Tell us about your game today...

First topic message reminder :

Congrats Super!

We're you playing in the Scottish Champion of Champions at Leven this weekend SR? How did you do?

No LP, The Scottish Champion of Champions is the competition where the person with the best score in the Regional Rounds goes forward to. So probably about 18 guys in that event.
I had a poor first round in the Fife Champion of Champions so was nowhere near getting through to the National version.

Have you moved up here now then?

Not quite! We leave London on June 7th, drive to Fife (taking two cars) arriving on 9th and take possession of the new house in the Broom area of north Leven (about a mile and a half from Leven Links) on 10th. It's all systems go. It'll be easier once I've retired from work on 'May 20th.

First weekend this year I've played Saturday AND Sunday - feeling the aches today!

Sunday was first medal of the year. Nett 72 (CSS 70) and finished 2nd in my division (no one in C division broke nett par). Overall winner was Cat 2 player with a nett 63! Pleased with my own performance though apart from a FOUR putt from about 10 feet which scuppered my chances (putting was pretty good all day apart from that!)

Saturday saw our first club match of the season against Caversham Heath. Team won 5-1 and we won our match 3&2.

Interesting story though (at least I think so). the 4BBB matches now are played to 90% handicap difference off low player instead of 3/4.

This meant as we stood on 1st tee, the opponent who was low player in the group made some comment about how he was having to give me 14 shots. At first it was just good banter but he got more and more irritated as the game went on.

6th hole as I rolled in a decent putt for 4, nett 3 to win the hole, there was a small grumble.

On the 8th (long par3) where I had come up short then chipped to about 2 feet, my partner sank a long putt from the fringe and he was heard to mutter "well I'd rather lose to a lucky 2 than a 3, nett 2"

Final straw came on the 10th green where I sank a putt from only 3 or 4 feet for 5, nett 4 for a half and he addressed me directly saying he was feeling slightly cheated and asked my full handicap. When I told him he replied "a 24 handicapper shouldn't be able to putt like that"!

I didn't lose my cool, but told him I thought he was being stupid in that putting should (theoretically) be the easiest part of the game and anyone should be able to putt well regardless of handicap. The reason I'm so high is my long game is crap. He just didn't like that a high handicapper could actually sink some putts - but calling it after a 3-4 footer seemed bloody stupid to me!

My partner heard the exchange and as we walked the next fairway he came over and asked if I was OK .. my reply was "hell yeah, I just want to kick his a$$ even more now"!

I think he was just p!ssed that although he was playing off 8 he couldn't hole a putt to save his life

You should have asked him if he was sure his handicap was 8 and told him you'd expect an 8 handicapper to putt better than that

That would have been the perfect response super .. wish I'd thought of that!

If people are worried about getting beat by a massively inferior player then why enter that type of competition?

And I agree with super, as a low'ish single figure player I have only lost to a player with a 18+ handicaps a handful of times that I can remember. Once was sadly in the final of a season long handicap matchplay comp but in general even full difference is not enough to compensate for high handicappers huge inconsistencies.

Secondly why was the guy intent on ruing the day for everyone else in the group? Buckle down and take advantage when the 20+ handicapper starts three from the tee for a few holes in a row.

As I have banged on about many times people need to concentrate on having fun while playing golf for their own benefit and fostering an atmosphere that will attract a more diverse range of people to the game.

McLaren wrote:If people are worried about getting beat by a massively inferior player ......

Davie - Great story and congrats. I would have been tempted to ask why he continued to have you putt out those 3 and 4 footers since those are obviously in your gimme range!

Davie, was your opponent an elderly Scottish woman with a massive chip on her shoulder? And her playing partner a bloke from Troon who agreed with everything she said no matter how ridiculous?

Ah, the happy couple....

Took a new Callaway XR 16 driver out on demo on Saturday (am am so could hide in a team if it didn't work). Bit concerned at the length of the club (think it's 45.75" shaft) and effect on dispersion it might have (as I can be a bit all over the place with the big stick).

Started on our 14th and had 3 holes where iron off tee is the right call, so pulled the new bat out for the 1st time on 17. Crack, drilled it to 15 foot (260ish yard par 4) then proceeded to hit it long and straight pretty much everywhere. 41 points with two 3 putts and won the individual by one while our team came 3rd with 86.

I think the shop has a demo Ping G that I might try as well, but I have a feeling there may well be a purchase in the not too distant future.

A couple of friends have switched to the XR this year and both love it.... long and straight.

606V2 wrote:Tell us about your game today...

I had a nice walk...

Oh dear Davie, not too good then?

Played in thick rain on Saturday, that's snow for those of you wondering, and then brilliant sunshine albeit damn cold yesterday. Played relatively well considering the conditions and the aerated greens at our place.

