Ireland vs Romania, 27 September

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IRELAND v ROMANIA
27 September 2015
KO: 16:45 BST
Wembley Stadium, London
Live on ITV1 (United Kingdom) and TV3 (Republic of Ireland)

Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
Assistant Referee 1; Romain Poite (France)
Assistant Referee 2; Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

Teams

IRELAND



15. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
13. Jared Payne (Ulster)
12. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
11. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
10. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
9. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)

1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
3. Nathan White (Connacht)
4. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
5. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
6. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
7. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) captain

Replacements;

16. Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17. Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster)
18. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
19. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster)
20. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
21. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
22. Paddy Jackson (Dungannon)
23. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)

ROMANIA



15. Catalin Fercu
14. Adrian Apostol
13. Paula Kinikinilau
12. Csaba Gal
11. Ionut Botezatu
10. Michael Wiringi
9. Valentin Calafeteanu

1. Andrei Ursache
2. Andrei Radoi
3. Paulica Ion
4. Valentin Poparlan
5. Ovidiu Tonita
6. Viorel Lucaci
7. Mihai Macovei (c)
8. Daniel Carpo

Replacements

16. Mihaita Lazar
17. Otar Turashvili
18. Alexandru Tarus
19. Johannes van Heerden
20.Stelian Burcea
21. Florin Surugiu
22. Florin Ionita
23. Florin Vlaicu

Head to Head

Played; 8
Ireland Won; 8
Romania Won; 0
Draws; 0

Last 5 Meetings

Ireland 43 - 12 Romania
26th November 2005
Lansdowne Road, Dublin

Ireland 45 - 17 Romania
11th October 2003
Rugby World Cup 2003, Pool A, Match 3
Central Coast Stadium, Gosford

Ireland 39 - 8 Romania
7th September 2002
Thomond Park, Limerick

Romania 3 - 37 Ireland
2nd June 2001
Bucharest

Ireland 44 - 14 Romania
15th October 1999
Rugby World Cup 1999, Pool E, Match 27
Lansdowne Road, Dublin

That said I would be surprised if he starts against Italy, or if any player starts in every game of the group stages. Expecting to see Earls, Payne and Heaslip rested for the next game.

I would guess our team for Italy will be;

1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Mike Ross
4. Iain Henderson
5. Paul O'Connell (c)
6. Peter O'Mahony
7. Chris Henry
8. Sean O'Brien
9. Conor Murray
10. Johnny Sexton
11. Dave Kearney
12. Robbie Henshaw
13. Luke Fitzgerald
14. Tommy Bowe
15. Simon Zebo

16. Sean Cronin 17. Jack McGrath 18. Nathan White 19. Donnacha Ryan 20. Jamie Heaslip 21. Eoin Reddan 22. Ian Madigan 23. Keith Earls/Jared Payne

Notch wrote:That said I would be surprised if he starts against Italy, or if any player starts in every game of the group stages. Expecting to see Earls, Payne and Heaslip rested for the next game.

I would guess our team for Italy will be;

1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Mike Ross
4. Iain Henderson
5. Paul O'Connell (c)
6. Peter O'Mahony
7. Chris Henry
8. Sean O'Brien
9. Conor Murray
10. Johnny Sexton
11. Dave Kearney
12. Robbie Henshaw
13. Luke Fitzgerald
14. Tommy Bowe
15. Simon Zebo

16. Sean Cronin 17. Jack McGrath 18. Nathan White 19. Donnacha Ryan 20. Jamie Heaslip 21. Eoin Reddan 22. Ian Madigan 23. Keith Earls/Jared Payne

Peter O'Mahony is starting to stand out as a serious under performer at this stage. He hasn't had a really good game for some time. With Henry playing so well at 7 and the general consensus that we aren't getting the best out of O'Brien at 7.... this is the only opportunity Schmidt is going to get to tinker with the starting backrow. Unfortunately, I think we will still see O'Mahony, O'Brien and Heaslip against France.

Actually I think O'Mahony is a key player for us, and feel O'Brien is more likely to be replaced than him.

I agree re POM but he is just back from a pretty bad shoulder injury. I think there is a good chance that Henry will start v France ahead of him.

Also I think everyone has had some game time at this point. Isnt that right?

Only Henshaw hasn't yet, and he will next week.

