RWC 15 - Pool D - France Ireland, Italy, Romania, Canada

    
Teams

Ireland (6) [10/1]
France (7) [18/1]
Italy (14) [2500/1]
Romania (17) [5000/1]
Canada (18) [5000/1]

Fixtures

19 Sep Ireland v Canada
19 Sep France v Italy
23 Sep France v Romania
26 Sep Italy v Canada
27 Sep Ireland v Romania
1 Oct France v Canada
4 Oct Ireland v Italy
6 Oct Canada v Romania
11 Oct Italy v Romania
11 Oct France v Ireland

The pool with 50% of the Six Nations teams competing in it.    

Romania are one ranking higher than Canada and having won their last two most recent games against them, they are likely to be fighting Canada for avoiding bottom spot on 6 Oct.

France get a somewhat tough match up first with the Italians likely to be at their prickly best and their game against Wales still in their minds.   France have the advantage of a 10 day rest up from their match against Canada before they play the likely pool decider against Ireland.  However, if Canada rest some of their players for their more 'important' match against Romania 5 days later, France may not get a good performance work-out before their pool decider.

Ireland can expect a bruising going over in their first match against Canada with Kiwi, Kieran Crowley, looking for his troops to take advantage of any rustiness in the Irish side, although Crowley may also be eyeing up their second match against Italy a week later as a more realistic prospect of gaining some points.

Italy meet Ireland in their third match on 4 Oct who may have one eye on their likely decider against France 7 days later.   Ireland should have enough to put them away but it could come at a cost.  The shorter turnaround time frame may tell against them, particularly if they've been smashed about a bit by Italy's upfront men.

France might do just enough in their opening games to secure the wins and then be primed and ready for Ireland in the second last pool match of the RWC to top the pool.

Or could Italy catch France cold in their opening match, and open up the possibility of another pool to be decided by match points.

New Zealanders seem to be divided on who they want/don't want to meet in the quarters from this pool - France for 2007 revenge say some, Ireland because they'll be easier, say others.

Have at it.

Whilst the team against England was almost first choice (probably missing Rob Kearney, Healy and possibly Henderson from being our best 15) I think he has thus far been very conservative tactically and strategically. I think come the big group games against Italy and France we are going to see Schmidt play a few aces. I really hope that is the case, because the first half against England had such apathy to it form the point of view of our performance. Lets not forget that this guy has delivered back to back Heineken Cups with Leinster and back to back 6N titles in his first two seasons with Ireland. He is too good for the last two performances against England and Wales to be the ammunition we are bringing to the world cup. I'm still backing him to take us to the semi-finals for the first time.

I agree Dodger. Watching the highlights the other night, I felt that Ireland didn't really bother trying to get out of third gear whereas England went hell for leather.

If they were to meet in a proper competitive match, I think Ireland would step up another couple of levels and quite easily beat England.

Obviously no Irish fans on 606v2......

The Irieland France match is going to be a humdinger. Ireland may be favourites but I doubt the French will pay attention to it, neither team would want to meet the All Blacks in the quarters, so I reckon that is the most important pool match of all the pools

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:I agree Dodger. Watching the highlights the other night, I felt that Ireland didn't really bother trying to get out of third gear whereas England went hell for leather.

If they were to meet in a proper competitive match, I think Ireland would step up another couple of levels and quite easily beat England.

With what gameplan?

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:I agree Dodger. Watching the highlights the other night, I felt that Ireland didn't really bother trying to get out of third gear whereas England went hell for leather.

If they were to meet in a proper competitive match, I think Ireland would step up another couple of levels and quite easily beat England.

With what gameplan?

The Beat England Quite Easily gameplan obviously.

It's in Joe's desk, third drawer from the bottom.

Do keep up.

Pot Hale wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:I agree Dodger. Watching the highlights the other night, I felt that Ireland didn't really bother trying to get out of third gear whereas England went hell for leather.

If they were to meet in a proper competitive match, I think Ireland would step up another couple of levels and quite easily beat England.

With what gameplan?

The Beat England Quite Easily gameplan obviously.  

It's in Joe's desk, third drawer from the bottom.

Do keep up.

