Slamming Sam and the Destabalising Effect

First topic message reminder :

This is not a WUM so please lets have some considered responses here as well as the usual dross.


The inclusion of Sam Burgess divided opinion in many pundits minds with perhaps Carling being among the more vociferous (I have always been a fan of Carling by the way and think that he more than any other person pulled England away from a pompous amateur era to that of a winning mentality) - Now there is no doubting this players ability as an individual although he has yet to prove himself in rugby union and a lot is being asked of him. My question I guess is, has his inclusion and undoubted aura destabilised what has been a pretty consistent ship over the past 3 years. Has it upset the dynamics of the team. He is a natural leader but that can create confusion, particularly in a game where he has not earned the right to be a leader. I've always been a fan of Burrell and of course its about combinations and familiarity in the 10, 12 and 13 axis. I'm just thinking that by opting for 1 potentially precious Jewel Lancaster and Co have discarded a number of Diamonds that have previously shone and perhaps could have shone if given the opportunity. It would have also maintained the equilibrium that appears to be lacking at present.

And what good is how the players did in a WC 12 years ago going to do the current squads? Therell be nice stories to be told to inspire them maybe but ultimately Ireland and Wales have shown improvements though injuries could hurt Wales whereas England seem to have regressed

is no board safe from a michaels fishing expedition... 'lesser nations'


I thought the d'arcy columns was excellent in many respects... well written and insightful. Especially in dissecting the tries. It's flaw for me was in some sensationalist terminology in a couple of paragraphs pertaining to burgess which have lead to the headlines. My guess is they were deliberately placed to that end.

In essence he blames burgess for the one time he went walkabout... he criticises barritt in the same move and for the wales try...  he criticises roberts and north for the england try. They are all experienced union players, but the thrust of the argument is how long it takes to learn the nuances of the position. Burgess didn't make many yards with ball in hand but neither did roberts the man he was there to stop. On saturday's showing, burgess has learnt the nuances to the level of roberts.... a guy who's played there all his life.

I think we all get where d'arcy's coming from. Burgess isn't the finished article and probably won't be playing centre again after the world cup. That's a not unreasonable opinion to hold but also not exactly a ground-breaking revelation in itself.

I recall BOD saying before the world cup that burgess would be fine with ball in hand and in defence, but wouldn't be natural at the ruck.

milkyboy wrote:is no board safe from a michaels fishing expedition... '.

I did read the rest of your post which was not only eloquent but informed. England are getting a kicking for a last quarter 'mare' against Wales. I am sure they'll beat Australia but a bit too peed to work out the connotations now.

My original point was England are on a pedestal. Sam Burgess is on a pedestal. Easy to kick down when they are a better side than Wales. At least dick Turpin wore a face mask.... In sporting terms Burgess has already blown anything his fellow squad and pretty much the rest of the home nation sides have done in their careers out of the water. I rate him in Union as well and I have a feeling he'll make an impact on Saturday. I am patriotic and the stats back me up.

No your original post was to go with a stereotype and be an arrogant Englishman, thankfully your the exception and not the rule on here

marty2086 wrote:No your original post was to go with a stereotype and be an arrogant Englishman, thankfully your the exception and not the rule on here

Re quote my original post petal. They are lesser nations. Argue the stats. Please, I would love to see it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The media didn't really build him up either.

You obviously don't see much of it. Almost every single article about England carries at least one picture of Sam Burgess. They are setting him up I just hope he continues to do well. I couldn't name anyone who has played less at centre and done so well against world class opposition. No one. The bloke is a legend in the making I hope.

There' s been some focus on him certainly but I haven't seen much building up of him, mostly criticism really. Hopefully if we see him again this WC he can cut out the positional mistakes and stop the easy breaks before moving onto 6 as previously discussed.

He is doing an absolutely fine job at Centre. If the luddites want him to play 6 at Bath (Just to keep Eastmond happy) then fine. Sam is such a world rugby talent he could play anywhere. Its just a shame to waste such a talent in an anonymous position like 6 when people also criticise his breakdown and lineout skills.

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The media didn't really build him up either.

You obviously don't see much of it. Almost every single article about England carries at least one picture of Sam Burgess. They are setting him up I just hope he continues to do well. I couldn't name anyone who has played less at centre and done so well against world class opposition. No one. The bloke is a legend in the making I hope.

There' s been some focus on him certainly but I haven't seen much building up of him, mostly criticism really. Hopefully if we see him again this WC he can cut out the positional mistakes and stop the easy breaks before moving onto 6 as previously discussed.

