what's the point

I'm a non wrestling fan and I've always wondered why you watch it when it's all fake.

Is it the same sort of enjoyment some people get from watching soaps?

I'm not being funny here, just always wondered.

greengoblin wrote:when it's all fake.

It's what?

Prometheus wrote:

greengoblin wrote:when it's all fake.

It's what?

lol

I'm a screaming homosexual

Prometheus wrote:

greengoblin wrote:when it's all fake.

It's what?

I'm genuinely curious

I'm a screaming homosexual

Standard opening message to every convo...

Dr Gregory House MD wrote:I'm a screaming homosexual

greengoblin wrote:
I'm genuinely curious

This thread has gone in an interesting direction.

It's just a bit to of craic really.

People will spin you all sorts of Poopie on the defensive, story telling, athleticism bla bla bla but really it's just plain and simple fun.

Fire works, crowds chanting, hot girls, giant men throwing other giant men about after a bit of banter, wee bit of comedy thrown in - what's not to like?

Ent wrote: what's not to like?

The Ascension

I just watch it for the articles.

Dr Gregory House MD wrote:

Ent wrote: what's not to like?

The Ascension

Stardust disagrees

I no longer have any interest in wrestling. My wife hates anything to do with wrestling. She believes that its childish and people who watch it are children.

I only watch it to annoy her but get no pleasure from the shows anymore.

I always wonder if those that question wrestling for being fake do the same for films?
Whilst watching Avengers do they say:
'Well that's all a bit fake, gamma radiation wouldn't cause a man to gain superhuman strength brought on by his anger management issues, more likely his skin would start to blister and fall off whilst suffering internal organ failure and he'd die a slow and painful death'.

Okay, I'll play with a longer answer.

The OP says 'non fan', which could imply they've never seen wrestling or saw it and didn't like it. If it is the former, the easiest answer is, "try it". You don't need any special equipment, or training. Sign up to the WWE Network (are they on a free month, or is it £10 for a month) and you'll have access to all kinds of past shows you can try. You'll either like it enough to watch again, or you won't. If you don't like it, don't sweat it, we can't all like everything.

Okay, now let's deal with the word "fake". There was a lot of activity on Twitter recently, when UFC's Dana White described wrestling as fake. A lot of wrestlers posting pictures of scars and such saying "is this fake?". Personally, I find that a bit silly. We know what we mean by fake, but let's go through it.

1) Pre-determined. Not only is the winner of each match set before the wrestlers step in the ring, but how they win and when is also already established. But, here is the thing for me. I don't know any of that, as a viewer I'm not in on that discussion. Now, I might be able to make a good guess that the Champion might beat a newcomer. But that is a bit like me also thinking that Man City will beat Bournemouth, but I don't know for sure it will happen or by how many goals. And if you don't like the sporting analogy, well its a bit like saying Luke Skywalker will beat Darth Vader. Almost all entertainment we deal with (books, movies, TV shows, computer games) the ending has been written, but we want to see the story unfold and how it comes about.

2) Fake fighting. If a 20 stone of muscle guy punches you in the face 10 times in a row in real life you will be knocked out and a bloody mess. In a wrestling ring, that might leave the other wrestler woozy for a second. When you see one wrestler pick the other up and drop him on his head, then often the wrestler who will be taking the drop not only doesn't put up a good fight to stop this happening, but helps get into position for the move to be delivered.

When done well the latter is hardly noticable, unless you are really looking for it. And to come back to our Star Wars analogy. I know that light sabre fight is choreographed. I also know that the light sabres don't really exist, they are special effects. But I still suspend my disbelief and enjoy it in the moment.

To round this out we have to say two things. Firstly, the whole match is not pre-planned. So even a short match would have over a hundred moves, you can't choreograph that. So it is only the main parts of the match that will be agreed beforehand, with each wrestler working with the other (and maybe the ref) to put together the match on the fly. And secondly, while wrestlers aren't out to put their opponent in the hospital there is no way that being slapped viciously across the chest, or being dropped on your back from 10 feet, or many of the other moves they do doesn't actually hurt, however much training these guys have.

3) Exaggeration. You'll find a 12ft ladder described as 16 feet high, but would you even want to fall off a 12ft ladder? Steel stairs might not be solid steel, but they are still going to hurt if they hit you. You'll hear the commentator say "oh my god he's hit in the head" when the wrestler may have protected his face with an arm. Again, you go with the flow and buy into this, or you don't enjoy them.

Is wrestling a soap opera? Well, not really because everything in wrestling is building to the next fight, the stories are just there to set up the next match. And if you drift away from WWE then many of the wrestler organizations become much less story-driven.

But, as Ent says, its fun, its a form of entertainment. If you like reading, or watching films or TV, why not watch wrestling. I've no doubt that the vast majority of people who watch wrestling also watch real sports, and are also probably fans of contact sports such as the UFC, or boxing too. Of course they know the difference. They are different.

