Leicester Tigers Thread 2015/16 A New Beginning Part 1

[Welly]

First topic message reminder :


2015/16 Senior Squad ATM:
Coaches: Cockerill (DOR), Mauger (HC), Hansen (Defence + Skills Coach), Blaze (Ass. Forwards), Murphy (Ass. Backs)
1/3) Ayerza, Balmain, Brugnara, Cole, Mulipola, Pasquali, Rizzo
2) Youngs, Ghiraldini, Bateman, Thacker
4/5) De Chaves, Fitzgerald, Kitchener, Slater
6/7/8) Crane, Croft, Fonua, McCaffrey, O'Connor, Pearce, Williams
9) Harrison, Kitto, Youngs
10) Burns, Williams
12/13) Bai, Loamanu, Roberts, Smith, Tuilagi
11/14) Benjamin, Betham, Camacho, Goneva, Thompstone,
15) Bell, Morris, Tait

2015/16 Development Squad: Oliver Byrant, Jake Farnworth, George Tresidder,  Will Owen

2015/16
Greg Bateman (Exeter)
Mike Williams (Warriors)
Mike Fitzgerald (Chiefs)
Opeti Fonua (Welsh)
Brendon O'Connor (Blues)
Peter Betham (NSW Waratahs)
Lachlan McCaffrey (London Welsh)
Jono Kitto (Bay of Plenty + Cheifs Development Squad)

Transfers Out 2014/15:
Paul Burke (N/A)
Phil Blake (N/A)
Neil McCarthy (Glous)
Tom Price (Scarlets)
Geoff Parling (Exeter)
Neil Briggs (Sale)
Julien Salvi (Exeter)
Pohe (USC)
Brad Thorn (Retirement)
Peterson (Glasgow)
Hamilton (Coventry)
Bristow (Wasps)
R.Williams (?)
Whetton
Hepetema (BoP)
Allen (Retirement)

[SirBurger]

Definitely a possibility that you would be one of the clubs in for him Welly...

[formerly known as Sam]

I'd have thought we'd go for another 8 rather than Symons. Given our coaches contacts and our scouting network's knowledge of France it must be cheaper to bring in a ball carrying back rower than it will to sign Symons who will be of interest to half the AP.

[Welly]

Slater to 8 Symons to lock was what I was thinking.

[SirBurger]

I personally think Slater should stay at lock. Symons would be a good buy for a lot of teams, but I hope he sticks with us, particularly as his brother seems likely to be joining us.

[formerly known as Sam]

Slater to 8 Symons to lock was what I was thinking.

I got that. I just think the coaches will be thinking of that and then looking at the wage cap and it might well mean Slater staying at lock and us signing an 8 is a better fit for the cap than us signings Symons and moving Slater to 8 full time. Cockers likes the as many locks as possible in the back row approach but he will also be wanting another prop and he'll need to be saving as much cap as possible for that.

If you has Symons, Kitch, Williams at 6 and Slater at 8 the pack would be massive and give us one hell of a lineout. We could probably do that anyway once Kitch or Fitz is fit again.

I can see Crane staying and us sticking with what we have or Crane going and us heading back to NZ for a back rower. Milne coming back and maybe Beckett who has apparently gone back to playing 6 again. Maybe a low key Championship or squad player signing just to fill out the squad.

[king_carlos]

Camacho is off. It's been confirmed in the Merc by Cockers. It pretty much states that Brady is a direct replacement. Interestingly Cockers is also very open about Brady keeping the number of EQP players high.

With a few academy boys going elsewhere due to lack of chances in recent years it has been noted that the number of squad players who are EQP has dropped a touch. Although the number in our stronger 23s has remained high due to the quality guys who are in and around the EPS.

If Brady is a direct replacement for Camacho then I wonder if we will sign a replacement for Benjamin as well if he heads off. Personally I'd like to keep him if possible. I know it's a risk but when fit he is a fantastic attacking runner. Plus with JPP, TV, Betham and Tombstone he could be rotated and used more in fairer weather.

To me Slater to 8 would be the end of his international aspirations. As such I'd prefer him to stay at lock. Plus he is a fantastic scrummaging lock which is so often overlooked these days.

[Welly]

Don't know about it being the end of Slaters England chances if he plays 8 for a bit TBH IMO it could improve his chances.

