England v Ireland, 5 September

First topic message reminder :

  
ENGLAND v IRELAND
5 September 2015
14:30 BST
Twickenham, London

Live on Sky Sports 1

Referee: Nigel Owens (Wales)
Touch judges: Romain Poite (France) Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

129 Played 129
74 Won 47
8 Drawn 8
47 Lost 74
1,484 Points 1,056

B. Recent Form

1 March 2015
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
19 – 9 to Ireland

22 February 2014
Twickenham, London
13 – 10 to England

10 February 2013
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
6 – 12 to England

17 March 2012
Twickenham, London
30 – 9 to England

27 August 2011
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
9 – 20 to England

19 March 2011
Aviva Stadium, Dublin
24 – 8 to Ireland

27 February 2010
Twickenham, London
16 – 20 to Ireland

C. Teams

ENGLAND

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 38 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
12. Brad Barritt (Saracens, 22 caps)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby, 15 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 12 caps)
09. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 48 caps)

01. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 32 caps)
02. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 23 caps)
03. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 51 caps)
04. Geoff Parling (Exeter Chiefs, 24 caps)
05. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 39 caps)
06. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 37 caps)
07. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 38 caps)
08. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 28 caps)

16. Jamie George (Saracens, 1 cap)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 22 caps)
18. Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
19. Joe Launchbury (Wasps, 23 caps)
20. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 18 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 22 caps)
22. Owen Farrell (Saracens, 30 caps)
23. Sam Burgess (Bath Rugby, 1 cap)


IRELAND

01. Jack McGrath (St. Marys College/Leinster)
02. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
03. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
04. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
05. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster) (capt)
06. Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
07. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
08. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster)

09. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
10. Johnny Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
11. Dave Kearney (Lansdowne/Leinster)
12. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht)
13. Jared Payne (Ulster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
15. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

16. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
17. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
18. Nathan White (Connacht)
19. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
20. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
23. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)

Good game overall I'd say, we went a long way to addressing the problems of the last few weeks. Scrum and maul still isn't great but improved. Mainly just need Cole to get back to form and for who ever gets the ball at the lineout to stop slapping it down!

On the plus side Ford showed he worked really well as the only play maker, Youngs looked back to some of his best form and our backrow and back three were all out standing.

Any one know what Farrell did to get told off?

No 7&1/2 wrote:He threw well today given he was against one of the best lineout forwards in poc and Toner he was fine. All straight all on target for me no under or over throws that I can currently think of. Good challenges by Ireland yes but wasnt that down to the fact they re actually rather good?

They must have stopped challenging when George came on then!

The lineout should provide a platform for attacking ball, bar 2 mauls nothing came from Youngs' lineouts. There is no doubting his work in the loose but his set piece, including scrummaging is not good enough.

yappysnap wrote:Good game overall I'd say, we went a long way to addressing the problems of the last few weeks. Scrum and maul still isn't great but improved. Mainly just need Cole to get back to form and for who ever gets the ball at the lineout to stop slapping it down!

On the plus side Ford showed he worked really well as the only play maker, Youngs looked back to some of his best form and our backrow and back three were all out standing.

Any one know what Farrell did to get told off?

Lucky not be in jail, never mind told off, because that miss pass was criminal

yappysnap wrote:Good game overall I'd say, we went a long way to addressing the problems of the last few weeks. Scrum and maul still isn't great but improved. Mainly just need Cole to get back to form and for who ever gets the ball at the lineout to stop slapping it down!

On the plus side Ford showed he worked really well as the only play maker, Youngs looked back to some of his best form and our backrow and back three were all out standing.

Any one know what Farrell did to get told off?

I believe he (Farrell) got told off because he was trying to tell Nigel Owens how to referree the game.

HongKongCherry wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He threw well today given he was against one of the best lineout forwards in poc and Toner he was fine. All straight all on target for me no under or over throws that I can currently think of. Good challenges by Ireland yes but wasnt that down to the fact they re actually rather good?

They must have stopped challenging when George came on then!

The lineout should provide a platform for attacking ball, bar 2 mauls nothing came from Youngs' lineouts. There is no doubting his work in the loose but his set piece, including scrummaging is not good enough.

Just about to go back and poo poo that step by step but only recorded it from 27 min in so ill just say balls! Secured ball from a lineout when poc challenged Parling well 2min in but led to try. Didnt lose any ball scrum was iffy throughout just dont think Youngs will lose his place from that display.

majesticimperialman wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Good game overall I'd say, we went a long way to addressing the problems of the last few weeks. Scrum and maul still isn't great but improved. Mainly just need Cole to get back to form and for who ever gets the ball at the lineout to stop slapping it down!

On the plus side Ford showed he worked really well as the only play maker, Youngs looked back to some of his best form and our backrow and back three were all out standing.

