Leicester Tigers Thread 2015/16 A New Beginning Part 1

[Welly]

First topic message reminder :


2015/16 Senior Squad ATM:
Coaches: Cockerill (DOR), Mauger (HC), Hansen (Defence + Skills Coach), Blaze (Ass. Forwards), Murphy (Ass. Backs)
1/3) Ayerza, Balmain, Brugnara, Cole, Mulipola, Pasquali, Rizzo
2) Youngs, Ghiraldini, Bateman, Thacker
4/5) De Chaves, Fitzgerald, Kitchener, Slater
6/7/8) Crane, Croft, Fonua, McCaffrey, O'Connor, Pearce, Williams
9) Harrison, Kitto, Youngs
10) Burns, Williams
12/13) Bai, Loamanu, Roberts, Smith, Tuilagi
11/14) Benjamin, Betham, Camacho, Goneva, Thompstone,
15) Bell, Morris, Tait

2015/16 Development Squad: Oliver Byrant, Jake Farnworth, George Tresidder,  Will Owen

2015/16
Greg Bateman (Exeter)
Mike Williams (Warriors)
Mike Fitzgerald (Chiefs)
Opeti Fonua (Welsh)
Brendon O'Connor (Blues)
Peter Betham (NSW Waratahs)
Lachlan McCaffrey (London Welsh)
Jono Kitto (Bay of Plenty + Cheifs Development Squad)

Transfers Out 2014/15:
Paul Burke (N/A)
Phil Blake (N/A)
Neil McCarthy (Glous)
Tom Price (Scarlets)
Geoff Parling (Exeter)
Neil Briggs (Sale)
Julien Salvi (Exeter)
Pohe (USC)
Brad Thorn (Retirement)
Peterson (Glasgow)
Hamilton (Coventry)
Bristow (Wasps)
R.Williams (?)
Whetton
Hepetema (BoP)
Allen (Retirement)

[Welly]

Sale haven't lost at home at all in the past year not sure where you got the one game from.

[formerly known as Sam]

Will Owen has had some game time for Doncaster Knights. Bryant had a handful of games for them at the start of the season as well.

I like the idea of an academy pre season league. Logical filler for the summer but I can't see it with the under 20 JWC being played annually.

[formerly known as Sam]

LT, given we're about to appoint a scrum coach I get the impression Cockers is gradually moving upstairs and away from coaching and will leave Mauger in full control. Something needs to change as this season started so well but has fallen away and we seem to be doing a passable impersonation of Gloucester currently.

[Jimpy]

Sale haven't lost at home at all in the past year not sure where you got the one game from.

Big deal, they were there for the taking on Sunday. Tigers should be made to train wearing knickers on their heads all week.

[Welly]

Sale haven't lost at home at all in the past year not sure where you got the one game from.

Big deal, they were there for the taking on Sunday. Tigers should be made to train wearing knickers on their heads all week.

Alright just correcting your facts.

[king_carlos]

Rugby inside line have posted on Twitter that Jean-Marc Doussain, the former France half-back, is weighing up his options between Gloucester and Tigers.

From a Leicester perspective my first thought would be meh.

Thought I'd add my thoughts from a Tigers perspective on this here rather than clog up the transfers page.

9.YBY, Harrison, Kitto; Tressider and White coming up
10.Burns, Williams, Toomua, Bryant and Umaga coming up

Both are well stocked and TBH I never really rated Doussain that highly. Either as a 9 or 10 he struggled to control games and lack the precocious talent of someone like Michalak who could pull something magical out the bag.

Capped half-backs tend to cost a fair bit even when fallen from grace, if that's the case I'd rather the cap be thrown at the front row.

[Welly]

He's talented just can't see the reason for it unless someone is leaving.

[king_carlos]

He's talented just can't see the reason for it unless someone is leaving.

Can't really see who would be leaving... Unless Harrison or Kitto feel they are deserving of more game time. For Kitto he's just had a few starts in a row which surely rules that out. Harrison could reasonable want a starting place at a fair few Jeff clubs but he's such a proud Tiger I can't see him leaving.