He is doing an absolutely fine job at Centre. If the luddites want him to play 6 at Bath (Just to keep Eastmond happy) then fine. Sam is such a world rugby talent he could play anywhere. Its just a shame to waste such a talent in an anonymous position like 6 when people also criticise his breakdown and lineout skills.

Spot on. Anyone without an agenda knows Wales broke through when he went off

seanmichaels wrote:

marty2086 wrote:No your original post was to go with a stereotype and be an arrogant Englishman, thankfully your the exception and not the rule on here

Re quote my original post petal. They are lesser nations. Argue the stats. Please, I would love to see it.

The stats say these days England are the inferior nation, winning one off matches and no trophies to show for it, how do you like those stats darling

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:The media didn't really build him up either.

You obviously don't see much of it. Almost every single article about England carries at least one picture of Sam Burgess. They are setting him up I just hope he continues to do well. I couldn't name anyone who has played less at centre and done so well against world class opposition. No one. The bloke is a legend in the making I hope.

There' s been some focus on him certainly but I haven't seen much building up of him, mostly criticism really. Hopefully if we see him again this WC he can cut out the positional mistakes and stop the easy breaks before moving onto 6 as previously discussed.

He is doing an absolutely fine job at Centre. If the luddites want him to play 6 at Bath (Just to keep Eastmond happy) then fine. Sam is such a world rugby talent he could play anywhere. Its just a shame to waste such a talent in an anonymous position like 6 when people also criticise his breakdown and lineout skills.

I think he's excelled att he breakdown at 6 and it highlights his strengths and gives the pack a strong carrying 6 some have been calling for. Since he has neither a really strong passing or kicking game and no real pace it gives him the best chance to shine. He would find himself falling behind Devoto if he stayed at 12 for Bath so make sense despite this wall to wall media coverage all saying hes an amazing centre.

"I think he's excelled att he breakdown at 6 and it highlights his strengths and gives the pack a strong carrying 6 some have been calling for. Since he has neither a really strong passing or kicking game and no real pace it gives him the best chance to shine. He would find himself falling behind Devoto if he stayed at 12 for Bath so make sense despite this wall to wall media coverage all saying hes an amazing centre."

Sorry don't agree. Being taken off against Wales is widely accepted as being a key reason why the England mid field didn't function in the last 15 minutes. His passing is world class far better than Barritt for example. He is blatantly fast enough for any world team Centre. To criticise him for his kicking is clutching at straws quite honestly. If he fell behind Devoto then I'm sorry but Bath would be stupid. Devoto can't get near England even at 6. Sam could play anywhere. No, I'm afraid your anti-Burgess personality is starting to wear very thin. Perhaps you haven't noticed but England have selected him yet again and SL almost always picks him out after a game for his excellent contributions. I think the hole you have dug for yourself on this is starting to get so deep that you won't be able to get out of it. Far better if you just admit that you are wrong and move on. You'll feel much better when its all off your shoulders.

Like an 8 year old writing about his favourite superhero.

Hes dropped by the way. Are you really English?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hes dropped by the way. Are you really English?

I even gave you the credibility that you would understand that its a match squad that plays. Even you should expect to see Sam take to the field on Saturday at some point. Don't forget he not only keeps Devoto out of the England squad but Twelvetrees, Burrell, Slade and a whole lot more as I'm sure you would understand. As I say it would be much better for you if you gave up this anti-Burgess thing you have. You are just about the last remaining "Burgess is a 6" poster on here. If you haven't noticed most other English posters that said that have gone away and kept quiet. You ought to take a leaf out of their book.

Burgess would be a better 6...

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Like an 8 year old writing about his favourite superhero.

Well its quite understandable why the Irish don't like him. Their full strength side couldn't deal with him. So your comment doesn't really hold any water does it?

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hes dropped by the way. Are you really English?

I even gave you the credibility that you would understand that its a match squad that plays. Even you should expect to see Sam take to the field on Saturday at some point. Don't forget he not only keeps Devoto out of the England squad but Twelvetrees, Burrell, Slade and a whole lot more as I'm sure you would understand. As I say it would be much better for you if you gave up this anti-Burgess thing you have. You are just about the last remaining "Burgess is a 6" poster on here. If you haven't noticed most other English posters that said that have gone away and kept quiet. You ought to take a leaf out of their book.

Hmmm. You're quite strange.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hes dropped by the way. Are you really English?

