England v Ireland, 5 September

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ENGLAND v IRELAND
5 September 2015
14:30 BST
Twickenham, London

Live on Sky Sports 1

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Touch judges: Romain Poite (France) Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

129 Played 129
74 Won 47
8 Drawn 8
47 Lost 74
1,484 Points 1,056

B. Recent Form

1 March 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
19 – 9 to Ireland

22 February 2014
Twickenham, London
13 – 10 to England

10 February 2013
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
6 – 12 to England

17 March 2012
Twickenham, London
30 – 9 to England

27 August 2011
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
9 – 20 to England

19 March 2011
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
24 – 8 to Ireland

27 February 2010
Twickenham, London
16 – 20 to Ireland

C. Teams

ENGLAND

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 38 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 22 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 15 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
09. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps)

01. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 32 caps)
02. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 23 caps)
03. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps)
04. Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 24 caps)
05. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 39 caps)
06. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 37 caps)
07. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 38 caps)
08. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 28 caps)

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 1 cap)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 22 caps)
18. Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
19. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 23 caps)
20. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 18 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 22 caps)
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 30 caps)
23. Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby, 1 cap)


IRELAND

01. Jack McGrath (St. Marys College/Leinster)
02. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
03. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
04. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
05. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster) (capt)
06. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
07. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
08. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)

09. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
10. Johnny Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
11. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
13. Jared Payne (Ulster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
15. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
18. Nathan White (Connacht)
19. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
20. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
23. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)

GeordieFalcon wrote:So are we all just making way too much out of it.

After all World Cup winner Steve Thompson wasn't the best thrower either....

My point precisely...The perception is that Hartley is better than Youngs - and I'd tend to agree overall but is he really? Hartley may not be overtly aggressive anymore but is still a penalty machine. Youngs frustrates with his giving away of penalties too, but he carries better than Hartley.

Or does he.....

Isn't Parling coming in for some game time really? He's probably the bench lock option but I don't think he'll be starting vs Wales or Aus.

Jimpy Hartley has been Lancaster's starting hooker so I guess he sees him as being better than Youngs.

We don't have the stats in front of us but the general perception is that Hartley is more reliable than T.Youngs at international level.

As for discipline, Hartley hasn't had nearly as many issues as at club level.

no 7 & 1/2 not sure, perhaps if the T.Youngs/Parling combo does well then Lawes or launchbury might be relegated to the bench.

I think it's smart that Lancaster has grouped the Saracens players together - 1 and 2, 8,9 and 10 on the bench.

Out of those Saracens players you would expect B Vunipola to start in the wc, maybe George can push but likelihood is the first few Youngs will start at least. Wigglesworth will be wanting to impress from the bench as Care is pushing again. Mako and Farrell nailed on for the bench.

Well, both teams are probably the strongest in terms of selection available to either coach. This also suggests that a win is more important in terms of confidence than the armchair punditry would care to admit. If the result didn't really matter to Schmidt, he wouldn't be risking his top players, and vice versa.

And a variety of media, including specialised rugby fare, also agrees.

Well nobody wants to get embarrassed. So yes, I'd say that in order to avoid an embarrassing defeat, Joe would be planning for and hoping for a win.

But he ain't no eejit and knows how tough a task that is against England. So when you plan a win, you probably only plan a win of a few points. So that kind of a game and that kind of an effort suggests a narrow loss is also something hoped for - if the win don't come.

A good performance. Obviously Schmidt, Lancaster and their coaches will be looking for things we aren't so even if we're disappointed at the end perhaps still a narrow loss is a lot learned.

A big loss is a lot ...of headaches and sirens......

Jimpy

It's more important that England win because England have the tougher group and tougher opening match, are at home.

If Ireland were opening against France or Italy then perhaps it might be different but they are opening against Canada.

Canada are playing Fiji this weekend so we'll see what happens there.....

Ireland can afford to start slowly. England cannot.

Also as we know England have a habit of starting slowly so it's even more important that England shake off their sluggishness.

Canada ain't no brush offs. They can cause issues. Any of these sides when the get valuable time together and get to the WC proper can cause a few upsets if taken casually and treated with complacency.

SecretFly wrote:Canada ain't no brush offs.  They can cause issues.

They looked poor in the recent Pacific Nations tournament, losing all their matches.

Canada are a physical team - don't underestimate, Schmidt won't

Secretfly

Let's be realistic - Ireland should thump Canada.