Burns has been playing some of his best rugby for a couple of year and his game is really kicking on.

If Owen were to announce he was heading back to a region it would be a killer blow but one I really can't see happening for next season. Especially when he's under contract because the pay-out that would be required to get him would be significant enough that Cockers et al would undoubtedly target someone more inspiring than Doussain!

[formerly known as Sam]

Also Owen Williams would be stuck trying to find a Welsh region given they all have Welsh international 10s in starting positions other than the Dragons who are a) terrible and b) have just signed McLeod which they wouldn't have bothered doing was Williams on his way.

This smacks of an agent trying to get more money out of Gloucester who are rumoured to be losing Laidlaw who has a similar style to Doussain.

[king_carlos]

Burns, Slater and BOC are all due back for Saturday according to the Merc. Lachie could be fit as well and JDV is reportedly back in full training.

If JDV is fit to start then I'd throw him in personally. Matt Smith looked knackered in his last appearance.

Ayerza, Thacker, Logo, Slater, Kitch, Croft, BOC, Fonau
Youngs, Williams, Tombstone, JDV, Manu, Betham, Veainu

Replacements: Bateman, Genge, Cole, Barrow, Lachie, Harrison, Burns, Goneva/Tait

I'd be wary of giving either of BOC/Lachie too much game time given how vital they are for the quarter final. Start one with the other on the bench to give the option of subbing the other off or adding more breakdown nous if needed.

[formerly known as Sam]

I doubt Fonua will start. We'll go for the more cumbersome Crane or move a lock to six, Croft to seven and play our openside off the back of the scrum. Who wants pack mobility...

[Welly]

Morgan had a good game today

With Evans looking the real deal at least as a squad player

In
BOC, McCaffrey, Evans and Thacker 7 should be fine for a while

IMO we need a new defence coach ATM, any Rugby Leavue coaches about?

[maverickmak]

I thought we'd need another flanker going to next season, but Evans may have just filled hole and forced his way into the 1st team squad for next season.

[LondonTiger]

Well, that was interesting.

Thoought the defensive organisation was an utter shambles, while too often Youngs, Williams, manu and Betham too often looked like strangers in attack.

However some of the play was exceptional and the young lad at 7 looked promising.

What was Ed's problem?

[formerly known as Sam]

He had a head assessment in the first half and then was holding his shoulder before half time. To be fair the backrow balance didn't work until we went with two open sides.

Our defence is a real concern. Are the issues due to Hanson arriving late (visa issues) and a lack of consistent selection or lack of ability? I was impressed when he guested on BT Sport. Intelligent and informed. We need a cohesive defensive line and some line speed. We have given the opposition half backs far too much time on the ball and that's hurting us.

[LondonTiger]

Thyere seemed to be no-one organising the defence. Far too many players ambling back into position. In first half Logo was the worst, but both Betham and Manu tended to hang around rucks too much rather than busting a gut to get into position - then we have a gap and someone like Cole trying to defend against hook and Trinder at the same time.


But the rugby we are watching is light years ahead of the dirge we had to put up with last season.

Also, I thought Owen Williams did not have a good game at all.

[king_carlos]

I haven't had a chance to see the game yet as I'm working weekends.

From the descriptions I've heard of our lack of cohesion in defence it sounds indicative of a 10-12-13 partnership who haven't started together before and a centre partnership who you could argue are out of position.

Betham is really a winger and whilst strong in the tackle has always been liable in positioning when playing centre, if anything his struggles with Manu at 12 might just represent how well Matt Smith did as the organisational rock at 12 for the first half of the season.

Manu has played most his rugby at 13 and has always had a tendency (although one he's increasingly controlled) to rush up out the line looking for a hit. If he is to play 12 long term he will need to keep learning to read the game better and his marshalling of those around him with need to improve.

