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Congrats Super!

£300k doesn't go very far at all. If you add up the greenkeeping team, bar staff, office staff, kitchen team, cleaners etc you will get to 30 staff pretty quickly, so that only allows for £10k per person as a salary, and then you need to allow for pensions and NI contributions too. And what about insurance, rates, utilities. And I've not even got to maintenance costs for the course and clubhouse.

300k is only the money from the members subscriptions, it doesn't take into account visitors green fees, Opens, bar, kitchen, merchandise etc.

It's not the only source of income. If it was I wouldn't imagine it would go far.

If so many Scottish courses are able to do this, and provide better courses than many English courses at 3x the price, then you have to ask how efficient those courses are don't you?

If the dividing up costs course is SFGC, it's a myth. They have membership fees just like other clubs. Apparently there was a call for contributions towards the original build costs, but even that was only among a 'select' number of the founders.
The club only owns a small parcel of land encompassing the clubhouse and practice facilities, with the course itself being on Crown Land, with a rent of who knows what?
Scotland amazing value for membership. I wonder what the membership numbers for a typical club e.g. Leven are?

Puligny, they have two clubs, Leven Thistle and Leven Golf Society, probably around 600 each, but LP would be better placed to say.

Super - thanks. If it is 1200 for one course that would be excessive for one course facilities down here. I am sure there are similar numbers at some clubs but I reckon the norm would be a range of 500-800 - based on Hampshire and Dorset. Anyone else got any info?

Leven gets a hell of amount of play, and it's very worn as a result. it also holds a lot of Fife events.
Other courses like Montrose, St.Andrews, Carnoustie and Monifieth also have 2 or more clubs running out of the course.

If a course like Leven has 1200 members that goes a long way to explaining why subscriptions are so low. Getting a tee time on a Saturday morning must be a complete nightmare!

Some interesting stats I found in an England golf survey from 2014:
- Average number of members at a club: 499
- Adult membership breaks down as 29 members under the age of 30, 60 aged 30-44, 194 aged 45-64 and 148 over 65.
- Average subs £850 (£600 for seniors)
- 76% adult males
- 96% of members are white.

Ray, I think Leven might also get some public subsidy as it's a public course and not technically privately owned. Basically owned by the town like Carnoustie, and St. Andrews. It's in trust and run by a joint committee. It might not have 1200 members, but I'm certain it will be at least 900.

Apparently it is hard to get a tee time, no idea why people don't spend a bit more and join Lundin which is literally right next to it. Better course, quieter and better condition. Probably Scots being je.....I mean tight.

raycastleunited wrote:

super_realist wrote:
400-800 is just standard for Scottish courses. English players simply get ripped off with fees in excess of 2k.

I'm not sure ripped off is the right word. It depends on the structure.

I've been a member of 2 private clubs which are owned by the members. The membership have full transparency over the accounts, I can look at the P&L and see what the club spends money on and what profits the club makes (usually none). Staff is the big outgoing: I don't know how much it costs to employ green keepers and bar staff in Scotland, but salaries can't be as low as a third of what they are in the south of England?

The Jocks drink a lot more in the bar which subsidises everything else :-p

Not an untypical start to the season for me, 4 qualifiers so far and 4 x 0.1s, actually ticked up to 6.5 at the weekend. Bit different this year as I've normally done loads and loads of work over the winter but with the first 3 months being spent mostly in Sweden with very little practice and nursing a shoulder injury I'm completely "lost at sea" game wise at the moment. Everything is playing up and my normally reliable short game is letting me down, been hammering it the past couple of weeks and it's good again in practice, just not coming onto the course yet. The big destroyer though is that I seem to go through a 2-4 hole spell of hitting destructive big lefts, no sign of it on the range either which is even more annoying.

Sure it will turn around in due course but it would be really nice if it did it this week with a friendly 36 holer at the Berkshire Tuesday, The David Howell Classic at home Saturday (drawn to play with a couple of David's mates, 1 of whom used to caddy for him when he first turned Pro - no pressure then) Then on Sunday it's the 36 hole County Championships. Anything less than 6.8 this time next week and I'll be happy, back to 6 or even 5 and I'll be delighted.

