Another mass shooting at a college in America

First topic message reminder :

Umpqua Community College was locked down Thursday morning after reports of a shooting on campus.

The Douglas County Sheriff's Office said the 911 center received reports of an active shooter around 10:38 a.m.

An Oregon State Police spokesman told CNN there were 10 confirmed deaths and more than 20 wounded. Hospitals as far away as Eugene were preparing to take patients.

The shooter was reportedly detained.

The FBI was sending agents from several offices around the state to Roseburg, and the ATF said it was sending additional units from Portland and a K-9 team to assist in the investigation.

Fire District No. 2 in Douglas County tweeted a warning for people to stay away from the area.

According to the Douglas County Sheriff's Office, students, faculty and staff were being transported to the Douglas County Fairgrounds.

Rowley wrote:I always think this stat about the number of Americans who don't have passports is a bit misleading. If you lived in the states why would you need to go anywhere else on holiday? There is pretty much everything there, there is the weather, beaches, museums, amusement parks, wildlife, the great outdoors. Whatever floats your boat you can find somewhere that will fulfills your need. Appreciate it is not as simple as that, but people travel for things they can't get at home, ergo there is less need to travel when you can get it at home.

History? No. New cultures? No. Different languages? No. Markedly different food? No.

And I say that as someone who loves going to America, have done two 3 month stints living/working there and probably accumulated another 3-4 months worth of holiday/vacation time there.


Plus, if you needed a passport to leave the state, figures would probably still be worryingly low, so I don't think a huge amount of what you say plays out in reality. I've probably seen more of America than a lot of Yanks.

Americans don't get much holiday do they? That could have something to do with it.

Yeh, it's pretty brutal over there, 10-12 days on average paid leave.

A lot is topped up with public holidays, but they're only good for long weekends so not enough to travel broadly.

Disagree re the food bit Toppy, there's a fair bit of food variety in the US IMO.

Back on topic

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/09/ben-carson-claims-jewish-people-might-have-stopped-holocaust-if-they-had-guns

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Disagree re the food bit Toppy, there's a fair bit of food variety in the US IMO.

There's variations but not major differences and completely unusual or alternative things. It's all very 'American' - whether 'Tex-Mex' or SoCal versions of Mexican food, seaford of New England (still the best clam chowder I've ever eaten), the creole of the southern states or Cowboy cuisine of the mid-west.

Compared to an equivalent geographical area, that's nothing like the difference you'd get in Europe, then chuck in the wildly different cuisines of other countries across the world like China, India, Japan, SE Asia, Middle East/North African, West African etc etc.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Disagree re the food bit Toppy, there's a fair bit of food variety in the US IMO.

Back on topic

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/09/ben-carson-claims-jewish-people-might-have-stopped-holocaust-if-they-had-guns

It's scary when it's highly intelligent/educated folk saying these things, not just dumb rednecks.......

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Disagree re the food bit Toppy, there's a fair bit of food variety in the US IMO.

There's variations but not major differences and completely unusual or alternative things.  It's all very 'American' - whether 'Tex-Mex' or SoCal versions of Mexican food, seaford of New England (still the best clam chowder I've ever eaten), the creole of the southern states or Cowboy cuisine of the mid-west.

Compared to an equivalent geographical area, that's nothing like the difference you'd get in Europe, then chuck in the wildly different cuisines of other countries across the world like China, India, Japan, SE Asia, Middle East/North African, West African etc etc.

Have you ever been to China Toppy? The variation in food there is simply amazing (most of it very very good too, though I don't agree with chicken feet - all tough cartilage, no flavour).

Agreed there's nothing like that in the States, but I still think there's decent variety, you name quite a few different foods in your post.

I guess my point would be, the differences between them are much smaller than the differences in cuisine in other areas in the world.

TexMax/SoCal mex versus creole is a much smaller difference than french versus lebanese, for example. New England versus Mid-West is more similar than Spanish versus Scandinavian. Etc...

That's fair enough I think.

All this talk of food is making me hungry

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Disagree re the food bit Toppy, there's a fair bit of food variety in the US IMO.