I even gave you the credibility that you would understand that its a match squad that plays. Even you should expect to see Sam take to the field on Saturday at some point. Don't forget he not only keeps Devoto out of the England squad but Twelvetrees, Burrell, Slade and a whole lot more as I'm sure you would understand. As I say it would be much better for you if you gave up this anti-Burgess thing you have. You are just about the last remaining "Burgess is a 6" poster on here. If you haven't noticed most other English posters that said that have gone away and kept quiet. You ought to take a leaf out of their book.

Hmmm. You're quite strange.

Burgess has been doing just fine at Centre playing for England in RWC 2015 keeping many other Centres out of the side. What is it that you can't see? Are you blind? Pot and black come to mind regarding your last comment. As I say it would be much better for you if you acknowledged what you've actually got before your very own eyes and move on.

Against Wales I saw a limited centre pairing who have made their tackles mostly made some positional errors poor choices with a bad kick and looked pedestrian in attack.

The original point of this was that the media were building Burgess up as a centre which hasn't happened. At least after the wc once sam is a quality 6 you may be able to move on.

"The original point of this was that the media were building Burgess up as a centre which hasn't happened. At least after the wc once sam is a quality 6 you may be able to move on."

If the Bath coach continues to lose a world class talent in the scrum. Someone who can blast holes in a defence, offload and pass very well, tackle people like Roberts to a standstill, and be unstoppable from 10 metres out then I'm sorry he is a numpty. If he is made to play 6 then it smacks of keeping others like Eastmond and Devoto sweet because sure as hell they can't play 6 can they? They can't because they can't hold a candle to Sam Burgess. If that happened I'd hope Sam moved to another club under RFU guidance where he could play centre regularly. Are you a relative of the Bath Coach or something? Is that what this is all about?

Last point from me seeing as you're igorng the point that the media as a majoriy didn't nd haven't praised him as a good centre. Even Lancaster thinks hes a 6 but needs to be a good lineout option and is just filling in for Tuilagi.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Last point from me seeing as you're igorng the point that the media as a majoriy didn't nd haven't praised him as a good centre. Even Lancaster thinks hes a 6 but needs to be a good lineout option and is just filling in for Tuilagi.

You are two weeks behind my friend. There is plenty in the media accepting and supporting what Sam Burgess has done for England with so little game time. Open up your mind and just imagine how good he could be after say 10 games? Sorry but your last point is just laughable, "filling in", filling bliddy in! As I said many times Burgess could play anywhere. To suggest SL and his coaches have not put him there on merit in front of Devoto, Twelvetrees, Burrell and Slade in a RWC just to keep the spot warm for Manu in the 6Ns would be hugely funny if it wasn't so stupid. Manu plays 13 for a start. Manu may never play for England again. Open up your eyes for goodness sake.

englandglory4ever wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Like an 8 year old writing about his favourite superhero.

Well its quite understandable why the Irish don't like him. Their full strength side couldn't deal with him. So your comment doesn't really hold any water does it?

When couldn't they deal with him? In the 20mins he played prior to the RWC? He really shone then

The only destabalising effect is here on 606. Previously sane and knowledgeable English fans are swept up in the nonsense that Sam is a centre. As a Bath fan I KNOW he'll make a good backrow. He'll never be more than a fill in centre.

offload wrote:The only destabalising effect is here on 606.  Previously sane and knowledgeable English fans are swept up in the nonsense that Sam is a centre.  As a Bath fan I KNOW he'll make a good backrow.  He'll never be more than a fill in centre.  

Bath fan. Says it all. Disregard.

englandglory4ever wrote:

offload wrote:The only destabalising effect is here on 606.  Previously sane and knowledgeable English fans are swept up in the nonsense that Sam is a centre.  As a Bath fan I KNOW he'll make a good backrow.  He'll never be more than a fill in centre.  

Bath fan. Says it all. Disregard.

You have a serious love fest going on for Sam - he should be warned and you should seek help.

offload wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:

offload wrote:The only destabalising effect is here on 606.  Previously sane and knowledgeable English fans are swept up in the nonsense that Sam is a centre.  As a Bath fan I KNOW he'll make a good backrow.  He'll never be more than a fill in centre.  

Bath fan. Says it all. Disregard.

You have a serious love fest going on for Sam - he should be warned and you should seek help.

When all else fails and you lose the argument its always best to start slinging personal insults I find. Pretty similar to you.

englandglory4ever wrote:

offload wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:

offload wrote:The only destabalising effect is here on 606.  Previously sane and knowledgeable English fans are swept up in the nonsense that Sam is a centre.  As a Bath fan I KNOW he'll make a good backrow.  He'll never be more than a fill in centre.  