Canada are 18th in the world, Fiji 9th in the world - now of course rankings do fluctuate but that's a pretty significant difference! Only 1 ranking above Uruguay!

3rd vs 18th

6th vs 9th

I know Ireland struggled with Georgia a few years back but Schmidt's Ireland is well organised and should be able to deal with Canada easily.

Fiji are much more dangerous.

Can you see Fiji beating us? I can't.

When these sides that everone brushes aside in years leading up to WCs meet up and are in camp for extended periods and have the adrenaline pumping, beshocked - catching a Tier 1 Nation with their complacent pants down and perhaps not their best team on the field.............. things can happen. Nothing is written in stone.

One of these minnows is going to feck up some beautiful Tier 1 plans and dreams....

no 7 & 1/2 it's unlikely that Fiji will beat England but I would say that Fiji have more chance against England than Canada vs Ireland.

Secretfly

Depends on the team.

Fiji are dangerous and I think could cause problems for Wales,Australia or England if they aren't at the races.

Canada might cause Italy problems but Ireland? No I don't see it.

Ireland are a lot stronger than Italy.

USA or Japan might put up a fight vs Scotland and Samoa.

Not all underdogs are the same.

Fiji are stronger than Canada.

Chaos happens...it's only when you're prepared for it that you don't get caught out by it.

For my part, I've been thinking Samoa might be the dark horse here to upset some well oiled machines. But you never know. Be ready, is my motto. Treat all sides with respect or a few injuries and heedlessness has you gone before you started.

Secretfly not saying you should treat sides lightly. I am saying that you should beat Canada. You'll be the heavy favourites - that's the reality.

Canada up first is not a bad opener and is easier than most.

I agree a heavily loss against England wouldn't be helpful but I think a narrow loss is the realistic outcome.

It's probably more important that certain players don't get injured.

E.g. it would be a disaster for Ireland if Sexton is ruled out of the tournament for example.

We'll see how the decision of Ireland to play an extra warm up game plays out.

As for Samoa it wouldn't really be much of an upset if they beat Scotland would it?

Samoa having got through the pools is what I'm thinking of

Samoa will need to get past the "dark horses" Scotland first!

beshocked wrote:  Samoa will need to get past the "dark horses" Scotland first!

Twilight Ponies

beshocked wrote:Secretfly not saying you should treat sides lightly. I am saying that you should beat Canada. You'll be the heavy favourites - that's the reality.

Canada up first is not a bad opener and is easier than most.

I agree a heavily loss against England wouldn't be helpful but I think a narrow loss is the realistic outcome.

It's probably more important that certain players don't get injured.

E.g. it would be a disaster for Ireland if Sexton is ruled out of the tournament for example.

We'll see how the decision of Ireland to play an extra warm up game plays out.

As for Samoa it wouldn't really be much of an upset if they beat Scotland would it?

I'm amazed Sexton and POC are playing this one. Sexton could have got his game time in Ireland's first games and asking POC to play 9 games (potentially) in 11 weeks is a big ask.

These 2 and SOB are the players Ireland are significantly weaker without.

Agree spaynter. Seems an unnecessary risk. Perhaps Schmidt isn't planning of using Sexton and POC vs Canada.

Player management will obviously be important.

I know Secretfly thinks Canada are a side that should not be underestimated but personally I think Ireland needs to make sure that the key players are fit and firing for Italy and France matches.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Isn't Parling coming in for some game time really? He's probably the bench lock option but I don't think he'll be starting vs Wales or Aus.

You know I have a suspicion that Lancaster would rather have an in prime Parling than Lawes. I don't think Lawes is a great ruck man..he may hit them but don't think he's hugely effective there etc...whereas Parling in his prime offered the lineout option but also a guy who hit every ruck meaningfully.

spaynter wrote:

beshocked wrote:Secretfly not saying you should treat sides lightly. I am saying that you should beat Canada. You'll be the heavy favourites - that's the reality.

Canada up first is not a bad opener and is easier than most.

I agree a heavily loss against England wouldn't be helpful but I think a narrow loss is the realistic outcome.

It's probably more important that certain players don't get injured.

E.g. it would be a disaster for Ireland if Sexton is ruled out of the tournament for example.

We'll see how the decision of Ireland to play an extra warm up game plays out.

As for Samoa it wouldn't really be much of an upset if they beat Scotland would it?

I'm amazed Sexton and POC are playing this one. Sexton could have got his game time in Ireland's first games and asking POC to play 9 games (potentially) in 11 weeks is a big ask.