Notch wrote:Only Henshaw hasn't yet, and he will next week.

Ah yes of course. In fairness we have probably the perfect schedule in this WC and I reckon it helps a lot to get everyone involved. Hopefully that is reflected in a comprehensive wins over Italy and France.

Also I think the preparation has been good because while some have pointed out that we look unfit compared to Wales I think with the strength of our squad and subs I think it is preferable to have players that can only last 60 minutes than have a squad of players that are dropping like flies.

Schmidt knows he's inherited a load of badly coached numpties and Payne is his eyes and ears on the field - like Roy Keane was for Alex Ferguson.

The guy's in Schmidts inner circle like flash Gordon and Bod know this  -the skill levels of the other guys are too low and Payne is there to help them execute the plan now BOD is gone.

Long term Henshaw is the guy but he's being mentored by Payne along with Cave and Noel Reid as the long term successors - he's said so many times.

Notch wrote:Actually I think O'Mahony is a key player for us, and feel O'Brien is more likely to be replaced than him.

What do you think O'Mahony is doing that makes him key? I'm assuming its a lot of unseen stuff because I'm struggling to see any big contributions from him.

I think it's the lines he runs off the halfbacks and his handling ability. I think he is like a playmaker in the forwards for us.

He's there because they use him on the advertising to help sell replica kits in Munster.

Notch wrote:I think it's the lines he runs off the halfbacks and his handling ability. I think he is like a playmaker in the forwards for us.

Why is a backrow forward running lines off half backs? We need backrow forwards with muscle to make yards and clean out rucks. Personally I think Chris Henry has better hands than POM and anyone else in the backrow so for me he is a better option in the backrow than POM.

Hey speaking about lines off half backs, did anyone see the wrap around between Jackson and Reddan for Bowe's second try? - it was a work of art!

I think if you look at our attacking structure, our forwards are crucial in it. Rory Best and Paul O'Connell were critical to Dave Kearneys try against Canada as they were running hard decoy lines up the middle to fix the defence while we went out wide through the backs behind them. Better defences will read that better, but they helped create the space out wide by giving the halfbacks two convincing options for a crash ball into the midfield that makes the opposition question their decision making. That doesn't mean they weren't doing the rest of their jobs

I feel O'Mahony is very important if we want to see a wider game. He has the handling and game intelligence to be a part of a complex backs move, to run decoy lines, to run loop plays, to take contact or to distribute and bring other players into the game when he gets the ball. He is, I think, our second most important lineout forward after O'Connell- the lineout is our most effective attacking platform. I think he has room to improve in terms of turning ball over and clearing out rucks but I do think he is integral to at least two key structures for us.

rodders wrote:Hey speaking about lines off half backs, did anyone see the wrap around between Jackson and Reddan for Bowe's second try? - it was a work of art!

That was a nice variation. Good wrap move in midfield for Kearneys try as well, Jackson to Cave to Madigan who is wrapping around behind Cave, who releases Zebo. Kearney is running the hard decoy line off Caves shoulder to create the space for Madigan  when he gets the ball and Kearney eventually gets it at the end of the move.

Nice strike move off first phase.

Notch wrote:I think if you look at our attacking structure, our forwards are crucial in it. Rory Best and Paul O'Connell were critical to Dave Kearneys try against Canada as they were running hard decoy lines up the middle to fix the defence while we went out wide through the backs behind them. Better defences will read that better, but they helped create the space out wide by giving the halfbacks two convincing options for a crash ball into the midfield that makes the opposition question their decision making. That doesn't mean they weren't doing the rest of their jobs

I feel O'Mahony is very important if we want to see a wider game. He has the handling and game intelligence to be a part of a complex backs move, to run decoy lines, to run loop plays, to take contact or to distribute and bring other players into the game when he gets the ball. He is, I think, our second most important lineout forward after O'Connell- the lineout is our most effective attacking platform. I think he has room to improve in terms of turning ball over and clearing out rucks but I do think he is integral to at least two key structures for us.

Not sure how you could call POM our second most important lineout operator after POC? Maybe if Toner isnt playing. Is that what you mean?

GunsGerms wrote:I see Devon Toner topped Ireland's tackle count once again. I know he is not as physical as Henderson who may start v Italy but Toner does offer more than just a good lineout operator.