Any one know what Farrell did to get told off?

I believe he (Farrell) got told off because he was trying to tell Nigel Owens how to referree the game.

owens was reffing the game? Looked like a free for all to me with only the TMO reffing

LondonTiger wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Good game overall I'd say, we went a long way to addressing the problems of the last few weeks. Scrum and maul still isn't great but improved. Mainly just need Cole to get back to form and for who ever gets the ball at the lineout to stop slapping it down!

On the plus side Ford showed he worked really well as the only play maker, Youngs looked back to some of his best form and our backrow and back three were all out standing.

Any one know what Farrell did to get told off?

I believe he (Farrell) got told off because he was trying to tell Nigel Owens how to referree the game.

owens was reffing the game? Looked like a free for all to me with only the TMO reffing

I thought he reffed well, generally!

Nigel likes it fast and loose, we all know this and it seems to work.

As to that "pass" what a nightmare to behold! Still think Cipriani should be there instead

Because England won today, does that mean that they go above Ireland in the world rankings?

majesticimperialman wrote:Because England won today, does that mean that they go above Ireland in the world rankings?

Dunno. If we'd gone for the try rather than the rather pointless (unless we were worried about injuries) kick out at the very end and got another 7 points, we would have gone 2nd though apparently. Wish we had, though if we had and Robshaw or Brown or Ford got injured I'd be swearing the building down

It was a horrible pass, but maybe he was just trying a little too hard to make an impression at that stage. A second play-maker almost certainly have prevented that by talking to Farrell and making it clear that through the hands would be sufficient.

Decent performance. The pack have been good for several years and so the France performance was always likely to be an aberration. Very pleasing to see the backrow bounce back so strongly. As for the scrums: I'm not too bothered by a couple of poor hooks. I think it extremely unlikely that England won't have one of the best scrums at the WC, given there are a couple more weeks to work on it.

Our outside backs are excellent - as good as any nation has (dropping May has done exactly what SL and Catt must have hoped it would do, because he looks superb). I just hope we'll be able to free them against a defensive line which is up quicker than Ireland's. Ford will be the most targeted man in the England side and if people start getting to him then well have a serious problem against the better sides.

Been on the Wales v Italy thread than on here. Any one know how Conna Murry is?

majesticimperialman wrote:Been on the Wales v Italy thread than on here. Any one know how Conna Murry is?

Joe said after the game he was fine, will go through the concussion protocols but will be fit for the World Cup. He also said Zebo and Sexton were just cramp and taken off as precautions.

Marshes wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Been on the Wales v Italy thread than on here. Any one know how Conna Murry is?

Joe said after the game he was fine, will go through the concussion protocols but will be fit for the World Cup. He also said Zebo and Sexton were just cramp and taken off as precautions.

Al though i am an English fan. I am glad to here that there is no long term damage to either player/s?

Maybe it was just me, but I think I England won this match quite easily and I thought the score really flattered Ireland. The two try's were rightly disallowed, but I was a bit dubious because I have never seen a TMO interve in this way. Even without that we left at lest 7 points on the pitch, on another day we would have been more clinical. England had all the possession and territory. The scrum and line out were a concern but I would be more worried if I was Irish, they offered nothing. Just kicked the leather off the ball.

Cumbrian wrote:Maybe it was just me, but I think I England won this match quite easily and I thought the score really flattered Ireland. The two try's were rightly disallowed, but I was a bit dubious because I have never seen a TMO interve in this way. Even without that we left at lest 7 points on the pitch, on another day we would have been more clinical.  England had all the possession and territory. The scrum and line out were a concern but I would be more worried if I was Irish, they offered nothing.  Just kicked the leather off the ball.

We're probably feeling like England felt after playing France last time ...and look how yis bounced back from there!

Our guys aren't up to speed yet and I think everyone knows at this stage how fit the English are at this point to defend their honour in a Home WC. Congratulations on the win. We'll suck in defeat and see what comes out the other end later down the line

It's not at all like England supporters to get carried away after a win...

or for someone to make sweeping generalisations

You're probably right SecretFly, good luck for the coming months!

Who is getting carried away Mickey? People seem pleased enough with the win, true, but that is only natural. It's not like England fans weren't highly critical of the performance in Paris when it was warranted (for the sake of balance).

No 7&1/2 wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He threw well today given he was against one of the best lineout forwards in poc and Toner he was fine. All straight all on target for me no under or over throws that I can currently think of. Good challenges by Ireland yes but wasnt that down to the fact they re actually rather good?

They must have stopped challenging when George came on then!

The lineout should provide a platform for attacking ball, bar 2 mauls nothing came from Youngs' lineouts. There is no doubting his work in the loose but his set piece, including scrummaging is not good enough.