As for Owen Williams, it sounds from everything I've heard that he didn't have a great game. Given he's recently back from injury, playing with a new centre pairing, a back 3 without much support for him in kicking/positional play and a scrum-half who by most reports also didn't have a great game that can probably be excused.

Given Hansen and Mauger came over together I don't think we'll see changes with the defense coach anytime soon. I'm happy with that too as I like the new staff and if given time with this group of players think that they will only keep improving.

[formerly known as Sam]

Williams looked good ball in hand but headless in defence and his kicking game was all over the place. He still inspires more confidence than Burns. I liked the Manu/Betham midfield combination though I do worry that neither of them seem capable of the Ant Allen defensive general role.

[LondonTiger]

I thought Williams kept changing his mind and allowing the opposition to get to close to our attackers, which I thought caused the Trinder interception and the first charge down. Second charge down from the 22m drop out - well that was just amateurish.

He was better in the second half when he started to play with a bit of oomph rather than trying to be too cute (which was our big problem in the last 12 minutes or so of that first half, from all players)

[formerly known as Sam]

I think the mobile back row in the second half allowed us to get much better quality of ball and gave our half backs more time. Given how big and nasty our tight five is (bar Thacker) our insistence on playing a third lock and Croft in the back row frustrates me greatly.

Perhaps if JDV is fit next week he can offer the midfield general we need and give Williams some guidance as at the minute I doubt very much any of the back line is offering any in game insight to him. Flood always used to champion the impact of Allen who would be studying the opposition formations etc.

[Welly]

Paul Grant and Agulla being linked to us

[Jimpy]

I think the mobile back row in the second half allowed us to get much better quality of ball and gave our half backs more time. Given how big and nasty our tight five is (bar Thacker) our insistence on playing a third lock and Croft in the back row frustrates me greatly.

Perhaps if JDV is fit next week he can offer the midfield general we need and give Williams some guidance as at the minute I doubt very much any of the back line is offering any in game insight to him. Flood always used to champion the impact of Allen who would be studying the opposition formations etc.

What a great signing he was, that's just what Tigers need, a 'mid-field General', with 4 games of the domestic season left....

[Welly]

He is what he is.

Signed in hope more than expectation, not his fault or the club's fault about his fitness.

Unless you know of a better player available to have signed in November.

Players certainly like having him around.

[Jimpy]

He is what he is.

Signed in hope more than expectation, not his fault or the club's fault about his fitness.

Unless you know of a better player available to have signed in November.

Players certainly like having him around.

He keeps the bench nice and warm, so why wouldn't they?

[Welly]

Sounds like Levi Davis has joined Bqth

[king_carlos]

I can only presume that with Odogwu and Yawayawa also coming through that Davis wasn't considered as good a prospect. It's a shame as he always look very potent as well, it would have been nice to have more academy backs coming through to the senior squad.

After the rumours that Boris Stankovich was returning for next season as scrum coach it has now been announced that he will be going to Coventry's revamped coaching staff for next season. Scotty Hamilton will incidentally be moving on but no news as to where yet. Perhaps that means Wig might be involved next season..?

Paul Grant is a solid number 8 with a fair bit of pace and good basic skills. He'd realistically need to be paired with Williams rather than Croft at 6 at Jeff level but could be a useful squad player. If I remember correctly he was also covering second row when with us as cover a couple of seasons back so offers versatility. Given he is a very similar style of 8 to Ed Milne it may suggest that Ed won't be promoted yet. I hope it's a case of him being given another year at Rosslyn rather than not wanted in the squad anyway, if a straight choice between him or Grant I'd take Milne everyday.

Ideally the only back row addition I'd currently want, other than promoting the likes of Milne, Evans or Owen to the senior squad, would be a huge signing at 8. There aren't any stand out names available though and there's unlikely to be the budget for it after sorting the front row.

[Welly]

Maybe Milne might be eyed up as Crane replacement for the season after)

Yawayawa and Odogwu seem to be more involved with the A league team than Davis, so i guess so.