[formerly known as Sam]

I'd like to see Odowgu used as the Benjamin replacement. We have depth at wing and he has clearly got some ability. He won't be required that often and from that position we can drip feed him into the first team environment. The mistake we made with Lewington was the indecision over when to include him or not.

[king_carlos]

With Billy, Beaumont and Hughes on the horizon I just can't really see Ed getting a look in at 8. As seen on Sunday he can do a job there due to his carrying but really he was just doing his usual stuff that he'd do at lock but with a different number on his back. For Tigers playing him at 8 allows us to get our best players on the pitch due to the strength of our second row. For England all playing him at 8 would really do is take away his scrummaging from the boiler room.

Perhaps a stint there to show off his carrying pace a bit wider out more often could improve his chances at lock in the long run given that Jones wants ball playing forwards. If we get into the realm of signing another quality lock with an eye on Slates rarely playing there next year then it won't be just a short stint though. I really hope he finds his best form and gets a look in for the summer tour.

Odowgu has only just turned 19 so if we can keep Benjamin for a season it would be more ideal. Especially if JPP and Betham might cover 13, TV will cover 15 as well. I wouldn't be worried if Benjamin weren't replaced though given Catchpole can also cover there and wingers are easy enough to pick up if injuries strike.

[formerly known as Sam]

Age isn't that relevant for wingers. Particularly when they're stacked and only likely to play in the LV, A league and in an injury crisis. Odowgu played A league this season LV is only a small step up and as you say if we hit an injury crisis and we're struggling then we can find cover easy enough.

Benjamin is great when fit. He's just never fit and I'm not sure he ever will be consistently fit again. Which is a real shame.

Agree on Slater.

[king_carlos]

The current staff have shown before that persevering with injured players can definitely be worth it in the long term if they have the potential - Tait being the perfect example. Benjamin won't be demanding a big salary given his current issues and could be a real asset to the squad, especially in fairer weather.

Personally if he can get fit before the end of the season then I think it would be worth the risk. Give him a full preseason to get himself right then let him loose early season when the pitches are firmer.

[king_carlos]

Perhaps Odogwu has the physicality to step up in less crunch games... It would be a risk though IMO.

I'm no fan of the LV but if we have Roberts and Catchpole resigned plus some progression from guys such as Bryant, Milne and Wells/Maksymiw then it could be a decent season for.

Match some of the more experienced guys with younger guys and it could help progression a lot. Putting a Byrant and Roberts/Catchpole centre partnership outside a more experienced half back pairing from Harrison/Kitto and Burns/Williams/Toomua would be very interesting. Likewise if Wells/Maksymiw are promoted then getting them game time alongside one of the more experience 4 locks would be great.

Genge, McGuigan, Balmain/Cilliers, Barrow/Fitz/Kitch, Wells/Maksymiw, Williams/Croft/Lachie, Thacker, Milne
Kitto/Harrison, Burns/Williams/Toomua, Brady, Bryant, Catchpole/Roberts, Odogwu, Morris

A decent scope to give youngsters a chance whilst plenty of room for some R&R to the first team. That said this will all be thrown into crisis by a 15 strong injury list anyway so ignore my idle speculation...

[formerly known as Sam]

I don't think it's that much of a risk for a young winger to be playing. He's had A league time and as long as he can catch a high ball and make a tackle there's not that much he can do wrong. If we were talking about a forward then it'd be different but we had no issues putting a 16 year old scrum half in for his debut this season and that is a far more involved position and White is several stone lighter.

I'd just hate to see us in another Lewington situation where the young talent isn't getting game time and is sat behind a squad veteran who can't get into the first team unless there's an injury crisis or LV weekend. That doesn't benefit us at all. Plus there's plenty of scope to sign a short term loan deal should we be really struck with injuries.

If Benjamin is fit before the end of the season I'd like to see us give him a one year deal on the cheap. That'd be a risk worth taking and when fit he was very good.

[Welly]

Apparently cockers said that Benjamin has time to prove himself before end of season so still hope.

Personally I would rather see Odogwu loaned out to a championship side next season (rather than Loughbrough students as is case this season), a Season in the champs and the LV + a League will prob be best for him ATM. Lewington was 21 when he moved Odowgu is still protected somewhat by the Academy agreement, and he isn't coming off a season like Lewington had in the LV cup.

