Most "important" players

First topic message reminder :

With the talk about avoiding injuries in the warm ups, the small knocks to Murray and Sexton and the unfortunate serious looking injuries to Webb and Halfpenny, who is the one (or more if you must) player that you really think your team would struggle without, the irreplaceable one? Or the closet to it anyway.

For England I have to say that unless Lancaster reverses on his foreign player decision, it's most likely Robshaw, for his tackling, breakdown work and work rate in attack as well as being our captain, but I expect there may be another couple of names mentioned

Touch wood we don't jinx anyone though

fa0019 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you'd agree he is very strong defensively in the prem, you just don't think he will be at international level. I'd disagree.

No, I can't say he is or he isn't, but the step up is huge and unless he's playing week in week out at 13 (the most demanding defensive position on the pitch) he will be exploited unless he's a Neil Back like demon i.e. dropping 1 or 2 tackles a season at worst.

To me he looks like a 10 who can play 5/8. In his one cap he did well but he had a lot of help from Burgess... he won't get that usually (unless Burgess is playing himself that is).

He has played week in week out at 13 though, take it you've watched him lots then! Of course internationals are a step up but he's very strong defensively, not sure why you'd pick out that 1 aspect and question him there unless you haven't seen him play much (which by the fact you didn't know he was filling in at 13 for a good while seems to be the case).

fa0019 wrote:I recall the chat on Matt Tait when he first came in... "in the prem people say he tackles harder than Wilkinson".

If he comes in and doesn't get made a fool of with his limited experience it would be pretty remarkable and be the start of an amazing career. With age however you gain a little bit of cynicism (maybe good/maybe bad).. you see a lot of young players come through and sometimes those which make the grade aren't the most obvious ones.

Hell, I used to play with a chap who played academy rugby with BOD and D'arcy. Said that BOD was good but not exceptional, D'arcy was the best player aged grade he'd ever seen as would streets ahead of BOD age for age. Never would have seen BOD becoming the player he did. A few grades up from that sure but prem to test is still a big big jump.

Have you been drinking?

Tait was never remotely close to Johnny's tackling...he was being talked up because of his running attacking ability.

You talk a lot about English players but really don't actually have any fact about them...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I recall the chat on Matt Tait when he first came in... "in the prem people say he tackles harder than Wilkinson".

If he comes in and doesn't get made a fool of with his limited experience it would be pretty remarkable and be the start of an amazing career. With age however you gain a little bit of cynicism (maybe good/maybe bad).. you see a lot of young players come through and sometimes those which make the grade aren't the most obvious ones.

Hell, I used to play with a chap who played academy rugby with BOD and D'arcy. Said that BOD was good but not exceptional, D'arcy was the best player aged grade he'd ever seen as would streets ahead of BOD age for age. Never would have seen BOD becoming the player he did. A few grades up from that sure but prem to test is still a big big jump.

Have you been drinking?

Tait was never remotely close to Johnny's tackling...he was being talked up because of his running attacking ability.

You talk a lot about English players but really don't actually have any fact about them...

In late 2004 the buzz was that yes he's small but he can tackle as well as JW, if not harder. This is what was being said of him at the time.

I genuinely don't recall that!
And im a Newcastle falcon fan!

Think your mistaken there...

I didn't talk that much about England players, I've spoken about pretty much most nations today.  No 7.5 and I tend to have an opposite idea to things and I'm sure he literally scours 606 for anything I say on England which he seems to take an opposite view point and starts a debate. Happy to reply, thats why we're here.

Maybe Slade is this outside centre god in waiting.

No he's not god...but he is a young lad who has played the whole season for a good side and played exceptionally well.

And as mentioned above he has at no stage been smashed or walked over in defence.

Why should he not be given a go in the WC?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I genuinely don't recall that!
And im a Newcastle falcon fan!

Think your mistaken there...

must be garbage then!!

This was chat I recall talking with some fellows in my old London rugby club prior to his start with Wales in the 05 campaign when he was first selected. I recall it because the build up was huge and the result was dire. Were they all diehard falcons fans, no. Were they complete rose tinted nobodies, no.

