Ireland vs Romania, 27 September

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IRELAND v ROMANIA
27 September 2015
KO: 16:45 BST
Wembley Stadium, London
Live on ITV1 (United Kingdom) and TV3 (Republic of Ireland)

Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
Assistant Referee 1; Romain Poite (France)
Assistant Referee 2; Leighton Hodges (Wales)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

Teams

IRELAND



15. Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)
14. Tommy Bowe (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
13. Jared Payne (Ulster)
12. Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins/Ulster)
11. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster)
10. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster)
9. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster)

1. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster)
2. Richardt Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster)
3. Nathan White (Connacht)
4. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
5. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster)
6. Jordi Murphy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
7. Chris Henry (Malone/Ulster)
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) captain

Replacements;

16. Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17. Jack McGrath (St Mary's College/Leinster)
18. Tadhg Furlong (Clontarf/Leinster)
19. Paul O'Connell (Young Munster)
20. Sean O'Brien (UCD/Leinster)
21. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
22. Paddy Jackson (Dungannon)
23. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)

ROMANIA



15. Catalin Fercu
14. Adrian Apostol
13. Paula Kinikinilau
12. Csaba Gal
11. Ionut Botezatu
10. Michael Wiringi
9. Valentin Calafeteanu

1. Andrei Ursache
2. Andrei Radoi
3. Paulica Ion
4. Valentin Poparlan
5. Ovidiu Tonita
6. Viorel Lucaci
7. Mihai Macovei (c)
8. Daniel Carpo

Replacements

16. Mihaita Lazar
17. Otar Turashvili
18. Alexandru Tarus
19. Johannes van Heerden
20.Stelian Burcea
21. Florin Surugiu
22. Florin Ionita
23. Florin Vlaicu

Head to Head

Played; 8
Ireland Won; 8
Romania Won; 0
Draws; 0

Last 5 Meetings

Ireland 43 - 12 Romania
26th November 2005
Lansdowne Road, Dublin

Ireland 45 - 17 Romania
11th October 2003
Rugby World Cup 2003, Pool A, Match 3
Central Coast Stadium, Gosford

Ireland 39 - 8 Romania
7th September 2002
Thomond Park, Limerick

Romania 3 - 37 Ireland
2nd June 2001
Bucharest

Ireland 44 - 14 Romania
15th October 1999
Rugby World Cup 1999, Pool E, Match 27
Lansdowne Road, Dublin

Sin é wrote:Peter Stringer's criticism of Payne wasn't over the top.

Stringer got 100 caps because he went to school with ROG - he wants to be toning down is criticism a bit and not losing the run of himself. What would he know about making linebreaks.

If Schmidt, BOD, D'arcy and Henshaw all think he's the best player in the camp that's good enough.

ME-109 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Munchkin wrote:P.s BOD couldn't kick for toffee either.

No of course he couldnt.

He was actually rubbish when he was first capped (admitted it himself) but worked his socks off to improve that. Also his distribution and passing was poor initially...another area he became great at but in the beginning both areas were not particularly good.

He wasnt rubbish. He was out half for Blackrock in his final senior cup run in school and he also dropped a goal in the 2003 world cup. It may not have been his biggest strength but of course he could kick.

Speaking of BOD.  He came up a while ago and he's come up again.  It seems his opinion of Payne is more trustworthy than Williams's?  Maybe so.

But then, if so, what else is BOD saying?  BOD has become a strange one indeed.  And sometimes I think he's very much part of the Schmidt IRFU plans as he struts around saying one thing to the press and then another and then another.

BOD made it known earlier that he had a chat with Schmidt a while back after the two warmup defeats and he said Joe was okay with the results as he was looking for specific things and results weren't really prominent on that list.  He also said Joe alluded to the idea that he was keeping his powder dry - not showing his full hand and certainly giving nothing to Canada before that first game.

Then BOD gets around to defending Payne and says he's creative enough and is a bonus in the middle of the field.  But he goes on to virtually then mimic Williams himself in saying he wants to see more from the Irish side:

"We'll probably have to take a few more risks. We're a team that's very capable of bringing a team through multiple phases. You look at the top quality sides in the world, where they don't appear to have to put in quite as much effort as we do for our scores or penalties. That comes down to an off-loading game and a small bit of risk taking. I don't think we take enough risks personally.
Our first passage of play [against Romania] was over three minutes and we got nothing out of it. That would be the only concern for me."

This from a guy who acknowledges that Joe as much as said to him the shutters are down on anything he really plans to bring to bigger games.  So he's telling the world Joe has more to give but thinks the team aren't giving enough and it worries him.

He's on the IRFU payrole - sowing the seeds of confusion.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:Peter Stringer's criticism of Payne wasn't over the top.

Stringer got 100 caps because he went to school with ROG - he wants to be toning down is criticism a bit and not losing the run of himself. What would he know about making linebreaks.

If Schmidt, BOD, D'arcy and Henshaw all think he's the best player in the camp that's good enough.  

Quite a bit.

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:Peter Stringer's criticism of Payne wasn't over the top.

Stringer got 100 caps because he went to school with ROG - he wants to be toning down is criticism a bit and not losing the run of himself. What would he know about making linebreaks.

If Schmidt, BOD, D'arcy and Henshaw all think he's the best player in the camp that's good enough.  

Quite a bit.

Mike Ross has made more.

What is interesting about the Payne debate is the level of analysis, such as it is, on the outside centre position and very little applied on Henshaw at 12. Henshaw has certainly not set the world alight at 12 and Payne probably had a better Six Nations. Yet because he is Irish and young he seems to get a free pass.

Henshaw, just as much as Payne, has a tendency to run sideways when there is a bit of space. At provincial level that may create half a gap, but at international level it just closes down space and makes things harder for the wingers. Payne was much better at this against Romania, though I think it helps he had Bowe and Earls outside him, both of whom tend to sit a little bit deeper and hold their positions giving a little more natural width. Kearney and Trimble sometimes come inside too often looking for work- it tends to narrow the pitch even if they are often more involved in matches.

I was at the match on Sunday and it is quite clear in the stadium that Payne was organising the defence. I'm pretty sure that Schmidt said that Payne organised the defence during the Six Nations in an interview at that time. I can't find that interview so happy to be corrected. However Television coverage creates a false narrative of these things. Payne was clearly trying to organise Cave and the wingers and was pointing at them a lot to get them into position. I don't think any of that comes across in the snapshots you might see on television.

