Yet Another Sam Burgess Discussion Thread

by **LondonTiger** Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:37 am

First topic message reminder :

Sam Burgess, demigod or not?

by Scottrf Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:50 pm

Itoje was immense at MK against Saints to be fair, was very happy when he saw yellow.

by Geordie Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:48 pm

beshocked wrote:

Clark is a good club player but he's not really shown he can cut it at international level just yet.
.

But he hasn't...hes played once for the 1st XV and that was in a WC warm up game.

That's my point....who knows if he can cut it or not.

by Geordie Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:52 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Itoje came on as a lock didn't he?

So we're Clarks had enough chances at international level now? Incidentally for Itoje i think the real immediate comp remains the lock who can play 6 and i'd say SLater is better currently.

And yet who knows if he can handle international level..as hes never been looked at either..... Rolling Eyes

by DaveM Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:53 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Clark is a good club player but he's not really shown he can cut it at international level just yet.
.

But he hasn't...hes played once for the 1st XV and that was in a WC warm up game.

That's my point....who knows if he can cut it or not.

The coaches who've watched him in training for many weeks this summer, not to mention in a recent game? SL has followed his career since age-group level.

by DaveM Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:59 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Dave, the critisism of Lawes is.....what is he adding? I'd hardly call that weird.

I forgot he's been playing the last few games. He adds little around the park bar the odd tackle on a back. He lacks grunt and often goes backwards when he carries.

He needs to start contributing more as we're carrying too many players in the pack already (Front row esp Youngs, Lawes).

I don't agree with any of that. He's playing fine. What's he contributing? You mean apart from the line-out work, the tackles, the rucking and the carrying?

I think this board is obsessed with finding a mythical forward who will always make 5 metres when carrying, no matter how well set the defence.........

by Sgt_Pooly Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:02 am

What line out work? Has he took a ball since Parling came back? He's made a few cover tackles on backs but this is because he's normally in the channels rather than rucking. His carrying has been poor to say the least.

Parling has outplayed in Lawes in pretty much every aspect of lock play imo.

by Geordie Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:34 am

DaveM wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
beshocked wrote:

Clark is a good club player but he's not really shown he can cut it at international level just yet.
.

But he hasn't...hes played once for the 1st XV and that was in a WC warm up game.

That's my point....who knows if he can cut it or not.

The coaches who've watched him in training for many weeks this summer, not to mention in a recent game? SL has followed his career since age-group level.

Then why have him in the squad?

Surely you should have a squad where EVERYONE is able to fight for a spot?

by Gooseberry Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:36 am

Jeez stop hijacking the repetitve arguments about hookers with repetitive arguments about locks on the repetitive arguments about Burgess thread.

Look there some real news to get into repetitive argumenst about, Burgess and Farrell will be starting against Wales.

Prepare for the entire internet to meltdown.

by Geordie Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:42 am

I have no problem with that Gooseberry.

Burgess looked excellent when he came on and Ford has been dropped because his game management wasn't up to scratch - the coaches must have watched Sexton v Canada.

My problem is...how does Ford learn game management other than playing?

by No 7&1/2 Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:46 am

What did Farrell do which Ford didn't or couldn't?

by Geordie Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:54 am

When the game got messy Ford should have played percentage rugby...pin Fiji back in their half., but that's things that young players will learn with game time.

I wouldn't have made that change...I would have kept ford on especially with two lumps outside him now and use Burgess properly with a playmaker.

Im just trying to reason why Lancaster would make the change....but im wondering a lot about Lancaster at the moment.

by WELL-PAST-IT Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:58 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:What did Farrell do which Ford didn't or couldn't?

It's not what he did, it's what he didn't, like mess up and kick aimlessly.