Funny old game this golf is. For years Ive just hacked around somewhere in the 90s handicap up at 20.9 based on the online tracker.
Last weekend shot 87 +17, and today an 86 +15 with another +5 front 9. Bith scores entered and handicap shows at 18.9. I dont practice, its just seemeniglt gone well. Strange game.

Thought I'd better come in here to clarify a few things.

1. Yes, there are two clubs which use Leven Links - the Thistle and LGS. The Links is run by a committee made up of members from both clubs, there is no subsidy from Leven Council as far as I know. Unfortunately, although members at LGS would like to merge, for some reason those at the Thistle are resistant which is why we are stuck with the current situation which is not ideal.
2. There is an online booking system for members of both clubs and there are also regular slots reserved for each club at the weekends. Club competitions (other than the usual medals etc) also get reserved slots, as do matches against other clubs for men, ladies and seniors. It's not that hard for visitors to get a tee time as there are regular slots reserved for visitors and bookings are also available through Tee-off Times and other websites at a discount.
3. While the website for LGS currently says the subscription is £460, that is from April until the end of the year - the full year's sub is £510 with reductions for juniors and seniors. It is slightly cheaper at the Thistle (not sure why) although they don't have any lady members (booo) and certainly not the great view across the course from the clubhouse that LGS has.
4. LGS has about 360 members, the Thistle slightly more I think, so nowhere near the 1200 some are estimating.
5. We don't drink more in the bar because the drink-drive limit here is virtually zero which has hit bar takings very hard. LGS has a regular programme of social events (mostly tribute bands) which helps boost the coffers, also a 200 Club and other fund-raisers. Money is tight, as with most clubs, but people here just don't believe how expensive clubs in England can be. They moan if the subs are put up by £10 a year!
6. Super, the reason people don't join Lundin is that there is a two to three year waiting list unless you live in the Lundin parish. We live 5 minutes away but don't qualify. To go on the waiting list you have to pay £50 and then wait for someone to die!
7. Staff costs are not that high. At LGS there is a Secretary, a Chef/Steward and his wife (who are responsible for hiring the kitchen, bar and waiting staff and cleaners and they pay their wages out of the food receipts and their retainer). Greenkeeping comes under the control of the Joint Committee and is therefore shared by the two clubs. Not quite the vast staffing as envisaged by raycastleunited!

On another subject, I've just played the first two knockout matches at Lundin Ladies since I started playing again after an eight year layoff. I won my first match on the 18th with a six-footer on Friday (playing in a scratch match against a 25 handicapper to my 23) but was beaten 4&3 today by a 36 handicapper after I had to give her 13 shots    She played out of her skin and I played complete rubbish! On Sunday, LordPutt and I are playing in our first Mixed Open of the year - report to follow.

Thanks for clarifying that LP, I'd still at least be on the list if I was in the area, and probably icing a few steps to speed it up a bit.

super_realist wrote:Thanks for clarifying that LP, I'd still at least be on the list if I was in the area, and probably icing a few steps to speed it up a bit.

LadyPutt wrote:
4. LGS has about 360 members, the Thistle slightly more I think, so nowhere near the 1200 some are estimating.

Still, 700+ is a lot, over 40% more than average. Must be difficult to get a tee time at the weekend.

LadyPutt wrote:
7. Staff costs are not that high. At LGS there is a Secretary, a Chef/Steward and his wife (who are responsible for hiring the kitchen, bar and waiting staff and cleaners and they pay their wages out of the food receipts and their retainer). Greenkeeping comes under the control of the Joint Committee and is therefore shared by the two clubs. Not quite the vast staffing as envisaged by raycastleunited!

Aren't you forgetting the chap who cleans your clubs and polishes your shoes after every round? It's normal for private golf clubs in England to provide a butler for each member, is it not the same in Scotland?  