It is rare he has a bad game for Ireland and her is a great lineout option, but despite being top tackler, I think he finds it hard to stop people getting yards on him. I think it's height and speed at which he can attack the man rather than his technique. For me Henderson the better option, although he might have his place at 6 too.

No. Even when Toner is playing, I think O'Mahony is more important in defence and attack. I think he reads the opposition lineout very well, I think he gets up quicker than Toner, I think he is generally quicker to react, I think he is a dependable source of off the top ball.

Agree O Brien could be the likely casualty. He is becoming a bit of a penalty hazard, I think Henry is the better 7.

Notch wrote:Yeah, tbh, I don't see any player who can come in and do what he does as a link player, defender, defensive organiser and ball carrier..

I see 3, Cave, Henshaw and Earls and they can do it better.

As for defensive organiser, well again I am yet to see him do this. Yesterday Cave was calling the defensive lines for the backs...

You seem to have gone off defending him for his composer and decision making as he has not shown much of those recently either.

I don't dislike him because of his accent, in fact I don't dislike him and feel he is a very valued member of the squad just that there are better players in his position and I am still convinced he is playing in the wrong position.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Notch wrote:Actually I think O'Mahony is a key player for us, and feel O'Brien is more likely to be replaced than him.

What do you think O'Mahony is doing that makes him key?  I'm assuming its a lot of unseen stuff because I'm struggling to see any big contributions from him.

Murray Kinsella's analysis of Canada game. Comparing POM & Henderson

First arrivals at ruck:
10 Peter O’Mahony – 8 effective, 1 guard, 1 present (one of top 3 players with 10 - Earls, Heaslip)
7 Iain Henderson – 1 dominant, 4 effective, 1 guard, 1 present

2nd Arrivals:
7 Iain Henderson – 3 effective, 3 guard, 1 present
7 Peter O’Mahony – 1 effective, 4 guard, 2 present

3rd Arrival
9 Iain Henderson – 4 guard, 5 present
5 Peter O’Mahony – 5 guard

http://www.the42.ie/ireland-canada-rucks-analysis-rwc-15-2347705-Sep2015/

Now Jared Payne is no BOD (or Keith earls when it comes to rucking!)
10 Keith Earls – 1 dominant, 7 effective, 2 guard
6 Jared Payne – 1 effective, 2 present, 2 ineffective

2nd arrivals:
3 Keith Earls – 1 effective, 2 guard
1 Jared Payne – 1 guard

3rd arrivals
2 Keith Earls – 1 effective, 1 guard
2 Jared Payne – 2 guard

Sin é wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Notch wrote:Actually I think O'Mahony is a key player for us, and feel O'Brien is more likely to be replaced than him.

What do you think O'Mahony is doing that makes him key?  I'm assuming its a lot of unseen stuff because I'm struggling to see any big contributions from him.

Murray Kinsella's analysis of Canada game. Comparing POM & Henderson

First arrivals at ruck:
10 Peter O’Mahony – 8 effective, 1 guard, 1 present   (one of top 3 players with 10 - Earls, Heaslip)
7 Iain Henderson – 1 dominant, 4 effective, 1 guard, 1 present

2nd Arrivals:
7 Iain Henderson – 3 effective, 3 guard, 1 present
7 Peter O’Mahony – 1 effective, 4 guard, 2 present

3rd Arrival
9 Iain Henderson – 4 guard, 5 present
5 Peter O’Mahony – 5 guard

http://www.the42.ie/ireland-canada-rucks-analysis-rwc-15-2347705-Sep2015/

Now Jared Payne is no BOD (or Keith earls when it comes to rucking!)
10 Keith Earls – 1 dominant, 7 effective, 2 guard
6 Jared Payne – 1 effective, 2 present, 2 ineffective

2nd arrivals:
3 Keith Earls – 1 effective, 2 guard
1 Jared Payne – 1 guard

3rd arrivals
2 Keith Earls – 1 effective, 1 guard
2 Jared Payne – 2 guard

Here comes Sin with his dodgey stats. You are comparing players with very different roles with very specific stats. Henderson was in the second row and O'Mahony the back row, even assuming they are supposed to be playing the same role at the breakdown....the breakdown is only one area among so many. Carries, lineouts won and stolen, penalties conceded, offloads etc. etc.