I suspect it is more the game plan for Wales. Ford had a torrid time Friday, but largely because of the ball he was getting, high, low, and slow. Youngs is the player we should be criticising.

by No 7&1/2 Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:59 am

Ok. I didn't think Farrell played that much differently when he came on though but had better ball and burgess at least going forward. I like Farrell so no too fussed about him in bar the fact Ford doesn't deserve to be dropped. Is it coincidence stodgy backs come out to play with Barritt at 12? When England started to play Barritt was off.

by Gooseberry Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:08 am

I personaly think its a disgrace that Jamie George hasnt been given a go at 10, how do we know he wont be any good if he isnt given a run of games there?
I havent seen him make a single mistake at 10 ( oe 13) for that matter through the entire domestic season.

by Geordie Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:16 am

7.5

I would also add...if they weren't happy with Fords man management...ie game control...kicking into the corners for touch etc...

Then where was the on pitch leadership to guide the young lad.

Why did Robshaw or Wood or Parling not take it upon themselves to give him a bit of guidance?

by beshocked Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:33 am

Sgt Pooly I am not inconsistent.

To be honest I don't know you interpret "better". Is it having a player you would rather have in your club or first XV? Is it someone whose style of play you prefer?

If you think Clark is a better player than Itoje currently, fine we can agree to disagree. If the majority of posters want to disagree then that's fine too. Personally I thought that Clark was far better than Itoje up till the latter stages of last season when Clark faltered and Itoje had a strong end to the season.

I think they are quite different players.

Clark is just one of those players I think is a good AP club man but don't think he will make it at international level unless he seriously improves.

Itoje might be less experienced but in his first season, particularly in the latter stages I have been impressed - a mere 20 year old breaking into the Saracens team (not through injuries but by being trusted by Mccall). I think he'll go far but he needs to be trusted by Lancaster.

no 7 & 1/2 Slater was injured for most of the season, he didn't have much form. You can call Slater "better" but what does that even mean in your opinion?

DaveM back to training being the most important reason a player is picked......

Gooseberry surprised if that's true.

Starting Burgess is very ballsy. It's a big risk. Could backfire.

Farrell is less of a risk - personally I would have given Ford and Barritt another go though.

Geordiefalcon never been impressed by Robshaw as captain, very good player but still think his leadership is questionable.

by No 7&1/2 Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:34 am

I'm just going to take a deep breath, drink heavily through the game and hope for the best. It's won't be the 1st time I'm wrong if the backs click and it won't be the last.

by No 7&1/2 Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:38 am

I think most peoples meaning when they say better is what the word means. More effective.

by beshocked Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:49 am

Surely it depends what your team needs. Both players are different.

It's like comparing let's say Farrell and Ford - both have different strengths and weaknesses.

"Better" can be subjective. Balance is important too.

If it's Farrell-Burgess-Barritt I think it's pretty clear the balance is all wrong. To be honest I think Farrell Sr is the brain child of that backline selection -not hard to make a case why he would pick them!

by fa0019 Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:54 am

The first thing England should think about is that in a dogfight you need to properly equip yourself.

You need a world class kicker. Farrell qualifies, Ford doesn't.

Take a look at the alternative

Ford, Barritt, Slade. I would shudder at the very thought.. the line would be as strong as the French in 1940.

The big question is where England score points.

by nobbled Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:58 am

Well, I think we can agree that it will be a "physical" backline.

by fa0019 Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:01 am

For me if England can get one over in the front 5 it will be game over as that sort of physical threat will cause havoc. But they haven't been dominating recently, they've struggled a little vs. Fiji (unheard of) and France etc.

Its like Lancaster has played a Gatland card... I'm not sure if Gatland has the players to exploit it though. Amos perhaps but he won't pick him.

Will Wales counter with Tipuric over Lydiate? Smart money says no.

by beshocked Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:03 am

fa0019 win the territory battle and the points will come.

Pressure,pressure, pressure. Force Wales into mistakes. If Wales make mistakes then opportunities will come - let's say Wales throw a loose pass and May pounces on it.....

Hit Wales hard, physically smash them, the English bench is better. Drain the Welsh physically and mentally then bam!