SecretFly wrote:Speaking of BOD.  He came up a while ago and he's come up again.  It seems his opinion of Payne is more trustworthy than Williams's?  Maybe so.

But then, if so, what else is BOD saying?  BOD has become a strange one indeed.  And sometimes I think he's very much part of the Schmidt IRFU plans as he struts around saying one thing to the press and then another and then another.

BOD made it known earlier that he had a chat with Schmidt a while back after the two warmup defeats and he said Joe was okay with the results as he was looking for specific things and results weren't really prominent on that list.  He also said Joe alluded to the idea that he was keeping his powder dry - not showing his full hand and certainly giving nothing to Canada before that first game.

Then BOD gets around to defending Payne and says he's creative enough and is a bonus in the middle of the field.  But he goes on to virtually then mimic Williams himself in saying he wants to see more from the Irish side:

"We'll probably have to take a few more risks. We're a team that's very capable of bringing a team through multiple phases. You look at the top quality sides in the world, where they don't appear to have to put in quite as much effort as we do for our scores or penalties. That comes down to an off-loading game and a small bit of risk taking. I don't think we take enough risks personally.
Our first passage of play [against Romania] was over three minutes and we got nothing out of it. That would be the only concern for me."

This from a guy who acknowledges that Joe as much as said to him the shutters are down on anything he really plans to bring to bigger games.  So he's telling the world Joe has more to give but thinks the team aren't giving enough and it worries him.

He's on the IRFU payrole - sowing the seeds of confusion.

You becoming as paranoid as Munster fans.

Schmidt having some moves up his slieves for the big games is not the same as individuals taking more risks on the field of play.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:Peter Stringer's criticism of Payne wasn't over the top.

Stringer got 100 caps because he went to school with ROG - he wants to be toning down is criticism a bit and not losing the run of himself. What would he know about making linebreaks.

If Schmidt, BOD, D'arcy and Henshaw all think he's the best player in the camp that's good enough.  

Quite a bit.

Mike Ross has made more.

Now I know for sure who you are rodders. You are clearly Ian Humphries....a man who made RoG look like the most destructive defender on the planet. Still jealous he was better than your big brother....

Here's Mike Ross making a break...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl5JDRMKhA8

GunsGerms wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Speaking of BOD.  He came up a while ago and he's come up again.  It seems his opinion of Payne is more trustworthy than Williams's?  Maybe so.

But then, if so, what else is BOD saying?  BOD has become a strange one indeed.  And sometimes I think he's very much part of the Schmidt IRFU plans as he struts around saying one thing to the press and then another and then another.

BOD made it known earlier that he had a chat with Schmidt a while back after the two warmup defeats and he said Joe was okay with the results as he was looking for specific things and results weren't really prominent on that list.  He also said Joe alluded to the idea that he was keeping his powder dry - not showing his full hand and certainly giving nothing to Canada before that first game.

Then BOD gets around to defending Payne and says he's creative enough and is a bonus in the middle of the field.  But he goes on to virtually then mimic Williams himself in saying he wants to see more from the Irish side:

"We'll probably have to take a few more risks. We're a team that's very capable of bringing a team through multiple phases. You look at the top quality sides in the world, where they don't appear to have to put in quite as much effort as we do for our scores or penalties. That comes down to an off-loading game and a small bit of risk taking. I don't think we take enough risks personally.
Our first passage of play [against Romania] was over three minutes and we got nothing out of it. That would be the only concern for me."

This from a guy who acknowledges that Joe as much as said to him the shutters are down on anything he really plans to bring to bigger games.  So he's telling the world Joe has more to give but thinks the team aren't giving enough and it worries him.

He's on the IRFU payrole - sowing the seeds of confusion.

You becoming as paranoid as Munster fans.

Schmidt having some moves up his slieves for the big games is not the same as individuals taking more risks on the field of play.

BODs a well known Munster fan...

Kearney has been cleared fit. Are Ireland, Argentina and maybe NZ the only major squads who havent had to call up players so far?

Wales injuries:
Scott Williams & Hallum Amos

England:
Vunapola

SA:
DeVilliers

France:
Huget

Australia:
Palu & Skelton

Scotland:
Grant Gilchrist

ME-109 wrote:

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:Peter Stringer's criticism of Payne wasn't over the top.

Stringer got 100 caps because he went to school with ROG - he wants to be toning down is criticism a bit and not losing the run of himself. What would he know about making linebreaks.

If Schmidt, BOD, D'arcy and Henshaw all think he's the best player in the camp that's good enough.  

Quite a bit.

Mike Ross has made more.

Now I know for sure who you are rodders. You are clearly Ian Humphries....a man who made RoG look like the most destructive defender on the planet. Still jealous he was better than your big brother....

Here's Mike Ross making a break...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl5JDRMKhA8

Poor Ian, talk about a guy with x-factor - between him and big bro they were cheated out of 100 odd caps because of ROG threatening to take his toys home if he wasn't picked.

Cave commenting on Williams waffle:

Ex-Scotland coach Williams slammed Payne for "making really poor decisions" and kicking too frequently against Romania - but Cave believes the New Zealand-born centre is in prime form.

"In fairness to Jared I'd be surprised if he's paid much attention to it, but if it was me I would probably be pretty annoyed," said Cave.

"It can be frustrating when guys are just throwing out opinions which aren't based on facts of what actually happened in the game, then suddenly that becomes everyone else's opinion of guys who've had a couple of beers and watched the game.

"Then after a week it's the perception of half the nation and it's just completely false.

"At the end of the day it can be frustrating at times but Jared will do the right thing, he'll keep his head down, he'll keep working hard and he'll keep playing well for Ireland.

"The first I heard about it was after Tommy (Bowe) had been in Monday's press conference, because Tommy and I had actually had a chat last week about how much we were both looking forward to playing beside him.

"So Tommy brought it up but it's not something that consumes us.

"I actually thought the Canada game was potentially Jared's best game in green.

"I haven't seen fully what was said about him but I've seen a few things.

"And it's just opinion at the end of the day, it's not really based on fact.

