.....You know Ali will hit Louis and you know If Conn and others are anything to go by....you know he'll struggle to absorb it...

Just a slim punchers chance....You might as well pick Weaver to beat Ali If you're picking Louis..

He could bang too...

No chance..No way never...

milkyboy wrote:There are lots of valid reasons to give Louis a chance. 

There are plenty of old time trainers who think he was the greatest, their views have to be given consideration, they know the game, but they're human. They grew up revering Louis, like I have an affection for the 80's fighters I grew up with. It doesn't make their opinion gospel.

It's certainly true that Ali gets revered to sometimes superhuman levels, he had his Jones, his Frazier his norton. But then Louis got sparked by schmeling, dropped numerous times, had his tough close fights too, Godoy, conn, welch.

The idea that Ali had never met anyone who could feint before is fairly laughable. He had his technical flaws that everyone had a blueprint for, but only Frazier and norton really had meaningful success against. Were they in ali's prime. Louis, for all his undoubted ability spent plenty of time on his arse for a guy with untouchable technique.

I think with Ali, many take the view that in his prime (and arguably we never saw it) no-one really  got close to him. But then, other than the question marked Liston fights, did he fight real top tier guys when he was at his very best?

Ultimately, you can put whatever spin your personal preference  or inherent bias wants to.

I'm viewing what I've witnessed when both were at their  very best. For me, late 60's Ali was too mobile and fast for Louis. It's just an eyeball thing. Perhaps my lack of technical understanding renders my opinion worthless and he'd be counter-jabbed into submission. But my opinion it is.

I think you may be right. On balance, I'd probably send in the pre-exile Ali against Louis but it would have been one hell of a fight. I'm not sure why these things descend into one side basically slurring the other when we're discussing two great champions - two guys generally regarded as two of the best fighter of all time at any weight. History shows that when two great fighters meet at their best and in their primes - the result is usually a classic fight (rather than a whitewash as some have suggested).

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Strange how you say that but the likes of Louis and Hagler are beyond criticism, is little baby Haz starting to have a hissy fit.

You're not a journalist....So shut it...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I think Norris v Taylor showed the difference ten or so pounds can make.....You know Ali will hit Louis and you know If Conn and others are anything to go by....you know he'll struggle to absorb it...

Just a slim punchers chance....You might as well pick Weaver to beat Ali If you're picking Louis..

He could bang too...

No chance..No way never...

Ali of course outweighed Frazier by 10 pounds in their first fight. Frazier weighed 205. Louis around 200.

Frazier was also an animal who didn't let you breathe for a minute. Louis while good a cutting off the ring does it eventually. Take out the layoff for Ali and I don't think either Frazier or Norton can beat him. None of this rope a dope Poopie then. Strangely this might lead to him getting battered by Foreman and we're left with big George as the greatest of all time as he pulps everyone until Larry.

ShahenshahG wrote:Frazier was also an animal who didn't let you breathe for a minute. Louis while good a cutting off the ring does it eventually. Take out the layoff for Ali and I don't think either Frazier or Norton can beat him. None of this rope a dope Poopie then. Strangely this might lead to him getting battered by Foreman and we're left with big George as the greatest of all time as he pulps everyone until Larry.

Frazier was perpetual motion (in heavyweight terms) but Louis was also adept at cutting a ring down - he merely employed a more subtle technique.

That's what I said he does it well but he does it slowly. I don't think he could do that to Ali as effectively as he did to most of his opponents

I dont think size would have been a factor. Louis was on the smaller size scale for a heavyweight but easily able to fall into to 200-220lb bracket that I think is optimal for a heavyweight. He was also a hell of puncher that was well able to flatten big guys. I think it would nuts to write off Joe Louis against any boxer in history.

Well, if we're supposed to right off Louis' chances against Ali as he was only a 200lb fighter, then we might as well right off Ali v Bowe, Lewis and the Klitschko's as they all outweigh Ali at his best by about 25 to 30lbs.