[Welly]

If Grant and Agulla come we are looking at something like.
McGuigan ---> Ghilrandini
Cilliers ------> (?)
Grant -------> Pearce
Toomua ----> (?)
JPP ---------> Goneva
Agulla ------> Camacho
Brady ------> Loamanu

Leaving also
Loamanu
De Chaves
Bell

Out of contract end of season nothing announced
Pasquali
JDV
Bai
Aguero

Would replace those 6 with
Cilliers --> Aguero
Toomua -> JDV
Bryant --> Bai
Worth ---> Bell
Maksymiw/Wells --> De Chaves
Odogwu -> Loamanu
Hills/Hogan -> Pasquali

Would also look to add Evans, Thacker, Owen (?), Beckett, next season.

[formerly known as Sam]

I'd rather see us move to a more mobile backrow and use McCaffery and BOC as options there with Owen, Evans and Thacker stepping up at 7. Evans was a breath of fresh air on his debut and I'd hope he's retained around the squad because after Saturday he is there on merit. Thacker has been excellent all season. With our back line a heavy duty backrow just seems counter productive.

I think Milne and Grant would suit a more mobile backrow and we have a big nasty front five anyway with the options of Fonua and Williams to add additional muscle as and when required.

We need to get some of these young players coming through. It's the cheapest way to fill out the squad leaving budget free for big names. Plus we have a pretty good record at finding some star names who will be more inclined to stay if we have a positive record with developing our academy players.

[king_carlos]

I like the idea of a more mobile back row but frankly fear that number 8 is too key a position to not have a top signing in if we want to challenge for the title in Europe and Prem. Lachie is a terrific player but doesn't offer the carrying or power that the best all round number 8s offer, Fonau gives the power in carrying but little else if we are honest, Crane gives work rate and control at the base but little more this season.

I fear that come the possible semis and finals we will struggle against the top packs physicality with a big part of this coming from the power that the best number 8s give a side. This can of course be made up elsewhere, most notably for us at blindside if Mike Williams is fit, however it's a hole in the squad I can't help but feel will hold us back against the very best.

All that said there's little point of getting a top 8 if we don't have the platform to launch them from, to have that the front row depth needs sorting first. Once those signings are made we likely wont have space in the cap for a top 8 if one's available anyway.

[king_carlos]

Beckett is converting to TH I believe, Welly. As such it will be a bit before he's back in the frame for the senior squad I'd guess. For the caps sake we might not see both Owen and Evans brought straight into the senior squad either. One/both might be left in the development squad, then used as required.

I hope that on top of those you list we also see Genge come in long term and either Van Vurren kept on or another hooker brought in.

Is Rizzo in contract next season? I hope either he or Aguero stays as LH depth will be vital in extending the time left in Marcos.

Guessing at what we might have next season:

1.Ayerza, Mulipola, Genge, Rizzo/Aguero
2.Youngs, McGuigan, Bateman, Van Vurren
3.Cole, Balmain,
4.Slater, Barrow, Wells
5.Fitzgerald, Kitchener, Maksymiw
6.Williams, Croft
7.BOC, Thacker, Evans, Owen
8.Lachie, Fonau, Crane, Grant/Milne

9.Youngs, Harrison, Kitto
10.Burns, Williams

11.Thompstone, Veainu, Brady
12.Toomua, Smith, Bryant
13.Manu, Roberts, Catchpole
14.JPP, Betham, Odogwu
15.Tait, Morris, Worth

Red = Players who might be added to the senior squad for next season who aren't confirmed
Blue = Development/academy guys who could feature in LV cup (or more) but wouldn't necessarily need to be promoted for the coming season

Estimating in terms of cap: Toomua and Manu will be marquee signings I'd guess.

Goneva --- JPP = Straight swap
Camacho --- Brady = Straight swap
Leo --- McGuigan = Should free up some cap
De Chaves --- Wells = Should be some savings here
Bai --- Bryant = Should be a decrease in salary again
Pearce --- Grant/Milne = About the same
Bell --- ?
Loamanu --- ?
Benjamin --- ?