No not great Grumps .. 2nd medal of the season and after playing well twice the weekend before my confidence was quite high (perhaps that was the problem). A couple of bad mental mistakes early on rattled me (I don't usually let that bother me) and then a 10 on the 9th hole (I hate medals)

Only thing to note about that was never be afraid to call "provisional"

9th hole has a pond just in front of the tee and I topped my drive straight into it. Thinking my only other place to drop would be in some scruffy stuff at the pond's edge, I declared I was hitting from the tee again. My playing partner asked if it was provisional (he said there was some dry spots in the pond despite the rain recently). I answered that I was playing 3 off the tee - and promptly pulled hooked left out of bounds leaving me playing 5 off the tee.

You know what's coming... I found the first ball within the hazard but it would have been playable. Maybe would have barely got it to the fairway but at least that would be been preferable to laying 5 on the fairway.

My thought process was that if I called the 2nd (and subsequently 3rd) ball a provisional and then found the first in a bad position the provisionals would have been void .. but I was forgetting that as long as the ball was in the hazard, even if it was unplayable, the provisional(s) would still be in play.

Schoolboy error

Davie

You were correct in your actions because you cannot play a provisional if a ball is in a water hazard: A “provisional ball’’ is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball that may
be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds.

Thanks - but what if I wasn't sure if the ball was in the hazard? Surely that's a time to declare a provisional? If I'd said I wasn't sure, hit a provisional (or two as it happens) then "found" the original in the hazard, but playable .. am I then allowed to use the first ball? Or because it was "found" in the hazard do I have to play the provisional? And if I "find" it in the hazard, but declare it unplayable, is the provisional still in play? I find this all a little unclear

I play a pretty loose provisional rule but will admit I have never looked up the actual rule. I have always just used it as a way to avoid walking back to the tee. I would let a playing partner hit a provisional regardless of the reason why the ball might be missing and therefore need to walk back to the tee.

Then if the original is found you just keep going with that and the provisional is out of play. I guess if you deem the original unplayable you would still have to go back to the tee.

Your final sentence is correct in general (a ball "found" negates the provisional) - but this can't be true if it is "found" in a hazard. That was one reason why you hit the provisional because you weren't sure if it was in the hazard or not

The question is, do you still have the option to hit the original ball from the hazard if you deem it possible, despite having hit a provisional .. or once the original is "found" in a hazard, does the provisional become the ball in play?

Davie, I have always played the ball found as the ball in play (in a hazard or not) and the provisional void.

Ask yourself the question, "did a provisional actually need to be played?". If the answer is no, then the provisional is void.

So yes, you have found the ball and there was no need to have hit a provisional. So play it out the hazard.

I was out playing yesterday. I was playing real poopie but managed to scramble to a 5 shot lead. No matter what I did I had unbelievable bounce backs from the trees, lucky breaks and all my putts went in. I already agreed with my caddie that with all this luck we should go out in town and pull real birds later that evening. I never had much luck in that part of the game before as I always took forever to line up the putter. At some point of time I thought I could walk on water like my savior, but to be 100% sure I tested it with one of my balls. As I defy science I thought it couldn’t be true when the ball didn’t bounce back up on the green for a tap-in birdie so I went a bit closer and tried again. But same result. I was suddenly 3 behind, and as we say in Texas: ‘3 shots and you’re out’ (unless you're on death row, then it's only one, hehe), so I thought that was it. And it was. Instead some English dude, who spoke a language I never heard of, ran away with the first prize, some ugly garment from a sweatshop in Bangladesh. Anyway, I’ll be back next year when I’ve fired my caddie and told TV producers to stop airing while I’m patronizing patrons and rules officials. Ciao.

The point of the provisional ball rule is not to give options. If there is doubt about whether the ball is lost in/outside a hazard, you can play a provisional. If the original ball is found the provisional is not longer in play. If the original ball, having been found is unplayable, you proceed under the unplayable rule which has 3 options and may mean that you have to go back to the tee. If it is found in the hazard, you proceed under the hazard rule which again may mean a trip back to the tee.

golfermartin wrote:The point of the provisional ball rule is not to give options. If there is doubt about whether the ball is lost in/outside a hazard, you can play a provisional. If the original ball is found the provisional is not longer in play. If the original ball, having been found is unplayable, you proceed under the unplayable rule which has 3 options and may mean that you have to go back to the tee. If it is found in the hazard, you proceed under the hazard rule which again may mean a trip back to the tee.