Onto comparision to White
1) Scrum half whilst more involved is far less exposed.
2) He is hardly several stone heavier than him.

[formerly known as Sam]

The RFU website has Odogwu at just under 14 stone. I'd be generous to say White is 12, can't find any online details after a quick search. So couple of stone easily.

I'd like to see more of our development players playing more Championship rugby but we seem to have fallen out with Notts. Doncaster have had several of our lads play for them but ideally I'd like to see us have a couple of Championship feeder options.

[Welly]

Shame South and Lions are national 2.

Should really be looking at sending more of the older development players to:
Doncaster
Nottingham
Moseley
Coventry

Esp @ 19/20.

[king_carlos]

Moseley will likely be going down from the Championship so would be league 1 along with Coventry.

If we are sending guys to Championship sides then IMO we need to be committing them to that side for the season but for injury crisis. I don't have a huge amount of understanding of how the contracts work but you here about players being 'signed on loan' by Championship clubs and guys who are 'dual registered' so can feature for either. Now the Championship is professional I feel that we should be committing more guys to Notts or Donny for a full season if they are in need of game time to develop - this is what I'd like to see happen with Tiz for next season. If they are 'on loan' then surely they can be recalled in case of a huge injury list?

At current it seems that guys are heading out to Championship clubs for a few games at a time without a huge commitment being made to them.

[Welly]

I'm all right with League 1.

Step up from Lions and South.

Like
18 to play @ Souths/Lions.
19/20 to play League 1/Championship.

agree about the full season would like to see next season:
Thacker
Evans
Douglas
Galletly
Odogwu
Povoas
Priestley-Nangle
Worth
Fred jnr
on loan in the Championship/League 1

Although i guess Mauger might want them to be training more with Tigers as opposed to Championship teams.

This is why a proper A league could've been so damn good.

Hopefully it starts to get talked about more with teams like Exter etc expanding squads.

[formerly known as Sam]

I used to like the old A league. Used to be some good games and it was free to enter. The shorter format doesn't help us at all. Maybe if they split the A season so that it had a winter break as well as breaks for the international periods. Though that would discourage dual regs with the Championship etc.

[king_carlos]

I'd happily see that sort of model with guys who are just moving from academy to development squads heading to South/Lions and more experienced development squad players and England u20 guys looking at significant Championship game time.

I'd add Hills/Hogan as guys who need plenty of game time next season to keep developing. Especially for props as we have recently seen what can happen if they don't get match time with Tiz, Brugnara and Sio stagnating a bit.

If Tressider and Farnworth are promoted to the senior squad then they may be good candidates for dual registration rather going out on loan. Will Owen could be in that bracket too.

At that young age guys just need to get on the field as much as possible to keep developing, in the absence of a proper A-league the Championship is very good alternative. Of course the difficulty with sending lots of guys out is that more will inevitably need to be recalled for A-league and injury cover, however with proper communication this has been managed in the past.

[king_carlos]

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Leicester-Tigers-v-Exeter-NEWS-Harry-Thacker/story-28860634-detail/story.html

This is an interesting wee interview with Cockers about Harry Thacker.

He still follows the current club line of 'I think he can be great at hooker or flanker' but he also openly admits that odds of him competing physically in the front row against the top end clubs are limited.

I'm also glad to read that the part accepting that due to his height there is only so much more bulking up that he can do. Too many players such as him these days lose their dynamism in the endless quest for bulk. Although I do very much question whether he is actually 92kg!!

[formerly known as Sam]

Cockers sums up the situation well. He's carrying the weight deceptively if he's only 8kg lighter than Tom Youngs. I doubt Cockers would exaggerate. There's no advantage for him to do so.

Agree with his point about Harry's tries. I hope Thacker takes Pearce's spot in the back row and we look at maybe another hooker.

[lostinwales]

Sounds like the right size for a scrum half

[formerly known as Sam]

Sounds like the right size for a scrum half

He was a flyhalf during the early part of his teenage years.

[LondonTiger]

Although I do very much question whether he is actually 92kg!!

I could easily have believed 90kg. While he is at least 5cms shorter than me, he is more solid than I was at 95kg (back row) and about the same as when I was at 100kg (hooker). He looks much slighter on TV than close up in person.