Ah, I forgot about the desk. Sorry

Not only does the loser of Ireland France have to play NZ but they'll also have a shorter turnaround and NZ will not have to get out of second gear in their group.

profitius wrote:Not only does the loser of Ireland France have to play NZ but they'll also have a shorter turnaround and NZ will not have to get out of second gear in their group.

NZ v France quarter final at the Millennium Stadium with Wayne Barnes as the referee. A real possibility. I am having nightmares already.

P.s. if it happens I'll personally be leading a crusade never to allow another world cup finals game to be awarded to a stadium in Wales.

Ireland will be hurting after that performance, no matter what anyone says!

Actually thinking about it Ireland havn't played well at all during the warm ups, beating a scratch Wales team at a canter they have been outplayed twice and matched by Scotland.

This may be due to Schmidt playing a limited gameplan, I think Gatland is doing similar.

That said I think so little of this France team I don't think theyre a real contender for Ireland, there is just no quality from 9 backwards, and at times they look pathetically clueless. France 8 will be a big fight, but they will have to gift wrap opportunities for the backline!

Biltong wrote:The Irieland France match is going to be a humdinger. Ireland may be favourites but I doubt the French will pay attention to it, neither team would want to meet the All Blacks in the quarters, so I reckon that is the most important pool match of all the pools

Yes it will, I think Italy will have a real go as well.

France definitely have the capacity to go up a few levels in a one off game and are well capable of beating Ireland, no doubt about it - they could really dominate up front and they have very dangerous backs.

I think though that if Ireland take it one game at a time they should win the pool but big improvements are needed from the warm ups, and even the 6N.

This is Schmidts first RWC but many of the squad have experience of previous campaigns, so have to hope that the warm ups aren't a sign of another botched preseason and that we've learnt from past tournaments.

Schmidts record in cup competitions is incredible so I trust he knows what he's doing and has a clear plan for each team we will face. Whether that will be good enough we will see.

rodders wrote:

Biltong wrote:The Irieland France match is going to be a humdinger. Ireland may be favourites but I doubt the French will pay attention to it, neither team would want to meet the All Blacks in the quarters, so I reckon that is the most important pool match of all the pools

Yes it will, I think Italy will have a real go as well.

France definitely have the capacity to go up a few levels in a one off game and are well capable of beating Ireland, no doubt about it - they could really dominate up front and they have very dangerous backs.

I think though that if Ireland take it one game at a time they should win the pool but big improvements are needed from the warm ups, and even the 6N.

This is Schmidts first RWC but many of the squad have experience of previous campaigns, so have to hope that the warm ups aren't a sign of another botched preseason and that we've learnt from past tournaments.

Schmidts record in cup competitions is incredible so I trust he knows what he's doing and has a clear plan for each team we will face. Whether that will be good enough we will see.

Who are these dangerous backs France have?

Huget, Basterau, Fofana, Mermoz and Spedding aren't too shabby for a start....

rodders wrote:Huget, Basterau, Fofana, Mermoz and Spedding aren't too shabby for a start....

Basteraud actually moves like the prop he's looked like for 2 years now, he offers so little to that backline I am still baffled as to why he's there!

Mermoz is 4 years out of date, and is a good clubman at best.

Spedding is on par with someone like Kirtchner, or Alex Cuthbert, and is a draft in because theres no quality there, he's a stopgap.

Fofana was world class 2 years ago, but has really offered nothing since his Ashton flap try, he was moved around and over targetted, he has the quality, but no platform to provide it.

Huget is the only real threat France have, and he's constantly playing in a disjointed backline, it would scare me seeing him turn out for someone like England or Ireland who both play off great 10's and a usefull centre distraction.

I'd write off Fofana at your peril! He's been poor because France have been gash. If the pack keep doing well and Freddie isn't toooo flaky, Fofana is dangerous

Out of interest, whatever happened to Buttin as an FB option?

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:I agree Dodger. Watching the highlights the other night, I felt that Ireland didn't really bother trying to get out of third gear whereas England went hell for leather.

If they were to meet in a proper competitive match, I think Ireland would step up another couple of levels and quite easily beat England.

With what gameplan?

The same gameplan that won them two successive Championships.

ChequeredJersey wrote:I'd write off Fofana at your peril! He's been poor because France have been gash. If the pack keep doing well and Freddie isn't toooo flaky, Fofana is dangerous

Out of interest, whatever happened to Buttin as an FB option?