Thanks - that was the bit I was missing in my thinking. But although (in my mind) the ball was definitely in the hazard, I could have claimed I was unsure (maybe it had skipped onto dry land?). In that case, although maybe not strictly in the spirit of the rules, I could have declared a provisional, then when I found the ball in the hazard, decided whether to attempt to play it, or follow as you say, the hazard rule (and gone back to the tee). The first (and subsequent second) provisional would be null and void and I'd be going back to play 3 off the tee and not the 5 where my second (non)provisional eventually lay.

So if I understand correctly I *could* have done that within the letter of the law, if not the spirit.

And if you could persuade your playing partner / marker that it might be lost outside the hazard.

golfermartin wrote:And if you could persuade your playing partner / marker that it might be lost outside the hazard.

Asked elsewhere too and someone posted this...

7-2a/2 Provisional Ball Played Solely in Belief Original Ball Might Be in Water Hazard
Q. A player's tee shot might be in a water hazard, but clearly it is not lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds. The player announces that, since his ball might be in the hazard, he is going to play a provisional ball and he does so. Rule 27-2a seems to prohibit a provisional ball in the circumstances. What is the ruling?
A. The player did not play a provisional ball which, according to the Definition of "Provisional Ball," is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball which may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds. The second ball from the tee was in play since it was not a provisional ball.

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

So the first scenario matches my situation and I did the right thing. I *could* have claimed the second scenario (and my playing partner was pretty much amenable to anything - think he was already having pity on me - but I'd have felt uncomfortable claiming that when I was almost 100% sure it wasn't true

You could do all sorts of things in golf which would not be in accordance with the rules!

7-2a/2 Provisional Ball Played Solely in Belief Original Ball Might Be in Water Hazard
Q. A player's tee shot might be in a water hazard, but clearly it is not lost outside a water hazard or out of bounds. The player announces that, since his ball might be in the hazard, he is going to play a provisional ball and he does so. Rule 27-2a seems to prohibit a provisional ball in the circumstances. What is the ruling?
A. The player did not play a provisional ball which, according to the Definition of "Provisional Ball," is a ball played under Rule 27-2 for a ball which may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds. The second ball from the tee was in play since it was not a provisional ball.

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball
Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?
A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

The "no provisional ball in a water hazard" is a really dumb rule. Common sense says if you hit a ball near a water hazard, and you don't know whether it is in or not, you should play a provisional.

We have a local rule in place at our club that allows a provisional ball on the 10th hole. It's a 185 yard par 3 over a lake: reeds can obscure the view of the boundary of the hazard on the far side. If you follow the rules of golf, you would have to look for your ball on the far side before walking all the way round the lake back to the tee if / when you don't find it.

Davie - the objective of the provisional ball rule is to save time. Given that you topped it into the hazard right in front of the tee, I would have thought your first thought would be to see if your ball was playable.

Golfer Martin - If you had put it into a hazard 200 yards up the fairway then surely it would make sense to have the option of playing a provisional if there is some doubt as to whether the ball is in the hazard? Even though according to the rules you can't.

The tricky situation is when you lose a ball near a hazard. I remember playing a medal where I hit a blind drive round a dog leg. We couldn't find my ball on the fairway so it was reasonable to assume the ball must have kicked into the water hazard (it was a good drive but close to the water) so I was going to drop where it would have crossed the margin of the hazard. My playing partner however said that because the drive was blind we could not be certain it was in the hazard so I had to declare a lost ball and go back to the tee. I made sure I never played with him again!

raycastleunited wrote:Davie - the objective of the provisional ball rule is to save time. Given that you topped it into the hazard right in front of the tee, I would have thought your first thought would be to see if your ball was playable.

Agreed Ray - though when I say it was right in front if the tee it was probably 40-50 yards in front. I was already having a crappy day and couldn't be arsed to to walk even 40-50 yards to look

Pleasant if wet 4BBB friendly today. Course in great nick, greens better than I have ever seen them this time of year, and comparable to all but the very best I've just played on in Arizona.

Walking along 17 in a tight match, chatting to a pal, when bang! His umbrella blew out of its holder, and the bl..dy thing smacked right into my ear - point first! Very sore, blood everywhere, but glad it wasn't my eye! Feeling a bit groggy but got my par, before one of them rolled in a birdie to finish us off! Currently resisting a trip for stitches! Most unusual golfing injury of the year so far?

Blimey Puligny, who says golf's a low impact, non contact sport??

G - I reckon batsmans helmet with the solid sides is the answer. They'll all laugh, but what do I care!

Mixed bag on Saturday. First round of 2, trying to get in the top 16 for the matchplay stages.

6 straight pars to start (where I could play and score), triple, double, par, and 3 consecutive bogeys in the middle (couldn't play or score) then 1 bogey in the last 6 (couldn't play but scrambled some scoring). Must have had to hit 5 provisional but found all the first drives in various states of disarray/cabbage. Had a demo driver (Ping G) for the day and have an inkling that it may not suit me...

