Most "important" players

by ChequeredJersey Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:03 am

With the talk about avoiding injuries in the warm ups, the small knocks to Murray and Sexton and the unfortunate serious looking injuries to Webb and Halfpenny, who is the one (or more if you must) player that you really think your team would struggle without, the irreplaceable one? Or the closet to it anyway.

For England I have to say that unless Lancaster reverses on his foreign player decision, it's most likely Robshaw, for his tackling, breakdown work and work rate in attack as well as being our captain, but I expect there may be another couple of names mentioned

Touch wood we don't jinx anyone though

by majesticimperialman Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:10 am

I think one of the England players we would struggle with out, is Mike Brown at full back.

Yes we have Goode, but if he had played on saturday instead of brown, we would have lost in my opinion.

by Artful_Dodger Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:11 am

For Ireland its Sexton, O'Connell, Ross and Murray in that order in my opinion. So Sexton if I had to pick one.

by ChequeredJersey Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:14 am

majesticimperialman wrote:I think one of the England players we would struggle with out, is Mike Brown at full back.

Yes we have Goode, but if he had played on saturday instead of brown, we would have lost in my opinion.

I did think Brown. But Goode is fine for certain types of game, just Brown vital when the opposition's main style is the kick-chase game.

I do expect that if we play Ireland in the RWC, they will play a different game though.

by Guest Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:45 am

For Wales right now Biggar and Roberts are the most important players by far, we don't have quality backup to either of them

by **LondonTiger** Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:46 am

For Wales it is now surely Biggar. With 1/2p seeming to be out, do they really want to trust Priestland with the goal kicking?

by **NeilyBroon** Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:27 am

For Scotland we're Donald ducked if we lose Russell. We also really can't lose any wingers at the moment. This and we're one injury away from having an openside crisis

by **LondonTiger** Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:29 am

Apparently Vernon has been nominated to cover russell and wing, as well as back row and centre. Run

by emack2 Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:46 am

For FIJI Nadolo scores tries, ace goalkick too [9 from 9 yesterday]

by reallybored Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:47 am

Hogg for me.

But Russell is a close 2nd

With Gray Jnr in 3rd.

by whocares Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:16 am

Picamoles. Maybe Huget as well. The rest can feck off.

by doctor_grey Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:18 am

Hartley

by Artful_Dodger Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:34 am

For England I was going to suggest Phil Vickery, but rumour has it he may be about to retire.

by ChequeredJersey Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:51 am

Artful_Dodger wrote:For England I was going to suggest Phil Vickery, but rumour has it he may be about to retire.

On current evidence he would improve our scrum...

by doctor_grey Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:52 am

Artful_Dodger wrote:For England I was going to suggest Phil Vickery, but rumour has it he may be about to retire.

What????
How could you let this happen?

by **Biltong** Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:07 am

For us it is Duane Vermeulen, his pilfering ability, work rate , defence, ball carrying ability and aerial skills.

Currently the best number 8 in world rugby in my humble opinion.

by mikey_dragon Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:10 am

For England it has to be Burgess.

by **Biltong** Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:12 am

mikey_dragon wrote:For England it has to be Burgess.

I hope for their sake it isn't, I watched him yesterday when he came on, if you run straight at him he will demolish you in a tackle, but when you make him hesitate you can easily run onto his weak shoulder, he seemed unsure in the thirteen channel on defence.

13 is one of the most difficult channels to defend, and coming from league Burgess will have to learn fast

by BamBam Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:23 am

Uh oh, don't let Englandglory4ever hear that

by ChequeredJersey Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:43 am

Biltong wrote:For us it is Duane Vermeulen, his pilfering ability, work rate , defence, ball carrying ability and aerial skills.

Currently the best number 8 in world rugby in my humble opinion.

I'd agree there. Best player in the world over the last 12 months for me

by Wi11 Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:43 am

emack2 wrote:For FIJI Nadolo scores tries, ace goalkick too [9 from 9 yesterday]

Imho Matawalu is by a distance Fiji's most important player. He's at the heart of all their best attack (created 3 tries before limping off at half time yday) and Fiji don't have a comparable replacement. Hopefully his injury isn't serious.