I wouldn't write him off, but show me a decent performance from him for 2 seasons? He thrives on front foot ball and putting half gaps nearby, with the 9/10 combo options France have they'll spend more time adjusting their feet than hitting gaps!

In 3 warm up games the backline has made a very few handfull of line breaks that didn't stem from forward pressure, which I don't think they will get enough of V Ireland. France look shaky at home and poor away.

The key element to Frances downfall is the way they are drafting in such low quality SH players such as Spedding, Kocket, Le Roux and Nakaitaci who if we are being honest would struggle to make other home nations squads. It wreaks of sheer panic, and reminds me of the post 2003 years with England who would give anyone who qualified and beat a man in the prem a shout.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:I agree Dodger. Watching the highlights the other night, I felt that Ireland didn't really bother trying to get out of third gear whereas England went hell for leather.

If they were to meet in a proper competitive match, I think Ireland would step up another couple of levels and quite easily beat England.

With what gameplan?

The same gameplan that won them two successive Championships.

Ah the one that's been worked out and relies on the opposition back 3 not being able to catch, and that actually, as we are discussed beating England, saw them LOSE last time they were at Twickers in the 6N? Good


I do suspect that Schmidt has another game plan waiting, however. The second half on Saturday, where they didn't try kicking, was far more successful

"This is Schmidts first RWC but many of the squad have experience of previous campaigns, so have to hope that the warm ups aren't a sign of another botched preseason and that we've learnt from past tournaments."

I really doubt it Rodders, not with the degree of detail Joe brings to proceedings. I would have loved for us to go into the competition unbeaten but that could have meant we had a false sense of security and missed our peak by a month. I'm sure there's no panic in the Ireland camp and with our pool we effectively get a set of warm up matches for the France game as does France which could make it either a classic game or as is more the norm with must win games, a dour, tightly fought drugefest.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:I agree Dodger. Watching the highlights the other night, I felt that Ireland didn't really bother trying to get out of third gear whereas England went hell for leather.

If they were to meet in a proper competitive match, I think Ireland would step up another couple of levels and quite easily beat England.

With what gameplan?

The same gameplan that won them two successive Championships.

Ah the one that's been worked out and relies on the opposition back 3 not being able to catch, and that actually, as we are discussed beating England, saw them LOSE last time they were at Twickers in the 6N? Good


I do suspect that Schmidt has another game plan waiting, however. The second half on Saturday, where they didn't try kicking, was far more successful

I didn't see the entire match but did Ireland kick off thirsd phase over and over again like they did against Wales?

Fanster wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:I agree Dodger. Watching the highlights the other night, I felt that Ireland didn't really bother trying to get out of third gear whereas England went hell for leather.

If they were to meet in a proper competitive match, I think Ireland would step up another couple of levels and quite easily beat England.

With what gameplan?

The same gameplan that won them two successive Championships.

Ah the one that's been worked out and relies on the opposition back 3 not being able to catch, and that actually, as we are discussed beating England, saw them LOSE last time they were at Twickers in the 6N? Good


I do suspect that Schmidt has another game plan waiting, however. The second half on Saturday, where they didn't try kicking, was far more successful

I didn't see the entire match but did Ireland kick off thirsd phase over and over again like they did against Wales?

Yep, in the first half. But they didn't have much impetus from the pack at all, were beaten at the breakdown, didn't kick that well and May had learnt to field kicks and run straight and they forgot that Brown wasn't Goode, so it really didn't work, looked better when they kept ball in hand

As they did v Wales the week before.

I couldn't beleive Sexton was playing trick shots from the second minute!

One thing I noticed in the warm up game was late jumping. Several times the Irish player fielding the kick jumped very late for a ball they didn't need to take in the air, clearly trying to entice the kick chaser into giving away a penalty. It worked the first time... but it looked later in the game as if both the English chasers and Nige had gotten sufficiently wise to it to nullify its effect.

I'm glad they did - I don't like tactics that take advantage of rules designed to protect players as a way to milk penalties.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Fanster wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:I agree Dodger. Watching the highlights the other night, I felt that Ireland didn't really bother trying to get out of third gear whereas England went hell for leather.