Bath fan. Says it all. Disregard.

You have a serious love fest going on for Sam - he should be warned and you should seek help.

When all else fails and you lose the argument its always best to start slinging personal insults I find. Pretty similar to you.

I haven't been arguing and I haven't lost one. You seem to argue with everyone and anyone, enjoy stirring for the sake of it, and lately, can't shut up about your obsession with Mr. Burgess. Just an observation.....

offload wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:

offload wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:

offload wrote:The only destabalising effect is here on 606.  Previously sane and knowledgeable English fans are swept up in the nonsense that Sam is a centre.  As a Bath fan I KNOW he'll make a good backrow.  He'll never be more than a fill in centre.  

Bath fan. Says it all. Disregard.

You have a serious love fest going on for Sam - he should be warned and you should seek help.

When all else fails and you lose the argument its always best to start slinging personal insults I find. Pretty similar to you.

I haven't been arguing and I haven't lost one. You seem to argue with everyone and anyone, enjoy stirring for the sake of it, and lately, can't shut up about your obsession with Mr. Burgess. Just an observation.....

If you don't know the difference between 'arguing' and 'making an argument' then I don't think we have much else to say to each other. Its pointless if you don't understand what's being said.

englandglory4ever wrote:

offload wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:

offload wrote:The only destabalising effect is here on 606.  Previously sane and knowledgeable English fans are swept up in the nonsense that Sam is a centre.  As a Bath fan I KNOW he'll make a good backrow.  He'll never be more than a fill in centre.  

Bath fan. Says it all. Disregard.

You have a serious love fest going on for Sam - he should be warned and you should seek help.

When all else fails and you lose the argument its always best to start slinging personal insults I find. Pretty similar to you.

So are you saying that offload was right and this lead to your personal insult?

Because I believe Burgess is a good player offload says I should seek help. He dislikes it when someone puts a legitimate case. He then gets upset when his views are challenged even though he goes against paid coaching team of professionals that have been watching Burgess day in and day out for months. It's a bit rich that I'm accused of being out on a limb about Burgess when clearly he has been selected and praised by the coaching staff and many others. Who's wrong here?

marty2086 wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:

offload wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:

offload wrote:The only destabalising effect is here on 606.  Previously sane and knowledgeable English fans are swept up in the nonsense that Sam is a centre.  As a Bath fan I KNOW he'll make a good backrow.  He'll never be more than a fill in centre.  

Bath fan. Says it all. Disregard.

You have a serious love fest going on for Sam - he should be warned and you should seek help.

When all else fails and you lose the argument its always best to start slinging personal insults I find. Pretty similar to you.

So are you saying that offload was right and this lead to your personal insult?

I see sarcasm is lost on some people.

What does Tuilagi being a 13 have to do with it?

No 7&1/2 wrote:What does Tuilagi being a 13 have to do with it?

Who's Tuilagi? Don't they play for Samoa?

The Tuilagi you mentioned earlier in this thread. What does he being a 13 have to do with anything?

No 7&1/2 wrote:The Tuilagi you mentioned earlier in this thread. What does he being a 13 have to do with anything?

I agree. What does he have to do with RWC? Manu is not due to play again until December. He may breakdown again. He may never play rugby again. So no, Manu has absolutely nothing to do with it. Move on.

What does Tuilagi being a 13 have to do with Lancaster looking to replace his physicality with Burgess?

englandglory4ever wrote:Because I believe Burgess is a good player offload says I should seek help. He dislikes it when someone puts a legitimate case. He then gets upset when his views are challenged even though he goes against paid coaching team of professionals that have . It's a bit rich that I'm accused of being out on a limb about Burgess when clearly he has been selected and praised by the coaching staff and many others. Who's wrong here?

What's wrong here is that the same professional coaches you refer to who have been watching Burgess day in and day out for months chose to take him off and leave Barritt on at the most crucial part of the game. Now, its either those professional coaches who have dropped a clanger with that decision or they saw something that others didn't. Either way someone is wrong here. The real questions are who and why? and that remains a bit of a mystery. Why did they take their saviour off with 15-20 minutes to go? They either back him or they don't, same again this weekend, the saviour is on the bench. To me that's almost an admission that they've got it wrong. Just my view mate so happy to disagree.

Watching the Wales vs Fiji game you could see the amount of times the Fijians let Wales through in the first half and Wales probably would have wrapped up the try bonus if they took their chances.