Foreman didn't have the speed or the skills that Ali had so we might as well give him no chance against Valuev.

Seriously though, I'd pick Ali against Louis but not because he's bigger as I don't think 10 or so pounds would make much of a difference. Ali actually weighed in at 201½lbs for his fourth title defence against Cooper and 206 against Liston in their rematch, so I'm not sure why people think Louis was so small compared to Ali. Also, it's not as though we're talking about fighters from two massively different generations. Louis seems to be classed by some as some sort of old time fighter while Ali is seen as a modern heavyweight when in fact, only 15 years separates the end of Louis' reign to the start of Ali's reign. Ali is closer to Louis' era than he is to this era.

I pick Ali due to his speed and chin and it seems that Ali, style-wise, would give Louis problems with his movement. Even though Ali was floored by Cooper he generally had a good chin, which I think would help him withstand the punches from Louis. Fully focused, I see Ali winning on points.

Truss grew up watching Ali.

His childhood was more real than the ones that came before him. And of all future generations to come...

It's only natural he picks Ali.

Truss' interest in boxing piqued in the eighties in his teens and early twenties. That's why for him the eighties is the greatest era of all time or at least the one he's most fond of. His youth, his lost youth. But his youth is more real than anybody else's youth...

Just sayin'. 


(Of course the eighties was a great era though.)

Herman Jaeger wrote:Truss grew up watching Ali.

His childhood was more real than the ones that came before him. And of all future generations to come...

It's only natural he picks Ali.

Truss' interest in boxing piqued in the eighties in his teens and early twenties. That's why for him the eighties is the greatest era of all time or at least the one he's most fond of. His youth, his lost youth. But his youth is more real than anybody else's youth...

Just sayin'. 


(Of course the eighties was a great era though.)

I grew up in the 90s but I don't believe that era was the greatest. As a teenager I took Lennox Lewis VERY personally - bloody lived his career like I never will again but that doesn't mean you can't be rational about things.

Ali has been deified but even the greatest heavyweight ever had his faults, could be beaten. All great fighters can if they face other great fighters.

You are a rational human being though, Haz.

Atila wrote:Well, if we're supposed to right off Louis' chances against Ali as he was only a 200lb fighter, then we might as well right off Ali v Bowe, Lewis and the Klitschko's as they all outweigh Ali at his best by about 25 to 30lbs.

Foreman didn't have the speed or the skills that Ali had so we might as well give him no chance against Valuev.

Seriously though, I'd pick Ali against Louis but not because he's bigger as I don't think 10 or so pounds would make much of a difference. Ali actually weighed in at 201½lbs for his fourth title defence against Cooper and 206 against Liston in their rematch, so I'm not sure why people think Louis was so small compared to Ali. Also, it's not as though we're talking about fighters from two massively different generations. Louis seems to be classed by some as some sort of old time fighter while Ali is seen as a modern heavyweight when in fact, only 15 years separates the end of Louis' reign to the start of Ali's reign. Ali is closer to Louis' era than he is to this era.

I pick Ali due to his speed and chin and it seems that Ali, style-wise, would give Louis problems with his movement. Even though Ali was floored by Cooper he generally had a good chin, which I think would help him withstand the punches from Louis. Fully focused, I see Ali winning on points.

good points well made, i agree with it all.

I've waited years to be able to say that about one of your posts atila. It feels good man

How would Louis do vs Tyson. If he makes it past 6 rounds I think he would stop Mike.

Those 6 rounds would be brutal. I think Mike would ko him.

When I say Ali is better in all departments. ...It means I'm writing off Louis because he's smaller...No that's just part of it..

People are dumb. .

Louis is great but come on. Ali is the man. He would win.

Not in la la land.....

Don't forget it's the same posters who think little Joe takes the center of the ring against a marauding Foreman and owns him with his jab...

Of course he may have been rocked by a super middle but Foreman's bombs just bounce off..

Still they can't be proved wrong....So I think Azumah Nelson would beat Sugar Ray Leonard.