[LondonTiger]

Also congrats to CaptainEd, may only be two days with the squad, but a chance to make an impression.

[king_carlos]

Agreed there LT! Heading into the summer tour it's good to know he's in the shop window as well.

[Guest]

Would've been thrilled with Leicester picking up a 5-1 win before the game but couldn't help feeling a little disappointed that Exeter were able to pick up a potentially massive bonus point.

Slightly annoying that much of the media/social media chat is about the mistakes that Carley made that benefited Tigers and not the numerous ones he made against them. I'm genuinely struggling to see how Jess didn't pick up a red card for the tackle on Burns. Given that the ref decided that he landed on his shoulder, the rules are clear that it's a red card.

[formerly known as Sam]

Same player with a deliberate knock on as cynical as Burns in the first half, albeit further from the try line, as well.

Shame as it was a really good game of rugby at times and that's what should be discussed. Some great English talent on display and there's only some lazy comments on Manu.

[Welly]

Our Academy lads played well in the first U18 championship game for England beating Scotland.

Umaga and Yawayawa scoring tries highlights on RFU site.

[king_carlos]

The try from Yawayawa especially is a terrific individual effort. He always seems a live wire whenever he's on the field.

I hadn't realised that Levi Davis on the other wing was another academy lad though.

With Odogwu and George Worth in the development squad and a guy like Yawayawa in the academy there is some exciting back three talent coming through the ranks.

[Welly]

If only we had a proper A league set up could have a handy squad.

Hare in the rugby paper was calling for a proper home and away A league, IMO it makes sense allows our players to be trained and managed by the clubs.

And allows Championship sides to have a better idea of who they will have week in and out and maybe even allow them to develop there own youngsters.

[king_carlos]

Most the u18 boys are still with schools as far as I was aware anyway Welly?

It's a much broader point but the bigger issue that first needs to be sorted is the club vs school battle. Club rugby has gradually gained more of a foothold amongst the established 'rugby schools' but it has begun to lead to situations where guys play for their school on a Saturday and the their club age group or colts side on a Sunday. Given how developed guys are towards the end of school now it really can't be too healthy.

A proper A-league would be great if well devised but once in place there will always be the issue with an A-league that different clubs look to use their 2nd XV for differing purposes. If one club throws in a load of youngsters to get them experience and the other plays a side mainly made up of much more developed squad players needing game time then things can get messy quickly. In the tight 5 it can get dangerous even.

With 12 more professional sides in the second tier there should be scope for players to be able to find game time at the required standard for them to keep progressing. Personally I'd like to see Tigers follow a model such as the one you suggested in an earlier discussion where we'd look to send 18 year olds to South/Lions and then progress guys through League 1/Championship as they progress.

[Welly]

TBF A league games are played Monday so shouldn't have an affect on schools, Although was only thinking of using a handful of U18 in A league anyway mainly have it as Injury comeback, fringe players and players around 20.

18 I would like to have (unless really really talented) at the Leicester clubs, 19/20 either @Leicester clubs or brought up to championship if ready. A season or 2 with a championship club would help the younger players grow.

Then after that they would be brought up into an A league with more senior players to allow senior coaches to have a closer look at them.

That to me is the ideal pathway for English rugby on the whole.

 So for example I prob would only have White, Umaga and Yawayaga in the A league as regulars ATM (and to be fair they are already when it is on).

[king_carlos]

Agreed that would work well as an ideal pathway.

The A-league would require a lot of maintenance to prevent it getting messy though, hence it is an idea that is met with resistance from some. The differing ways in which sides use their 2nd XV is an issue that would need sorting for it to really work but is also one without an obvious solution.

Personally I'm happy for guys to be sent out to club rugby to prove themselves though. Players get scouted and fast tracked at a very young age these days which is great when it works out but I also can't help but feel that in a contact sport you see a lot of guys miss out on opportunities because they don't develop as quickly as others. If academies rate a 14/15/16 year old highly enough then they can of course offer them all the training and guidance to help them become the best player possible.