Just about to go back and poo poo that step by step but only recorded it from 27 min in so ill just say balls! Secured ball from a lineout when poc challenged Parling well 2min in but led to try. Didnt lose any ball scrum was iffy throughout just dont think Youngs will lose his place from that display.

It appears we're not alone at disagreeing about Youngs' performance. The player ratings given in the various papers range from a 3 in the Grauniad to an 8 in the Indy!

Youngs struggled in both set pieces for me. He showed up well in the loose but George has looked much stronger.

A much more professional performance by England in a very tight game. Discipline improved immensely stopping needless and easy 3 points being given away. Had that not happened Ireland would have won fairly easily. Finishing tries under pressure remains a problem. Farrell butchered one obvious one and another not so obvious. May tends to over-run the passer and get himself in front on 2 or 3 occasions. He needs to sort that out. Overall a much better performance but more to do. Mike Brown must be close on the best 15 in world rugby. Simply outstanding. Ireland tried their high balls but they were snuffed out. Just.

LondonTiger wrote:

SimonofSurrey wrote: just about won our own ball at the lineout while barely threatening a single Irish one,   

Except the one we stole of course from Parling right in front of POC

Oops - good spot, Tiger, forgot about that one. But overall, I still felt Ireland generally were winning most of their lineouts (ok, apart from that one), while we avoided losing possession, often unconvincingly and with messy ball. For me, it still isn't working up front in set play. I can scarcely recall an England pack looking so wobbly in successive games against different opponents. Can't help but think that both Wales and Oz will be noting all this happily, but maybe with some surprise too: what to make of an England team that looks dangerous with ball in the hand, but struggles up front?

SimonofSurrey wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

SimonofSurrey wrote: just about won our own ball at the lineout while barely threatening a single Irish one,   

Except the one we stole of course from Parling right in front of POC

Oops - good spot, Tiger, forgot about that one. But overall, I still felt Ireland generally were winning most of their lineouts (ok, apart from that one), while we avoided losing possession, often unconvincingly and with messy ball. For me, it still isn't working up front in set play. I can scarcely recall an England pack looking so wobbly in successive games against different opponents. Can't help but think that both Wales and Oz will be noting all this happily, but maybe with some surprise too: what to make of an England team that looks dangerous with ball in the hand, but struggles up front?    

It was a warm up game, worry if our forwards perform the same against Fiji. Not one single team will be playing anywhere near 100% in warm up games.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Youngs struggled in both set pieces for me. He showed up well in the loose but George has looked much stronger.

Youngs has bulked up so much his arms dont work. No wonder he can't throw - he can get his arms above his head let alone chuck a ball!

George seems a better option from what i've seen but the worry with starting him is having Mako and Youngs in the scrum at the same time late on, we'd get crushed. If only Hartley hadn't been a naughty boy again, should still be in the squad but that's a different discussion altogether.

HongKongCherry wrote:It appears we're not alone at disagreeing about Youngs' performance. The player ratings given in the various papers range from a 3 in the Grauniad to an 8 in the Indy!

Weird there was so much variance about T. Young's performance. For me, giving him a 3 was a bit harsh, but a 5 seems about right.
On the other hand, the ratings I saw generally agreed Cole had another sub-par day in the office. I guess that shows how subjective this can be.

Ultimately, I thought this was a strong improvement from the last match, but still not at a level good enough to win the tournament.

It isn't the tournament yet, and for that reason I am not going to get too anxious until the first game we get against decent opposition in the RWC.

lostinwales wrote:It isn't the tournament yet, and for that reason I am not going to get too anxious until the first game we get against decent opposition in the RWC.

I do agree with you that it is the tournament right now. But to say i am not going to get anxious (untill some decent opposition in the RWC)

Do you not consider Ireland decent opposition?

majesticimperialman wrote:

lostinwales wrote:It isn't the tournament yet, and for that reason I am not going to get too anxious until the first game we get against decent opposition in the RWC.

I do agree with you that it is the tournament right now. But to say i am not going to get anxious (untill some decent opposition in the RWC)

Do you not consider Ireland decent opposition?

They are very decent opposition, as were the big mean gnarly French forwards over the previous couple of games, hence saying 'in the RWC'. I suspect there is more to come from England and the forwards in particular but they do seem to be working very hard to be ready for the kick off vs Fiji rather than right now. They seem to have been throwing a lot of technology over getting the conditioning right and it will be very interesting to see if it has worked

The only ratings I ve seen are from Stephen Jones so obviously disregarded them straight away!

Cumbrian wrote:Maybe it was just me, but I think I England won this match quite easily and I thought the score really flattered Ireland. The two try's were rightly disallowed, but I was a bit dubious because I have never seen a TMO interve in this way. Even without that we left at lest 7 points on the pitch, on another day we would have been more clinical.  England had all the possession and territory. The scrum and line out were a concern but I would be more worried if I was Irish, they offered nothing.  Just kicked the leather off the ball.