"I heard about him apparently kicking the ball away too much but I think he kicked the ball twice and both times it was penalty advantage, and both times we went back for the penalty.

"So we'll deal with facts not opinions.

"And I really enjoyed playing alongside him when I was named at 12 and he was named at 13 beside me, I knew I'd feel very comfortable in there."

"Jared's an incredible communicator and a lot of his qualities, you can almost see the way he's been brought up, everything he does is so simple," said Cave.

"I think he sees space really well, he makes really good, strong decisions on the ball and he's a good communicator so he's really good to defend with.

"And at the end of the day you want to play with guys who make your job easier, and the amount of information he gives you, I think he's done very well for Ireland over the past while.

"And if anything I suppose I'd be a bit jealous that I haven't got as many games as he has over the last year and done as well as he has."

PayneTakesNoHeed

Gees imagine the stick Jared would get if we lost.

If he scored a hattrick TV3 would give motm to his opposite number.

rodders wrote:Gees imagine the stick Jared would get if we lost.

If he scored a hattrick TV3 would give motm to his opposite number.

Matt Williams doesnt like Payne because he is a Kiwi. Its an Aussie thing.

GunsGerms wrote:Kearney has been cleared fit. Are Ireland, Argentina and maybe NZ the only major squads who havent had to call up players so far?

Wales injuries:
Scott Williams & Hallum Amos

England:
Vunapola

SA:
DeVilliers

France:
Huget

Australia:
Palu & Skelton

Scotland:
Grant Gilchrist

Actually I think Matias Diaz was due to fly out for Argentina but got injured before he left Argentina for England.

So far so good for Ireland re injuries. Wales' camp doesnt look so smart now as they have actually had 6 injuries:

Leigh Halfpenny: The full-back and prolific points-scorer damaged knee ligaments during Wales' final warm-up game against Italy.

Eli Walker: Called into Wales' squad as a replacement for Halfpenny, but then suffered a hamstring injury and was released seven days later.

Rhys Webb: Wales' in-form scrum-half suffered a serious foot injury in the first half against Italy. Battling to play again this season.

Cory Allen: Wales centre scored three tries against opening opponents Uruguay, then suffered a serious hamstring injury.

Scott Williams: Carried off after suffering a serious knee injury during Wales' Pool A victory over England at Twickenham.

Hallam Amos: Damaged shoulder during the England game as Wales' injury woes continued at an alarming rate.

I do feel for Wales having lost so many players to injury at this stage of the world cup, and we are fortunate not to have lost any really. We haven't faced a really tough test yet though. Hopefully we manage to get past Italy and France without losing any key players. Murray and Sexton, in particular. The France game is going to be brutal. In fact all the games after Italy are going to be brutal. Possibly even the Italian game. Fingers crossed.

Jared Payne is getting a pasting by Matt Williams. Matt Williams

Brilliant. Just brilliant.

GunsGerms wrote:

Schmidt having some moves up his slieves for the big games is not the same as individuals taking more risks on the field of play.

It's the exact same thing. But yeah, I know in this modern parallel universe we all seem to live in, that it isn't if we don't want it to be. Logic is what we all want it to be. More bizarre by the hour.

Munchkin wrote:

I do feel for Wales having lost so many players to injury at this stage of the world cup, and we are fortunate not to have lost any really. We haven't faced a really tough test yet though. Hopefully we manage to get past Italy and France without losing any key players. Murray and Sexton, in particular. The France game is going to be brutal. In fact all the games after Italy are going to be brutal. Possibly even the Italian game. Fingers crossed.

Partly bad luck, partly brought on by Gatland's own over-zealous obsessions. He makes players and breaks them.... Shane Williams retired to escape him.

Exiled Gael wrote:What is interesting about the Payne debate is the level of analysis, such as it is, on the outside centre position and very little applied on Henshaw at 12. Henshaw has certainly not set the world alight at 12 and Payne probably had a better Six Nations. Yet because he is Irish and young he seems to get a free pass.

Henshaw, just as much as Payne, has a tendency to run sideways when there is a bit of space. At provincial level that may create half a gap, but at international level it just closes down space and makes things harder for the wingers. Payne was much better at this against Romania, though I think it helps he had Bowe and Earls outside him, both of whom tend to sit a little bit deeper and hold their positions giving a little more natural width. Kearney and Trimble sometimes come inside too often looking for work- it tends to narrow the pitch even if they are often more involved in matches.

I was at the match on Sunday and it is quite clear in the stadium that Payne was organising the defence. I'm pretty sure that Schmidt said that Payne organised the defence during the Six Nations in an interview at that time. I can't find that interview so happy to be corrected. However Television coverage creates a false narrative of these things. Payne was clearly trying to organise Cave and the wingers and was pointing at them a lot to get them into position. I don't think any of that comes across in the snapshots you might see on television.  

I don't think the stats or what I saw bear that out at all Gael. Henshaw has made himself an indispensable part of the team, and has shifted his qualities to a new role at 12 to accommodate Payne at 13, with much greater impact. I'm not as down on Payne as others here, I don't think he has let himself down at all, but of the two I know which one is the better 13, the question in the long run is who comes in at 12 so Henshaw can move to 13. Granted Payne is new to the Jersey at this level as well, but at least he has played some rugby at Pro 12 and Super Rugby at 13, Henshaw was a full back before 13, and still looks more at home

I don't know where you think he is getting a free pass? His was top tackler and made the most carries for Ireland in 6N, his aerial game has been better, his kicking has been better, he is more abrasive in the tackle and at the breakdown, and I thought he was used more as an outlet. Of the backs 11-15 he is the one to have most consistently stand up in big games this past year and make himself known in attack and defence.

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

I do feel for Wales having lost so many players to injury at this stage of the world cup, and we are fortunate not to have lost any really. We haven't faced a really tough test yet though. Hopefully we manage to get past Italy and France without losing any key players. Murray and Sexton, in particular. The France game is going to be brutal. In fact all the games after Italy are going to be brutal. Possibly even the Italian game. Fingers crossed.

Partly bad luck, partly brought on by Gatland's own over-zealous obsessions.  He makes players and breaks them.... Shane Williams retired to escape him.  