Back on topic

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/09/ben-carson-claims-jewish-people-might-have-stopped-holocaust-if-they-had-guns

It's scary when it's highly intelligent/educated folk saying these things, not just dumb rednecks.......

His views on evolution combined with about 99% of everything else he says suggests that he's not educated at all and that the Americans hand out medical degrees to anyone that can mark an X on an application form. Either that or he's in the process of performing surgery on his own brain and hasn't put it back together again.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Disagree re the food bit Toppy, there's a fair bit of food variety in the US IMO.

Back on topic

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/09/ben-carson-claims-jewish-people-might-have-stopped-holocaust-if-they-had-guns

Lot of A-holes in the World, that's for sure.

There's been another college shooting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34487997

One dead, three injured, Americans still not giving a sh!t......

Silly thing to write...

I know Americans obviously care, but it does come across after a while like they don't care as much as we think they should. Then again, we apparently tolerate killings as long as the perpetrator is one of those pesky Muslim fellas so I'm not sure where things stand anymore.

Anyone with a heart cares...Especially those of us with families. ..

48 percent of Americans are anti guns...

All this generalisation guff...I guess you think we all loved Bush and supported Iraq.

Pro gun people are saddened at these incidents they just don't think changing the laws are the answer..

By all means hate America but easy on the guff...

I expect better from you If not from TopHat24.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Anyone with a heart cares...Especially those of us with families. ..

48 percent of Americans are anti guns...

All this generalisation guff...I guess you think we all loved Bush and supported Iraq.

Pro gun people are saddened at these incidents they just don't think changing the laws are the answer..

By all means hate America but easy on the guff...

I expect better from you If not from TopHat24.

It wasnt an attack, Truss, but generalisations will come as whilst you are a huge and varied nation, you are one nation, and your policies on it are what represents America's view on it, if you get my thinking. I know not all supported Bush, I know for every one of those 48% there are likely to be breakdowns of just how anti-guns they are too. But you have to generalise to some extent when talking on this scale.

I actually quite like America, sadly the loudest voices sometimes are the Fox News idiots.

TopHat24/7 wrote:There's been another college shooting:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34487997

One dead, three injured, Americans still not giving a sh!t......

And another one in Texas.

As tragic as these situations are and I don't like guns myself I do understand some of the pro guns lobbies points.

I get that some law abiding citizens who own firearms in the Us and see all these atrocities taking place all over the country  would be reluctant to hand over their weapons and leave themselves and family in a more vulnerable position.  

And when you see the likes of Anders Brevik, the Charlie Hebdo Killers, and the like committing massacres in countries with tough gun laws, it does make you think no matter how tough the law the most determined lunatics will find a way to bypass them.

Even in the Uk with our tough gun laws just a brief google check shows there were around 540 firearms offences in the west midlands between 2013/14 with an overall figure of 7,714 offences with 29 fatalities nationwide(read into them what you will but I always think most government statistics are usually at minimum but thats just me), these may cover things like replicas and handguns etc, but to me this just goes to show that they may not make national headlines on a regular basis, but proves gun crime still happens on a regular basis and only takes one psychopath to cause carnage at some point,(which of course hopefully doesn't happen.)

One question I do have (and really appreciate the answer as I haven't been able to find any info) is how many Uk gun massacres were there before Hungerford 88?  wiki links only give info of bombings before this, not gun crime.  It would be interesting to know considering the stricter laws coming into place during this time.

Volcanicash wrote:
One question I do have (and really appreciate the answer as I haven't been able to find any info) is how many Uk gun massacres were there before Hungerford 88?  wiki links only give info of bombings before this, not gun crime.  It would be interesting to know considering the stricter laws coming into place during this time.

I would say its worth looking at Australian figures on that, as they relate quite well.

Volcanicash wrote:...And when you see the likes of Anders Brevik, the Charlie Hebdo Killers, and the like committing massacres in countries with tough gun laws...