Other possible departures: JDV, Pasquali, Brugnara

By my estimation that leaves the cap increase (£1 million?) plus the freed up cap from Bell/Loamanu/Benjamin and possibly JDV/Pasquali/Brugnara. If Manu is a marquee signing next season then his salary from this year would also be freed up.

From the re-signings I’d wager that all of B Youngs, Slater, Thompstone, Burns and Veainu will be on more than currently to varying degrees. The other re-signings (Smith, Kitto, Catchpole and Roberts) should be on pretty much the same.

Re-signing Logo will be costly but worth it IMO. Genge will also be in demand, Cilliers salary isn't included in the above. That's a fair chunk of what's free used up there but spent in the right area.

There’s probably room there for another quite high profile signing (possibly a winger by the looks of things) and some squad signings/academy promotions - I hope one is at hooker so that Thacker can play at 7.

[Welly]

Beckett has been playing TH for Lions but he came on last Monday in the Aleague @ 6.

Logo isn't out of contract according to Leicester Tigers.

[formerly known as Sam]

Logo staying plus Genge and Cilliers and I'm happy with the prop situation. Two internationals on each side and then a good prospect as the third choice.

Carlos I agree. If there was a top 8 available I'd like to see us going in for him but there isn't. We've looked best this season with two open sides on the pitch and with both BOC and McCaffery having experience at playing 8 I'm much happier with that in our back row than shoving a lock on there. Our locks are good but when we have such a rapid back line they aren't going to cover the grass as well and we effectively play with only two back rowers. If we played a tight territory game it'd be worth it but we don't. Let's go mobile and keep our nasty tight five to stop the opposition forwards getting any joy.

[LondonTiger]

If we pack down with BOC and Locky (why do they use that shortening rather than Lachie/Lachy?), then I woudl want a bruising 6. However if we have a unit at 8, I like Croft at 6.


Logo has looked so...meh... these last couple of games. Unfit and uninterested.

[king_carlos]

Beckett has been playing TH for Lions but he came on last Monday in the Aleague @ 6.

Logo isn't out of contract according to Leicester Tigers.

I think that was more a case of keeping him involved and a lack of back row options with the injuries than anything. If he has been advised to move to TH it will surely have been discussed with the club, I can't see them then sticking him in the senior squad as a flanker. If he's going to convert then give him time to.

I thought that it was presumed by most that Logo was out of contract? Given Tigers don't usually release the length of contracts it is often guess work though. Has Cockers commented on it? Good news if so and would leave space in the cap as re-signing would have meant an increase.

LT - I'd say he's looked unfit and meh but not uninterested. His running has still been fearsome when he gets the ball at pace but due to the injuries he's doing it less often. I just think he's once again been played through injury due to necessity with Cole away and Baltrain struggling for form.

After Stade I'd like to see him rested for the Jeff run-in whilst Genge is still with us. I thought Balmain finally looked his destructive self again when he came on against Gloucs too. The bloke looks knackered.

[Welly]

Tigers said on Social media he was in contract for next season, along with Croft.

[king_carlos]

As for the Locky/Lachie/Lacky situation...

I'd just automatically gone to the spelling Lachie from the spelling of Lachlan. Now you point it out Lachie does sound nothing like his spoken nickname of Locky.

At least it continues the recent, original sporting tradition of players creating nick names by abbreviating one of their teammates names and adding ie to the end.

[formerly known as Sam]

I agree Logo needs rest and so did Balmain over the last couple of games. We've been short at prop and those guys have had to play a lot of rugby. Cilliers should help that next season and if we can keep one of Auguero or Rizzo as additional cover all the better.

A unit at 8 is fine if we've got two back rows who can get around after our back line in these dry conditions. I'm a fan of Croft but he isn't the type of flanker who can contest the breakdown and make dominant hits. If he's in the back row with Crane or Fonua our seven needs to be in form. If he's in a back row with two eights as against Sale we're screwed.