No, just when you say things where you obviously make a mistake, such as the fact you've just said Slade doesn't have any experience of 13. Clearly that's a mistake and suggests you haven't watched him. When you haven't watched him I would question your assertion that he will struggle defensively. Think thats a pretty fair point myself. It's been the same with a few England players, when quesitoned the foundations are shakey.

Exiledinborders wrote:Probably Brown but Morgan would be a loss just because the alternatives are not good. Billy V has been pretty awful in warm ups and I have never been convinced by Haskell.

After RWC I suspect Morgan will be competing with Nathan Hughes.

Nick Easter. Done

No 7&1/2 wrote:No, just when you say things where you obviously make a mistake, such as the fact you've just said Slade doesn't have any experience of 13. Clearly that's a mistake and suggests you haven't watched him. When you haven't watched him I would question your assertion that he will struggle defensively. Think thats a pretty fair point myself. It's been the same with a few England players, when quesitoned the foundations are shakey.

Ok so took time to see how experienced.

He played 23 matches last season. All bar 1 he started. He played 6 games as OC, the rest as 10.

If 6 games in tier 1 domestic rugby is experienced then fine... roll on Nonu & SBW. Doesn't mean he isn't but IMO enough to question given he doesn't look like he has a break enough to cater for any lack of sound positioning at test level.

Thought he played at 13 more than that, but I'll bow to the stats

Nonu and SBW are more likely to come up against Barritt aren't they? Off first phase I mean?

After that, back rowers are around as cover etc, I'm struggling to think of many occasions where a big runner like Bastereud or Henshaw in the last couple of games came up directly against Joseph in open play

13 is the most important defensive position in the game no question. If the guy is weak or can be exploited either pace or position wise you're in trouble. 12 can be assisted by flankers and even a scrumhalf playing sweeper FdP has made a career out of this defensive covering.

SA have had massive issues with 13. With no Jaque Fourie they've tried De Jongh, Engelbrecht, Mapoe, Kriel all in there and stuck mainly with De Villiers generally as he can deal with the role even though he's half crocked and a little slow with age.

I thought JDV usually played 12!

He does, but in defence he often moves into the OC position

I'll add my bit on Slade for what it's worth. I watch a lot of prem games and IMO Slade is the best young English centre playing professional rugby. Even though Exeter has started him a lot at 10, I think he will eventually settle at 12. He is a strong defender playing at 10, 12 or 13.

I'm surprised SL didn't use him in the 6Ns as although he deserves to be in the 31 as a back up, this WC is a bit early for him. IMO the mistake was taking Burgess (who is always out of position) as with Burgess and Slade England have little experienced back up. Three experienced centres plus Slade would have been a good combination.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you'd agree he is very strong defensively in the prem, you just don't think he will be at international level. I'd disagree.

No, I can't say he is or he isn't, but the step up is huge and unless he's playing week in week out at 13 (the most demanding defensive position on the pitch) he will be exploited unless he's a Neil Back like demon i.e. dropping 1 or 2 tackles a season at worst.

To me he looks like a 10 who can play 5/8. In his one cap he did well but he had a lot of help from Burgess... he won't get that usually (unless Burgess is playing himself that is).

He has played week in week out at 13 though, take it you've watched him lots then! Of course internationals are a step up but he's very strong defensively, not sure why you'd pick out that 1 aspect and question him there unless you haven't seen him play much (which by the fact you didn't know he was filling in at 13 for a good while seems to be the case).

Plus he didn't really get much help from Burgess nor did he need it. 

Slade is a 10, true, but he has been playing all season at 13 (and 5/8 is the same thing as 10...)

fa0019 wrote:Robshaw can be all singing all dancing but unless the England scrum and lineout functions he will be as totally ineffective. Parling is the most important player for England at this world cup... funny he hadn't been first choice had Hartley been in the squad.

Dunno, he seemed to manage on Saturday

Hartley

I still think if we lost Ritchie McCaw it would have a great impact on our chances

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Biltong wrote:For us it is Duane Vermeulen, his pilfering ability, work rate , defence, ball carrying ability and aerial skills.

Currently the best number 8 in world rugby in my humble opinion.

I'd agree there. Best player in the world over the last 12 months for me

Vermeulen is great, but Picamoles is even better.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Biltong wrote:For us it is Duane Vermeulen, his pilfering ability, work rate , defence, ball carrying ability and aerial skills.