So to come back to the original point. Try it. I honestly don't think it makes you more grown up if you come to the conclusion that it is just for kids because it is fake. And no one who likes wrestling is going to force you to watch it or talk about it if you don't like it.

Thanks for the explanations.

Prometheus wrote:I also know that the light sabres don't really exist, they are special effects.

They don't? Way to ruin my buzz ahead of the weekend

gazzyD wrote:

Prometheus wrote:I also know that the light sabres don't really exist, they are special effects.

They don't? Way to ruin my buzz ahead of the weekend

It is kind of what Hero is saying too (much more briefly than I managed). I've had the same conversation with people who'd tell me that they love the fight sequences in the Bourne movies, then tell me they couldn't watch wrestling because it is fake.

Prometheus wrote:

Okay, now let's deal with the word "fake".  There was a lot of activity on Twitter recently, when UFC's Dana White described wrestling as fake.  A lot of wrestlers posting pictures of scars and such saying "is this fake?".  Personally, I find that a bit silly.  We know what we mean by fake, but let's go through it.

I don't think it is silly. Fake is often used as a pejorative by wrestling critics. Much of the attraction for fight fans of the UFC is the fact that it is meant to be the most realistic form of combat sport. MMA is meant to make other traditional forms of martial arts (TMAs) obsolete. However, like in all other combat sports there are rules, limits and precautions to protect the fighters. You are not allowed to elbow someone on the ground from a vertical, 12 O'Clock angle, you are not allowed to kick someone in the head while on the ground. You are not allowed to head butt or strike the opponent's groin etc. So it hardly comes close to a real street fight. In other words it is to a degree artificial. Yes the fighters truly hit each other. Yes opponents resist and defend themselves. In that respect it is a 'real' victory for the winner. But, like all sport it is an artificial environment where rules exist for the purpose of entertainment and fairness. MMA is an art form like other TMAs, in which fighters must succeed within the parameters set by the ruling commission. In this respect wrestling is no different. It is an art form - a performance in which the wrestlers can attain true skill within the set parameters.

Also labeling wrestling 'fake' does insult the very real injuries that occur frequently in wrestling. In many respects, I am conflicted as a wrestling fan. I watch wrestling for enjoyment, because I am entertained by it. But, the wrestlers who wrestle for my entertainment suffer genuine injuries, some of which are fatal. Yet, I still watch it knowing that most of these wrestlers are taking years off of their lives by wrestling every week, all year round. Yes it is the wrestlers choice. But, nevertheless we fans tend to treat wrestlers as commodities, to be enjoyed in their prime and discarded afterwards no matter what the consequences to them.

As wrestling fans we don't have to defend our passion. It's our hobby and we watch it for our own entertainment. Yet, I do think too many people dismiss wrestling because it has a reputation of being 'fake' without truly appreciating both the art of wrestling and the very real injuries and risks that come with wrestling. I watched an interview with Hulk Hogan recently in which he said his back problems stem from performing his leg drop every week for 20 + years. I never thought about it before. But, as he explained over time the impact to his spine of jumping in the air and landing on his butt delivering the leg drop takes its toll. A move as simple and as seemingly low-risk as a leg drop can over the course of a wrestler's career lead to serious problems later in life!

It is common for wrestlers to adjust their move set the older they get, because of the physical toll on their bodies. That's why Mick Foley adopted the claw as his finisher in order to prolong his career. The same is true of the Big Show with his KO punch. Wrestlers have to learn how to wrestle smart if they want to wrestle into their forties and beyond. So there are real consequences to wrestling, despite the fact that it is predetermined and the punches and kicks are pulled. For these reasons I'd like to see wrestling get more respect than it does by the mainstream media.

I think it is silly because (to take your example) Big Show's KO punch is not a KO punch. Its a complicit move where he hits his opponent with an open fist and he's not trying to KO him, just make it look as though he is. Like to go back to my analogy, in a "fight" in the Bourne movie they are trying to make it look good on camera, not hit each other. That doesn't mean that no stuntman / action actor has never got hit and had their nose broken, or other injury, but it's not real.

Finn Balor's finish of the double foot stomp from the top rope would legit break your ribs if he delivered it fully. But he doesn't he tries to give the lightest touch, rolling off his opponent who sells the finishing move. Undertaker doesn't drop someone on their head's during the Tombstone. Etc. etc.

None of that means that no-one has ever got hurt wrestling. Obviously they do, both in single instance injuries and the long term effecs of taking multiple blows, falls, etc.