Very strange day of golf. Pleased to keep the round together but the triple-double combo had me floundering for a while. +9 = 2 over net and scraping in the top 16 at the half way stage. You can't win it on the first lap but you can lose it, which I didn't. I'll save losing it for next week

Monthly Medal on Saturday. Playing off 7. 1 under after 7 (2 birds and a bog) and playing well. Scores for 8th through to the 13 inclusive on Saturday.

Bogey
Bogey
Bogey
Bogey
Triple
Triple

Didn't quit despite complete talent meltdown and was 2 under for the back 5. 77 (7) 70 (level)

Won Silver net on countback. Then the really hysterical one.



Won gross.

Just think of how big the cut could have been then Roller.

Roller

You need to start clubbing up.

Well well, just as I begin to think things may be beginning to click Mother Nature kicks in and says "oh no you don't".
Played in our regular 13 hole Tuesday night roll up last night. Apart from knifing one out a bunker (less sand than expected) on the 3rd and ending up with a blob, I managed to get to 21 points after 9. I thought, this is more like it. Whilst there had been a bit of drizzle it started raining heavily just as we were coming off the 9th green. By the time we got to the 10th green the greens were more or less unplayable due to surface water. Ended up limping to a meagre 26 points for the 13 holes. Hoping that the front 9 is more of a sign of what's coming and that the last 4 holes were just an aberration caused by a torrential downpour.

One thing that did happen during the round which I'd like clarification on. One of my playing partners ended up in a hazard on one hole. The ball was playable in the hazard but... just out of the hazard on his intended ball path was a rather large but detached piece of gorse branch which he moved to the side before taking his shot. Penalty or no penalty?

Penalty.

Doesn't the DETACHED piece of gorse branch become a loose impediment that can be moved? (I'm no expert on the rules of golf)

No penalty in my opinion. As long as the gorse branch was not growing, or embedded, outside of the hazard then it can be treated as a loose impediment and moved without penalty providing removal would not unduly delay play. Inside the hazard, look but don't touch.

McLaren wrote:Penalty.

Why?

McLaren wrote:Roller

You need to start clubbing up.

Although one triple was, ironically, for going 2 yards long!!!

1GrumpyGolfer wrote:No penalty in my opinion.  As long as the gorse branch was not growing, or embedded, outside of the hazard then it can be treated as a loose impediment and moved without penalty providing removal would not unduly delay play.  Inside the hazard, look but don't touch.

I agree.

http://www.randa.org/RulesEquipment/Rules/QuickGuide/Relief-Situations-and-Procedures/Loose-Impediments

If both are in the hazard you can't move a loose impediment. Jas said it was outside but given they didn't know the rules did anyone actually check if the branch was definitely outside the hazard?

McLaren wrote:http://www.randa.org/RulesEquipment/Rules/QuickGuide/Relief-Situations-and-Procedures/Loose-Impediments

If both are in the hazard you can't move a loose impediment.  Jas said it was outside but given they didn't know the rules did anyone actually check if the branch was definitely outside the hazard?

I appreciate it's JAS asking for clarification on the rule, but I worked on the basis that it was outside because JAS said it was and he was there and saw the situation. I admit I have to assume that JAS knows the difference between being in and out of the hazard in question, but I think it's a fairly safe assumption.

Roller_Coaster wrote:

McLaren wrote:http://www.randa.org/RulesEquipment/Rules/QuickGuide/Relief-Situations-and-Procedures/Loose-Impediments

If both are in the hazard you can't move a loose impediment.  Jas said it was outside but given they didn't know the rules did anyone actually check if the branch was definitely outside the hazard?

I appreciate it's JAS asking for clarification on the rule, but I worked on the basis that it was outside because JAS said it was and he was there and saw the situation. I admit I have to assume that JAS knows the difference between being in and out of the hazard in question, but I think it's a fairly safe assumption.

Agreed. My interpretation of why JAS was asking, and I know I'm speaking for him here, is that the confusion lay over "on the intended ball path" and whether this was permitted. In my opinion, the loose impediment can be removed because the act of removing it is similar to the principles allowing relief for line of sight.

"Except when both the loose impediment and the ball lie in or touch the same hazard, any loose impediment may be removed without penalty."

From 23-1.

So as long as the impediment wasn't in or touching the hazard you can move it. Not sure what intended path has to do with it?

Well, if it wasn't on his intended path the question would not have arisen because he wouldn't have had to move the loose bit of gorse branch

Can't you move stones in a bunker? If so, why not any other loose impediment?

If it doesn't cause his ball to move, what's the problem?