Stats comparing two players in vastly different positions specific to the breakdown are largely useless in the wider context of the game.

By the way, I see Dean Mumm is on fire at the minute, do you still think he is too small for international rugby at 6'5 and on that basis is Henderson also too small at 6'5?

Never heard Kinsellas stats or review accused of being dodgy. Over the top maybe. They were only showing POMs effectiveness and they don't take into account the game stats where he also passed more ball than any other back outside of the half backs. In fact he gas a nice little partnership going with big Iain. As it stands POM is our best no.6 by a mile Henderson is becoming our most important lock (after POC retires) its great to have good backup like Henry.

eirebilly wrote:

Notch wrote:Yeah, tbh, I don't see any player who can come in and do what he does as a link player, defender, defensive organiser and ball carrier..

I see 3, Cave, Henshaw and Earls and they can do it better.

Not true. And it always amuses me you criticise him for not being a defensive organiser when this is pretty much one of his biggest strengths. It's something he's got by far the best track record of; reading the game to be in the right place at the right time to make the tackle and organising the players around him is the entire reason he was picked in the first place. Cave is both slower and less powerful than Payne. Earls has less game awareness, is far less consistent in defence and attack, and is best utilised elsewhere in the back line. Henshaw is still learning the position and will surpass Payne in the next few years, but for now is a mentor and apprentice situation with Henshaw learning off him.

In terms of who is the best Ireland player in reading the game as it unfolds around them I think Johnny Sexton is number 1, Paddy Jackson is number 2 and Jared Payne is number 3. Of course I still think his composure and decision making is good.

Just heard Zebo has left the Irish camp for a short while after a family bereavement but will be back on Tuesday.

http://www.balls.ie/rugby/simon-zebo-compassionate-leave/310488

Notch wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

Notch wrote:Yeah, tbh, I don't see any player who can come in and do what he does as a link player, defender, defensive organiser and ball carrier..

I see 3, Cave, Henshaw and Earls and they can do it better.

Not true. And it always amuses me you criticise him for not being a defensive organiser when this is pretty much one of his biggest strengths.

He is defensively very solid but he is not a defensive organiser and to be fair, I cant understand how you see it that way, you must mistake him for someone else every game.

His recent performances have also pretty much blown away your theories about his composure and decision making under pressure

Very good 15 (probably as good if not better than Kearney due to his last man defensive capabilities) but and average 13.

Thats exactly the way I feel about your views billy.

I honestly would not be surprised if you came on here one day and admitted you thought that Darren Cave was Jared Payne and vice versa. That would be a more logical explanation for the things you type to me than anything I see when I watch a game of rugby.

I cannot watch him play and reconcile the things you say with what he does on the pitch. It is bizarre and incomprehensible. You sound like George Hook.

Well fair enough Notch, I guess we wont ever see eye to eye on this.

We see different things but I wont go down the immature line of laughing at your opinions or calling them bizarre and incomprehensible. Unlike you, I actually respect others opinions

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

Notch wrote:Actually I think O'Mahony is a key player for us, and feel O'Brien is more likely to be replaced than him.

What do you think O'Mahony is doing that makes him key?  I'm assuming its a lot of unseen stuff because I'm struggling to see any big contributions from him.

Murray Kinsella's analysis of Canada game. Comparing POM & Henderson

First arrivals at ruck:
10 Peter O’Mahony – 8 effective, 1 guard, 1 present   (one of top 3 players with 10 - Earls, Heaslip)
7 Iain Henderson – 1 dominant, 4 effective, 1 guard, 1 present

2nd Arrivals:
7 Iain Henderson – 3 effective, 3 guard, 1 present
7 Peter O’Mahony – 1 effective, 4 guard, 2 present

3rd Arrival
9 Iain Henderson – 4 guard, 5 present
5 Peter O’Mahony – 5 guard

http://www.the42.ie/ireland-canada-rucks-analysis-rwc-15-2347705-Sep2015/

Now Jared Payne is no BOD (or Keith earls when it comes to rucking!)
10 Keith Earls – 1 dominant, 7 effective, 2 guard
6 Jared Payne – 1 effective, 2 present, 2 ineffective

2nd arrivals:
3 Keith Earls – 1 effective, 2 guard
1 Jared Payne – 1 guard

3rd arrivals
2 Keith Earls – 1 effective, 1 guard
2 Jared Payne – 2 guard

Here comes Sin with his dodgey stats.  You are comparing players with very different roles with very specific stats.  Henderson was in the second row and O'Mahony the back row, even assuming they are supposed to be playing the same role at the breakdown....the breakdown is only one area among so many.  Carries, lineouts won and stolen, penalties conceded, offloads etc. etc.