If they were to meet in a proper competitive match, I think Ireland would step up another couple of levels and quite easily beat England.

With what gameplan?

The same gameplan that won them two successive Championships.

Ah the one that's been worked out and relies on the opposition back 3 not being able to catch, and that actually, as we are discussed beating England, saw them LOSE last time they were at Twickers in the 6N? Good


I do suspect that Schmidt has another game plan waiting, however. The second half on Saturday, where they didn't try kicking, was far more successful

I didn't see the entire match but did Ireland kick off thirsd phase over and over again like they did against Wales?

Yep, in the first half. But they didn't have much impetus from the pack at all, were beaten at the breakdown, didn't kick that well and May had learnt to field kicks and run straight and they forgot that Brown wasn't Goode, so it really didn't work, looked better when they kept ball in hand

Except for all the handling errors and getting isolated at the breakdown

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:I agree Dodger. Watching the highlights the other night, I felt that Ireland didn't really bother trying to get out of third gear whereas England went hell for leather.

If they were to meet in a proper competitive match, I think Ireland would step up another couple of levels and quite easily beat England.

With what gameplan?

The same gameplan that won them two successive Championships.

Ah the one that's been worked out and relies on the opposition back 3 not being able to catch, and that actually, as we are discussed beating England, saw them LOSE last time they were at Twickers in the 6N? Good


I do suspect that Schmidt has another game plan waiting, however. The second half on Saturday, where they didn't try kicking, was far more successful

No. The one where they actually give a shoite and try. It was a warm up. England really went for it. Ireland didn't. That's my opinion from a neutral that watched the extended highlights.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:I agree Dodger. Watching the highlights the other night, I felt that Ireland didn't really bother trying to get out of third gear whereas England went hell for leather.

If they were to meet in a proper competitive match, I think Ireland would step up another couple of levels and quite easily beat England.

With what gameplan?

The same gameplan that won them two successive Championships.

Ah the one that's been worked out and relies on the opposition back 3 not being able to catch, and that actually, as we are discussed beating England, saw them LOSE last time they were at Twickers in the 6N? Good


I do suspect that Schmidt has another game plan waiting, however. The second half on Saturday, where they didn't try kicking, was far more successful

No. The one where they actually give a shoite and try. It was a warm up. England really went for it. Ireland didn't. That's my opinion from a neutral that watched the extended highlights.

And you are correct Tattie

Ok, accepting that, because the difference in intensity was definitely there and I think we can all accept that England needed that win more than Ireland, were you not trying in 2014 either?  Do you think the kick chase tactics are likely to be successful against an English side that have previously nullified them, with Brown at FB, and are expecting them? Sure, it's good if the pack turn up and the breakdown is a contest, but that still doesn't mean that the tactical approach thus far by Schmidt seem to be the wrong option rather than poorly executed. Do you think there's some fairness in that?

Or do you think that kicking the leather off the ball is the right way to approach that prospective fixture? Considering, errors or no errors, you looked much better when you gave upon on kicking the ball

ChequeredJersey wrote:Ok, accepting that, because the difference in intensity was definitely there and I think we can all accept that England needed that win more than Ireland, were you not trying in 2014 either?  Do you think the kick chase tactics are likely to be successful against an English side that have previously nullified them, with Brown at FB, and are expecting them? Sure, it's good if the pack turn up and the breakdown is a contest, but that still doesn't mean that the tactical approach thus far by Schmidt seem to be the wrong option rather than poorly executed. Do you think there's some fairness in that?

I'm not Irish by the way.

I would assume that because the kick chase tactics weren't working, they persisted with them for practice. Kearney et al under the high ball are superb catchers and so more emphasis (I assume) was put on the accuracy of the kicking - which obviously wasn't there.

The warm matches are for precisely that - tweaking little areas to work on but at the same time, not giving too much away. I think Ireland were looking at alternative tactics to see how they went against top class opposition, whereas England were working on full on intensity.

Just my opinion though, and I could well be a million miles off the mark.

Schmidt wanted to simulate pressure situations in the last 2 games - he had the players trained really hard, which wouldn't be typical in match week and wanted to see them scrummage, ruck and defend under fatigue and pressure as part of the RWC training - that is why we went for 4 games rather than 3.

