Yet Another Sam Burgess Discussion Thread

by **LondonTiger** Mon 7 Sep 2015 - 9:37

First topic message reminder :

Sam Burgess, demigod or not?

by **LondonTiger** Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 11:15

yappysnap wrote:I would be stunned if anyone exploits Burgess that much tbh. He's not a prop in the backline, he's not stupid and he's got solid players around him. Heck what's the point in having two workhorses like Woodshaw in the team of they can't help out!

I think it's mainly just people's fear of the unknown/league players.

Rugby league fans will say that is exactly what he is Run

by lostinwales Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 11:16

LondonTiger wrote:
yappysnap wrote:I would be stunned if anyone exploits Burgess that much tbh. He's not a prop in the backline, he's not stupid and he's got solid players around him. Heck what's the point in having two workhorses like Woodshaw in the team of they can't help out!

I think it's mainly just people's fear of the unknown/league players.

Rugby league fans will say that is exactly what he is

by nlpnlp Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 12:44

Burgess may not be a prop in the sense of Jason Leonard or Fran Cotton because rugby league don't scrum, but he is 100% a forward and not a back ala Sonny Bill Williams, Andy Farrell or Kevin Sinfield.

by Gooseberry Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 13:31

nlpnlp wrote: Andy Farrell

He was better in the pack in Union mind Rolling Eyes

by BamBam Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 13:58

Weren't SBW, Andy Farrell and Sinfield all league forwards too?

by WELL-PAST-IT Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 14:04

Is there a difference between a back and a forward in League?

Ther is no set piece to speak of, so the vast majority of the game is open play. You have big boys and not so big boys but there is no specialist skills required to be a league forward as there is minimal contact in the scrum, no rucks and mauls and no lineouts.

That the big boys truck it up 4 times than it goes wide twice by the nsbb and is then kicked is just a disparity in size of the players of the players running with the ball, nothing to do with being a forward. Big boys tend to be slower than not so big boys and have less manaouverability, that is a fact of life for all but a few.

by BamBam Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 14:18

Yep, thats my point, nlpnlp said Burgess was a forward and the others were backs!

by No 7&1/2 Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 14:19

Only Sinfield is or was a back in league out of those wasn't he?

by lostinwales Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 14:31

Think Farrell played both

by **LondonTiger** Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 14:34

Pretty sure Andy Farrell first featured for Wigan as a back, but soon moved to loose forward and eventually to prop.

SBW has always been a loose forward.

Not huge differences, but forwards tend to be bigger and used more as a battering ram, other than loose forward who is often the secondary playmaker after the half back 9though hooker is often a playmaker too).

by No 7&1/2 Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 14:38

To be fair and back to the original point he is a flanker in the backline!

by **LondonTiger** Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 14:46

No 7&1/2 wrote:To be fair and back to the original point he is a flanker in the backline!

We may think that, but for now he is deemed a centre. Very much doubt Bath will ever start him there again though.

by Gooseberry Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 15:07

Tom Youngs is a center, Slade and Goode fly halves, and James Haskell a certified idiot.

And so it goes.

by lostinwales Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 15:09

Blind side flanker is going to be very competitive for us in the next few years but Burgess should be right up there, especially if he learns to do anything useful in the lineout.

by fa0019 Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 15:56

In the old days it was easy to distinguish backs from forwards. Today, they're all 6'1-6'4 and 15-17st hybrids.

Players like Roberts could play in the backrow if he wanted to. Players like Croft could play wing if he wanted to. Pierre Spies did.

Burgess will never be a great blindside. He can be a great centre.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 15:58

He's already a very good 6. Needs to add the lineout to his game so a shame he's missed the pre season with Bath. He'll never be played at centre after this so he'll just be mediocre.

by fa0019 Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 16:04

"If you say potato" huh 7.5?

by lostinwales Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 16:20

He's an 18 stone lunatic with a fantastic work rate and who loves the physical stuff. Given some continued development of his forward skills he will be an excellent 6

by fa0019 Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 16:23

lostinwales wrote:He's an 18 stone lunatic with a fantastic work rate and who loves the physical stuff. Given some continued development of his forward skills he will be an excellent 6

Sounds very similar to SBW, Jamie Roberts, Jean De Villiers, Ma'a Nonu, Bastareaud etc to me.

by ChequeredJersey Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 16:36

fa0019 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:He's an 18 stone lunatic with a fantastic work rate and who loves the physical stuff. Given some continued development of his forward skills he will be an excellent 6

Sounds very similar to SBW, Jamie Roberts, Jean De Villiers, Ma'a Nonu, Bastareaud etc to me.

Except slower. And Bast shouldn't be on that list

by fa0019 Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 16:44

ChequeredJersey wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:He's an 18 stone lunatic with a fantastic work rate and who loves the physical stuff. Given some continued development of his forward skills he will be an excellent 6

Sounds very similar to SBW, Jamie Roberts, Jean De Villiers, Ma'a Nonu, Bastareaud etc to me.