England left well more than 7 points on the pitch and were well up for that game yesterday.Ireland on the other hand looked as if it was a mere training run for them and with the easier apponents first up for us I can see why Joe wouldn't want us peaking too soon. England need to be two weeks ahead in readiness for the Wales and Australia games. The surprising thing was that in second gear Ireland were still very much in the game until the very end, something I wouldn't have expected with that performance.
That being said England are looking pretty ferocious and with a little tidying up can be very much the NH leading contenders for the tournament IMO.

I'd add that so far I have only seen the highlights but it was great to see Wood actually looking dynamic and powerful, even if he did make a complete hash of taking the ball in an offside position

I wonder how Madigan is feeling after being knocked back in to last week by Burgess? England nearly scored a try from that tackle.

englandglory4ever wrote:I wonder how Madigan is feeling after being knocked back in to last week by Burgess?  England nearly scored a try from that tackle.

i assume you noticed Burgess's other contributions which were rather less than stellar? The missed tackle, the knock on and the forward pass?

No 7&1/2 wrote:The only ratings I ve seen are from Stephen Jones so obviously disregarded them straight away!

As do I. Though when he scores a player highly that he usually hates you do wonder.

englandglory4ever wrote:I wonder how Madigan is feeling after being knocked back in to last week by Burgess?  England nearly scored a try from that tackle.

I don't know...how would you feel being knocked back by Burgess?

This idea that much smaller players should not be knocked back by a bulk of Burgess's size always draws a smirk from me. What would we have expected? That Burgess would bounce off him? Madigan has been hit harder than that and he'll be hit harder again.

SecretFly wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:I wonder how Madigan is feeling after being knocked back in to last week by Burgess?  England nearly scored a try from that tackle.

I don't know...how would you feel being knocked back by Burgess?

This idea that much smaller players should not be knocked back by a bulk of Burgess's size always draws a smirk from me.  What would we have expected?  That Burgess would bounce off him?  Madigan has been hit harder than that and he'll be hit harder again.

He has no interest in Madigan. Rather that was a continuation of his campaign to convince the doubters that Burgess is the greatest centre ever.

Burgess was pretty bad when he came on. He let us off the hook several times with basic errors. There is the makings of a fantastic rugby union player in there but this really is a year or two too soon.

Notch wrote:Burgess was pretty bad when he came on. He let us off the hook several times with basic errors. There is the makings of a fantastic rugby union player in there but this really is a year or two too soon.

Agree, basic handling errors, Twelvetreesesque but he does make yardage on the carry.

I think Wood was really good yesterday, nice to see him making yards

It amazes me how has been centres keep taking pops at Burgess. Guscott would hate to have his crown dislodged by a fantastic player like Burgess. Hence all the negativity. If only Farrell passed to him and not dummied we'd have seen a Burgess try.

Or he'd have knocked it on.Again

Odd thing about Burgess is that in League he had to catch the ball in traffic and run into the opposition and avoid the knock-on. That is one thing I would have expected would not be a problem.

Better to be a "has been" than a "never been"

Burgess will flourish when he has a single digit on his shirt.

The one quality i like about Burgess is he is always looking to offload in contact. I agree with doctor that his handling skills were the least problem i thought he would have.

Quality player though and will get better but too soon for him to go in big matches.

LondonTiger wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:I wonder how Madigan is feeling after being knocked back in to last week by Burgess?  England nearly scored a try from that tackle.

i assume you noticed Burgess's other contributions which were rather less than stellar? The missed tackle, the knock on and the forward pass?

I thought Tom Youngs forward pass was much worse. It cost us a try. Cole missed a tackle too. Oh and Ben Youngs let the ball just slip out of his hands with no one near. In fact all the Leicester players were less than stellar weren't they.

eirebilly wrote:The one quality i like about Burgess is he is always looking to offload in contact. I agree with doctor that his handling skills were the least problem i thought he would have.

Quality player though and will get better but too soon for him to go in big matches.

In league he doesn't have to worry about ball position for keep the ball protected at the breakdown. It's a big difference.

englandglory4ever wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:I wonder how Madigan is feeling after being knocked back in to last week by Burgess?  England nearly scored a try from that tackle.

i assume you noticed Burgess's other contributions which were rather less than stellar? The missed tackle, the knock on and the forward pass?

I thought Tom Youngs forward pass was much worse. It cost us a try. Cole missed a tackle too. Oh and Ben Youngs let the ball just slip out of his hands with no one near. In fact all the Leicester players were less than stellar weren't they.

With B Youngs, was that the sloppy short pass he did? Thought that was just a sloppy pass, not an actual fumble and it turned out ok. Or was it when he had the ball kicked out of his hands and we should have had a penalty, just like Care vs France?

Also good to see Billy back around!