Only one side turned up to win, although he won't have been happy at some of the efforts in the first half but wouldn't read much into this with regards the RWC performances.

It's not the performances I am discussing, rodders, but the tactics

A perfect reading rodders.  It might not be perfectly correct (only Joe and the boys will know how hard they've tried or how much they are concealing), but its a perfect assumption based on the idea that Joe ain't dumb and is preparing all the while for the main event.
We should thank the English for playing it so hard and honest, like I think they mostly always do, and that they came at us time and time again when they felt they could.  It was a top quality pressure exercise for sure, whether planned by Joe or simply endured.

Ireland now needs to tighten up in-the-air (a lot! - we've lost a lot of ground on those skills over the last year or so) - increase genuine support running options, finally add some f**king oh-so-obviously-absent offloading into the mix to dampen down the impact work the players are continuously asked to do, and speed up general tempo for longer periods in an 80mins.

My instincts are that Ireland have been doing a lot of ghost moves through Joe's two years and totting up when and where those efforts happened and how effective.  By ghost moves I say taking things so far and knowing that one or two more passes or options taken and the ball would have been in.... but not going those one or two steps more, choosing instead to bank the ghost score in their imagination but play it much less dynamic - run into contact, look for a recycle and put themselves under more pressure again with their limited gameplan.
There have been many times when you say to yourself: 'Joe must have seen how easy it would have been to score in that position with just a little more heads-up from the guys, and he must have talked about those moments in his famous video sessions and yet, next game, the same stubborn rigid lack of real vision seems to persist and the players playing it too conservative also get to stay in the team.'  At Leinster, Joe was not so.  So there has to be some kind of smokescreen in operation, it's the only thing that explains away Joe's seeming lack of will to put wrongs right and/or change wrong players.

Think you need to practice things like the final pass and offloading in GAMES though SecretFly for them to be reliable- that's the only pressure that matters and that actually tests whether something will work. In terms of pressure, composure, execution and muscle memory, there's not much point in ghosting moves or practicing them, the big difference at test level is doing all of these things that work at club level and in training under pressure, to completion, with an international standard defence

ChequeredJersey wrote:Think you need to practice things like the final pass and offloading in GAMES though SecretFly for them to be reliable- that's the only pressure that matters and that actually tests whether something will work. In terms of pressure, composure, execution and muscle memory, there's not much point in ghosting moves or practicing them, the big difference at test level is doing all of these things that work at club level and in training under pressure, to completion, with an international standard defence

I agree.  Wholeheartedly agree, Jersey.  I've been calling for it for a year now.  An honest gameplan of all-out-effort from Ireland.  I've wanted to see a version of an Ireland that needed or wanted to be ruthless for a full 80.

But I ain't boss.  But I still think our particular boss has well proven that he can coach such a full-on ruthless attacking game, but has chosen - quite pointedly - not to play it or display it - much.

I think it must be there though.  I think he must trust a version of it somewhere underneath the covers.  It's his choice and his trust levels that doesn't allow us to see it in Real games.  But this man isn't dumb.  That's all I can believe and then wait...... to be proven right or wrong on his dumbdom levels

Biltong wrote:The Irieland France match is going to be a humdinger. Ireland may be favourites but I doubt the French will pay attention to it, neither team would want to meet the All Blacks in the quarters, so I reckon that is the most important pool match of all the pools

Yes absolutely. France are fairly weak at the moment but they tend to be the ultimate world cup team whereas Ireland certainly are not. As such this could go either way. Ireland definitely should win it but I wouldnt put any bets on this game at all particularly given that over the 5 world cup/world cup warm up games v France Ireland have never won.

In fact of the 3 actual world cup games none of them in '95, '03 nor '07 have even been remotely close despite Ireland having good teams in '03 and '07. History is certainly not on our side so we really would have to put in a massive performance IMO.

SecretFly wrote:A perfect reading rodders.  It might not be perfectly correct (only Joe and the boys will know how hard they've tried or how much they are concealing), but its a perfect assumption based on the idea that Joe ain't dumb and is preparing all the while for the main event.
We should thank the English for playing it so hard and honest, like I think they mostly always do, and that they came at us time and time again when they felt they could.  It was a top quality pressure exercise for sure, whether planned by Joe or simply endured.