These 2 and SOB are the players Ireland are significantly weaker without.

Schmidt said POC insisted on playing (POC said he needed the game time as he felt he wasn't sharp enough).

Sexton also needs gametime. He didn't have a great outing against Wales.

SecretFly wrote:I've been thinking Samoa might be the dark horse here to upset some well oiled machines.

Fiji beat Samoa recently. I'm worried about Wales facing them.

This is POC's last campaign. He's ready for it knowing that (if lucky and he remains fit) he can let loose his entire career at the next handful of weeks. He's not really constrained by too many concerns about the future - his International career will be over and if the stories are true, Toulon pampers it's 'Statesmen' players - they don't have to turn up for full training weeks and are preserved as much as possible from the wear and tear.

So - if I were him, I'd be having the mindset of a final few months of total commitment and hardest combat. Provided he remains injury free and his gametime in managed, he'll last the pace

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I've been thinking Samoa might be the dark horse here to upset some well oiled machines.

Fiji beat Samoa recently. I'm worried about Wales facing them.

We've all been beating each other recently...what does that say?

The WC will happen when it happens. Who beat who recently won't be on anyone's minds.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I've been thinking Samoa might be the dark horse here to upset some well oiled machines.

Fiji beat Samoa recently. I'm worried about Wales facing them.

I'm not sure how full strength the Samoa team that they beat were, though - from memory, Samoa had several players still with their clubs and also hadn't resolved the rift between the players and the union.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Isn't Parling coming in for some game time really? He's probably the bench lock option but I don't think he'll be starting vs Wales or Aus.

You know I have a suspicion that Lancaster would rather have an in prime Parling than Lawes. I don't think Lawes is a great ruck man..he may hit them but don't think he's hugely effective there etc...whereas Parling in his prime offered the lineout option but also a guy who hit every ruck meaningfully.

 

But Parling doesn't scare the sh1t our the opposing 10 like Lawes.

With regard to hookers that can throw straight, Haywood is Hartley's understudy and at the end of the season before last was keeping Hartley out of the side. Bit like Youngs though in build, Saints don't srum as well when he is playing. Better than Youngs though in open play imo, fantastic hands for a hooker and very quick over 10m.

beshocked wrote:Agree spaynter. Seems an unnecessary risk. Perhaps Schmidt isn't planning of using Sexton and POC vs Canada.

Player management will obviously be important.

I know Secretfly thinks Canada are a side that should not be underestimated but personally I think Ireland needs to make sure that the key players are fit and firing for Italy and France matches.

Canada shouldn't be underestimated but if you replace POC and Sexton with Henderson and Jackson we're still better than them in the second row and at out half. We have the depth to mix and match a bit in the first two games. Pretty much all of our squad players who would make be in contention for their first team.

Of course we can't underestimate them, but we should still be able to win the game with some rotation.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Isn't Parling coming in for some game time really? He's probably the bench lock option but I don't think he'll be starting vs Wales or Aus.

You know I have a suspicion that Lancaster would rather have an in prime Parling than Lawes. I don't think Lawes is a great ruck man..he may hit them but don't think he's hugely effective there etc...whereas Parling in his prime offered the lineout option but also a guy who hit every ruck meaningfully.

 

But Parling doesn't scare the sh1t our the opposing 10 like Lawes.

With regard to hookers that can throw straight, Haywood is Hartley's understudy and at the end of the season before last was keeping Hartley out of the side. Bit like Youngs though in build, Saints don't srum as well when he is playing. Better than Youngs though in open play imo, fantastic hands for a hooker and very quick over 10m.

Id rather he scared the sh1t out of opposition forwards!

Well Planet Rugby have Ireland by 3 points. And they're not often far out with their predictions.

RubyGuby wrote:Canada are a physical team - don't underestimate, Schmidt won't

They have declined in the last couple of years. They have lost three in a row v USA a team they nearly always beat.

Jimpy wrote:Well Planet Rugby have Ireland by 3 points. And they're not often far out with their predictions.

espn have England by 3

I think England will probably edge it but even if Ireland win I dont think it means that much.

Bookies have England heavy favourites and that trumps ESPN and PlanetRugby for me.

England 2/5 and Ireland 2/1

PR have also helpfully published scores going back over the last 10 games at 5 games apiece. 6 of those games were in Dublin and England have scored 167 points to Ireland 164. Given the regime changes in recent years these numbers might not tell us very much but the two teams have been very evenly matched.