LadyPutt wrote:
On another subject, I've just played the first two knockout matches at Lundin Ladies since I started playing again after an eight year layoff. I won my first match on the 18th with a six-footer on Friday (playing in a scratch match against a 25 handicapper to my 23)

Congratulations LP, must feel great to get out on the course after such a long lay off. Especially to kick off with a win... *bandit alert!!!*

Ray - most of the members are old f**ts like LordPutt and me    so they play during the week. I don't think there's a problem with members getting tee times at weekends, especially with the reserved times for the respective clubs to play their medals etc. We can book online up to two weeks in advance as well so that helps.

Mixed Open report - a bit like it says on the tin .... mixed! We had some brilliant holes and some c**p ones. Unfortunately, if one of us mucked up a shot, then the other tended to compound it which isn't a good idea. But it was the first time we've played any type of Foursomes together for about 10 years so we were out of practice and at least we didn't have a domestic (although it came close on one hole). We ended with a net 69 and a net 62 won it. Could do better and our next one is on May 22nd so will report further.

Naytorious B.I.G wrote:

super_realist wrote:How did you miss a one inch putt?

A mixture of making sure i did t step on anyones line and frustation at 3 putt meant i wasnt really looking wheb went to nudge it in one handed and skimmed the top of the ball.

Ball went didnt move

I did that the other day.

Same reason, making sure I didn't step on someone's line, skimmed the ball. It rocked forward then back to it's original position.

It was actually overhanging the hole, so just need a little touch to go, but hey ho. Ever onward.

Ventured out for first 9 holes since enforced absence from early Feb. What a lovely game golf is!

So frustrated to be still 0.1ing this far into the season. Sunday just summed it up. Medal in the morning, 2 big left tee shots on 4 and 7 required reloads, a couple of 3 putts to be out in 42 (7 over), came back in 39 (and our back 9 generally plays 3-4 shots tougher than the front) missed the buffer by 1. Went out in matchplay in the afternoon and of course parred and birdied the 2 holes I messed up in the morning. Closed out the match on 14 3 over gross with an eclectic score for the day of 70 (didn't play the last 4 holes one of which I'd doubled in the morning).
Now had 11 0.1s in a row which in theory means i'll be offered a 1 shot increase this week (which I won't take). I just wonder when it's going to turn around.

JAS wrote:Now had 11 0.1s in a row which in theory means i'll be offered a 1 shot increase this week (which I won't take). I just wonder when it's going to turn around.

Frustrating isn't it, early season rust that takes longer to wire brush each year!

What do you mean you'll be "offered" a 1 shot increase? I thought you just got whatever adjustment the computer spat out?

Played at the weekend, my run of scores in the 80s (2) came to an abrubt end. Not helped by my first shot going so far right there was no point even looking for it! Then on the 10th, which is basically next to the first, same shot! Bloody game.

Roller_Coaster wrote:

JAS wrote:Now had 11 0.1s in a row which in theory means i'll be offered a 1 shot increase this week (which I won't take). I just wonder when it's going to turn around.

Frustrating isn't it, early season rust that takes longer to wire brush each year!

What do you mean you'll be "offered" a 1 shot increase? I thought you just got whatever adjustment the computer spat out?

Yes the computer spits out recommendations, coming down, exceptional score drops are mandatory.
Going up (it's actually 7 x 0.1s in a row) the computer starts flagging it but it's optional. Our h&c committee review the computer recommendations on a monthly basis then tell the individuals concerned but I do believe it's optional on the players part as to whether to accept the recommendation.

The club can put you up/down in general play if you're category 2,3 or 4.

They can't if you are Cat 1

Our place doesn't offer you the increase as an option, it just goes through. Although other than the annual review I don't recall seeing anyone change through either supplementary cards, or whatever the equivalent of general play is now for some time.

I saw someone get a shot chop for having 1 41 point stableford round. I thought it needed to be 2 or 3 40+ points consecutively.

Ahh, I remember cat 1.