Ireland now needs to tighten up in-the-air (a lot! - we've lost a lot of ground on those skills over the last year or so) - increase genuine support running options, finally add some f**king oh-so-obviously-absent offloading into the mix to dampen down the impact work the players are continuously asked to do, and speed up general tempo for longer periods in an 80mins.

My instincts are that Ireland have been doing a lot of ghost moves through Joe's two years and totting up when and where those efforts happened and how effective.  By ghost moves I say taking things so far and knowing that one or two more passes or options taken and the ball would have been in.... but not going those one or two steps more, choosing instead to bank the ghost score in their imagination but play it much less dynamic - run into contact, look for a recycle and put themselves under more pressure again with their limited gameplan.
There have been many times when you say to yourself: 'Joe must have seen how easy it would have been to score in that position with just a little more heads-up from the guys, and he must have talked about those moments in his famous video sessions and yet, next game, the same stubborn rigid lack of real vision seems to persist and the players playing it too conservative also get to stay in the team.'  At Leinster, Joe was not so.  So there has to be some kind of smokescreen in operation, it's the only thing that explains away Joe's seeming lack of will to put wrongs right and/or change wrong players.

Fly, in theory the bit in bold makes sense as a theory, but if you are playing a sport at that level, how do you find it in you to not go and score the try/goal/touchdown/point/putt or whatever!

Surely its just instinct born from the day you start playing a sport to try and score, how can players with the required competitive streak to make it to internationals possibly control that nature and purposely decide not to score!

I could understand it if they were 30 points up and they didn't want to execute a set piece move, but in games like the ones against England recently, or Wales, how could they not score!

Do you know what - I was going to write something about possession and what you do with it. But then I went and looked at the stats and they are very even between the two sides (England 51%/48 % ), with England edging territory (55% both halves)

England made more tackles with a higher success rate (93% to 86%) Also England were way ahead on clean breaks/ defenders beaten and offloads, but everything else was pretty even.

Bambam, all I can say is I'm astute enough at watching rugby over the years, and certainly have watched this coach in action over the years and I believe what I believe.  I believe the Irish side has often left scores in games in order to adhere obediently to the limitations of the present gameplan.

I believe Ireland could have been much more dynamic over the last two years but bluntly chose not to be.  Maybe that's simply Joe bedding himself down as National coach and doing things bit by bit.  But nobody can avoid the knowledge that a WC was coming soon after he was selected as our coach.  He knew what was coming. It was probably a big reason why he applied and accepted the offer to coach us.
He had to hit the gorund running, and did hit the ground running, but by playing a brand of rugby that up till then would have been a little alien to people's perceptions of him.  I believe he toned it all back and down for a reason.

I don't know how much might change in the WC but I have to believe this team has a more dynamic side to them that they're not showing, I have to believe it because I believe in this coach, I believe in his instincts to know he needs a more dynamic version to go far in this WC.

We'll see what happens. If England can't make it, would love Ireland to win the cup instead, and I'm sure Schmidt has other gameplans. All I am contending is that the kick chase is te right way to approach England, unless you can DOMINATE our pack and then it doesn't really matter what approach you take. I genuinely that Brown at the back makes kicking to victory so much harder for a team too

Fair enough SF, you know a lot more of Schmidt than I do, it'll be interesting to see whether you're proved right.

I'm like CJ, if England don't win it I'd be hoping Ireland can

ChequeredJersey wrote:It's not the performances I am discussing, rodders, but the tactics

Well the tactics would be the last thing you'd give away, given both sides could well meet in the SF. Any potential tactics Ireland might use against England that would be effective - whether its kicking or setting up a midfield maul would be the last thing that would be used as would give England the perfect chance to rectify.

I'd say its no coincidence our lineout was so poor - no way would we give away our lineout calls. The one for O'Connells try probably one of the few exceptions and also the use of Zebo at first receiver on the wrap around and bath-esque pod system at times...but then these could be a rouse....

France have a pretty dire record outside of France in recent years, which has to count against them.

Ireland have had some lame warm-up performances but something tells me they should hold together under pressure. I think when the pressure gets real they'll have far more confidence in themselves and their gameplan than France.