Except slower. And Bast shouldn't be on that list

He's about 5-10kg heavier than those guys... if he was about 110kg he'd be just as quick.

I would put money on him winning a foot race with roberts mind.... now.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 16:47

I say potato you d put it in a fruit salad. The guys already looking a very good 6 will play there for Bath and isnt a very good centre and wont get the chance there in future.

by fa0019 Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 16:51

No 7&1/2 wrote:I say potato you d put it in a fruit salad. The guys already looking a very good 6 will play there for Bath and isnt a very good centre and wont get the chance there in future.

Interesting that the England camp all think he's one though.

by Barney McGrew did it Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 17:07

fa0019 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I say potato you d put it in a fruit salad. The guys already looking a very good 6 will play there for Bath and isnt a very good centre and wont get the chance there in future.

Interesting that the England camp all think he's one though.

It's not unheard of for England to get the positioning of players wrong. Where would I start...

by BamBam Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 17:12

Bold prediction - Burgess will be starting 6 for the Lions in 2017

(please don't hurt me if I'm wrong)

by ChequeredJersey Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 17:26

fa0019 wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:He's an 18 stone lunatic with a fantastic work rate and who loves the physical stuff. Given some continued development of his forward skills he will be an excellent 6

Sounds very similar to SBW, Jamie Roberts, Jean De Villiers, Ma'a Nonu, Bastareaud etc to me.

Except slower. And Bast shouldn't be on that list

He's about 5-10kg heavier than those guys... if he was about 110kg he'd be just as quick.

I would put money on him winning a foot race with roberts mind.... now.

I meant more in terms of quality

by ChequeredJersey Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 17:27

fa0019 wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
lostinwales wrote:He's an 18 stone lunatic with a fantastic work rate and who loves the physical stuff. Given some continued development of his forward skills he will be an excellent 6

Sounds very similar to SBW, Jamie Roberts, Jean De Villiers, Ma'a Nonu, Bastareaud etc to me.

Except slower. And Bast shouldn't be on that list

He's about 5-10kg heavier than those guys... if he was about 110kg he'd be just as quick.

I would put money on him winning a foot race with roberts mind.... now.

So he's bigger but slower than these very big backs?

Sounds a bit like... A... Loose... Forward?

by ChequeredJersey Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 17:28

BamBam wrote:Bold prediction - Burgess will be starting 6 for the Lions in 2017

(please don't hurt me if I'm wrong)

Muy bold

by No 7&1/2 Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 17:43

fa0019 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I say potato you d put it in a fruit salad. The guys already looking a very good 6 will play there for Bath and isnt a very good centre and wont get the chance there in future.

Interesting that the England camp all think he's one though.

A stop gap before Tuilagi returns. Im guessing you dont watch much prem rugby but tune in this coming season as it should be a big one for a few players you dont rate.

by ChequeredJersey Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 18:25

No 7&1/2 wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:I say potato you d put it in a fruit salad. The guys already looking a very good 6 will play there for Bath and isnt a very good centre and wont get the chance there in future.

Interesting that the England camp all think he's one though.

A stop gap before Tuilagi returns. Im guessing you dont watch much prem rugby but tune in this coming season as it should be a big one for a few players you dont rate.

Assuming any of them are actually NOT injured

by englandglory4ever Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 20:02

There's always one or two that think the earth is flat. Burgess is a fantastically talented rugby player. He could play almost anywhere. But centre is his best position. At 12 he is destructive in defence and a powerful ball carrier and ball handler. It's a shame some people can't see it. They must
be rugby blind.

by lostinwales Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 20:28

englandglory4ever wrote:There's always one or two that think the earth is flat. Burgess is a fantastically talented rugby player. He could play almost anywhere. But centre is his best position. At 12 he is destructive in defence and a powerful ball carrier and ball handler. It's a shame some people can't see it. They must
be rugby blind.

What's better? Just plain blind or so starry eyed you can't see anything else anyway.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 21:05

Why do you feel hes a better centre than 6?

by englandglory4ever Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 21:22

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why do you feel hes a better centre than 6?

Mainly because he has more space and more opportunities to use his attacking skills. Basically Burgess running hard at a defence is an exciting prospect. His ability to knock defenders back, create holes, give offloads is game breaking. Just ask SBW what's it like to be run over by Burgess. He is a massive physical presence. Can't see what his detractors get off on. Jealousy I suspect.

by ChequeredJersey Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 21:25

Why would anyone be jealous of Burgess but not the other top class players at the World Cup?

by ChequeredJersey Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 21:26

Seems a bizarre accusation

by No 7&1/2 Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 21:40

So you feel he isnt as an effective carrier in the tight then? Have to say I d say the opposite and like to see him offer great tight carrying and more chance to tackle his socks off. He also surprised me with his breakdown work. Far more involved there and playing to his strengths. He ll be vying fort he 6 spot post world cup as long as he offers a lineout option.

by englandglory4ever Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 21:52

I think he is a very effective carrier. Why do you think he is a 6 ? Surely just tackling and being tackled in the tight is just not using his strength. He's a player that needs a little space to thrive and show his wares.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 21:57

Reasons above. I would have overlooked his lack of a lineout option and included him in the squad and worked with him on it in the hope he became decent.

by kingelderfield Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 22:59

He is a 6. He has the potential to be an excellent international 6 and not since HRH have we had a 6 with the attacking ability to threaten so decisively.