Just!

JAS wrote:

Roller_Coaster wrote:

JAS wrote:Now had 11 0.1s in a row which in theory means i'll be offered a 1 shot increase this week (which I won't take). I just wonder when it's going to turn around.

Frustrating isn't it, early season rust that takes longer to wire brush each year!

What do you mean you'll be "offered" a 1 shot increase? I thought you just got whatever adjustment the computer spat out?

Yes the computer spits out recommendations, coming down, exceptional score drops are mandatory.
Going up (it's actually 7 x 0.1s in a row) the computer starts flagging it but it's optional. Our h&c committee review the computer recommendations on a monthly basis then tell the individuals concerned but I do believe it's optional on the players part as to whether to accept the recommendation.

I'm confused.

Let's say your handicap is 7.4, and you miss the buffer so it's 0.1 on the handicap, so your new handicap is 7.5 rounded to 8. Are you saying this is optional and you can still stay at 7?

Or are you saying that because you have failed to make buffer 11 times in a row, the handicapping programme flags this and suggests you get an additional 1.0 increase to your handicap, ie. your new handicap would be 8.5 rounded to 9? And you can refuse to take this?

I'm reading it as the latter and so someone seems to have the option of whether to accept the "extra" shot as a result of failing to attain a "buffer" score in 7 consecutive qualifying comps. I don't think there's any way of not accepting the result of the automatic 0.1's.

I think you can ask for a handicap review at any time if you don't believe your playing handicap reasonably reflects your playing ability, wait for the annual review the h/cap committee have to do or submit supplementary cards to get a cut outside qualifying competition (unless you are cat 1, when I don't think you can submit supplementary cards).

Plenty at our place would take the extra shot and then miraculously return to "form" come the next significant comp!

raycastleunited wrote:

JAS wrote:

Roller_Coaster wrote:

JAS wrote:Now had 11 0.1s in a row which in theory means i'll be offered a 1 shot increase this week (which I won't take). I just wonder when it's going to turn around.

Frustrating isn't it, early season rust that takes longer to wire brush each year!

What do you mean you'll be "offered" a 1 shot increase? I thought you just got whatever adjustment the computer spat out?

Yes the computer spits out recommendations, coming down, exceptional score drops are mandatory.
Going up (it's actually 7 x 0.1s in a row) the computer starts flagging it but it's optional. Our h&c committee review the computer recommendations on a monthly basis then tell the individuals concerned but I do believe it's optional on the players part as to whether to accept the recommendation.

I'm confused.

Let's say your handicap is 7.4, and you miss the buffer so it's 0.1 on the handicap, so your new handicap is 7.5 rounded to 8. Are you saying this is optional and you can still stay at 7?

Or are you saying that because you have failed to make buffer 11 times in a row, the handicapping programme flags this and suggests you get an additional 1.0 increase to your handicap, ie. your new handicap would be 8.5 rounded to 9? And you can refuse to take this?

Pretty much exactly whats just happened to me.
Gone from 7 to 9 in after a bout of some of the worse golf ever seen.
Didn't seem to get an option to refuse it though - not that I would have done!

Just returned from the most wonderful trip to Scotland. Four of us went up to celebrate a mate's birthday and stayed in St Andrews.

We had 5 rounds starting at the Eden on Thursday, the easiest of those we played. We had the option of playing of the back tees on a couple of the courses but stuck with the yellows or equivalent. Started with a 74 on the Eden, next day was the toughest test at Carnoustie where I struggled a bit to an 85. Saturday we played the Torrance where I shot 77 before we played at the beautiful Kingsbarns on Sunday where I played really well to shoot 78.

We went in the ballot to play The Old Course and struck lucky with one of the last tee times yesterday afternoon. My caddie was brilliant, worked on the European Tour and caddied for Chris Doak in the 2013 US Open. He is on Mark McNulty's bag in the Senior Open at Royal Porthcawl in July. With his enormous help I was level par on the front 9, but the rain came on the back 9 and I had 3 bogeys and a double...guess where?...Yes the road hole of course! Delighted to shoot 77 though.