I doubt that Ireland have anything more i the locker than what they've shown over the last few years.

In saying that, I don't think the gameplan is just about kick-chase either. There have been enough tries scored besides through mauling and cross-field kicks to show that Ireland have the ability to score them.

But anyone expecting Leinster style running/passing and off-loading is going to be seriously disappointed - Schmidt's mantra seems to be possession is nine-tenth's of success - offloading inevitably weakens that approach, and better to take into contact and re-secure than try an offload. Maintain possession, maintain pressure, advance slowly and then strike. And when it's their turn, defend like dervishes.

It may not be pretty, but they're hoping it will continue to be effective with a full first team on the pitch.

I still can't see them making it past the quarters though.

Pot Hale wrote:I doubt that Ireland have anything more i the locker than what they've shown over the last few years.

In saying that, I don't think the gameplan is just about kick-chase either.  There have been enough tries scored besides through mauling and cross-field kicks to show that Ireland have the ability to score them.  

But anyone expecting Leinster style running/passing and off-loading is going to be seriously disappointed - Schmidt's mantra seems to be possession is nine-tenth's of success - offloading inevitably weakens that approach, and better to take into contact and re-secure than try an offload.  Maintain possession, maintain pressure, advance slowly and then strike. And when it's their turn, defend like dervishes.

It may not be pretty, but they're hoping it will continue to be effective with a full first team on the pitch.  

I still can't see them making it past the quarters though.  

I've read this line/explanation/knowing journalist synopsis many times over the few years, Pot.  It seems to have become urban myth that Joe himself has had a big press conference to clear things up and produced that mantra for media people and onlookers to quote on his behalf ever since.

I don't buy it though.

Neither am I suggesting a complete tactical revision is on the cards though.  But rugby is rugby - and running, passing and offloading could build a quick 'surprise' scoreline that makes the job of his initial International blueprint (maintain possession, advance slowly, defend obediently) easier to achieve, not harder - easier.  
And I believe Schmidt hasn't lost the appreciation of that fact.  Up until now Ireland have been rigidly grinding out very labour intensive victories and succumbing to very labour intensive losses.  Schmidt simply knows there is an easier way to slot the points that then could be defended with that resolute stubbornness you speak of.
Schmidt simply knows there is an easier way.  The present way has had it's time, really is time to add other ingredients to keep it effective in its own right and keep the opposition on their toes.  Best opportunity to do so is upon us.  If we have no hope of getting through the quarters then nothing to lose  All of a sudden we have so little faith in Schmidt being able to adapt his plans.

Pot Hale wrote:I doubt that Ireland have anything more i the locker than what they've shown over the last few years.

In saying that, I don't think the gameplan is just about kick-chase either.  There have been enough tries scored besides through mauling and cross-field kicks to show that Ireland have the ability to score them.  

But anyone expecting Leinster style running/passing and off-loading is going to be seriously disappointed - Schmidt's mantra seems to be possession is nine-tenth's of success - offloading inevitably weakens that approach, and better to take into contact and re-secure than try an offload.  Maintain possession, maintain pressure, advance slowly and then strike. And when it's their turn, defend like dervishes.

It may not be pretty, but they're hoping it will continue to be effective with a full first team on the pitch.  

I still can't see them making it past the quarters though.  

I don't think they have much more either but I think people are looking too deeply at the last 6N in terms of how they will play.

The minimal offloading is clearly a strategy - as is the kick chase. There is a pattern for exit strategies and 3 phase followed by a kick. The deep clear out at the rucks.

However Schmidt had said himself that the 6N being played in winter in the UK required a lot of kicking so would expect that we won't see exactly the same here.

In 2014 6N we say more of the attacks around the ruck - the ball back inside to Trimble/Kearney that we saw with Leinster.

I think Schmidt realizes that international rugby is tighter than club rugby - players don't have the same time to practice together and the pressure is higher, so sides that make few mistakes and concede few penalties do well, therefore the gameplan has been fairly low risk.

At Leinster he employed a home/away split that was super successful in Europe - realizing that away from home involved more defending and that home games were the place to speed the game up and score points. Away from home it was about hanging in there and coming away with a sneaky win or at least a bonus.