Nadolo is ridiculous but Fiji have plenty more good wingers and I think Volavola, assuming he plays, is a better goal kicker.

by offload Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:29 pm

I don't agree that it's Biggar or Roberts for Wales. It has to be Lee and Francis in that order. If we don't have a TH we don't need a 10 or 12.

by GavinDragon Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:05 pm

offload wrote:I don't agree that it's Biggar or Roberts for Wales. It has to be Lee and Francis in that order. If we don't have a TH we don't need a 10 or 12.

+1

by **George Carlin** Mon Sep 07, 2015 5:59 pm

whocares wrote:Picamoles. Maybe Huget as well. The rest can feck off.

Bad morning, WhoCares?

by **George Carlin** Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:00 pm

Wi11 wrote:
emack2 wrote:For FIJI Nadolo scores tries, ace goalkick too [9 from 9 yesterday]

Imho Matawalu is by a distance Fiji's most important player. He's at the heart of all their best attack (created 3 tries before limping off at half time yday) and Fiji don't have a comparable replacement. Hopefully his injury isn't serious.

Nadolo is ridiculous but Fiji have plenty more good wingers and I think Volavola, assuming he plays, is a better goal kicker.

Yes, Matawalu and Nakarawa don't have a replacement of remotely comparable quality. Nadolo a close second to those two.

by Gooseberry Mon Sep 07, 2015 6:19 pm

For England it Brown, especially since theyve lost Foden the last couple of years..when he was out it was very noticebale. Then maybe Jospeh since they dont have anyone to cover 13 properly.

by Exiledinborders Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:14 pm

Gooseberry wrote:For England it Brown, especially since theyve lost Foden the last couple of years..when he was out it was very noticebale. Then maybe Jospeh since they dont have anyone to cover 13 properly.

Slade has played a lot at thirteen and is a fine player.

by Geordie Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:15 pm

I agree re Mike Brown.

When hes on form he just makes you feel so much more comfortable when he's there at FB. Plus I like his aggression.

Robshaw...yeah fair call. Not sure we'd miss his actual leadership mind.

by Exiledinborders Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:19 pm

Probably Brown but Morgan would be a loss just because the alternatives are not good. Billy V has been pretty awful in warm ups and I have never been convinced by Haskell.

After RWC I suspect Morgan will be competing with Nathan Hughes.

by fa0019 Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:21 pm

I made a mental note of the most important players by country and kept on choosing front five forwards. England, SA, Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Australia... they all need minimum parity in scrums and lineouts. Without it the backrow are on the back foot, the pivot is pressurised, the centres feed off scraps and wings don't get gaps to fall into.

Halfpenny can be replaced by Williams reasonably smoothly, mentally its a huge loss though. Webb, more difficult but Phillips must be favoured... he loves the big arena against physical sides such as the boks & England. I'd start him for England for sure, perhaps not AUS mind.

by **LondonTiger** Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:24 pm

TBH the most important "player" will be the ref. Get one whose interpretations favour your teams style and you are in clover. Get it the other way round and you are fecked.

by beshocked Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:27 pm

Exiledinborders seems a bit short sighted to write off Billy V for being poor in the warm ups when he had a very good 6 nations and good club season.

Slade hasn't had many caps for England though has he?

For England it's probably Robshaw because Lancaster didn't try Ksevic in the warm ups leaving England with question marks at 7.

by LordDowlais Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:29 pm

Gareth Davies and Liam Williams have just gone into the VERY important category for Wales. Rolling Eyes

by fa0019 Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:31 pm

Robshaw can be all singing all dancing but unless the England scrum and lineout functions he will be as totally ineffective. Parling is the most important player for England at this world cup... funny he hadn't been first choice had Hartley been in the squad.

by GavCanDance Mon Sep 07, 2015 7:51 pm

Biggar for Wales. I'm always edgy when Mike Brown gets the ball - I think he's an exceptional and dangerous player for England. And Sexton for Ireland.

by Poorfour Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:38 pm

beshocked wrote:Exiledinborders seems a bit short sighted to write off Billy V for being poor in the warm ups when he had a very good 6 nations and good club season.

Slade hasn't had many caps for England though has he?

For England it's probably Robshaw because Lancaster didn't try Ksevic in the warm ups leaving England with question marks at 7.

So... Slade is a big risk at 13 because he hasn't had many caps, despite being the form player at AP level and having shown well in the warm-up matches, while 7 is a risky position for England because they didn't give a player who doesn't have many caps a go in the warm-up matches? My head hurts.