I wasn't convinced that this brutal training regime was the cause of some of their players injuries, but it's getting harder to argue against. If Gatland is breaking them, the irony is that he's breaking them in trying too hard to help ensure they don't break. Not much of a turn around for Wales before they take on Fiji. Could prove a disaster even if they do win, and manage to limp in to the quarters.

Gatland looks to get it perfect, which is a good thing.  And I'm on record as saying his philosophy on super-conditioning to up the standards of often pretty so-so Pro12 players is a good one, and his results through his time in Wales proves the point.  
But he's become an addict.  It seems it's now never enough.  He tries to go one step above with each competition he enters. And each time Warburton comes out and says the present conditioning regime is much tougher than the last one.  He's been saying similar things now for a long time.
A spring will take the pressure and take the pressure and take the pressure.  But eventually it'll give.  I don't think most of the injuries are bad luck, I think the players are so highly tuned, they're at the cusp of breakdown.  Gatland loves pressure but that's the dice he's throwing.  All or nothing.

Marshes wrote:

Exiled Gael wrote:What is interesting about the Payne debate is the level of analysis, such as it is, on the outside centre position and very little applied on Henshaw at 12. Henshaw has certainly not set the world alight at 12 and Payne probably had a better Six Nations. Yet because he is Irish and young he seems to get a free pass.

Henshaw, just as much as Payne, has a tendency to run sideways when there is a bit of space. At provincial level that may create half a gap, but at international level it just closes down space and makes things harder for the wingers. Payne was much better at this against Romania, though I think it helps he had Bowe and Earls outside him, both of whom tend to sit a little bit deeper and hold their positions giving a little more natural width. Kearney and Trimble sometimes come inside too often looking for work- it tends to narrow the pitch even if they are often more involved in matches.

I was at the match on Sunday and it is quite clear in the stadium that Payne was organising the defence. I'm pretty sure that Schmidt said that Payne organised the defence during the Six Nations in an interview at that time. I can't find that interview so happy to be corrected. However Television coverage creates a false narrative of these things. Payne was clearly trying to organise Cave and the wingers and was pointing at them a lot to get them into position. I don't think any of that comes across in the snapshots you might see on television.  

I don't think the stats or what I saw bear that out at all Gael. Henshaw has made himself an indispensable part of the team, and has shifted his qualities to a new role at 12 to accommodate Payne at 13, with much greater impact. I'm not as down on Payne as others here, I don't think he has let himself down at all, but of the two I know which one is the better 13, the question in the long run is who comes in at 12 so Henshaw can move to 13. Granted Payne is new to the Jersey at this level as well, but at least he has played some rugby at Pro 12 and Super Rugby at 13, Henshaw was a full back before 13, and still looks more at home

I don't know where you think he is getting a free pass? His was top tackler and made the most carries for Ireland in 6N, his aerial game has been better, his kicking has been better, he is more abrasive in the tackle and at the breakdown, and I thought he was used more as an outlet. Of the backs 11-15 he is the one to have most consistently stand up in big games this past year and make himself known in attack and defence.

Henshaw missed the most tackles in green in the Six Nations and was turned over the most. You didn't mention that in your statement except to say Henshaw was the better 13 despite never really playing at 13 at senior international level. There are things Henshaw has done better, there are things Payne had done better. But one is subject to more intensive analysis than the other. This is a problem when so many fans default position is to defend players from their own province and speak in general hyperbole. in truth neither Henshaw or Payne are really top quality international centres. Payne probably never will but will be a perfectly serviceable stopgap. Henshaw may grow into a good international centre but they deserve to be analysed fairly and equally without inherent bias. This is a problem in this forum and in the media in general. Bar saying that Payne had his best game in green (nonsense), Cave is absolutely spot on on Matt Williams and how some fans come up with their opinions.

You could well be right, Fly. Being conditioned to the point of breaking is something that you can maybe get away with in athletics, but rugby being the contact game that it is, isn't just as certain, and the risk of injury much higher and much more unpredictable. A huge gamble to push players to the edge, as you say, and maybe one that's badly backfired.

One thing Gatland does deserve credit for is that the Welsh squad fight for each other, and every inch of territory. Great team spirit.

Exiled Gael wrote:

Marshes wrote:

Exiled Gael wrote:What is interesting about the Payne debate is the level of analysis, such as it is, on the outside centre position and very little applied on Henshaw at 12. Henshaw has certainly not set the world alight at 12 and Payne probably had a better Six Nations. Yet because he is Irish and young he seems to get a free pass.

Henshaw, just as much as Payne, has a tendency to run sideways when there is a bit of space. At provincial level that may create half a gap, but at international level it just closes down space and makes things harder for the wingers. Payne was much better at this against Romania, though I think it helps he had Bowe and Earls outside him, both of whom tend to sit a little bit deeper and hold their positions giving a little more natural width. Kearney and Trimble sometimes come inside too often looking for work- it tends to narrow the pitch even if they are often more involved in matches.

I was at the match on Sunday and it is quite clear in the stadium that Payne was organising the defence. I'm pretty sure that Schmidt said that Payne organised the defence during the Six Nations in an interview at that time. I can't find that interview so happy to be corrected. However Television coverage creates a false narrative of these things. Payne was clearly trying to organise Cave and the wingers and was pointing at them a lot to get them into position. I don't think any of that comes across in the snapshots you might see on television.  

I don't think the stats or what I saw bear that out at all Gael. Henshaw has made himself an indispensable part of the team, and has shifted his qualities to a new role at 12 to accommodate Payne at 13, with much greater impact. I'm not as down on Payne as others here, I don't think he has let himself down at all, but of the two I know which one is the better 13, the question in the long run is who comes in at 12 so Henshaw can move to 13. Granted Payne is new to the Jersey at this level as well, but at least he has played some rugby at Pro 12 and Super Rugby at 13, Henshaw was a full back before 13, and still looks more at home

I don't know where you think he is getting a free pass? His was top tackler and made the most carries for Ireland in 6N, his aerial game has been better, his kicking has been better, he is more abrasive in the tackle and at the breakdown, and I thought he was used more as an outlet. Of the backs 11-15 he is the one to have most consistently stand up in big games this past year and make himself known in attack and defence.