I mention this because in the Wales vs England game, whatever you feel about a centre partnership of Burgess-Barritt they stopped Welsh attacks quite comfortably, certainly for the 1st 40 in conjunction with the rest of the England side.

Okay they didn't offer much in attack but their job was to stop Roberts and co in their tracks which they did. It didn't matter as much as long as England won the game which they were doing till the Welsh try.

The Welsh try came when Burgess was off the field. At the time there was a lack of pace in at 9,12 and 13. I have said it time and again a Ford-Farrell-Barritt combo is one of the most stupid combos that an international coach could utilise.

It's unrealistic to expect Burgess to be playing like a slower version of SBW. Burgess did okay.

Apart from the clear break in the 1st half yes.

Well said beshocked. Clearly England's plan was to stop Wales scoring tries and win it with penalties. The plan went wrong badly. Because taking Sam off lead to a Wales try and England gave far too many penalties away themselves. They had a very limited defensive plan that got unravelled.

Tuilagi 13 E4E? What was your point?

Exactly englandglory4ever.

Does anyone know who were the guilty players for the penalties given away?

England's high penalty count is also why England weren't further ahead at half time.

Conceding 28 points in a match is not good enough.

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hes dropped by the way. Are you really English?

I even gave you the credibility that you would understand that its a match squad that plays. Even you should expect to see Sam take to the field on Saturday at some point. Don't forget he not only keeps Devoto out of the England squad but Twelvetrees, Burrell, Slade and a whole lot more as I'm sure you would understand. As I say it would be much better for you if you gave up this anti-Burgess thing you have. You are just about the last remaining "Burgess is a 6" poster on here. If you haven't noticed most other English posters that said that have gone away and kept quiet. You ought to take a leaf out of their book.

No he isn't.

If Burgess has impressed so much, why is he not starting?

The realist amongst us can see that he isn't a 12 and won't have a future there.

Sorry don't agree. Being taken off against Wales is widely accepted as being a key reason why the England mid field didn't function in the last 15 minutes.

- No it isn't.

His passing is world class far better than Barritt for example.

- It's so far from world class I suspect that is a joke.

He is blatantly fast enough for any world team Centre.

-  He blatantly isn't quick enough, are you for real? He one of the slowest backs I've ever seen turn out for England.

To criticise him for his kicking is clutching at straws quite honestly.

Kicking is a key skill in the backs, especially for a 12. He has a terrible kicking game.

If he fell behind Devoto then I'm sorry but Bath would be stupid. Devoto can't get near England even at 6.

Devoto doesn't play 6. Devoto will be playing 12 for the most part next season for Bath, Burgess will be playing in the backrow.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tuilagi 13 E4E? What was your point?

Oh do move on for goodness sake. I don't know what you are trying to prove here. Manu is not playing. He may never play. Move on.

Poolly there is so much wrong with that post I don't know where to begin. Except to say criticism of Burgess for not having a kicking game really is clutching at straws. When was the last time you saw barritt kick successfully?

englandglory4ever wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tuilagi 13 E4E? What was your point?

Oh do move on for goodness sake. I don't know what you are trying to prove here. Manu is not playing. He may never play. Move on.

You felt it important enough to make the point he's a 13 in response to the fact Lancaster has replaced his physicality through Burgess. If you no longer find it relevant fair enough.

beshocked wrote:Exactly englandglory4ever.

Does anyone know who were the guilty players for the penalties given away?

England's high penalty count is also why England weren't further ahead at half time.

Conceding 28 points in a match is not good enough.

I think I'm right in saying that at least 7 of the starting pack gave penalties. I think in Cole's case it was 2. Not good as some were unnecessary.

Beshocked and englandglory4ever

What a pairing

As an aside, I also agree that Burgess will be an excellent 6, but at this moment in time he's doing a decent job at centre. Especially against Roberts because he did the same job that Joe Worsley did many moons ago (i.e. a flankers job)

England, I'll take that as a win

Barritt is far from a good kicker but he's got a decent boot on him and can do grubbers to a decent standard. Burgess is a truly awful kicker as displayed against Wales. You surely can't think that kicking is a skill not required at centre?

englandglory4ever wrote:Poolly there is so much wrong with that post I don't know where to begin. Except to say criticism of Burgess for not having a kicking game really is clutching at straws. When was the last time you saw barritt kick successfully?

Oh yeah, good point. I must have missed the reams and reams of English posters exclaiming their delight that Barritt plays at 12 for the last few years, and not at all hoping that Twelvetrees/Burrell/Eastmond/Tuilagi/Slade/Burgess/Stephenson/Hill/Devoto might take the shirt off him