.About the same chance...

Joe Frazier could beat Joe Louis. Not saying he definitely would but he would stand a great chance.

Foreman beats Louis for me.

Think Foreman and Ali beat Louis fairly comfortably but Joe loses a lot more tHan he wins. Louis timing looked exceptional and Joe isn't the hardest to hit. Tough as nail but with no size advantage, no power advantage and a tendency to get hit by counter punchers with alarming regularity I can see Louis adapting and chopping Joe down late. That said again Louis footwork might count against him in this as both of the counter punchers Joe struggled with Ali/Buster Mathis could move pretty well. I think Louis vs Frazier and Louis vs Holmes might be the two juiciest matches in the top 10 outside of Ali vs Frazier.

Good post

Fight of the century Frazier gives peak Louis all he can handle. Close fight and I couldn't pick a winner.

I could see Holmes outboxing Louis but you'd think Joe would even it up at some point.

Always found it difficult to measure Joe in head to heads as most of the fighters hes measured against fought better opposition or had at least one fight against someone close to the top ten/fifteen.

The first boxing biography I ever read was on Louis. Always found it intriguing the lessons he learned from Jack Johnsons perceived mistakes. When I read unforgivable blackness I knew what he meant.

I can't understand how most of these boxing experts have Louis in the top 3 Heavyweights of all time, because judging on here most modern Heavies either box Joes head off or knock him out.

I'm sure if Louis was around with one of the modern day trainers today Steward, Futch the likes, they  would have him entering the ring at a trim 14st or is that Mickey and the Rocky films I'm getting mixed up with.

Holyfield can move up from Cruiserweight and make he's mark in the Heavy's, Toney can move through the weights from Middle to Heavy and challenge for a World title, but Heavyweight champion of the world Joe Louis would have been too small for the modern era, give over I'm not having it.

Thank god Joe never had to fight monsters like Tyson Fury and Price far too big for him.

Both of them used drugs to do it.

Well Drugs and Burger king respectively

ShahenshahG wrote:Both of them used drugs to do it.

Toney tested positive for a banned substance, can't remember Holyfield been caught, so Holyfield is allegedly.

Ali should perhaps be the favourite but it would be an interesting fight between a fighter who is technically superb against a fighter who was technically dreadful yet still a superb fighter.

Would the clean punching and body work of Louis be able to catch Ali when he was leaning away from punches and drop him a couple of times?

If he was caught would his superb heart take him through and push him to attack Louis on the front foot?

This is a fight that could have gone either way in a pick-em or be completely one sided to either man.

I admire the fact that so many people have a strong opinion either way but I am well and truly sitting on the fence for this one.

Or maybe as Ali knocked out big beasts and a 168 pounder staggered Louis.............Would Louis lick the deck as soon as Ali landed ??????..

Conn ran rings around this guy.... in his own words......... "Backed up...Made him follow me and punched straight"

And we think Louis gives Ali a hard fight.............The world has gone mad !!

Who in Louis record, is remotely close to Ali. He has longevity but fought no where near the caliber of Ali.

Lennox and Holyfield faced tougher guys.

Louis is number 2 and a mile off number 1.

On a h2h basis he wouldn't make my top 7.

AdamT wrote:Who in Louis record, is remotely close to Ali. He has longevity but fought no where near the caliber of Ali.

Lennox and Holyfield faced tougher guys.

Louis is number 2 and a mile off number 1.

On a h2h basis he wouldn't make my top 7.

So on the basis that Louis never had anyone around of the calibre of Ali means that he wouldn't have coped with that type of fighter? Maybe fighters like Foreman and Liston would have brought the best out in Louis in the way they did with Ali.

No but we can look at Louis record to see what he did struggle against.....

Lesser boxers than Ali for one..

Quicker......... Better chin.....Bigger...Taller...Longer reach.....

Pure fantasy to suggest he had anything but a puncher's chance and Ali beat bigger punchers..