Not sure they're great examples to support mass civilian gun ownership really.
Brevik lives in a country with high gun ownership - he's a psycho and he had legal access to high power weapons. Bad combination. Kind of like the U.S. mass killers really. Could he have done that in the U.K.? Maybe the bomb, but I doubt he'd have got his hands on the firearms and murdered lots of campers in the the British countryside.
The Hebdo shooters were presumably using smuggled assault rifles at the end of a large scale operation that supplied them. Hardly your average members of the public and I seriously doubt any normal member of the French public can go buy an assault rifle in a supermarket in Paris.

For each situation where an armed member of the public might be able to foil a crime, how many little Johnnys accidentally shoot themselves with daddy's pistol? How many little Billys kill little Davey because Davey won't let Billy play ball? How many psycho Earls murder their ex-school mates? How many wasted Waynes murder their wives/children? How many wired Willys kill the shop keeper all for just a few dollars and a pack of fags? Etc ad infinitum....

@Dolphin Ziggler Thank you for the reply I will look into them; but if anyone knows about gun massacre Uk stats pre 1988 Hungerford please share the info as it seems its hard to find.

@Navyblue shorts, thanks for the reply, I didn't make those examples in support of mass civilian gun owner ship(I'm sure more informed people than myself could do this perhaps?) but to highlight reasons why Us citizens may have their attitudes towards keeping them.

You make some good points, I have no Idea and definitely think anyone holding firearms should keep them away from kids, is there any stats around specifically relating to those kind of accidents?

The one point I will make is most of these killings that hit the news are always places where firearms are banned, eg, colleges, schools, churches, etc, and have at times thought why don't they employ armed security personnel for a trial period(purely because of the law as it currently stands I'm thinking this, so why not at least try) and see if that reduces these attacks?  If that reduces the frequency of these incidents which must be the aim no matter what the method then that is great news, if they don't then there would be more pressure on the pro guns lobby and the government to disarm.  Its tough questions with no easy answers.

VA - there are more mass shootings in the US this year (3 or more people shot, not necessarily killed) than there are days in the year so far. Surely they can't all be colleges, schools, churches etc.?

@Juliusmarx - No of course not, buts its worth noting in Uk 2013/2014 there were reportedly 7,714 fire arms offences, (with only 29 fatalities thankfully and who knows how many unreported cases take place) which equates to more than 3 offences a day, in spite of tough gun laws.

Gangs killing gangs are fine by me..

It is not difficult to get a small hand gun in the UK, but it does take time which at least reduces the possibility of someone acting impulsively in a fit of rage. For me the worrying aspect of a pro gun culture is the disensitization and familiarity to being around guns. I would be shocked, worried and concerned if i knew my mate had a gun. In a pro gun culture i wouldn't bat an eyelid. Criminalising guns at least clarifies (for the rest of society) the intentions people have when they acquire a gun

Average of 32,000 deaths in America with guns............

The usual break up.....

60% suicide............
3 % Accidental........
17% Gang related....

Leaving 20% ................Which is 8,000 out of a population of 318 million.....

Take out the gangs..............

1 in 40,000 people in USA get hit by homicide.....

It's pretty safe to assume that most people lives aren't affected so they don't feel the need to give up their weapons..

Pretty convenient set up of made up statistics there.....

LivinginItaly wrote:It is not difficult to get a small hand gun in the UK, but it does take time which at least reduces the possibility of someone acting impulsively in a fit of rage. For me the worrying aspect of a pro gun culture is the disensitization and familiarity to being around guns. I would be shocked, worried and concerned if i knew my mate had a gun. In a pro gun culture i wouldn't bat an eyelid. Criminalising guns at least clarifies (for the rest of society) the intentions people have when they acquire a gun

Interesting take....Good post.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Pretty convenient set up of made up statistics there.....

Rather than being dismissive I would suggest you post a reasoned and reasonable response

Notice to Truss and Toppy.

Guys, I don't want either of you to leave the site as despite your at times controversial views, you both contribute to the debate on here. It has though got to a point where neither of you can post without aggravating the other so the decision is thus.
Change your settings so that you foe each other and therefore you no longer see each other's posts, or you leave the site.
I'd prefer you choose the first option but you decide not to I will have no hesitation to enforce the latter one.

