Doug Fischer top 20

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[list=null]
[*]Sugar Ray Robinson
[*]Henry Armstrong
[*]Willie Pep
[*]Ezzard Charles
[*]Muhammad Ali
[*]Archie Moore
[*]Joe Louis
[*]Roberto Duran
[*]Billy Conn
[*]Sugar Ray Leonard
[*]Pernell Whitaker
[*]Julio Cesar Chavez
[*]Ike Williams
[*]Emile Griffith
[*]Carlos Ortiz
[*]Sandy Saddler
[*]Jimmy Bivins
[*]Sammy Angott
[*]Evander Holyfield
[*]Bernard Hopkins
[/list]

Thoughts??

Lance maybe I am the same person as HAZ.

You think Holy could have beaten Lewis at any stage?

Also can I just add, I will no longer be discussing a certain fighter, unless the IV issue is being talked about.

Can't understand how that slipped away like nothing happened.

Lance wrote:You think Holy could have beaten Lewis at any stage?

No, but he was a more accomplished fighter (in terms of achievement).

Because he had a division created for him so he could be a multi-weight world champ (achieving the upper weight with Evan Fields' help).

Wonder how Mr Fields would have coped without his "supplements"

TopHat24/7 wrote:Because he had a division created for him so he could be a multi-weight world champ (achieving the upper weight with Evan Fields' help).

No, because Holyfield recorded better wins (Qawi, Bowe, Tyson etc.) than Lewis.

Qawi yes, but at CW.

The other two weren't that special. No win over Tyson post prison are anything exceptional. And two loses and an extremely close MD win over a guy that, whilst fairly top drawer, ducked Lewis, don't impress.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing Toppy, but Tyson was a huge betting favourite going into their first fight. Not too many gave Evander a snowball in hells chance if truth be told. Considered a massive shock and a very good win for Holyfield in my eyes.

Quiet a few people thought Qawi beat him............Split If I recall.....Holy spent a while in hospital...

While he was taking on deadweights like Dokes and Thomas before Buster...Might have been nice If he'd fought a Witherspoon type.....

Best fighters Holy fought at Heavy were Lewis and Bowe..........They both beat him easy....

No way should Holy be Top 20..

Was a good win Rowley but it was right after he'd been stopped by Bowe..

Rowley wrote:Hindsight is a wonderful thing Toppy, but Tyson was a huge betting favourite going into their first fight. Not too many gave Evander a snowball in hells chance if truth be told. Considered a massive shock and a very good win for Holyfield in my eyes.

More to do with how bad Holyfield was looking than how good Tyson was though.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Qawi yes, but at CW.

The other two weren't that special. No win over Tyson post prison are anything exceptional. And two loses and an extremely close MD win over a guy that, whilst fairly top drawer, ducked Lewis, don't impress.

Tyson wasn't the same fighter post-prison as he was in the late 80's but he was terrorising the division when Holyfield upended him. Tyson would have started a huge favourite over Lewis at that point (who had a real struggle with Ray Mercer). He wasn't what he was but he was blowing away the likes of Bruno and Seldon regardless.

Holyfield fought Bowe three times, Moorer twice, Tyson twice, Lewis twice and one-time heavyweight champions Douglas, Foreman and Holmes (Foreman went on to regain the heavyweight crown while Holmes came within a hair's breadth of dethroining the McCall who'd recently knocked Lewis out). He fought every relevant heavyweight in his era (often multiple times). This is after dominating cruiserweight (becoming the greatest fighter in that division's short history). The Qawi win was sensational.

Lewis can't compete with Evander's resume. Holyfield was faded; Tyson was dogmeat. Klitschko looks a top win in hindsight yet most feel he was lucky to escape with a TKO. Lewis was a superb fighter when he eventually got it together (in '99) but his championship run was blighted by the Rahman defeat.

Holyfield has more wins over better competition (won more titles and scores highly on Fischer's criteria due to being the greatest cruiser all-time).

Scottrf wrote:

Rowley wrote:Hindsight is a wonderful thing Toppy, but Tyson was a huge betting favourite going into their first fight. Not too many gave Evander a snowball in hells chance if truth be told. Considered a massive shock and a very good win for Holyfield in my eyes.

More to do with how bad Holyfield was looking than how good Tyson was though.

That's incorrect. Tyson looked better than ever going in.

Rowley wrote:Hindsight is a wonderful thing Toppy, but Tyson was a huge betting favourite going into their first fight. Not too many gave Evander a snowball in hells chance if truth be told. Considered a massive shock and a very good win for Holyfield in my eyes.

There's nothing wrong with re-evaluating a fight with the benefit of hindsight.

Tyson did not look better than ever going in. He was just beating scared opponents.

Yes he was still strong and fast, but in no way did Tyson look his best. That is ludicrous.

hazharrison wrote:That's incorrect. Tyson looked better than ever going in.

It's not incorrect. It's an opinion. He'd lost to Moorer and Bowe and people didn't think he still had it. Fair enough against Bowe but he should be beating Moorer.

Tyson had a few fights against journeyman, struggled more with Bruno than anyone would have guessed, and beat Seldon. I'm not sure how that form is better than his pre-prison run.

AdamT wrote:Tyson did not look better than ever going in. He was just beating scared opponents.

Yes he was still strong and fast, but in no way did Tyson look his best. That is ludicrous.