Henshaw missed the most tackles in green in the Six Nations and was turned over the most. You didn't mention that in your statement except to say Henshaw was the better 13 despite never really playing at 13 at senior international level. There are things Henshaw has done better, there are things Payne had done better. But one is subject to more intensive analysis than the other. This is a problem when so many fans default position is to defend players from their own province and speak in general hyperbole. in truth neither Henshaw or Payne are really top quality international centres. Payne probably never will but will be a perfectly serviceable stopgap. Henshaw may grow into a good international centre but they deserve to be analysed fairly and equally without inherent bias. This is a problem in this forum and in the media in general. Bar saying that Payne had his best game in green (nonsense), Cave is absolutely spot on on Matt Williams and how some fans come up with their opinions.

I did know about the missed tackles but don't think they are reflective of his defensive work, which I'd say is above Payne in terms of numbers, abrasiveness and driving the opposition back. I remember reading an article which reviewed each of Henshaw's missed tackles in the 6N before (Murray Kinsella I think), and he concluded only three were actually missed one-on-one tackles. I remember one particularly where he tried to catch May who was behind his own try-line against England, and it is not something you could call a bad defensive tackle, he made a smart read, played the odds and was very unlucky. He often shoots up out of the line to the first receiver and closes down the space, usually causing lost yards for the opposition by tackling the player or guiding them into the arms of other tacklers.

Other stats I neglected, Henshaw had most defenders beaten for Ireland at 11. Like I say, I think Payne has been good for Ireland, he could be more attacking in ways but heavy lies the 13 Jersey, defensively he has been very solid. I get what you mean that people are asking more of Payne than others but of all players to criticise as coasting in relation to him I think Henshaw is the least guilty. Where do you think Payne has been better?

Also disagree that both do not have the capacity to be test quality centres, but to each their own.

Yes it was Murray Kinsella: http://www.the42.ie/analysis-robbie-henshaw-ireland-centre-2012433-Mar2015/

Would that so many players would have come out of the woodwork and publically give it a lash at all Zebo's critics of a year or two ago.

Jared has had it light in comparison to what Zebo went through - and he's lucky. One Aussie guy having a go in a TV studio.

Maybe the players should stop reading any of the guff (ours included) and just concentrate on themselves and their goals in camp.

SecretFly wrote:Would that so many players would have come out of the woodwork and publically give it a lash at all Zebo's critics of a year or two ago.

Jared has had it light in comparison to what Zebo went through - and he's lucky.  One Aussie guy having a go in a TV studio.  

Maybe the players should stop reading any of the guff (ours included) and just concentrate on themselves and their goals in camp.

To be fair, I don't think Payne has mentioned it at all (I know you haven't said that he has), and if he's aware of it, I don't think he cares much. Some of these sports journalists deserve it thrown back in their face. Some of the other players are put on the spot and asked for a reaction. Saying nothing doesn't look good. Anyway, I'm happy with their response

Exiled Gael wrote:

Henshaw missed the most tackles in green in the Six Nations and was turned over the most. You didn't mention that in your statement except to say Henshaw was the better 13 despite never really playing at 13 at senior international level. There are things Henshaw has done better, there are things Payne had done better. But one is subject to more intensive analysis than the other. This is a problem when so many fans default position is to defend players from their own province and speak in general hyperbole. in truth neither Henshaw or Payne are really top quality international centres. Payne probably never will but will be a perfectly serviceable stopgap. Henshaw may grow into a good international centre but they deserve to be analysed fairly and equally without inherent bias. This is a problem in this forum and in the media in general. Bar saying that Payne had his best game in green (nonsense), Cave is absolutely spot on on Matt Williams and how some fans come up with their opinions.

To be fair a lot of those missed tackles were in broken play, where the ball was kicked deep and Henshaw was the lone chaser. I distinctly remember 1 game in particular where he missed something like 6 tackles, the majority of which were in those conditions. I am fairly certain he is extremely solid for Connacht, if not an aggressive defender, which would be very beneficial in the Irish midfield. We have seen him do this at 12 already.

I also think it is unfair to suggest that Henshaw isn't a top quality centre when he hasn't had the chance to play in his preferred position. He isn't going to be a world beater at 12, that is for sure. His strengths are not suited to the position and I think that is obvious. He doesn't have the same amount of space that allows him to be such a dangerous runner. However, he has huge potential as an outside centre and in my opinion the only challenger to his shirt in the future will be Garry Ringrose.

Lastly, everyone is going to have an intrinsic bias, including yourself. That can't really be avoided for obvious reasons.

Not Payne, Munch.  He's doing the right thing.  Keeping it cool and ignoring.  

Possibly Bowe and Cave should have done the same thing.  Don't give it oxygen OR, more importantly, take it with them into camp.

We don't need any more Screw Ups in Ireland camp where players begin to feel stressed or annoyed and we go in to our usual 4 Yearly Provincial meltdown During a f**king WC!!!!

We don't want any more of that nonsense.  Journalists will be journalists, us social media eejits will be social media eejits - papers gotta be sold, TV's gotta attract its audiences.  It's all business and rugby gains from the business around it (we hear )

So....  

All players in Ireland camp let the media do its business on the outside, and have it's fights and headbutting sessions pro or con any of the players.  Let the players concentrate on their bubble and stop picking up tweets and twitters from buddies on the outside asking them if they read this or that.

"No comment.  We're not interested.  Not this time.  We've been here before"

I hope Schmidt clamps down on players in camp commenting on this stuff.  It distracts and it upsets the preparations.

Marshes - are you happy to see Henshaw at 12, or would you prefer to see him moved to outside centre?

Marshes wrote:Yes it was Murray Kinsella: http://www.the42.ie/analysis-robbie-henshaw-ireland-centre-2012433-Mar2015/

Henshaw certinly deserves his place. I don't thing we've seen the best of him yet for Ireland because of how Ireland played in the 6 nations with the exception of the Scottish match but he is just as comfortable making the hard yards. The next world cup Ireland could have himself, Ringrose, Olding, McCloskey and more as center contenders and they would all be in their mid 20s!

SecretFly wrote:Not Payne, Munch.  He's doing the right thing.  Keeping it cool and ignoring.  

Possibly Bowe and Cave should have done the same thing.  Don't give it oxygen OR, more importantly, take it with them into camp.

We don't need any more Screw Ups in Ireland camp where players begin to feel stressed or annoyed and we go in to our usual 4 Yearly Provincial meltdown During a f**king WC!!!!