Stats comparing two players in vastly different positions specific to the breakdown are largely useless in the wider context of the game.

By the way, I see Dean Mumm is on fire at the minute, do you still think he is too small for international rugby at 6'5 and on that basis is Henderson also too small at 6'5?

You asked what POM was doing that made him key? I used Murray Kinsella's analysis (giving you the link to see how he ranked) and just threw Henderson's stats in there. As you can see from those stats, POM does the basics well which is going to make him very popular with Schmidt.

Henderson has yet to inspire as a lineout player. We can have that discussion about his height then (I actually thought he was taller) then. I wonder is that why he prefers playing in the backrow?

For instance, you say theories about his decision making have been debunked by his recent performances- I say he has executed his kicks badly but on every occasion it was the right decision to kick. How is that bad decision making, and not bad execution?

You say it shows he lacks composure- every time he gets the ball he knows what he is going to do before he gets it. Every time players run down his channel he keeps himself relevant until the critical moment and never commits early, which is why he so rarely misses a tackle. He is an amazing defensive centre- how is that lacking composure? Surely lacking composure would result in biting early and committing to the tackle leaving a gap outside, like Jesse Kriel did twice against Japan?

I understand someone saying he hasn't kicked well out of hand, but the rest of his game has been very good in the first two games. I am more convinced of him as a starter now than I was before the Canada game.

So your opinions are bizarre to me, like if someone came in and said- 'You know what, Ronan O'Gara was a useless clutch kicker' or 'Paul O'Connell is no kind of leader'

I just can't see how your arguments match up with the player. It's complete cognitive dissonance.

eirebilly wrote:Well fair enough Notch, I guess we wont ever see eye to eye on this.

We see different things but I wont go down the immature line of laughing at your opinions or calling them bizarre and incomprehensible. Unlike you, I actually respect others opinions

I have to agree with you billy, Payne is far too quiet to organise the defence - he doesn't communicate with the rest of the backs at all. Maybe he does at Ulster, but he doesn't with Ireland.

This is bizarro territory now. Do you honestly think Schmidt would be picking him if he wasn't communicating well with the rest of the back line in training or in games?

Communication is one of the most important aspects of defence. The 13 position is the key to defensive alignment and the hardest position to defend. Why would he be picked if he wasn't doing that?

Sin é wrote:

I have to agree with you billy, Payne is far too quiet to organise the defence - he doesn't communicate with the rest of the backs at all. Maybe he does at Ulster, but he doesn't with Ireland.

Cave was clearly calling the backs defensive lines yesterday and actually doing a very good job of it. Payne certainly does not seem to be very vocal. I cant be a judge on him for this at Ulster as I have not seen that much of him for them but he has not shown it for Ireland.

Notch wrote:This is bizarro territory now. Do you honestly think Schmidt would be picking him if he wasn't communicating well with the rest of the back line in training or in games?

Communication is one of the most important aspects of defence. The 13 position is the key to defensive alignment and the hardest position to defend. Why would he be picked if he wasn't doing that?

Payne is good himself defensively, but he hasn't been organising the defence.

The one thing I never do is judge who the biggest talkers are on the pitch based on televised games. 90% of communication happens off the ball, the camera follows the ball. When the ball is out of play, they show replays, crowd shots, the occasional close-up. Even when the ball is in play, they might be showing a close-up of the 9 preparing to get the ball out of the ruck and you can't see who in the back line is doing the talking. I do not feel able to have an opinion on who is doing the most talking in the team based on TV because its a very managed, manufactured perspective that is not objective. You can form an opinion on things like who is clearing rucks effectively, who is winning line outs, who is running good lines etc. because those facets of play are all captured by the camera, but when the ball goes out of play and the director cuts to something else is when a lot of the talking on the pitch is done. Other times, its players who are distant from play and outside the scope of the camera you can't see doing the organising. You will see some of the on-pitch communication but its one of the things which is hardest to get an accurate picture of via TV coverage.