As for now I can understand the coaches misconception that he is a replacement to the untried Tuilagi 12 option with Joseph outside. By the by Cipriani has been the form 10 for pass selection and so inclusive (large) centre play - he's been doing just that for Sale all season.

The options Burgess will provide will be beyond Farell's pay grade with only Ford and Slade able to read and execute the options with the necessary guile.

young, ford(cipriani)nowell(wade)barritt(slade or 36 as tuilagi is injured/retired)joseph, may and brown(watson).

by majesticimperialman Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 23:33

I know Burgess is in the squad now, but i am still not sure he should be to be honest.

What happend to Eastman, not too sure on Cipriani either....still think he (Cipriani) deserve more of a chance of being in the squad than Burgess does.

by aucklandlaurie Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 23:34

Got to say that I havent seen Burgess play a game of Rugby union, but I have seen him play a number of games of League (and I'm not talking about on TV). I just cant envisage him as a second five in union, to me he would be a blind side. he is a completely different package to Sonny Bill.

by aucklandlaurie Fri 11 Sep 2015 - 23:34

Got to say that I havent seen Burgess play a game of Rugby union, but I have seen him play a number of games of League (and I'm not talking about on TV). I just cant envisage him as a second five in union, to me he would be a blind side. he is a completely different package to Sonny Bill.

by Gwlad Sat 12 Sep 2015 - 2:42

aucklandlaurie wrote: Got to say that I havent seen Burgess play a game of Rugby union, but I have seen him play a number of games of League (and I'm not talking about on TV). I just cant envisage him as a second five in union, to me he would be a blind side. he is a completely different package to Sonny Bill.

agreed, no hands/awareness or able to pick lines yet but PERFECT fro an england-model back line where centre has really become anonymous and they still play 10 man. In defense rushes up and stops distribution out wide. And it works. In attack he carries up or links and fixes defense. His ability to maintain his channel means he can act as a magnet in the centre channel to attract defenders who just can't handle him. Also good for hitting rucks out wide. Would never work in NZ but Eng it can/does.

by thomh Sat 12 Sep 2015 - 8:28

I don't think even Lancaster imagines Burgess being at 12 for long. He openly said that it was his lack of lineout ability that ruled him out of playing 6 this time, but Bath are going to sort that eventually. Also, it just happens that England are more in need of a physical centre than another flanker right now.

by maestegmafia Sat 12 Sep 2015 - 8:55

lostinwales wrote:Blind side flanker is going to be very competitive for us in the next few years but Burgess should be right up there, especially if he learns to do anything useful in the lineout.

Unless Burgess is a resounding success at this RWC with Jonny Wilkinson-esq status, he will be back in the ARL within six months.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 12 Sep 2015 - 8:55

Something I usually do, but have forgotten so far:

Origin of the Squad

Northampton 1 - Lawes
Bath 0
Leicester 4 - T Youngs, Cole, B Youngs, Ford
Saracens 4 - George, Kruis, Farrell, Goode
Exeter 2 - Slade, Nowell
Wasps 4 - Webber, Launchbury, Haskell BillyV
Sale 1 - Wigglesworth
Quins 3 - Marler, Robshaw, Brown
Gloucester 1 - May
London Irish 2 - Joseph, Watson
Newcastle 3 - Brookes, Wilson, Parling
Bristol 1 - Mako
Worcester 1 - Wood
Leeds 1 - Care
Scarlets 1 - Morgan
RL 1 - Burgess
SA 1 - Barritt

by thomh Sat 12 Sep 2015 - 10:52

So a resounding success for Bath's recruitment and senior coaching, but not so for their academy output. Even Eastmond and Attwood wouldn't have counted.

by englandglory4ever Sat 12 Sep 2015 - 12:29

He is a 12. How can he be a 6 with no lineout skills? He can't lift or jump or do the necessary work around the fringes of the lineout. Blimey, the bloke Croft was only ever in the side because he was good in the lineout. The rest of the game he hung out on the wing. Burgess' skills are in the wide open channels where he thrives.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 12 Sep 2015 - 12:46

I think the majority here see what he does at 6 his carrying his tackling his breakdown work as a real plus and thats minimised in midfield. Ive not been as impressed with carrying wider, hes had some issues taking the ball at speed and seems to get out of position in the backs moves to easily. I thought with some intensive training his lineout could be brought up to speed. So if the lineout works you d see him more as a 6? I see you ve changed your previous post to sayh e cant worki n the tight. Why? You seem pretty jealous of the quality work he does at flanker.

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