Hero wrote:Notice to Truss and Toppy.

Guys, I don't want either of you to leave the site as despite your at times controversial views, you both contribute to the debate on here. It has though got to a point where neither of you can post without aggravating the other so the decision is thus.
Change your settings so that you foe each other and therefore you no longer see each other's posts, or you leave the site.
I'd prefer you choose the first option but you decide not to I will have no hesitation to enforce the latter one.

Is this a joke ???

All day everyday the guy stalks me and abuses me.....and i'm getting threatened....

Laughable...

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Rowley wrote:I always think this stat about the number of Americans who don't have passports is a bit misleading. If you lived in the states why would you need to go anywhere else on holiday? There is pretty much everything there, there is the weather, beaches, museums, amusement parks, wildlife, the great outdoors. Whatever floats your boat you can find somewhere that will fulfills your need. Appreciate it is not as simple as that, but people travel for things they can't get at home, ergo there is less need to travel when you can get it at home.

History? No. New cultures? No. Different languages? No. Markedly different food? No.

You know that bit in my original post where I said appreciate it is not as simple as that?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Hero wrote:Notice to Truss and Toppy.

Guys, I don't want either of you to leave the site as despite your at times controversial views, you both contribute to the debate on here. It has though got to a point where neither of you can post without aggravating the other so the decision is thus.
Change your settings so that you foe each other and therefore you no longer see each other's posts, or you leave the site.
I'd prefer you choose the first option but you decide not to I will have no hesitation to enforce the latter one.

Is this a joke ???

All day everyday the guy stalks me and abuses me.....and i'm getting threatened....

Laughable...

And by foeing him you therefore don't have to interact with him. Simples.

Hero wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Hero wrote:Notice to Truss and Toppy.

Guys, I don't want either of you to leave the site as despite your at times controversial views, you both contribute to the debate on here. It has though got to a point where neither of you can post without aggravating the other so the decision is thus.
Change your settings so that you foe each other and therefore you no longer see each other's posts, or you leave the site.
I'd prefer you choose the first option but you decide not to I will have no hesitation to enforce the latter one.

Is this a joke ???

All day everyday the guy stalks me and abuses me.....and i'm getting threatened....

Laughable...

And by foeing him you therefore don't have to interact with him. Simples.

Why should I have to foe him.......

I don't start anything.....

You want to read some of these threads......

You want to kick me off do it......Not the end of the world.......

Fair enough, bye

Ouch. Permanent ban?

Unless he emails in and states he's willing to foe Toppy as requested then yes. It's not an unreasonable request so the balls in his court.

Hero wrote:Unless he emails in and states he's willing to foe Toppy as requested then yes. It's not an unreasonable request so the balls in his court.

Mrs Truss will be happy to hear this.

This is what happens when I have a few days off Shah. The off topic section goes into mltdown, the cc turns into a second rate camp bake off episode. Adam ought to pay me enough to run this place full time. It quite clearly falls to pieces in my absence.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Pretty convenient set up of made up statistics there.....

Rather than being dismissive I would suggest you post a reasoned and reasonable response

OK. There have been 5,000,000 Yanks killed domestically by guns in the last 5 years......

89% of all homicides are gun crimes......

The fact that you can't even get over 50% of the population to support slightly tighter gun control, let alone taking the drastics steps otehr countries (UK, Oz) have taken suggests 90% of the country doesn't really give a sh*t.....

Rowley wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Rowley wrote:I always think this stat about the number of Americans who don't have passports is a bit misleading. If you lived in the states why would you need to go anywhere else on holiday? There is pretty much everything there, there is the weather, beaches, museums, amusement parks, wildlife, the great outdoors. Whatever floats your boat you can find somewhere that will fulfills your need. Appreciate it is not as simple as that, but people travel for things they can't get at home, ergo there is less need to travel when you can get it at home.

History? No. New cultures? No. Different languages? No. Markedly different food? No.

