PGA Tour: DeutscheBank Championship - TPC Bawston: Notes from the Ballwasher

First topic message reminder :

1).OK, Round 2 of the Play-Offs and we're well and truly into the Jason Day era/month. Fabulous performance from Day last weekend, McIlroy didn't show up and Jordan Spieth didn't like the course (Plainfield CC) and left early.

2).The kwini/Grumpy tandem were your on-course observers at Plainfield and it seems general consensus is that the course, while fabulous as a golf course, was tricked up for the Pros and tended to penalise shorter (actually, all but the longest) hitters. That's not good; there needs to be a balance and then "May the best man win". Changes required for the Barclays in 2020 please.

3).Europeans surviving included Stenson, Rose, McIlroy, Casey, Lingmerth, Knox, Garcia, Poulter, Cejka, Pettersson, Donald and Laird.
Lee Westwood goes home. In more ways than one if NBC Sports' report that he is relinquishing his Tour card is true. Apparently a divorce in his future too. Never like to see that happen, so good luck to all of his family.
The grass is not always greener on the other side of the lake; Lee never got his Major, may have messed up his life.

4).And good luck also to another awol European as Freddie Jacobson reveals that his young lad has undergone corrective heart surgery, thus explaining his absence since May. Freddie hopes to return for the Fry's.

5).In other action last week 24 web.commers earned their Tour cards. Familiar names include:
Patton Kizzire, by far the player of the year at the ripe old age of 29. Plus:
Pride, Lovemark, Pampling and the walking sickroom known as Steve Marino.

6).The web.com Finals commence next week - four good tournaments and usually compelling stories each week. It'll be interesting to see who competes, including non-Americans who might wish to give it a whirl.

7).CBS TV's PGA Tour season concluded with last week's Barclays action and they lost no time in parting ways with David Feherty. Imagine this will have a domino affect through the Tour's TV partners as Feherty is regarded as a leading talent, and not just because of his faux American, pro-US military lickspittle. (Humbling article with Peter Oosterhuis in September's Golf Digest, a reminder that a generation of US TV Golf commentators is moving on.) NBC's crew up for the rest of the Play-Offs.

8).Of all the courses where the PGA Tour pitches its tent, TPC Bawston has the least identity for moi. Partly the date, a holiday weekend here so sometimes tricky to watch, and partly the course - after all these years I can still only visualise the 18th hole. Chris Kirk won last year, beating Billy Horschel; birdies will fly in a New England heatwave, light winds likely to be the course's only defence.
Eleven Tour Pros have qualified for the DeutscheBank Play-Off event every year and here's a QUIZ:
WHO are the only five who have qualified also for every BMW Championship????

9).Sergio takes this week off for the second year running, Wilcox is injured, but 98 are expected to come under starter's orders on FRIDAY (the tournament plays Friday to Monday).
The PGA Tour maths class has got their calculators out and figured that Europeans in danger of not qualifying for the BMW in Chicago in two weeks' time will book themselves a place if they finish as follows:
Stenson, Rose, McIlroy, Casey, Lingmerth, Knox, Garcia are all in regardless.
Poulter needs to finish 30th to be sure of advancing.
Cejka 21st.
Pettersson 17th.
Donald 11th.
Laird 9th.

10).Slightly off base here, but very pleased to see Paul Broadhurst win his Senior debut last week in Scotland.
The Ryder Cup will always be my favourite sports event and Broadhurst was an unsung hero in Kiawah Island's heartbreaking defeat. Like Feherty and Lee-on-Solent's (OK Turnip?) Steven Richardson, Broadhurst made his one and only Ryder Cup appearance at Kiawah, but won his only Team match - a fourball carrying an out-of-sorts Woosnam - and his singles match with O'Meara.

The Ryder Cup's European qualification begins this week, in Russia for some unknown reason, and Bawston. Another unlikely lad will come through a year of qualifying, make the Team and be a hero - unsung like Broadhurst, or heralded like Dubuisson and others.

Jay Haas and Nick Price will be completing their Presidents Cup line-ups later today. Automatic qualifiers:

International: Day, Oosthuizen, Scott, Matsuyama, Grace, Leishman, Lahiri, Schwartzel, Jaidee and Danny Lee.

US: Spieth, Watson, Walker, Zach, Furyk, Fowler, Dustin, Reed, Kuchar, Kirk.

No idea who either Haas or Price will pick as Captain's Choices.
Intrigue on the US side seems to centre around: Will Haas pick son Bill?
For the Internationals, I hope Price will choose Ben An.

But the fact is that very few candidates have made a compelling case for inclusion and it's quite possible that Captains could dredge the depths of rankings to include Mickelson and/or Els.
Easiest choice for both would be to choose 11th and 12th on their qualifying lists: Haas and Holmes, Bowditch and An.