I can only speak about the games I have seen live first hand at Ravenhill and at Lansdowne Road and in those I have seen Payne as a player who does a lot of talking on the pitch. Most recent game I've seen Payne play centre live in the flesh was against Scotland and he was fine in terms of communication.

Payne - the new Zebo.
Forget about Payne and give Jackson a run at 10 against Italy with Murray. Let Joe show he has faith in Jackson to carry a meaningful game at 10.

Brian O'Driscoll on Payne;

"I really have to say any of the stick he is gotten is completely unfounded. I really believe he is the glue in this team that is combining what we have at half-back with the talent we have on our wings and full-back now."

He didn't have a great game at the weekend though Notch. But Henshaw/Payne is the best we have. Better than we could have hoped for when the sun set on D'arcy/O'Driscoll. Having to replace both those guys so close to a World Cup could have been catastrophic for us. Thankfully we have a defensively solid duo who have some assets for our attack too, although neither are BOD. Any search for a potentially better midfield is a post World Cup job I think.

Notch wrote:Brian O'Driscoll on Payne;

"I really have to say any of the stick he is gotten is completely unfounded. I really believe he is the glue in this team that is combining what we have at half-back with the talent we have on our wings and full-back now."

This is the BOD that kept taunting Leinster fans that they were simply spoilt when he and his boys were playing, and that MOC was grand for the less talented crew that followed him, and that the fans should calm down and accept the schyte before them passing for professional rugby?

Hmmm, a blind donkey with no interest in rugby could tell BOD that MOC into Leinster simply didn't go.

I'm not so certain BOD as pundit interests me as much as BOD as player did.

That he was 'taunting' Leinster fans seems far-fetched. If he said that expectations need to be managed in Leinster, I think he was right in saying that. You're looking at a spell of re-building and the only way any team can avoid that is if they are Toulon and sign new world class players every off-season. On Leinsters budget, with the restrictions on foreign players, expectations should be managed on how well they can compete. The goal should be to build the club back up to where it was under Schmidt but a few fallow years are not unexpected in the process of doing that.

That doesn't mean I don't agree with you that MOC was a poor fit for Leinster and had to go. I do. But if BOD did agree with you- and me- that MOC wasn't the man for the job, it would have been disloyal towards and destabilising for his former employer to admit that in public... so I can't understand criticism of him for that reason. He has such influence and is held is such high esteem by Leinster fans that him publicly criticising a Leinster coach could cost them their job. To which you say "Yes! Exactly!", but thats a decision Leinster Rugby can and will- and eventually did- take on their own. Thats how it should be, the management making the decision. External pressure comes from fans, of course, and thats fair enough. But would it be fair to Leinster Rugby if former players were whipping up that external pressure, even if the fans are actually right? I don't think so. I think the respectful thing to do is let the team handle those decisions.

I think it was the right decision to remove MOC and I think he was the wrong coach for the job. But I can say that as an ordinary schmuck on the internet whose opinions mean less than nothing. BOD can say it as a pundit too if he wants; but he has to weigh up if its in the best interests of his former team for him to do it.

Notch wrote:Brian O'Driscoll on Payne;

"I really have to say any of the stick he is gotten is completely unfounded. I really believe he is the glue in this team that is combining what we have at half-back with the talent we have on our wings and full-back now."

Sure what would he know right enough!

I like BOD as a pundit - he explained that it was Cave's defence that was keeping him out of an Ireland shirt, when the popular opinion suggested it was because he had no gas. I looked at Cave's defensive stats closely and sure enough compared to his centre partners at Ulster his tackle stats were poor.

Neither is Cave a communicator. Payne is to be seen regularly organising others on the pitch in response to what is actually happening out there, (and I haven't seen Henshaw, Earls or Fitz doing a whole pile of that either).

I still think Payne is a better 15 than 13, but that doesn't stop him being the best outside centre available to Schmidt right now.

I can understand that logic about Cave's defence letting him down. If you don't have gas (which is what happened to BOD at the end of his career), you need to have a top class defence.

As for the rest - during the 6Ns Rob Kearney was very vocal (and also the reason why Schmidt liked Felix Jones - he is a talker as well). Earls was very noticeable organising the backs in his first game at 13 v. Wales. In fact, it was earls who shouted to trimble to go for the big hit that resulted in the try.