We don't want any more of that nonsense.  Journalists will be journalists, us social media eejits will be social media eejits - papers gotta be sold, TV's gotta attract its audiences.  It's all business and rugby gains from the business around it (we hear )

So....  

All players in Ireland camp let the media do its business on the outside, and have it's fights and headbutting sessions pro or con any of the players.  Let the players concentrate on their bubble and stop picking up tweets and twitters from buddies on the outside asking them if they read this or that.

"No comment.  We're not interested.  Not this time.  We've been here before"

I hope Schmidt clamps down on players in camp commenting on this stuff.  It distracts and it upsets the preparations.

Sorry, Fly, I know it wasn't Payne you were pointing at. I added further to my previous comment, and it also explains my thinking on the responses of others. They are put on the spot by the media. No comment doesn't look good at all, and the media, being the media, will put their own spin on a 'no comment', and it will be negative. I think they have to respond, and they may as well put wrongs to right.

Schmidt isn't behind the door in responding to this sort of nonsense himself. This sort of rubbish gets inside the camp, whether it's wanted or not. Journalists help ensure it does.

Thanks for the piece from Murray Kinsella Marshes, his analysis is always very good. I'll have to have a good read but it seems at first glance to put a lot of those missed tackles in perspective.

I think Payne is better defensively, particularly positionally. Henshaw has to improve that area but his age, experience and effectively playing out of position need to be factored in. I disagree that Henshaw is better in the air than Payne, though he is good. Payne is also better in contact situations, in holding for support before going to ground. I think Henshaw has a tendency to go to ground a tad early which may be in part the reason for being turned over more than others in green. But those are all small technical problems that can be ironed out. Both he and Payne, unless running a straight line at first receiver, have a tendency to go sideways too often. That needs fixed immediately. The back three can assist in that as the balance and decision making between coming inside looking for the ball and holding width on the wing hasn't been good. You can see Payne occasionally going sideways because either the full back isn't joining the line or because the winger is simply too wide for a nice flat pass to put him into the space. Payne was particularly crab like in the warm ups, much more so than the Six Nations. The Canadian game was an improvement which may have an awful lot to do with the coaching staff ironing that play out. Earls in particular has good natural instincts when it comes to joining the attack from the wing, something which Kearney, Fitzgerald or Zebo are particularly good at.

I don't think I said that neither could be a test class centre. It maybe read that way. I don't think Payne will be anything more than a decent test centre. At the moment I think he is an average test 13. Henshaw may have the potential to be a good test centre, it's too early to tell. But at the moment he strikes me as an average centre with the potential for a lot more. But I don't think that is unreasonable given they are essentially learning their trade in new positions at the same time and at the highest level. The fact that they are even average centres (by average I mean perfectly decent international standard players but far from world class) is probably better than could have been expected.

Payne's kicking has been poor, though it appears to be largely poor execution than decision making. I haven't seen him enough at Ulster to say whether that is a weakness in his game generally.

Also, Rory, I just saw your post. I'm a Galway man myself living in England so I suppose you might expect me to be more pro-Henshaw. It's just an honest assessment as I see it, but it's only an opinion and I respect Marshes and yours on this. Particularly on the missed tackles which is something I knew about but had forgotten! Maybe it's living in England and it's a reverse case of Hiberniores Hibernis ipsis

???

De World Cup is only won by Olde Men, so the saying goes. Bowe will be 12 by then and Rob Kearney 13.

Same to you, Exiled. I do enjoy reading your detailed analysis of the players and the team. You strike me as someone who may have had a role in coaching of some sort.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Same to you, Exiled. I do enjoy reading your detailed analysis of the players and the team. You strike me as someone who may have had a role in coaching of some sort.

I'm a video analyst and forwards coach at an English grammar school with more money than sense. Wasn't like that when I was at school. As an aside we had drug testing two weeks ago. At schools rugby. Think about that for a second. One boy from another big school was banned last year for taking banned stimulants. The young guy was a second row and a really good young player but was told he was overweight and started taking diet pills which cause him to fail a test. That's English schools rugby for you.

Munchkin wrote:They are put on the spot by the media. No comment doesn't look good at all

It always looks good to me.  

Such questions are easily fended off in a pleasant but direct way.  "We'll leave that stuff to you guys.  We're too busy concentrating on ourselves, our detail, our homework and our future opponents.  You'll have your opinions on us but we still have to go out and perform for our people, our fans and ourselves."

You can say no comment without directly saying 'no comment' - but you can also be quite direct in hinting that "we're not going to be riled by any of this to give you guys columns"  

We don't want to get like England once were, where the media actively wanted to create tensions and discord in order to tell their big dramatic tales and sell their papers.  Money.
We don't want to go down that route.  The attitude should be: "Ask us some direct rugby questions.  Don't ask us to comment on what one media guy said to another media guy"

Exiled Gael wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Same to you, Exiled. I do enjoy reading your detailed analysis of the players and the team. You strike me as someone who may have had a role in coaching of some sort.

I'm a video analyst and forwards coach at an English grammar school with more money than sense. Wasn't like that when I was at school. As an aside we had drug testing two weeks ago. At schools rugby. Think about that for a second. One boy from another big school was banned last year for taking banned stimulants. The young guy was a second row and a really good young player but was told he was overweight and started taking diet pills which cause him to fail a test. That's English schools rugby for you.

That is madness, but the pressure to make it to the top level would certainly drive many to seek extreme measures. I am hopeful that the modern game seems to be gravitating towards more mobile players from 1-15, and that will encourage players to develop more power for their size rather than becoming 120kg monstrosities. I'm not convinced that the likes of Vunipola/Skelton/Basteraud are better for it.

Bastareaud is looking a lot better than he used to look. Healthier, stronger, more mobile. I've been quietly impressed with the transformation from when he first came on the scene and well.................. often looked zoned out.

SecretFly wrote:

Munchkin wrote:They are put on the spot by the media. No comment doesn't look good at all

It always looks good to me.  

Such questions are easily fended off in a pleasant but direct way.  "We'll leave that stuff to you guys.  We're too busy concentrating on ourselves, our detail, our homework and our future opponents.  You'll have your opinions on us but we still have to go out and perform for our people, our fans and ourselves."