From the bench bring on Mako,Haskell,Care,Ford etc. Completely change the dynamic of the team - up the tempo in the last 20.

by **LondonTiger** Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:04 am

fa0019 wrote:The first thing England should think about is that in a dogfight you need to properly equip yourself.

You need a world class kicker. Farrell qualifies, Ford doesn't.

Farrell is marginally better at goal kicking, but only marginally - and far worse as a tactical kicker.

you can either try and win a game, or worry about the opposition and try not to lose it. We are doing the latter.

by beshocked Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:17 am

Londontiger disagree about Farrell being a far worse tactical kicker.

Ford was shocking at tactical kicking vs Ireland for example unless you think kicking to Zebo again and again, allowing him to run it back each time is good play...

Ford is a very good attacking 10 but sometimes he loses control of matches.

Sometimes I just want Ford to just take the game by the scruff of the neck.

England are still trying to win the game they are just trying it in a different manner to what you want.

To be honest I think Lancaster's hand has been forced by the injury to Joseph.

by No 7&1/2 Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:24 am

Better is subjective, hence you think Itoje is better than Slater.

by englandglory4ever Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:22 am

Farrell has got much more distance than Ford. That makes him better. He has also much improved his touch finding kicks. That makes him at least on par with Ford. Overall Farrell is a better kicker.

by Mad for Chelsea Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:32 am

Telegraph now reporting that Joseph could be out for the rest of the pool stages. If true, that is a big blow...

by **seanmichaels** Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:33 am

Alan Brazil got a text saying Joseph out of the world cup.

by Geordie Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:39 am

Joseph out would be a blow.

Barritt, Slade and Burgess would be the main centres then.

by beshocked Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:44 am

I expect Burrell would be called up.

by Gooseberry Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:47 am

Yeah burrell is a given if josephs injury is enough to keep him out of the tournament. As cover for 13 he has a lot better chance of doing something useful than as third choice 12.

by lostinwales Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:01 pm

'To lose one outstanding outside centre may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness'

Hmmm. Well lets hope they give Slade a chance. At least Burrell was pretty good at 13 in 2014.

by Geordie Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:03 pm

Burrell was better at 13 than he was at 12 for England.

Hope Slade gets a run out at some point then. I think he looks a real classy player...but isn't soft either...ie he makes his tackles.

by GunsGerms Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:42 am

Interesting piece by Gordan Darcy on Sam Burgess:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-sam-burgess-is-the-blunder-that-could-bury-england-1.2371821

It really was a bizarre decision to bring him to the WC and according to Darcy it has backfired on England.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:59 am

GunsGerms wrote:Interesting piece by Gordan Darcy on Sam Burgess:

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/gordon-d-arcy-sam-burgess-is-the-blunder-that-could-bury-england-1.2371821

It really was a bizarre decision to bring him to the WC and according to Darcy it has backfired on England.

You can't really argue with any of that

by GunsGerms Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:09 am

Indeed. It really does highlight how strange it was for Lancaster to pick Burgess after only one cap in a warm up game. That for me was a much worse decision that Robshaws decision to go down the line.

Burgess is learning how to be a centre in key world cup games!!! Unforgivable.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:12 am

I can't fault Robshaw for that decision, it was a tough kick on the wrong side.

Burgess should never have been involved, I've said that all along. I can't help but think Burgess was given assurances before signing for Bath.

by GunsGerms Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:19 am

I dont blame you for thinking that but if that was the case it is insane that he wasnt even picked on the bench for the six nations.

by Barney McGrew did it Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:23 am

A double whammy by SL - picking an RU rookie for a RWC, then compounding the sausage-up by forgetting he's a flanker in the making not a centre. A triple whammy if you pair him with Barritt or Farrell as partner.