[king_carlos]

Tigers said on Social media he was in contract for next season, along with Croft.

I was aware of Croft being in contract but not Logo. Terrific news, especially considering that Cilliers and hopefully Genge will give us scope to rotate him more next season. I believe Cilliers can also play both sides which helps a lot with rotating props.

1.Ayerza, Logo, Genge, Rizzo/Aguero
2.Youngs, McGuigan, ?Thacker?, Bateman
3.Cole, Balmain, Cilliers

In that we'd have 7 props who I think most would be comfortable with starting most Jeff games. For bigger fixtures we obviously want Ayerza/Youngs/Cole fit but those options compared to this season should give Marcos, Cole and Logo some MUCH needed rest over the season. Just add another hooker to give Wee 'arry a chance at 7 and I'm very happy with that.

[LondonTiger]

Has there been any confirmation that Ayerza is no longer eligible for Argentina?

[Welly]

Well the ARU said that they are not picking overseas players, and Ayerza acknowledged that.

[king_carlos]

A unit at 8 is fine if we've got two back rows who can get around after our back line in these dry conditions. I'm a fan of Croft but he isn't the type of flanker who can contest the breakdown and make dominant hits. If he's in the back row with Crane or Fonua our seven needs to be in form. If he's in a back row with two eights as against Sale we're screwed.

The back row issue is balance like LT says. BOC and Lachie/Locky/Mackies have worked great at 7/8 but without Williams fit we really lack punch in the back row, hence Slater playing blindside - I know he wore 8 but on attacking scrums has packed down at 6 then on defensive shoves shifted to 8.

Croft at 6 with BOC/Locky at 7 and a quality 8 who can carry dynamically and put a shift in elsewhere would be fine. Problem is that we don't have the all round number 8. It's why Pearce leaving is such a shame as he seemed to have good hands and be developing some breakdown nous on top of his carrying.

Gaining a quality 8 would probably mean losing one of Evans and Owen though - after Saturday it seems more likely to be Owen. Even if McCaffery is used mainly at 6/8 it would still leave BOC and in time Thacker (still think he'll end up there) ahead of them. If McCaffery is also used the depth would probably lead to one of the youngsters moving on.

[LondonTiger]

Well the ARU said that they are not picking overseas players, and Ayerza acknowledged that.

Yeah, but they announced the policy back in the summer, stating it was in immediate effect - then waived it for the WC. Mind based purely on hi sage they need to move on.

[king_carlos]

I was chatting the other day with an Argentinian rugby coach who worked in a volunteer capacity with the Argentina squad during the RWC - basically he was helping with guys feeling settled in different parts of the country as he has lived in the UK for a while.

We got onto the eligibility stuff and he says the official line is that guys playing outside Argentina won't be eligible. Marcos has also publicly accepted that.

However, he reckons that there still seems to be an undercurrent of speculation that certain players will be allowed as exceptions for this season at least. Basically because without certain players the side will really struggle to keep progressing in the Rugby Championship.

If that's the case and they do make exceptions then I wouldn't be surprised to see Marcos be one of the first it's done for.

[Welly]

Morris is off end of season.

[LondonTiger]

Morris is off end of season.

Not a surpise. Shame injuries kept him out just when he should have been at his peak.

[king_carlos]

A shame but not a surprise with Morris. His footwork and core skills were excellent, hopefully he gets back to his best elsewhere.

That explains why we are looking at another back three player such as Agulla I guess. With Morris gone TV and probably JPP will spend more time at full back.

Lewington please fellas!

[Welly]

Lewington won't happen

[king_carlos]

I can dream Welly

[formerly known as Sam]

Morris was terrific under the high ball. Someone will get a bargain if they can get him fit again.

I'd prefer us to be looking at the academy and Championship for 15 cover. That would be cheaper and then we could spend more on the pack. Tait and TV will be the primary options at 15 and I always liked Burns when he played there.

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