I'd agree that it's too early to write Billy off, though his failure to find form in the matches so far is worrying. Billy should be fit, in form and in firm control of the jersey but instead both Morgan and Easter have looked far better. His 6N form merits his inclusion in the squad (as does Morgan's rapid improvement) - but he looks like he's lost his confidence along with his excess weight.

I'd also agree that losing Robshaw would be a blow, but not because Kvesic isn't in the squad. It's because I don't believe there is another player in England who can match his workload. According to the ESPN stats, he was the best tackler, close behind Morgan in carrying, and passed the ball more than anyone except Joseph and the half backs. He also hit the receiver at the kick-offs (which created the field position for the tries) and hit a lot of rucks.

As for Slade, he's inexperienced, but there's been nothing in any of his play to suggest he's not ready to step up.

by Poorfour Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:46 pm

fa0019 wrote:Robshaw can be all singing all dancing but unless the England scrum and lineout functions he will be as totally ineffective. Parling is the most important player for England at this world cup... funny he hadn't been first choice had Hartley been in the squad.

I saw enough on Saturday to suggest that the scrum and lineout will be where they need to be when the tournament starts. Neither were as bad as they have been made out to be on Saturday. The scrum wasn't particularly aggressive on Ireland's ball and lost a couple through incompetent footwork by Youngs and the second rows, but it wasn't crumbling the way it did in Paris. The lineout was scrappy but improved as it went on - and importantly wasn't challenged by the Irish lineout the way it was (with Hartley) in Dublin. Assuming that England are still tapering their gym work into their technical training, I'd expect a further improvement by 18th.

I could see Jamie George leapfrogging Youngs to be the starter, though. It certainly would be worth a try for the Fiji game.

by fa0019 Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:49 pm

Slade would be smashed at 13. Firstly... he's not a 13. Secondly he was only able to operate in such a position because he had a demon at 12 taking the brunt of the defensive duties.

Barritt is a good tackler but doesn't pulvarise the opposition the way Burgess does. You'd see a lot of people exploiting his channel if he were to play. Imagine Nonu & SBW running down his channel.. confident of stepping up still?

Probably 2nd choice mind if Joseph gets injured.

by No 7&1/2 Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:52 pm

Hate to keep picking up your knowledge of English players but Slade is one of the strongest tacklers in the prem. He is able to play 10-13 with no issues.

by funnyExiledScot Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:52 pm

For Scotland it isn't so much who the "best" players are, but rather the players where the drop in quality is the greatest between them and the next best player.

I would identify Finn Russell as our most "important" player, followed by Mark Bennett. There replacement would be Duncan Weir and Richie Vernon. Both are only just adequate at international level, and in fact I'm not even sure Weir justifies that label.

Hogg is a cracking player, and probably the best we have, but when he's injured we have Sean Maitland covering 15, and he's no slouch.

by fa0019 Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:52 pm

Poorfour wrote:
fa0019 wrote:Robshaw can be all singing all dancing but unless the England scrum and lineout functions he will be as totally ineffective. Parling is the most important player for England at this world cup... funny he hadn't been first choice had Hartley been in the squad.

I saw enough on Saturday to suggest that the scrum and lineout will be where they need to be when the tournament starts. Neither were as bad as they have been made out to be on Saturday. The scrum wasn't particularly aggressive on Ireland's ball and lost a couple through incompetent footwork by Youngs and the second rows, but it wasn't crumbling the way it did in Paris. The lineout was scrappy but improved as it went on - and importantly wasn't challenged by the Irish lineout the way it was (with Hartley) in Dublin. Assuming that England are still tapering their gym work into their technical training, I'd expect a further improvement by 18th.

I could see Jamie George leapfrogging Youngs to be the starter, though. It certainly would be worth a try for the Fiji game.

The problem is... you can surprise teams with short lineouts etc for maybe 1 or 2 games but teams aren't stupid. They monitor your form. Come the SF if England get there, the lineout will be under much more scrutiny and the little tricks England used to get parity there on the weekend will be lost... and then its all to do with your bread and butter throws.

Cole looks to be suffering though. Would Wilson be a better bet?

Youngs played the best I've ever seen him play in the loose... but its all for nothing if you can't throw straight and push in the scrum.

by fa0019 Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:57 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hate to keep picking up your knowledge of English players but Slade is one of the strongest tacklers in the prem. He is able to play 10-13 with no issues.

In the prem.

Like saying I know a guy that kicks serious butt in division 2 football, put him up against Messi.