That wasn't the view of the specialist press at the time. Dig out some Boxing Monthlys/Ring Mags and have a read.

After Holyfield took him to the cleaners we learned he wasn't the same fighter. We didn't know that going in (hence the odds and the headlines afterwards).

Scottrf wrote:

hazharrison wrote:That's incorrect. Tyson looked better than ever going in.

It's not incorrect. It's an opinion. He'd lost to Moorer and Bowe and people didn't think he still had it. Fair enough against Bowe but he should be beating Moorer.

Tyson had a few fights against journeyman, struggled more with Bruno than anyone would have guessed, and beat Seldon. I'm not sure how that form is better than his pre-prison run.

Struggled with Bruno? I think you must be thinking of their first fight. Tyson murdered him second time round - it was a sensational finish.

hazharrison wrote:Struggled with Bruno? I think you must be thinking of their first fight. Tyson murdered him second time round - it was a sensational finish.

Yep I think you're right.

Poor old Frank lost his bottle second time around..

I felt embarrassed for him.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Poor old Frank lost his bottle second time around..

I felt embarrassed for him.

He was as bad in the first fight lets be honest - clinging for dear life. He had that "moment" in the first which lasted all of 10 secs other than that he was atrocious and Tyson was going through the motions and still whacked him about.

Cheers, Rodders

Very true Rod...........It kind of masked a big slap didn't it ??......

Frank is the only fighter I've ever seen to have someone in trouble and then hold on himself..

Rodney wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Poor old Frank lost his bottle second time around..

I felt embarrassed for him.

He was as bad in the first fight lets be honest - clinging for dear life. He had that "moment" in the first which lasted all of 10 secs other than that he was atrocious and Tyson was going through the motions and still whacked him about.

Cheers, Rodders

Frank got away with murder in the first fight holding Mike with his left and rabbit punching with his right. He was slower and more musclebound second time and Tyson was almost as quick and vicious.

I thought Tyson got away with murder too...............Hit him flush when he was down....head and elbows in Frank's face all night.....Never warned once..

Steele was a disgrace...

hazharrison wrote:

Rodney wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Poor old Frank lost his bottle second time around..

I felt embarrassed for him.

He was as bad in the first fight lets be honest - clinging for dear life. He had that "moment" in the first which lasted all of 10 secs other than that he was atrocious and Tyson was going through the motions and still whacked him about.

Cheers, Rodders

Frank got away with murder in the first fight holding Mike with his left and rabbit punching with his right. He was slower and more musclebound second time and Tyson was almost as quick and vicious.

Didn't he attempt to go southpaw when Tyson finished him off ? Remember watching it LIVE thinking yes Iron Mike is back. Strange in Tyson's book he said he couldn't believe he beat Bruno 2nd time around as he had no confidence or was in shape.

Cheers, Rodders

He did as well. Bruno should have pulled a Luis Santana (against Norris).

Holyfield was also disgusting vs Mike. He landed as many headbutts as punches.

Rodney wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

Rodney wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Poor old Frank lost his bottle second time around..

I felt embarrassed for him.

He was as bad in the first fight lets be honest - clinging for dear life. He had that "moment" in the first which lasted all of 10 secs other than that he was atrocious and Tyson was going through the motions and still whacked him about.

Cheers, Rodders

Frank got away with murder in the first fight holding Mike with his left and rabbit punching with his right. He was slower and more musclebound second time and Tyson was almost as quick and vicious.

Didn't he attempt to go southpaw when Tyson finished him off  ? Remember watching it LIVE thinking yes Iron Mike is back. Strange in Tyson's book he said he couldn't believe he beat Bruno 2nd time around as he had no confidence or was in shape.

Cheers, Rodders

Yeah, he'd rolled that southpaw thing out against McCall but it didn't wash with Tyson.

Holy was smart against Tyson..................Tyson was always a dirty fighter.....

Can't moan when someone beats you in that department,,

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Holy was smart against Tyson..................Tyson was always a dirty fighter.....

Can't moan when someone beats you in that department,,

yeah agree, It was Tyson actually trying to do Holyfield with the butt when he got concussed in the first fight.

Cheers, Rodders

I dont see Doug Fischer in the top 20 tbf

I must watch it again, I am sure I seen Holyfield land more butts.

I know Tyson was hardly a saint,but even Lewis says Holyfield was a dirty c..t.

Also Evan Fields suggest he was dirty outside the ring as well.

hazharrison wrote:

AdamT wrote:Tyson did not look better than ever going in. He was just beating scared opponents.

Yes he was still strong and fast, but in no way did Tyson look his best. That is ludicrous.

That wasn't the view of the specialist press at the time. Dig out some Boxing Monthlys/Ring Mags and have a read.

Ron Borges, Boston Globe.  Only writer of any substance that picked Holyfield.  Every other writer picked Tyson.

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

hazharrison wrote:

AdamT wrote:Tyson did not look better than ever going in. He was just beating scared opponents.

Yes he was still strong and fast, but in no way did Tyson look his best. That is ludicrous.

That wasn't the view of the specialist press at the time. Dig out some Boxing Monthlys/Ring Mags and have a read.

Ron Borges, Boston Globe.  Only writer of any substance that picked Holyfield.  Ever other writer picked Tyson.

Reminds me of an interesting story about the Rumble in the Jungle Colin Hart was once kind enough to share.

After watching Bowe stop him.......Must admit I didn't give him a prayer.....