You know that bit in my original post where I said appreciate it is not as simple as that?

Read that. My point was that it was a fallacious deduction. And saying "it's not this simple, but...." and then using that as the reason why your reasoning is apparently beyond reproach seems a little nonesensical.

Hero wrote:Notice to Truss and Toppy.

Guys, I don't want either of you to leave the site as despite your at times controversial views, you both contribute to the debate on here. It has though got to a point where neither of you can post without aggravating the other so the decision is thus.
Change your settings so that you foe each other and therefore you no longer see each other's posts, or you leave the site.
I'd prefer you choose the first option but you decide not to I will have no hesitation to enforce the latter one.

Noted. Done.

At what point did I say my reasoning was beyond reproach. The point I was making was when you live in a country without almost limitless leisure activities there is less inducement or need to travel overseas. The stat is always trotted out as a clear indication that America and Americans are insulated. I was merely suggesting things might not be that straight forward.

You've created a wonderful little 'Samantha Brick' argument though. Essentially a giant enough caveat that you can say your point is always valid when really it's pretty weak.

Yes, America has huge leisure activity opportunities, and a lot of truly beautiful areas that are great to visit, but that's only 2 things and hardly balances with what the whole rest of the world offers. Therefore I wouldn't consider it much of a defence to the lack of passport ownership in the US which is, IMO, a testament to US arrogance and insular nature.

Oz is very similar in terms of scale and offer but they're some of the biggest travellers in the world.

TopHat24/7 wrote:You've created a wonderful little 'Samantha Brick' argument though. Essentially a giant enough caveat that you can say your point is always valid when really it's pretty weak.

Yes, America has huge leisure activity opportunities, and a lot of truly beautiful areas that are great to visit, but that's only 2 things and hardly balances with what the whole rest of the world offers.  Therefore I wouldn't consider it much of a defence to the lack of passport ownership in the US which is, IMO, a testament to US arrogance and insular nature.

Oz is very similar in terms of scale and offer but they're some of the biggest travellers in the world.

They're trying to escape all the things that are trying to kill them.

There's also very little in the middle of Australia apart from eventual death and you could sample all you'd need to of entire country in about 8 weeks.

You could arguably write off large swathes of the US as well. 8 weeks would allow you to cover most things.

superflyweight wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:You've created a wonderful little 'Samantha Brick' argument though. Essentially a giant enough caveat that you can say your point is always valid when really it's pretty weak.

Yes, America has huge leisure activity opportunities, and a lot of truly beautiful areas that are great to visit, but that's only 2 things and hardly balances with what the whole rest of the world offers.  Therefore I wouldn't consider it much of a defence to the lack of passport ownership in the US which is, IMO, a testament to US arrogance and insular nature.

Oz is very similar in terms of scale and offer but they're some of the biggest travellers in the world.

They're trying to escape all the things that are trying to kill them.  

There's also very little in the middle of Australia apart from eventual death and you could sample all you'd need to of entire country in about 8 weeks.

True to a certain extent. Plenty of extreme adventure here but not on the same scale as the US which has a much more varied climate and grander geography. I also think that many of us do go on hereditary pilgrimages or visit relatives on a greater per capita basis than the US. Being a younger nation the connections don't seem so distant. As family ties with Europe continue... many more new ones are made in Asia especially.

Heard some statistic the other day which caught me by surprise.
A certain council area (pop. 80,000 about 15km2) has over 7,000 gun owners! That's one for every 11 people.
It also has the highest death rate/casualties (8/39) from shootings in Oz. (This is one of the 42 council areas... the worst.)
The interesting thing, however, is the fact that around 75% of the populace was born overseas... English was not the most spoken language (3rd after Arabic and Mandarin)... and unemployment rates were much higher than average for Sydney/the rest of Oz.

But why would Americans want to travel the way in which we do around Europe. Anywhere within a 3 mile fly time is crime ridden and dangerous. Admittedly Canada is amazing but that is my personal opinion, don't expect others to agree.

Media reporting 12 dead in another shooting in Cali

It never ends.