But its fake. And I don't mean that wrestlers don't have to be athletes and the moves don't inflict pain and they don't get injured. But I think to claim anything else in an entertainment where the outcome is pre-determined and the personnel work with each other, more than against each other, to deliver their moves is silly.

greengoblin wrote:I'm a non wrestling fan and I've always wondered why you watch it when it's all fake.

Is it the same sort of enjoyment some people get from watching soaps?

I'm not being funny here, just always wondered.

Exactly.

Its basically a soap opera thst revolves around people being given an excuse to (theatrically) beat the crap out of each other.

The plots may be fairly simplistic, but for me they beat any real soap.


Also, if you are an actual wrestling fan, the matches can be well worth watching on their own, without any back story.

Another thing to remember is that while wrestling is "fake" insofar as the outcomes are predetermined, it is still potentially very dangerous...especially for the guys (and girls) that like to do high-risk acrobatics off the ropes, or those who specialise in hardcore style matches involving tables, chairs, ladders, barbed wire etc.

While they obviously train to avoid injuring themselves and each other, it only takes a small error to botch a move and have yourself, or your opponent end up in hospital.

Thats why I have a healthy amount of respect for wrestlers, even if it can seem contrived and silly at times...okay, quite often...

And to some extent wrestling is what boxing wishes it could be. There's not often enough real excitement around just how good a competitive bout it could be, they all seem desperate to add drama to everything.
Even that fight in Hull the two blokes went from friends to enemies just because they were matching up.

We've all seen the boring jab, jab boxing match. Or the ground-based UFC match. Hell, I even watched a dull 0-0 in football once and wondered how much fun it might have been if the ref had missed every hard tackle and one of the players had turned heel and tried to score against his own team!

So, when it works, it works well. And that's why we enjoy it. I've just watched the final of New Japan's G1 tournament. It's a stiff match. The knees and kicks look like they hurt. The multiple near finishes meant I didn't know who was going to win. I thought it was great.

In all honesty, if Dana White had wanted to go harder he could have done. He could have pointed out that Brock is a big man who's an unbeatable monster in WWE, but when he got in the UFC ring the last time, he found that he didn't like to be hit for real. And, even then, because WWE is scripted they could turn that to their advantage. Have his next opponent look like he proper connects with him. Doesn't mean that Brock wouldn't win that match, but it gives a chink for the future that commentators can play on that while Brock is suplexing his opponent he's all happy, but if you can be an Ali to his George Foreman and stay with him and tire him and get your own offence in you have a chance.

Prometheus wrote:I think it is silly because (to take your example) Big Show's KO punch is not a KO punch.  Its a complicit move where he hits his opponent with an open fist and he's not trying to KO him, just make it look as though he is.  Like to go back to my analogy, in a "fight" in the Bourne movie they are trying to make it look good on camera, not hit each other.  That doesn't mean that no stuntman / action actor has never got hit and had their nose broken, or other injury, but it's not real.

Finn Balor's finish of the double foot stomp from the top rope would legit break your ribs if he delivered it fully.  But he doesn't he tries to give the lightest touch, rolling off his opponent who sells the finishing move.  Undertaker doesn't drop someone on their head's during the Tombstone.  Etc. etc.

None of that means that no-one has ever got hurt wrestling.  Obviously they do, both in single instance injuries and the long term effecs of taking multiple blows, falls, etc.  

But its fake.  And I don't mean that wrestlers don't have to be athletes and the moves don't inflict pain and they don't get injured.  But I think to claim anything else in an entertainment where the outcome is pre-determined and the personnel work with each other, more than against each other, to deliver their moves is silly.

I think you missed my point (or I didn't explain myself very well). My point wasn't that wrestling is real or not fake. My point was the negative connotations that the word fake carries by those who use it to disparage wrestling. It's easy to use the word fake to dismiss wrestling as a legitimate art form. It also reduces the meaning of competition and winning to a one-dimensional idea of physically beating your opponent. We all know there are glass ceilings in wrestling where many guys try to break through it to reach the main event and stay in the main event. There is a lot of competition for places and success.

But even to use stunt men and the world of movies as an analogy, the actors who do their own stunts are always given more respect than the actors who don't. Take Tom Cruise and his MI franchise for example. Cruise has effectively made an entire franchise basically out of him one upping himself on every sequel where he performs bigger and more dangerous stunts. When fans know that Tom Cruise is prepared to do his own stunts and take a bump for the good of the movie they have more respect.

In the same way I think people who aren't fans of wrestling, would have more respect for the industry and the wrestlers if they appreciated the stunts and bumps that wrestlers took in their matches for the sake of the match. When I was in high school, my non wrestling friends wouldn't believe me when I told them that the blood was real. Because they thought of wrestling as 'fake' they thought all of it was. They didn't realize that wrestlers bladed and deliberately cut themselves to produce blood for the match. That's what I mean. It's too easy to say "yeah wrestling is fake" believing that none of what happens in it is real.

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