Weather was great, played in shorts for 3 of the rounds. Didn't lose a ball, had 11 birdies and nothing worse than a double (although I had 4 of those at Carnoustie!) Was just a fantastic trip, one which will live long in my memory and a privilege to play those courses.

Nice courses Blue. I love the Eden, nice quick round and probably the best running greens at St.Andrews.

How do you rate Kingsbarns? I think it's a really fair course, but a real thrill to play as it's just so good looking.

BlueCoverman wrote:Just returned from the most wonderful trip to Scotland. Four of us went up to celebrate a mate's birthday and stayed in St Andrews.

We had 5 rounds starting at the Eden on Thursday, the easiest of those we played. We had the option of playing of the back tees on a couple of the courses but stuck with the yellows or equivalent. Started with a 74 on the Eden, next day was the toughest test at Carnoustie where I struggled a bit to an 85. Saturday we played the Torrance where I shot 77 before we played at the beautiful Kingsbarns on Sunday where I played really well to shoot 78.

We went in the ballot to play The Old Course and struck lucky with one of the last tee times yesterday afternoon. My caddie was brilliant, worked on the European Tour and caddied for Chris Doak in the 2013 US Open. He is on Mark McNulty's bag in the Senior Open at Royal Porthcawl in July. With his enormous help I was level par on the front 9, but the rain came on the back 9 and I had 3 bogeys and a double...guess where?...Yes the road hole of course! Delighted to shoot 77 though.

Weather was great, played in shorts for 3 of the rounds. Didn't lose a ball, had 11 birdies and nothing worse than a double (although I had 4 of those at Carnoustie!) Was just a fantastic trip, one which will live long in my memory and a privilege to play those courses.    

Sounds sweet. my mates have just got back from a links trip but with a baby at home I wasn't going anywhere

I really enjoyed Kingsbarns Super. We were fortunate to play it on a lovely sunny day and I agree it is quite stunning, right up there with the best courses that I have ever played. One of the starters said to us, Carnoustie is the toughest, Kingsbarns is the prettiest and The Old Course has the history and I think that's about right.

Everybody says it Ray, but enjoy these times as they are soon gone!

Been getting to the range quite a bit during my lunch hours and touch wood it's paying off. Played a stableford on Saturday and shot my best round at my home course - 75. 43 points and a 1.6 cut. However, that followed on from a 1 shot cut 3 rounds ago so an exceptional scoring cut of 2 gets added to that to take me from 10.0 to 6.4. What's the opposite of a nosebleed?

"In the zone" smithers! Nice one well done.

Thanks. Medal on Saturday, just hoping to still be off six after that!

10 to 6 in 4 laps?

Hope you hold (at least) this week.

What have you been doing at the range? Working on specifics, bedding in lesson stuff or something wild and wacky?

Thanks. Haven't had a lesson for ages but had enough in the past to know what I should be doing to hit the ball better. More importantly I make sure I don't just bang balls, I have putting days, pitching/chipping days and long game days. Most of the time I try to hit a few putts as well as a bucket of balls. I'm fortunate that I genuinely enjoy practising.

Lot of luck involved, went out tonight in a singles match and couldn't hit the proverbial barn door.

So back up to 7, played terribly yesterday, particularly on the par 5s where I had two 8s, a seven and two fives. Even one of the fives was lucky, first tee shot looked like it might be ob so I reloaded, put that way out and so hit a third off the tee. First ball was in by inches, otherwise it would have been a 9 at best! 11 to 7 via 6 in five rounds!

SmithersJones wrote:So back up to 7, played terribly yesterday, particularly on the par 5s where I had two 8s, a seven and two fives. Even one of the fives was lucky, first tee shot looked like it might be ob so I reloaded, put that way out and so hit a third off the tee. First ball was in by inches, otherwise it would have been a 9 at best! 11 to 7 via 6 in five rounds!