You can say no comment without directly saying 'no comment' - but you can also be quite direct in hinting that "we're not going to be riled by any of this to give you guys columns"  

We don't want to get like England once were, where the media actively wanted to create tensions and discord in order to tell their big dramatic tales and sell their papers.  Money.
We don't want to go down that route.  The attitude should be: "Ask us some direct rugby questions.  Don't ask us to comment on what one media guy said to another media guy"

With the English media example I don't think you're comparing like for like. Players making an ejit of themselves are fair game for the media. Players doing their job, and being criticised unfairly isn't. The former should be responded with a 'no comment', the latter with reasoned response.

We're not going to agree, Fly

I have found, particularly at junior level, that players are less disciplined in defence and go looking for the big Hollywood hits than concentrating on technique. It's a clear effect from the professional game and the likes of Rugby Dump on Facebook. We had four representative players last season and two of them could only tackle properly with one shoulder and it drove me mad. Keith Earls, Leigh Halfpenny and to a lesser extent POM have had that problem. There are loads of players who have the same flaw. Halfpenny in particular gets himself into some horrible body positions and it lucky he hasn't had more head and neck injuries.

We're obviously not, Munch.  

Meanwhile, over in England some English players, already under the growing critical spotlight, are commenting on some old guff from Will Carling.

One , can't remember which, said something like "It pi-sses me off to hear that stuff.  He knows nothing and none of us care what he says."

England will implode again if this keeps up.  If the players are honest that they 'don't care' (they're not ) - but if they say it, then act it.  Don't let the outside in.  If the outside gets in then the team begins to crumble.

The Payne thing is a molehill made into a mountain.  I hope the boys forget it now and move on.

SecretFly wrote:We're obviously not, Munch.  

Meanwhile, over in England some English players, already under the growing critical spotlight, are commenting on some old guff from Will Carling.

One , can't remember which, said something like "It pi-sses me off to hear that stuff.  He knows nothing and none of us care what he says."

England will implode again if this keeps up.  If the players are honest that they 'don't care' (they're not ) - but if they say it, then act it.  Don't let the outside in.  If the outside gets in then the team begins to crumble.

The Payne thing is a molehill made into a mountain.  I hope the boys forget it now and move on.

I'm sure they will, Fly. There's bigger things to occupy their minds now. Payne will be fine, I'm sure, and continue to give his best on the field. Maybe get someone else to kick badly and make sure of the penalty though. No, I'm not counting the one that lead to a Canada try

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Marshes - are you happy to see Henshaw at 12, or would you prefer to see him moved to outside centre?

Definitely see his future at 13. Seeing him play frequently for Connacht the difference between when he is available and when he is not is immense. In the early part of last season when Connacht were playing well, the centre partnership between Henshaw at 13 and Aki at 12 was a big part of that, and in the qualifier for Europe against Gloucester at the tail-end of the season he was the best player on the pitch. I think that is where his long term future is when some of the more viable 12 options come of age (McCloskey or Olding most notably.) Even accounting for that fact he is out of position, he has still been the best option at 12 for Ireland since D'Arcy dropped the jersey (although Luke Marshall was very unlucky with injuries, and Luke Fitz was good there also against Canada). Right now though, happy with any combination of Henshaw at 12 and Payne/Earls outside or even Cave at 12 and Henshaw at 13.

Exiled Gael wrote:Thanks for the piece from Murray Kinsella Marshes, his analysis is always very good. I'll have to have a good read but it seems at first glance to put a lot of those missed tackles in perspective.

I think Payne is better defensively, particularly positionally. Henshaw has to improve that area but his age, experience and effectively playing out of position need to be factored in. I disagree that Henshaw is better in the air than Payne, though he is good. Payne is also better in contact situations, in holding for support before going to ground. I think Henshaw has a tendency to go to ground a tad early which may be in part the reason for being turned over more than others in green. But those are all small technical problems that can be ironed out. Both he and Payne, unless running a straight line at first receiver, have a tendency to go sideways too often. That needs fixed immediately. The back three can assist in that as the balance and decision making between coming inside looking for the ball and holding width on the wing hasn't been good. You can see Payne occasionally going sideways because either the full back isn't joining the line or because the winger is simply too wide for a nice flat pass to put him into the space. Payne was particularly crab like in the warm ups, much more so than the Six Nations. The Canadian game was an improvement which may have an awful lot to do with the coaching staff ironing that play out. Earls in particular has good natural instincts when it comes to joining the attack from the wing, something which Kearney, Fitzgerald or Zebo are particularly good at.

I don't think I said that neither could be a test class centre. It maybe read that way. I don't think Payne will be anything more than a decent test centre. At the moment I think he is an average test 13. Henshaw may have the potential to be a good test centre, it's too early to tell. But at the moment he strikes me as an average centre with the potential for a lot more. But I don't think that is unreasonable given they are essentially learning their trade in new positions at the same time and at the highest level. The fact that they are even average centres (by average I mean perfectly decent international standard players but far from world class) is probably better than could have been expected.

Payne's kicking has been poor, though it appears to be largely poor execution than decision making. I haven't seen him enough at Ulster to say whether that is a weakness in his game generally.

Also, Rory, I just saw your post. I'm a Galway man myself living in England so I suppose you might expect me to be more pro-Henshaw. It's just an honest assessment as I see it, but it's only an opinion and I respect Marshes and yours on this. Particularly on the missed tackles which is something I knew about but had forgotten! Maybe it's living in England and it's a reverse case of Hiberniores Hibernis ipsis

Very strong analysis there Gael, as expected given your experience you state below! I'll defo keep a closer eye on the back moves around Henshaw and Payne now, I don't doubt my perception of their respective qualities is probably somewhat coloured

To be fair to the two lads aswell, they are taking on the hefty burden of redeveloping the centre positions for Ireland after years of consistency to the point of stagnation. And both out of what I would think their best positions. Beyond that, as has been discussed often here, they are operating within the roles Joe has given them (as are those around them), and this being their first year out of the box as the centre partnership, that was always going to focus on some key areas of ball retention, defensive solidity. Maybe this has been at the expense of free-flowing offloading rugby (if that is even in the repertoire) not helped by a lack of consistency on the wings or full-back.