We'll find out soon enough.

i didnt see much of the golf at all but i watched a few holes on the back 9 and heard mark roe say i couple of times (before 16) that stenson was holing out "impeccably" when he knocked a 4 footer in. was he talking nonsense?

the only thing i find more annoying than the bababooie/mash potatoe etc is the offence that mark roe take to it and his insistence on talking about it repeatedly.

hend085 wrote:i didnt see much of the golf at all but i watched a few holes on the back 9 and heard mark roe say i couple of times (before 16) that stenson was holing out "impeccably"  when he knocked a 4 footer in. was he talking nonsense?

the only thing i find more annoying than the bababooie/mash potatoe etc is the offence that mark roe take to it and his insistence on talking about it repeatedly.

I find Mark Roe intensely annoying - full stop! I agree with Ray about Roe's comment re Stenson's poor shot into 16 and the wind. If it was "wind" it was only a little gust and not enough to knock a shot out of the sky to that extent. Stenson was just two clubs too short - sloppy play from someone with a 2-shot lead.

I do wish, however, that the TV companies could block out the inane drivel being shouted by the galleries in the US and, sadly, increasingly in Europe. I'm going to have to start watching with the sound off.

Mac - Thanks. O'Hair finally doing what I instructed him to do and shoot lower scores! He's safely onto the next round as they say.

Nice win for Rickie, but Stenson really had some bad luck there at the end.

Rory showing some form and I think Jordan is pretty much done for the year.

I really don't get what is wrong with hearing the crowd shout stuff out?

I'm sure you are just being your usual contrary for the sake of contrariness Mac, but the inane, assinine, moronic shouts from golf "fans" mostly in America have never been funny, are tiresome in the extreme and extremely unwelcome for the majority of the crowd and probably all of the players.

Super

I don't find what they shout funny but the only annoying thing about it is having to listen to the commentators bang on about it.

I have always thought that the crowd at a golf tournament should be offering out way more wind ups towards the players than they do. The bababooa stuff isn't very clever but at least the shouters are trying to liven things up.

I imagine the number of spectators/viewers the McLaren morons turn off is far larger than those who consider it livening "things up".

There's no wit associated with these d1ckheads, just announcing that they've got more voice than brains. Surely you don't fit that mould, Mac?

I wouldn't say they are trying to liven it up Mac, I simply think that they want to be heard, but that's Americans for you. They love a pointless and needless whoop and holler.

I'd have a sniper on hand to take them out to be honest.

kwini

Are you kidding. Do you ever read other peoples posts. Your question is answered directly above your last post.

My response was to your post Mac, daft as it was. Perhaps it's you that doesn't read the inanities that you post when you're a little bored?

"I find Mark Roe intensely annoying - full stop! I agree with Ray about Roe's comment re Stenson's poor shot into 16 and the wind. If it was "wind" it was only a little gust and not enough to knock a shot out of the sky to that extent. Stenson was just two clubs too short - sloppy play from someone with a 2-shot lead."

First, it was a 1 shot lead. Secondly, having watched most of the broadcast it was quite clear, and was mentioned on more than one occasion, that the wind was gusting up to 2 clubs' strength at times. Stenson was not the only one to be affected by it but extra mention is made because of the effect it had on him on the 16th, ultimately causing him to lose. Other players also were made to look a bit silly.

Lastly, I quite like Mark Roe and particularly his interaction with Rich Beem. More often than not I would rather listen to an ex tour playing pro than Denis Pugh and the other coaches wheeled out from time to time.

Kwini

As I said, its not funny and the comments made are not clever. But is it really such a big deal if some morons shout after a golfer hits a shot? It is a little like the spitting complaints we used to hear a lot of, the spitting isn't my cup of tea but the only person harmed is the perpetrator.

McLaren wrote:Kwini

As I said, its not funny and the comments made are not clever.  But is it really such a big deal if some morons shout after a golfer hits a shot?  It is a little like the spitting complaints we used to hear a lot of, the spitting isn't my cup of tea but the only person harmed is the perpetrator.  

So often they are done during someones shot whilst I'm sure you wouldn't think the perpetrator of spitting is the only one involved if you have to putt through someone's pavement pearl.

Eye,

Have to say I sit firmly in the lady putt camp when it comes to mark roe. I find his commentary about as inane as the bababui brigade. He's ridiculously sycophantic and never critical of players... A missed putt is always down to a bobble, a missed fairway an unlucky bounce, so Stenson's ball in the water couldn't have possibly been an error in Roe's world.