However I like the idea that those academy hot shots are then thrown back into club rugby with later developers who didn't catch the eye as early but kicked on in their late teens or early twenties. Throwing guys back into club rugby and away from the 'bubble' that academies can create is a great way to see exactly what they're made of and finding out if others are perhaps more worthy of further chances with a 2nd XV.

[king_carlos]

http://gfycat.com/OrderlySplendidBluebottle

On a different note - this is a lovely hit from Toomua on Kurtley Beale from the weekend. Please ignore the weird web address, someone sent me it and I promise it does in fact send you to a rugby video not a dolphin!

Toomua and Manu would be a very physical mid field. Betham, JPP and Tombstone aren't exactly push overs on the wing either.

There's certainly going to be some fire power in the backs next season!

[yappysnap]

Just seen the highlights of a couple of Tuilagis tackles against Exeter on the weekend, what a beast.

I think it's easy to forget just how good he was before the injuries, his (insane) physical style of tackling just isn't achieved by any other EQ player in the Prem. The second hit on Parling was crazy big, lifts him off the floor and is timed and executed perfectly (with nothing illegal).

How's his running game going? So far all I've heard from each game is his big tackles, has he had a chance to stretch his legs and make any breaks?

[LondonTiger]

It's coming together Yappy. He is breaking tackles and making ground with every carry, but biggest impact has been the space created for others either when used as a decoy or with some dinky offloads.

[formerly known as Sam]

The combination of Manu and Thompstone gives our back line real defence occupying ball carriers. Allows room for the fleet footed backs outside to attack space. Manu isn't fully fit yet but he is an X factor player, few can add what we brings to a back line. His passing game needs a little work and he still has a tendency to wander out of the defensive line looking for the big hit. Mauger is adding slowly but surely to his game. Give him another half a dozen games before judging him properly.

[king_carlos]

Judging by the interview he gives with the Merc today, which mentions he has another season on his contract, it sounds like Crane is planning/hoping to hang around. That might be us for number 8 next year with Fonau having another year left, Milne to potentially be brought into the senior squad and Lachie playing very well there.

If Pearce leaves then there's room for another but I can't imagine it'd be anything more than a 'rough diamond' or that sort of signing which fkaS has suggested. Perhaps Mauger/Hansen will have their eye on someone in NZ.

[Welly]

No If about Pearce leaving Carlos.

[king_carlos]

Cheers Welly - I meant 'with Pearce leaving' rather than 'if'... It's been a long day!

[LondonTiger]

well Manu in the England squad, but at least it is replacing Goode, so Wasps will lose Daly.

[formerly known as Sam]

I fear it'll feel like a game longer than 80 minutes on Saturday. I just hope they select Gopperth instead of Jackson. Daly being with England will probably mean a midfield combination of the Piatau brothers with Wade, Halai and Miller in the back three. That's still a tasty back like.

Makes sense Crane is around for another year. It'll be his testimonial year next season.

[king_carlos]

Going into a game against France Cotter might fancy Jackson on the bench covering 10 instead of Peter Horne.

The Wasps backs are very potent but our defence is looking solid so that isn't my main worry - I thought Betham was excellent in defence on Sunday which is very nice to see with Charlie Piutau likely opposite him.

My biggest concern is front row. If Marcos is concussed then we are in real trouble. Logo and Balmain look exhausted. I only hope that if Marcos is unavailable we see Genge fast tracked in rather than Brugnara starting!

[formerly known as Sam]

If Brugnara starts we'll need Kitch and Barrow in the second row, Slater at 8 and Williams at flanker sat in behind him just to compensate for the lack of power. Thacker was incredible last week but we can't have him alongside Brugara up front.

[formerly known as Sam]

George Worth plays for England under 20s at 12 with Charlie Thacker at 13 and Odwugu on the bench. The Tigers article says Worth has been getting experience at Coventry.

[LondonTiger]

Youngs and Ollie Dodge the last time we provided both centres?

[LondonTiger]

Matt Smith for Manu, Mat Tait for Bell and Genge on bench for Brugnara are (I think) the only changes.

[king_carlos]

George Worth plays for England under 20s at 12 with Charlie Thacker at 13 and Odwugu on the bench. The Tigers article says Worth has been getting experience at Coventry.

I rate Worth very highly but as a 15 not a centre. Congrats to him but it really does highlight how the loss of Mallinder and James to AP action has hit this u20 squad.

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