Currently the best number 8 in world rugby in my humble opinion.

I'd agree there. Best player in the world over the last 12 months for me

Vermeulen is great, but Picamoles is even better.

Better carrier, offers less all round, IMO

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Biltong wrote:For us it is Duane Vermeulen, his pilfering ability, work rate , defence, ball carrying ability and aerial skills.

Currently the best number 8 in world rugby in my humble opinion.

I'd agree there. Best player in the world over the last 12 months for me

Vermeulen is great, but Picamoles is even better.

Better carrier, offers less all round, IMO

I completely disagree. He shares all of the same qualities that Biltong has already mentioned regarding Vermeulen and has had the same sort of impact for the French team. The fact that he is a better ball carrier with fantastic hands puts him ahead.

He isn't as highly regarded because France have been terrible for years now.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Biltong wrote:For us it is Duane Vermeulen, his pilfering ability, work rate , defence, ball carrying ability and aerial skills.

Currently the best number 8 in world rugby in my humble opinion.

I'd agree there. Best player in the world over the last 12 months for me

Vermeulen is great, but Picamoles is even better.

Better carrier, offers less all round, IMO

I completely disagree. He shares all of the same qualities that Biltong has already mentioned regarding Vermeulen and has had the same sort of impact for the French team. The fact that he is a better ball carrier with fantastic hands puts him ahead.

He isn't as highly regarded because France have been terrible for years now.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree, I think Vermeulen is better at the breakdown and in defence and is not so far behind as a carrier

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Biltong wrote:For us it is Duane Vermeulen, his pilfering ability, work rate , defence, ball carrying ability and aerial skills.

Currently the best number 8 in world rugby in my humble opinion.

I'd agree there. Best player in the world over the last 12 months for me

Vermeulen is great, but Picamoles is even better.

Better carrier, offers less all round, IMO

I completely disagree. He shares all of the same qualities that Biltong has already mentioned regarding Vermeulen and has had the same sort of impact for the French team. The fact that he is a better ball carrier with fantastic hands puts him ahead.

He isn't as highly regarded because France have been terrible for years now.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I disagree, I think Vermeulen is better at the breakdown and in defence and is not so far behind as a carrier

Each to his own, I won't swop Vermeulen for any other 8 in the world.

Fair enough, but I think people forget that breakdown work and stealing opposition ball is another huge strength of Picamole's game. His overall game is very good; he isn't merely a ball carrier.

Picamoles
Read
Vermeulen

That is the order in my opinion. All 3 are key players for their respective nations.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Fair enough, but I think people forget that breakdown work and stealing opposition ball is another huge strength of Picamole's game. His overall game is very good; he isn't merely a ball carrier.

Picamoles
Read
Vermeulen

That is the order in my opinion. All 3 are key players for their respective nations.

Rory, Vermeulen was voted as the best 8 in the SH recently

Picamoles can be a bit of a brainless workhorse sometimes, used to tend to get isolated and do not quite have the skills and vision of Read . I reckon the latter would be wasted in a team like France so I am happy to stick with Picamoles who fits within our game plan perfectly. Each to his own Like Biltong said.

Biltong wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Fair enough, but I think people forget that breakdown work and stealing opposition ball is another huge strength of Picamole's game. His overall game is very good; he isn't merely a ball carrier.

Picamoles
Read
Vermeulen

That is the order in my opinion. All 3 are key players for their respective nations.

Rory, Vermeulen was voted as the best 8 in the SH recently

Vermeulen and Read are very, very close. To be perfectly honest I couldn't decide who to put first between them. I think we will potentially receive the answer to that question at the World Cup.

Is Vermeulen expected to be fully fit?

I'm not sure how Picamoles performs for France against other nations, but when Wales have played France he has not been a standout player, not just in one game but throughout the last world cup cycle (2011-15). In fact we found it quite easy to nullify him. The standouts for France have been Huget and Fofana.

The best No.8's in world rugby are Vermeulen, Read, and after his recent performance it has to be Parrise as well.

Hartley

Most essential to the game plan is is probably Brad Barrit!

Edwards
Bennett
JPR

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Biltong wrote:For us it is Duane Vermeulen, his pilfering ability, work rate , defence, ball carrying ability and aerial skills.