Make the most Smithers, I've gone from 12 to 7 now back to 9 nearing 10 over the last 18 months. You never quite know what's coming next...

Another knockout - another win on the 18th! Lost a previous 9-hole knockout to a lady who was chipping and putting in from everywhere (and I had to give her 4 shots) but this time we were playing off scratch so it was very tight (and bloody windy) although I was never in front until the last putt on the last green  Semi-final now awaits!

Great stuff LP. Sounds like you are having a good time in Scotland.

McLaren wrote:Great stuff LP.  Sounds like you are having a good time in Scotland.

Certainly am! The weather is taking a bit of getting used to, especially the high winds, but other than that it's the best move (if you'll pardon the pun) we've ever made.

Tried out the new Taylormade TP5 and TP5x balls this weekend (usually a ProV1x for me).

Couldn't get the damn things in the holes on the green (user error!) but unless this weekend was (a rare) one where my ball striking was just bang on, they seemed to go longer and much straighter than the usual Titleists, possibly up to around a club on occasion. It was also warmer than it has been, but I think they were still noticeably longer. Feel not too dissimilar to the Titleists on and around the greens. Definitely less spin, which might take a bit of getting used to when firing into greens but after a bit of practise I'd guess quite easily adjustable to (I was fairly comfortable within a round, but am probably not good enough ). They do grip well but I'd say side by side, on similar shots they'd probably stop where a ProV1 might come back a little bit.

Not saying they're better but might be worth an experiment. Certainly the best ball TM have produced as I've always been disappointed with them from the Penta, through Lethal via the older TP when side by side with the equivalent Titleist.

That said - still two 0.1 increases over the weekend but definitely putter related rather than ball striking

It seems everyone has a golf trip to Scotland, so I am still trying to sweet talk the wife into allowing me to take advantage of a friend with contacts in August - 2 rounds at Troon and one at Dundonald (?) being talked about. Lets hope I pull them off!

Gave the Evnroll putter it's debut yesterday. 6 Birdies in the final 10 holes.

Roller_Coaster wrote:Tried out the new Taylormade TP5 and TP5x balls this weekend (usually a ProV1x for me). Couldn't get the damn things in the holes on the green

Definitely the ball's fault

beninho wrote:It seems everyone has a golf trip to Scotland, so I am still trying to sweet talk the wife into allowing me to take advantage of a friend with contacts in August - 2 rounds at Troon and one at Dundonald (?) being talked about. Lets hope I pull them off!

You need to be careful how you phrase that Ben. If you tell the wife you want to take advantage of a friend with benefits you might not make it up to Scotland!

Not played Troon but Dundonald is a great course. Will be top notch with the Scottish Open there in July... enjoy

super_realist wrote:Gave the Evnroll putter it's debut yesterday. 6 Birdies in the final 10 holes.

Read an article about them a little while ago, wondered whether it was marketing hyperbole but the tech piqued my interest. You're the first person I am aware that has one/has used one. Saw your post and had a quick look at the mygolfspy review/test against the best putters they'd tested and the conclusions were glowing, drawing comparisons with using titanium in drivers and never going back to steel/wood.

Is it all that? 6 in ten is an impressive stat, but not unheard of in the upper echelons of handicap golf that you inhabit! Did it do what it purports to on the others? Same distance on mishits? Was there any "gearing" effect?

Where did you get it from?

Roller, I've had three rounds with it so far, 2 of which were far too windy to give a realistic appraisal of it as it was pushing the ball off line.
Six birdies in 10 holes and 12 putts for the same number of holes is certainly impressive, but I've had those sort of stats with new putters before and they've gone cold.

Time will tell if it's a honeymoon period that will soon wear off.
It does roll exceptionally well, virtually no jumping off the face, which is something which either previous putters or my stroke have put on a ball.
The next few weeks will give me a better idea, but first impressions are pretty positive.

Where from? The EVN website just says UK distributor is Premier Marketing (that also do the Football club headcovers) but doesn't seem to give any retailers.