On the other hand I find Rich Beem pretty good, and radar Riley is fantastic. Only Riley has the insight and the balls to say that Fowler's "perfect" drive on the 72nd hole was lucky and probably not what he intended.

Presidents Cup Captains' Choices:
US: Haas, Mickelson.
Int: Bowditch, Bae

So: Both have chosen the 11th man from their respective qualifying lists.
Difficult for me to see why Bae gets priority over Ben An when Bae has played like a prune until the last fortnight.
Would think Mickelson is a good choice in the absence of any competition.

Let the games begin. In October anyway.

How on earth has Mickelson got a pick? He's not exactly in the form of his life and his matchplay record is hardly stellar

Bit of nepotism from Jay Haas picking Bill Haas.

Still one of the worlds worst golf competitions though.

who would you have picked instead? JB Holmes was next on the list and i dont think he has played well in second half of the season.
maybe Charley Hoffman? he did bottle it on Saturday though when in the lead and hes missed cuts in US and British Open.

Horschel, Hoffman, Kisner or Koepka perhaps.

To be fair to Bill Haas he was 11th on the points list so nepotism or not it's defendable.
Mickelson, who else would I have picked?! Any of the 19 other players on the points list between 10th and him at 30th?! 30th!
Hoffman being the obvious one in my opinion

Mickelson is a weird choice. Alongside 9C he's got one of the worst team matchplay records in American history.

Perhaps the viewing figures are more important than the event.

Mickelson is an obvious choice. Any captain would want him on their team, I'm sure Tom Watson really appreciated his support and advice during (after immediately after) the Ryder Cup.

I suspect that is a lot to do with it Super. That or the fact they've got him lined up for the captaincy soon.

In the Presidents Cup, a competition they always win and often by quite a margin, Mickelson still loses pretty much as many matches as he wins. Evidently his best ever finish in the match play WGC is to make the 4th round in 2004

Seems to be the biggest mistake that America make. They seem to think that having a big haul of stroke play majors makes you a shoe in for a matchplay competition. Where in fact, it's irrelevant.

For a number of years the European Ryder Cup team had 0 majors (or very few) but generally won most of the time.

True but that said, if he was winning strokeplay events I could at least understand an argument for including him. Good golf is good golf after all. But he's not even doing that, not even contending anymore! He's in because he's Phil Mick, can't see any other justification for it

I wonder if any of the US wannabes texted Jay Haas imploring him to pick them? I'm thinking about you, Webb Simpson.

It seems each captain chose their 11th man, plus one each for purely commercial reasons; Bae and Phil.

Actually, stroke play prowess is the only way to qualify for spots on these (professional) exhibition team events. So, it's hardly irrelevant. That said, were I a Euro captain, I would pick Poulter regardless of his current form or standing.

Shotrock wrote:Actually, stroke play prowess is the only way to qualify for spots on these (professional) exhibition team events. So, it's hardly irrelevant. That said, were I a Euro captain, I would pick Poulter regardless of his current form or standing.

Out of interest Shotrock, why would you?
In form or on the brink of form I get it. But if completely out of form and, frankly, a touch past it (as I suspect Mickelson is in terms of contending regularly), why pick him or Poulter? Just because they 'want it'? So do I, can I get a pick if that's the only criteria?

Unless Poulter's form drastically improves I actually don't think he will get a pick next year. Time will tell but I think he only got one last time because of history and he didn't play great then (zero wins?)

super_realist wrote:Horschel, Hoffman, Kisner or Koepka perhaps.

If Koepka wasn't in the team already (like most people I have no idea who is in the pres cup teams, I mean why would you?) then he should have been picked. He is clearly going to be the next American to enter the top 10 and will surely be a Ryder cup player next time around.



I do wonder what the point of the pres cup is? Does anyone actually care enough about it to watch it and does it make anyone any money? If not it should be left to die.

yeah i agree that Koepka would have been a good pick.
Horshel hasn't played well in ages and i haven't noticed Kisner on many leaderboards since his early season run.(i could be wrong though)

Shotrock wrote:Actually, stroke play prowess is the only way to qualify for spots on these (professional) exhibition team events. So, it's hardly irrelevant. That said, were I a Euro captain, I would pick Poulter regardless of his current form or standing.

Like I said, people count up the majors and think it means that they are the favourites for winning or a pick.

The best Ryder Cup players have very often not been in form (Westwood, Donald, Rose, Garcia, Poulter, Casey) and have/had no majors, yet have very frequently smashed the yanks with supposed better paper credentials.

You pick the players best suited for the job, not reputation, 9C and Mickelson have never fitted into that bracket.

Mac at his most disingenuous - it's OK Mac, most people over here don't give a damn about the Premier League or The Ashes; doesn't mean those competitions don't have their place.