I recall your smackdown of me on Tom Youngs etc pre these games and I imagine your retort will still be the same.... ah but he's dynamite in the loose (agreed). Lineout was better than expected sure but you can't play surprise throws for long and he was still very shaky in the set piece.

by No 7&1/2 Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:00 pm

So you'd agree he is very strong defensively in the prem, you just don't think he will be at international level. I'd disagree.

by Mr Fishpaste Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:07 pm

Biltong wrote:For us it is Duane Vermeulen, his pilfering ability, work rate , defence, ball carrying ability and aerial skills.

Currently the best number 8 in world rugby in my humble opinion.

I'd add Jannie Du Plessis and the Beast. The difference that their absenses made in the last quarter of both the AUS and NZ test was palpable.

by fa0019 Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you'd agree he is very strong defensively in the prem, you just don't think he will be at international level. I'd disagree.

No, I can't say he is or he isn't, but the step up is huge and unless he's playing week in week out at 13 (the most demanding defensive position on the pitch) he will be exploited unless he's a Neil Back like demon i.e. dropping 1 or 2 tackles a season at worst.

To me he looks like a 10 who can play 5/8. In his one cap he did well but he had a lot of help from Burgess... he won't get that usually (unless Burgess is playing himself that is).

by BamBam Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:13 pm

Slade won't knock anyone backwards, but will make the tackles, of that I have no doubt

Not sure if you follow Exeter much fa, but Slade played a lot of games at 13 this season

by **Biltong** Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:23 pm

Mr Fishpaste wrote:
Biltong wrote:For us it is Duane Vermeulen, his pilfering ability, work rate , defence, ball carrying ability and aerial skills.

Currently the best number 8 in world rugby in my humble opinion.

I'd add Jannie Du Plessis and the Beast. The difference that their absenses made in the last quarter of both the AUS and NZ test was palpable.

Very true

by fa0019 Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:23 pm

I recall the chat on Matt Tait when he first came in... "in the prem people say he tackles harder than Wilkinson".

If he comes in and doesn't get made a fool of with his limited experience it would be pretty remarkable and be the start of an amazing career. With age however you gain a little bit of cynicism (maybe good/maybe bad).. you see a lot of young players come through and sometimes those which make the grade aren't the most obvious ones.

Hell, I used to play with a chap who played academy rugby with BOD and D'arcy. Said that BOD was good but not exceptional, D'arcy was the best player aged grade he'd ever seen as would streets ahead of BOD age for age. Never would have seen BOD becoming the player he did. A few grades up from that sure but prem to test is still a big big jump.

by Gooseberry Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:29 pm

Poorfour wrote:

I'd also agree that losing Robshaw would be a blow, but not because Kvesic isn't in the squad. It's because I don't believe there is another player in England who can match his workload.

As for Slade, he's inexperienced, but there's been nothing in any of his play to suggest he's not ready to step up.

Burgess could outwork him for dinner based on what he used to do in league but hey ho thats another argument!

Slade at 13...I fell the issue is more to do with combinations and what England want from their 13. When it comes to looking like a winger who spends a lot of time at the gym Slade just doenst match up in the same way JJ does or Burrell before him or Tuillagi beforte him. The prime thing England want form their 13 is beating defenders. Slade brings other things like his kicking game but losing JJ would limit how england play to some extent.

Id also say that simply having played in a position a lot for a club doenst mena that much, Farrell was playing 13 for Sarries and still first choice 10 for England ...had he been picked at OC for tests I think fans wouldve asked for Johnson back. And I wont mention Burgess again (but did).

Slade has his fans, but when it boils down to it he was a borderline call for the squad full stop.

Id assume he is the cover for 13, I cant imagine any combination with BArrit out there, and starting Burgess there is surely not on the cards?

by fa0019 Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:34 pm

Biltong wrote:
Mr Fishpaste wrote:
Biltong wrote:For us it is Duane Vermeulen, his pilfering ability, work rate , defence, ball carrying ability and aerial skills.

Currently the best number 8 in world rugby in my humble opinion.

I'd add Jannie Du Plessis and the Beast. The difference that their absenses made in the last quarter of both the AUS and NZ test was palpable.

Very true

Actually think Frans is starting to settle at 3 test level. Beast is more important because the next best is quite a few notches down.
Bissie sets the tone for the boks though. If he's having a good game, the boks are having a good game.

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