Notch wrote:That he was 'taunting' Leinster fans seems far-fetched. If he said that expectations need to be managed in Leinster, I think he was right in saying that. You're looking at a spell of re-building and the only way any team can avoid that is if they are Toulon and sign new world class players every off-season. On Leinsters budget, with the restrictions on foreign players, expectations should be managed on how well they can compete. The goal should be to build the club back up to where it was under Schmidt but a few fallow years are not unexpected in the process of doing that.

That doesn't mean I don't agree with you that MOC was a poor fit for Leinster and had to go. I do. But if BOD did agree with you- and me- that MOC wasn't the man for the job, it would have been disloyal towards and destabilising for his former employer to admit that in public... so I can't understand criticism of him for that reason. He has such influence and is held is such high esteem by Leinster fans that him publicly criticising a Leinster coach could cost them their job. To which you say "Yes! Exactly!", but thats a decision Leinster Rugby can and will- and eventually did- take on their own. Thats how it should be, the management making the decision. External pressure comes from fans, of course, and thats fair enough. But would it be fair to Leinster Rugby if former players were whipping up that external pressure, even if the fans are actually right? I don't think so. I think the respectful thing to do is let the team handle those decisions.

I think it was the right decision to remove MOC and I think he was the wrong coach for the job. But I can say that as an ordinary schmuck on the internet whose opinions mean less than nothing. BOD can say it as a pundit too if he wants; but he has to weigh up if its in the best interests of his former team for him to do it.

Take all that on board, Notch.  

Look, O'Driscoll for me put his body on the line for his Province and Nation for far too long for me to be truly sore at anything he chooses to say.  My Number 1 player.  Gave me a lot of joy over the years.  That comment above was just moreso my sly shot across his bow.  He certainly knows how to give them sly shots himself since turning pundit, and for me that's half the difficulty.

He has many opinions, he has much knowledge to impart - he'll get better as he ages and becomes remote from players and coaches, and assumes more objectivity as a result.  But for now I'd just like him to calm down and not try to say too much that doesn't need to be said.  He's got that cheeky grin on his face when he talks now and the social media Twitter style approach of giving more opinion than is necessary. (I know, I know, I'm one to talk but I ain't getting paid and nobody listens anyway   ) 

A while back I think it was him that took a simple in-camp idea of Henderson being allegedly lazy in training public.  That was obviously coming from conversations with pals (or pals of pals) still involved in Irish camp.  It wasn't needed on two levels.  

First level is he's now gone from his playing career and he should respect the idea of 'don't quote me' if he's having a simple chat with a current player or indeed current coach.  
The other level it doesn't work on is that if he said it hoping that Henderson might take on board the public criticism from the great man and pull up his socks accordingly - external coaching/motivation as it were.  But no - he isn't a coach (not officially anyway).  Let the Irish coaches coach and simply mind his own business until such time as he might become one.  

I'd like him to be less a 'celebrity' pundit/commentator and more simply keep to his honest opinions based on his observances from outside the tent.  He didn't believe the stuff about MOC.  A player of his ambition and temperament could never have believed what he said.  He actively threatened to leave Leinster at one point if they didn't pull up their socks and start taking professionalism and competitiveness seriously. So had he remained diplomatically quiet that would have been better than "telling unnecessary untruths" -
The suggestion was almost that Leinster fans didn't understand the complexities.  
They did.  They understood that Cups and Trophies were probably gone for a few years and were quite prepared to accept it.  They were quite ready to accept rebuilding.  What they weren't prepared to accept was the utter rubbish passing itself off as rugby far too often through MOC's time.  It wasn't simply bad rugby, it wasn't rugby that was suffering from some key players retiring, it wasn't unlucky rugby - it was often simply non-rugby, so bad as to be embarrassing.  We all knew it, the press knew it, MOC knew it...and BOD knew it.


But back to the present!

Poor Jared. You must have known this was coming Notch. Couple of warm ups and low class opposition and we are back to drop Jared and get in Earls or Fitz. Any reason will do - not a 13 , not an organizer, etc

If the France game wasn't so important I only wish JS would put Fitz or Earls in the centre instead of Payne. That would put an end to this talk.

I see exactly what Notch (and BOD) is saying. Payne stops all those breakthroughs and organizzes the defense that Earls or Fitz will never do. I guess people don't want to see it - at least that's what it looks like with the almost hostility towards payne on here.