So the perception that Schmidt played really attacking rugby at Leinster and then negative rugby with Ireland is not really accurate when there are a lot of parallels.

What does contrast is that Leinster scored a lot of tries - particularly of first phase and Ireland's execution hasn't been at the same level.

How much of that is down to a step up in opposition or the players is hard to tell. At Leinster he had guys like Horgan, BOD, D'arcy, Sexton in the backline - who all had a telepathic understanding.

For Ireland he hasn't had the same continuity with injuries and retirements. This season there has been a totally new center combination which obviously changes the game plan a bit, with more direct running but maybe a bit less cohesion in the back moves.

I don't think we will see anything radically different in the RWC but have seen enough over the last few years to believe that Ireland won't be restricted to one game plan - we will attack a lot from the lineout using the maul and set plays and use plenty of high balls but I also see us being able to keep the ball in hand too when we need and putting a few points on the weaker teams in the pool.

Once you get to the knockout stages you get very few tries anyway and I think Schmidt realizes this, hence the focus in the past few years has been on the set piece, breakdown and maintaining a low error count rather than attacking play and entertainment.

rodders wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I doubt that Ireland have anything more i the locker than what they've shown over the last few years.

In saying that, I don't think the gameplan is just about kick-chase either.  There have been enough tries scored besides through mauling and cross-field kicks to show that Ireland have the ability to score them.  

But anyone expecting Leinster style running/passing and off-loading is going to be seriously disappointed - Schmidt's mantra seems to be possession is nine-tenth's of success - offloading inevitably weakens that approach, and better to take into contact and re-secure than try an offload.  Maintain possession, maintain pressure, advance slowly and then strike. And when it's their turn, defend like dervishes.

It may not be pretty, but they're hoping it will continue to be effective with a full first team on the pitch.  

I still can't see them making it past the quarters though.  

I don't think they have much more either but I think people are looking too deeply at the last 6N in terms of how they will play.

The minimal offloading is clearly a strategy - as is the kick chase. There is a pattern for exit strategies and 3 phase followed by a kick. The deep clear out at the rucks.

However Schmidt had said himself that the 6N being played in winter in the UK required a lot of kicking so would expect that we won't see exactly the same here.

In 2014 6N we say more of the attacks around the ruck - the ball back inside to Trimble/Kearney that we saw with Leinster.

I think Schmidt realizes that international rugby is tighter than club rugby - players don't have the same time to practice together and the pressure is higher, so sides that make few mistakes and concede few penalties do well, therefore the gameplan has been fairly low risk.

At Leinster he employed a home/away split that was super successful in Europe - realizing that away from home involved more defending and that home games were the place to speed the game up and score points. Away from home it was about hanging in there and coming away with a sneaky win or at least a bonus.

So the perception that Schmidt played really attacking rugby at Leinster and then negative rugby with Ireland is not really accurate when there are a lot of parallels.

What does contrast is that Leinster scored a lot of tries - particularly of first phase and Ireland's execution hasn't been at the same level.

How much of that is down to a step up in opposition or the players is hard to tell. At Leinster he had guys like Horgan, BOD, D'arcy, Sexton in the backline - who all had a telepathic understanding.

For Ireland he hasn't had the same continuity with injuries and retirements. This season there has been a totally new center combination which obviously changes the game plan a bit, with more direct running but maybe a bit less cohesion in the back moves.

I don't think we will see anything radically different in the RWC but have seen enough over the last few years to believe that Ireland won't be restricted to one game plan - we will attack a lot from the lineout using the maul and set plays and use plenty of high balls but I also see us being able to keep the ball in hand too when we need and putting a few points on the weaker teams in the pool.

Once you get to the knockout stages you get very few tries anyway and I think Schmidt realizes this, hence the focus in the past few years has been on the set piece, breakdown and maintaining a low error count rather than attacking play and entertainment.

You know what, Rodders?

I wouldn't argue with a word of that.

Nice one.

Parisse ruled out of Italy's opening match with France.

And there goes the chance of an Italy upset in the opening match.

Pot Hale wrote:And there goes the chance of an Italy upset in the opening match.

Given that France won 29-0 in Rome  back in March (with Parisse playing) I don't think Italy were ever going to trouble France. They're pretty woeful with or without Parisse.