Some of the things you mention above for Payne will hopefully come with time and experience for Henshaw such as nowing how to secure the ball better, but he seems to have a good head on his shoulders and can learn a lot from Payne too. But I definitely think he is the future at 13 and if he can bring some of his Connacht quality there to the national set-up it can be a focal point for the team.

https://www.606v2.com/t60749-ireland-v-italy-4-october

Jaysus Notch - do I have to do everything myself (blah, p!ss, moan, etc)?

Exiled Gael wrote:
Henshaw missed the most tackles in green in the Six Nations and was turned over the most. You didn't mention that in your statement except to say Henshaw was the better 13 despite never really playing at 13 at senior international level. There are things Henshaw has done better, there are things Payne had done better. But one is subject to more intensive analysis than the other. This is a problem when so many fans default position is to defend players from their own province and speak in general hyperbole. in truth neither Henshaw or Payne are really top quality international centres. Payne probably never will but will be a perfectly serviceable stopgap. Henshaw may grow into a good international centre but they deserve to be analysed fairly and equally without inherent bias. This is a problem in this forum and in the media in general. Bar saying that Payne had his best game in green (nonsense), Cave is absolutely spot on on Matt Williams and how some fans come up with their opinions.

Good man Gael - finally a bit of sense. The double standards in scrutiny in Irish rugby is pretty shocking to be honest, probably reflective of the divisions and tribal nature of the culture.

Interesting that Payne too got a huge amount of stick from Ulster supporters too who were staunch supporters of Cave.

You don't see Scottish fans jumping on Visser or Maitland in the same way.

Re: Payne - he hasn't set the world alight but consistently he has topped the defensive stats, metres made - breaking the gainline from midfield was a major problem in BOD/Dary's latter years something Payne has gone a long way to fixing this and providing a midfield target and strike runner to play off.

His running lines off the ball are really good, as his support play - with so many breaks or half breaks he is he first support player.

As Schmidt says - he likes players who make others look good and Payne is head and shoulders ahead of the other backs at the minute at this.

SecretFly wrote:Would that so many players would have come out of the woodwork and publically give it a lash at all Zebo's critics of a year or two ago.

Jared has had it light in comparison to what Zebo went through - and he's lucky.  One Aussie guy having a go in a TV studio.  

Maybe the players should stop reading any of the guff (ours included) and just concentrate on themselves and their goals in camp.

Zebo deserved it though. Thats the difference.

Marshes wrote:

Exiled Gael wrote:Thanks for the piece from Murray Kinsella Marshes, his analysis is always very good. I'll have to have a good read but it seems at first glance to put a lot of those missed tackles in perspective.

I think Payne is better defensively, particularly positionally. Henshaw has to improve that area but his age, experience and effectively playing out of position need to be factored in. I disagree that Henshaw is better in the air than Payne, though he is good. Payne is also better in contact situations, in holding for support before going to ground. I think Henshaw has a tendency to go to ground a tad early which may be in part the reason for being turned over more than others in green. But those are all small technical problems that can be ironed out. Both he and Payne, unless running a straight line at first receiver, have a tendency to go sideways too often. That needs fixed immediately. The back three can assist in that as the balance and decision making between coming inside looking for the ball and holding width on the wing hasn't been good. You can see Payne occasionally going sideways because either the full back isn't joining the line or because the winger is simply too wide for a nice flat pass to put him into the space. Payne was particularly crab like in the warm ups, much more so than the Six Nations. The Canadian game was an improvement which may have an awful lot to do with the coaching staff ironing that play out. Earls in particular has good natural instincts when it comes to joining the attack from the wing, something which Kearney, Fitzgerald or Zebo are particularly good at.

I don't think I said that neither could be a test class centre. It maybe read that way. I don't think Payne will be anything more than a decent test centre. At the moment I think he is an average test 13. Henshaw may have the potential to be a good test centre, it's too early to tell. But at the moment he strikes me as an average centre with the potential for a lot more. But I don't think that is unreasonable given they are essentially learning their trade in new positions at the same time and at the highest level. The fact that they are even average centres (by average I mean perfectly decent international standard players but far from world class) is probably better than could have been expected.

Payne's kicking has been poor, though it appears to be largely poor execution than decision making. I haven't seen him enough at Ulster to say whether that is a weakness in his game generally.

Also, Rory, I just saw your post. I'm a Galway man myself living in England so I suppose you might expect me to be more pro-Henshaw. It's just an honest assessment as I see it, but it's only an opinion and I respect Marshes and yours on this. Particularly on the missed tackles which is something I knew about but had forgotten! Maybe it's living in England and it's a reverse case of Hiberniores Hibernis ipsis

Very strong analysis there Gael, as expected given your experience you state below! I'll defo keep a closer eye on the back moves around Henshaw and Payne now, I don't doubt my perception of their respective qualities is probably somewhat coloured

To be fair to the two lads aswell, they are taking on the hefty burden of redeveloping the centre positions for Ireland after years of consistency to the point of stagnation. And both out of what I would think their best positions. Beyond that, as has been discussed often here, they are operating within the roles Joe has given them (as are those around them), and this being their first year out of the box as the centre partnership, that was always going to focus on some key areas of ball retention, defensive solidity. Maybe this has been at the expense of free-flowing offloading rugby (if that is even in the repertoire) not helped by a lack of consistency on the wings or full-back.

Some of the things you mention above for Payne will hopefully come with time and experience for Henshaw such as nowing how to secure the ball better, but he seems to have a good head on his shoulders and can learn a lot from Payne too. But I definitely think he is the future at 13 and if he can bring some of his Connacht quality there to the national set-up it can be a focal point for the team.

I wouldn't want it to seem that I don't rate Henshaw. I rate Henshaw more highly than Payne, but if I had to choose one to start at 13 tomorrow.... I don't know. It's tough. I think Payne probably has more of the fundamentals but there are things Henshaw does really well that Payne isn't currently doing at 13. Part of that may be instinct and part might be game plan. I'd bite your hand off for a fit Olding-Henshaw axis in 2016-2017 though. That's the future for me. Haven't seen a lot of McCloskey at Ulster, though I was surprised at how good a step he has. I've only seen him a handful of times and he steps far better off one foot than the other so he would need to work or that, but he seems much more than a big bosh merchant. A similar sort of player in many respects to Henshaw, though perhaps a year or two behind development wise which will come over time.