I think England will shade it. Doubt it'll be more than 7 points either way. Just hope it'll be a good game where everything looks ok and no injuries to anyone.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think England will shade it. Doubt it'll be more than 7 points either way. Just hope it'll be a good game where everything looks ok and no injuries to anyone.

Yeah I was thinking about this and Lawes's reputation. Maybe not the best game to play Sexton after all.

On a more serious note - of course this time last pre RWC David Wallace got the injury that finished a very fine career. Lets just hope we don't see anything like that in this match.

Yes no key injuries please.

Jimpy wrote:Well Planet Rugby have Ireland by 3 points. And they're not often far out with their predictions.

If England win by one they'll be only four out and totally wrong...

27-15 to the men in white who will be playing in red in the RWC - Simples

A tight win would be a bonus.  It won't be much of a win because of the warm-up conditions and teams saying they're only trying things out etc.
Having all players come through without serious injury is the key.  I think Ireland have played too many warm-ups.  Psychology plays it's part and the more you play the more you hope the performance mirrors the number of times you've played - as in getting better each time.  Ireland (and to an extent England) have been caught out in that no such clean cut progress has transpired.  
If well beaten in this game, then it'll be coloured as a needed game that will focus minds.  And it will focus minds - but perhaps the minds will focus on the negatives after so much training.  Maybe doubt will set in.  All players need to perform and keep the scorelines close for best results.  Win or loss then becomes a coin toss.  But performances and staying injury free is the primary concern

Gatland appears to have got the warm ups right, bag of mixed shoite v Ireland in Cardiff = Loss and Cull - Good win in Ireland and a strong team for Italy. So looking like a near perfect warm up which should lead to a comfortable exit in the group stage after defeats to Aus and England

I know there has been a lot of self flagellation for England after the loss to France but they do have some monsters up front and what we put out was a very rusty (if mostly first choice) pack. What I'd really want to see is some proof that the pack just had a bad day last week. Get some proper parity up front (maybe more) then an 'unlucky' narrow defeat might be tolerable, but I'd much prefer a lucky narrow victory...

They were poor at home too weren't they though ?

Yeah, I'd like to see some good quality ball for a good portion of the match to see what the midfield is like personally. By the sounds of it Joseph will be stepping in as first receiver for a portion of it and let Barritt do the crash ball and tackle. If it works against this quality Irish defence even I may be able to put my cynicism aside.

Predictions for tomorrow's match then:

England to win by 5-7.

Sexton to be injured and out of the RWC

A certain England player to be subsequently demonised by Irish fans everywhere.

The ref will be pants.

Roll on the RWC.

munkian wrote:They were poor at home too weren't they though ?

I believe the pack were, against the same opponents. (I haven't quite persuaded myself to watch either match). Whatever limitations the French have shown they do have one of the better packs. I am hoping that the reason is that the English forwards were not over their summer training and that there is a lot more to come. If not then we'll probably limp out of group A and loose with a whimper in the 1/4's

lostinwales wrote:

munkian wrote:They were poor at home too weren't they though ?

I believe the pack were, against the same opponents. (I haven't quite persuaded myself to watch either match). Whatever limitations the French have shown they do have one of the better packs. I am hoping that the reason is that the English forwards were not over their summer training and that there is a lot more to come. If not then we'll probably limp out of group A and loose with a whimper in the 1/4's

Obliviously that isn't the worst case scenario....

munkian wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

munkian wrote:They were poor at home too weren't they though ?

I believe the pack were, against the same opponents. (I haven't quite persuaded myself to watch either match). Whatever limitations the French have shown they do have one of the better packs. I am hoping that the reason is that the English forwards were not over their summer training and that there is a lot more to come. If not then we'll probably limp out of group A and loose with a whimper in the 1/4's

Obliviously that isn't the worst case scenario....

no - but I believe its the most likely 'worst case'

It is possible that Australia will show the kind of form that took them past NZ in that recent game, and that Wales will somehow muscle past us as well. But we seem to be a real bogie team for Oz and Wales winning in Twickenham is a very rare event, and I don't yet believe they have done enough to close the gaps shown the last two times we have met.

So I struggle to see us losing both matches and with the bits of the team that are playing well, the backline, I don't think we'll lack for points against the minnows. Hence the 'most likely' worst scenario will be to limp over the line in 2nd place on points difference