Unfortunately, there's never been a competitive balance in the Presidents Cup and Jay Haas's selections, whilst understandable, will do nothing to give new candidates team match-play experience before the next Ryder Cup.

I would say that Phil has actually provided an invaluable "mentor" role in American golf these past dozen or so years. He takes young guys under his wing, often in Team matches. Doesn't make him qualified for this year's Team, but his role shouldn't be underestimated.

I suspect Tiger and Phil set quite a damaging tone in the US ryder cup teams of the last 15 years. I know Phil made a big deal about the most recent US thumping but like Tiger for much of his career it was clear that the Ryder cup was of very low priority to him. When Tiger and Phil turn up barely able to hide that the RC is a distraction from the task of racking up majors and other career records the other players are bound to lose heart.

Contrast that to the European team where the RC is what will define their careers as they have little hope of making a mark in the majors. You have one team playing to carve out their place in history and the other in an atmosphere of ambivalence.

Kwini

I may have made a false assumption so maybe you can help us understand how the Pres cup is followed in the US. Is it covered like a bigger PGAT event, a major, the RC or the John Deer? I really didn't think it was a contentious to hold the opinion that the pres cup was views as a bit of exhibition event that would not attract the very occasional golf fan in the same the RC and majors do.


I would also be interest to know how you think the players competing for each side view the event. Would either sides players care if the the Pres cup was never played again.

OK, I'll take the bait - would say that "away" Presidents Cup matches, given the time difference, are regarded about thesame, as you suggest, as the JDC.

Home matches an entirely different kettle of fish, below the Ryder Cup certainly, but probably on a par with most WGC's and the best Tour events.
But the Ryder Cup doesn't "attract the very occasional golf fan" here either, although interest ratchets up exponentially when the US look like winning.

Psyche in following sport in the US is completely different from my experience in Britain.

As for how the players regard the Pres Cup, I'd say Nick Price said it best a month or so ago, to the effect of:
"They say winning never gets old. Well, losing damn well does."
I would say the appetite among US players is high, but for the Internationals it is pretty low (except for those playing in their own country), but hopefully that will be arrested somewhat by the format tweaks that he negotiated.

Must - Just have a hunch about Poulter. He -- like his majorless Ryder Cup stalwart Monty -- really seems to rise to the occasion.

From my experience, Kwin, the Ryder Cup DOES attract the very occasional golf fan here in these United States.

raycastleunited wrote:Eye,

Have to say I sit firmly in the lady putt camp when it comes to mark roe. I find his commentary about as inane as the bababui brigade. He's ridiculously sycophantic and never critical of players... A missed putt is always down to a bobble, a missed fairway an unlucky bounce, so Stenson's ball in the water couldn't have possibly been an error in Roe's world.

On the other hand I find Rich Beem pretty good, and radar Riley is fantastic. Only Riley has the insight and the balls to say that Fowler's "perfect" drive on the 72nd hole was lucky and probably not what he intended.

Thanks Ray - and I agree with you, especially about Radar. Tells it like it is most of the time (although he did agree with Roe about the "gust" which I still don't see. I was watching the coverage and the trees hardly seemed to be moving, nor was the flag). I wasn't sure about Rich Beem but I'm warming to him. Loved his comment about going to see AC/DC a couple of weeks ago and what a blast he had - Roe's reply was "I went to the gym". 'Nuf said!

Not the last occasion Poulter didn't Shotrock!

And major less?! Monty is very proud of his 3 majors I'll have you, err, I'll have you, err, well, err, I'll have you know....

Eyetoldyouso wrote:First, it was a 1 shot lead.

Sorry - hit the wrong key on the keyboard.

If the 12th man pick is purely for commercial reasons, why not go the whole way and pick Tiger? He needs the Reps, and (whisper it quietly in super's presence) he has a strong record in this match play competition...

6 singles wins and remains undefeated
11 foursomes wins (only 1 defeat) the record points scorer in this format
One of only 3 players to win the max 5 points in a contest

Ray

I would go one step further and pick Justin Beeber. It isn't like you could harm the credibility of the event any further.

ray,
Not sure where you retrieved Tiger's Pres Cup stats from but Retief Goosen and Mike Weir have both beaten Woods in Singles Matches, hardly "6 wins and undefeated".

Woods is 24-15-1 at the Presidents Cup.
Don't forget the Americans use the format win-lose-draw, Ray

McLaren wrote:Ray

I would go one step further and pick Justin Beeber.  It isn't like you could harm the credibility of the event any further.  

Fowler's already there...

Then rather Justin Timberlake. At least he's scratch.

May have misinterpreted the data. I've never watched pres cup before so was relying on Wikipedia my source.