Earls and Fitz will do their usual as soon as we play someone good. Best would be to put the posts on the sidelines. That would help a bit.

No one gets attacked on here of late like Payne I wish I knew the reason

Who will get the nod at loosehead? Is this a done deal or still up for grabs?

Who will get the nod at loosehead? Is this a done deal or still up for grabs?

Payne is not getting attacked for his defence, its a very, very solid defence. What I, and a few others including former Irish captains (Wood) and other people are saying is that he looks to be more suited to playing 15 than 13. No shame or horror in that.

The reason I probably react the way I do towards him is not directed at him but at the people that see him as being perfect with no faults.

Notch, you claim his kicking is poor execution and not composure... Look at the Canada game, once kicked out on the full when spreading the ball was a better option and once delayed so long with his kick that it was blocked into touch when speedy players were waiting for the deep kick with no 15 at home. That's a mix of lacking in composure, awareness and execution.

How often do we see him over run his supporting line? Again on Sunday he did that as well as in the Canada game.

He also crabs far too much and pulls defenders wide when there are chances of overlaps, that again a lack of awareness and decision making, something 15's are well known for.

He makes some very good tackles and on Sunday made a great one and turned the ball over BOD'esq but that does not make up for his short comings.

Its great to hear people say, Earls or Zebo were good but look at the team they were playing and that they suspect the bigger teams will find them out. At the same time, Payne has had 2 pretty average games against the same opposition and people don't think he will be found out against better opposition?

I think that he is a good player and can play 13, just feel that he is way off the form he first showed for Ireland which in my opinion puts him behind Henshaw, Cave and Earls at 13 right now as they have (with the exception of Henshaw which we have not seen yet) played the better rugby.

For Italy, if fit, I would start Henshaw at 13 with Cave at 12.

Blanko wrote:Poor Jared. You must have known this was coming Notch. Couple of warm ups and low class opposition and we are back to drop Jared and get in Earls or Fitz. Any reason will do - not a 13 , not an organizer, etc

If the France game wasn't so important I only wish JS would put Fitz or Earls in the centre instead of Payne. That would put an end to this talk.

I see exactly what Notch (and BOD) is saying. Payne stops all those breakthroughs and organizzes the defense that Earls or Fitz will never do. I guess people don't want to see it - at least that's what it looks like with the almost hostility towards payne on here.  

Earls and Fitz will do their usual as soon as we play someone good. Best would be to put the posts on the sidelines. That would help a bit.

No one gets attacked on here of late like Payne I wish I knew the reason

This is what Matt Williams had to say about Payne:

"He's making really poor decisions: he's kicking the ball all the time and he's kicking very badly," said Williams of Payne.

"He's not making breaks. He's running across field.

"So, you can tick just about every box for doing things wrong as an outside centre in attack.

"I certainly do not believe that for us to go deep in the tournament that's going to be good enough.

"We have to get some centres that are going to show the ability to go through teams."

Williams says the outside centre should be Darren Cave. ROG thinks it should be Luke Fitz. The one thing in common they all have is that they don't rate Payne as an outside centre.

Notch wrote:Brian O'Driscoll on Payne;

"I really have to say any of the stick he is gotten is completely unfounded. I really believe he is the glue in this team that is combining what we have at half-back with the talent we have on our wings and full-back now."

I heard this on newstalk last night too and to be honest BOD would know a little more than Matt Williams in my opinion. Payne has been perfectly good. He is only being criticised because there is a Munster player (Earls) that could potentially take his place.

Thats usually the way it goes.

GunsGerms wrote:

Notch wrote:Brian O'Driscoll on Payne;

"I really have to say any of the stick he is gotten is completely unfounded. I really believe he is the glue in this team that is combining what we have at half-back with the talent we have on our wings and full-back now."

I heard this on newstalk last night too and to be honest BOD would know a little more than Matt Williams in my opinion. Payne has been perfectly good. He is only being criticised because there is a Munster player (Earls) that could potentially take his place.

Thats usually the way it goes.

Earls is the only nailed down starter in the outside backs at this stage. Why would we bother?

On the wing though. I like Earls too but I think Dave Kearney has been our top performing back. Earls is a try scoring machine so he will get game time.