What would have been interesting is if he could pair him up in the midfield with Croft. Finally SL's dream come true - a team full of flankers. There IS a job for Stewie post RWC - head coach for England RL side.

by BamBam Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:31 am

Barney McGrew did it wrote:A double whammy by SL - picking an RU rookie for a RWC, then compounding the sausage-up by forgetting he's a flanker in the making not a centre. A triple whammy if you pair him with Barritt or Farrell as partner.

What would have been interesting is if he could pair him up in the midfield with Croft. Finally SL's dream come true - a team full of flankers. There IS a job for Stewie post RWC - head coach for England RL side.

Would have more ball carrying and playmaking ability than a partnership with Barritt Run

by SecretFly Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:36 am

So it seems Burgess will feck off back to League the first chance he gets after this WC?
He just seems like he's realised 'slammin' ain't as easy as he thought it would be in Union. Union has a hefty bunch of slammers of their own. They don't quake when they see big boys.

by Geordie Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:55 am

picking an RU rookie for a RWC, then compounding the sausage-up by forgetting he's a flanker in the making not a centre.

Pretty much sums it up for me.

However I thought he played alright on Saturday.

He wont need to play at 12 for England anymore though as we have a host of kids coming through who MUST be brought through immediately post WC.

In fact I think there needs a be a bit of a clear out (not a mass one) just a few deadwood and bring in a few JWC winners.

Players like Haskell, Parling, Barritt etc

by **LondonTiger** Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:01 pm

Would not describe Parling as dead wood.

However I would clear out anyone who will not make the next WC unless they are clearly better than the up and comers.

by Geordie Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:38 pm

Ok maybe not deadwood, but I wouldn't be keeping him on.

We don't want to just bin 90% of the squad mind as you say the experienced guys may well be playing well.

From the original extended squad for this World Cup you could make an argument for all of the following to be replaced straight away...but more likely to happen gradually over the next year or so.

Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Nick Easter (Harlequins)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
James Haskell (Wasps)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Matt Mullan (Wasps)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
~~David Strettle (Saracens)~~ - Already gone
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

by **Notch** Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:43 pm

Gordon D'Arcy wrote:I only started playing centre in 2004. It took until the 2007 World Cup before I felt properly attuned to the nuances of the position and comfortable playing Test matches in the 12 jersey.

Sonny Bill Williams had a daily tutorial from Tana Umaga – one the greatest centres ever – for two years at Toulon before returning to New Zealand and winning his first cap.

Sam Burgess only arrived at a Bath training session last October.

Gordon D'Arcy not pulling any punches! Shocked

by **LondonTiger** Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:44 pm

Ashton's agent has been hawking him around T14, with Saracens apparently deperate to offload him and reduce wage bill.

No takers atm, but if he goes we can permanently scrub him.

Would exclude immediately:

Barritt, Dickson, Easter, Haskell, Myler, wiggy

by Geordie Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:46 pm

Can I add Twelvetrees to that aswell please LT

by Geordie Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:48 pm

LondonTiger wrote:Ashton's agent has been hawking him around T14, with Saracens apparently deperate to offload him and reduce wage bill.

No takers atm, but if he goes we can permanently scrub him.

Would exclude immediately:

Barritt, Dickson, Easter, Haskell, Myler, wiggy

And who would your choice of replacements be?

by **LondonTiger** Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:56 pm

Worthy of another thread I suspect, but my EPS for the 6Ns would look something like:

Props: Marler, Mako, Corbs, cole, Brookes, Wilson
Hookers: Hartley, Youngs, George
Second Row: Lawes, Launchbury, Kruis, Slater
Back Row: Robshaw, Wood, Kvesic, Vunipola, Morgan

Half backs: Youngs, Care, Simpson, Ford, Farrell, Slade
Centres: JJ, Manu (if fit),
Back 3: May, Watson, Nowell, Brown, Foden

Saxons:

Auterac, LCD, Thomas, Kitchener, symonds, Itoje, Clifford, Ewers, Robson, burns, Yarde, Stephenson, Daly, Roku, Goode.

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