Currently the best number 8 in world rugby in my humble opinion.

I'd agree there. Best player in the world over the last 12 months for me

Vermeulen is great, but Picamoles is even better.

Better carrier, offers less all round, IMO

I completely disagree. He shares all of the same qualities that Biltong has already mentioned regarding Vermeulen and has had the same sort of impact for the French team. The fact that he is a better ball carrier with fantastic hands puts him ahead.

He isn't as highly regarded because France have been terrible for years now.

Wasn't Picamoles torn to shreds by Parisse in the 6N? Or was it the season before. A little overrated IMO.

Good, even very good but Duane for me is the ultimate No8 (albeit when fit).

I remember Picamoles tearing Parisse a new one a couple of years ago.

I do like both as players, but both can tend to stand in the outfield ignoring the other seven forwards.

LondonTiger wrote:I remember Picamoles tearing Parisse a new one a couple of years ago.

I do like both as players, but both can tend to stand in the outfield ignoring the other seven forwards.

Parisse is a bit of a one man army.. takes it to himself to take the lineouts, the return kicks etc. Maybe because he's the only one who can... a bit like Michael Jordan in his early bulls years... terrible players alongside, looked good, always lost. Not the best but he's been on the scene for what 12 years?

Halfpenny
Jonathan Davies
Rhys Webb

Going into the Eng game i WAS thinking that minus Hartley and Manu we could do them even at Twix, JD2 was a loss but we had a killer backline if Williams was fit. (Webb, Biggar, North, Doc, SWilliams, Half and LWilliams!)

Now, with Webb and Half crocked i reckon we're pretty even.

Gwlad wrote:Going into the Eng game i WAS thinking that minus Hartley and Manu we could do them even at Twix, JD2 was a loss but we had a killer backline if Williams was fit. (Webb, Biggar, North, Doc, SWilliams, Half and LWilliams!)

Now, with Webb and Half crocked i reckon we're pretty even.

Wasn't your dream backline near identical to the one which lost in the MS to England earlier in the year???

doctor_grey wrote:Hartley

Armitage
Tuillagi

fa0019 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Going into the Eng game i WAS thinking that minus Hartley and Manu we could do them even at Twix, JD2 was a loss but we had a killer backline if Williams was fit. (Webb, Biggar, North, Doc, SWilliams, Half and LWilliams!)

Now, with Webb and Half crocked i reckon we're pretty even.

Wasn't your dream backline near identical to the one which lost in the MS to England earlier in the year???

JD2 and Cuthbert were in, but other than that yep

For Scotland Finn Russell is key. He is the best 10 we have had since Toonie and may end up being as good as John Rutherford.
Duncan Weir on the other hand isn't anywhere near his best, which wasn't very good either, so we cant afford for Russell to get even slightly injured.

PS. IMO Reid is better than Picamoles: not as good a ball carrier but much better support player, link player and a lineout option, also passes the ball superbly. France are lucky that Damien Chouly is a magnificent offensive and defensive lineout operator. He covers Picamoles and Pape in this facet of the game.

Also, Picamoles is in the best shape I have seen him for a few years, which is why he has been so prominent in these warm up games. His lack of fitness last season (plus an early season injury ) was part of the reason he lost his spot to Chouly during the last 6N's

fa0019 wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Going into the Eng game i WAS thinking that minus Hartley and Manu we could do them even at Twix, JD2 was a loss but we had a killer backline if Williams was fit. (Webb, Biggar, North, Doc, SWilliams, Half and LWilliams!)

Now, with Webb and Half crocked i reckon we're pretty even.

Wasn't your dream backline near identical to the one which lost in the MS to England earlier in the year???

Yawn, nope. no Cuthbert or Davies or L Williams so that's 40% different but nice try. SWilliams has always had fun with England and will probably make Lawes look foolish again! A lock ripped by a centre, the horror!

You are not seriously suggesting that adding Cuthbert to a backline strengthens it?

Exiledinborders wrote:You are not seriously suggesting that adding Cuthbert to a backline strengthens it?

who me? christ no i hope i didnt!

I want him gone form the squad but they persist because of his prior hit rate and because of the paucity of options with experience they may persist with him.