The Double Movement

I'm wanting a little change of pace today since the bickering and WUMing on here is getting a little carried away.

A lot has been made about the inconstancy and errors being made by referees in a few of the games, not to mention inconsistent citing. Tuilagi vs Japan, Wood vs Wales, Hooper vs England and Farrell and Burgess vs. Austalia.

In addition I would have handed out a match ban to Didier Hoggba for his atrocious dive when the Beast brushed past in Scotland's game vs. South Africa him but that is another matter.

What is niggling me is the double movement. Either I don't understand the law or it is just being ignored by the ref and TMO alike.

The France vs. Romania game didn't have too many things to write home about and was pretty much an error strewn bore fest. However briefly debated at the time on these boards was the double movement rule :

https://www.606v2.com/t60673-france-vs-romania-23-september?highlight=france

However the question of double movement wasn't really pulled apart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhXs956UwJ8

The incident in question is in this vid ^
2 mins 20 seconds into this video and you'll see the try in question.

Straight from the rule book:

15.4 a) A tackled player must not lie on, over, or near the ball to prevent opponents from gaining possession of it, and must try to make the ball available immediately so that play can continue.
(b) A tackled player must immediately pass the ball or release it. That player must also get up or move away from it at once.
(c) A tackled player may release the ball by putting it on the ground in any direction, provided this is done immediately.
(d) A tackled player may release the ball by pushing it along the ground in any direction except forward, provided this is done immediately.
(g) If players are tackled near the goal-line, these players may immediately reach out and ground the ball on or over the goal-line to score a try or make a touch down.

So lets apply rule 15.4(g) into this video, try or no try...

Personally I'd give that as double movement as he seemed to try to place it, hesitate and then place it. But it's the same as playing the ball from the bottom of a ruck. If your team mates are standing over you after you've been tackled, stopping the opposition getting at you (as seen in a ruck) and you throw the ball up to the acting scrum half it's either a) obstruction as it's not a ruck or b) handling the ball in the ruck. However the refs have decided that an interpretation that facilitates faster rugby is to ignore this. Similar for placing the ball. What 'immediately' means is loose and the key thing is to show identical (or at least similar) cases that were treated differently. Otherwise, it's just the latest way of seeing it.

What pi s s ed me off the most was Romania's winning try yesterday. I only needed to see it once. Straight away I said TRY. But the TMO took about five or six goes at it, and the ref had it on the big screen.

It was a clear try, I could see it, everybody else in the room could see it, yet we were looking at it for over five minutes from every angle possible. It was a stone wall decision, yet the officials made a friggin mini epic about it. If I could see it was a try, then surely the officials could see it was a try. Why all the drama's ?

I'm with you on that Dowlais - It just seemed obvious but maybe we underestimate our sharp vision and experience. What I did notice were lots of "minor" decisions not being picked up. Yesterday 1 team clearly knocked the ball on and in to touch but they just ignored the knock on and gave the line out. Double movement is less obvious IMO and it will remain a controversial issue. Why not just get rid of it and let the double movement count?

RR

Either that's a double movement or the Law is badly written or ignored (a not unique feature of the RU Laws...). Unfortunately the ball carrier fell rather awkwardly and landed on top of the ball (which he did not have a good grip on), and he made one immediate movement and grounded the ball a little short of the line - that was his one movement permitted by the Law as written. Lifting and moving the ball for a second time is by definition the double movement referred to, and should have been penalised effectively for not releasing after a tackle.

I played more RL that Union, and there the double movement law is very simple - you aren't allowed to actively move the ball once grounded, so must either hold the ball up and reach for the line or slide over with momentum. In league, even the first movement would have been penalised.

dummy_half wrote:RR

Either that's a double movement or the Law is badly written or ignored (a not unique feature of the RU Laws...). Unfortunately the ball carrier fell rather awkwardly and landed on top of the ball (which he did not have a good grip on), and he made one immediate movement and grounded the ball a little short of the line - that was his one movement permitted by the Law as written. Lifting and moving the ball for a second time is by definition the double movement referred to, and should have been penalised effectively for not releasing after a tackle.

I played more RL that Union, and there the double movement law is very simple - you aren't allowed to actively move the ball once grounded, so must either hold the ball up and reach for the line or slide over with momentum. In league, even the first movement would have been penalised.

I like that rule. That should be adopted into union.

The try in question that we are debating, when would the tackled player be pinged for playing the ball on the ground?

How come we rarely get these incidents in our normal domestic games yet in a RWC everyone wants the rules to be clarified or changed?

TightHEAD wrote:How come we rarely get these incidents in our normal domestic games yet in a RWC everyone wants the rules to be clarified or changed?

To improve the game? I'm neither Romanian or French so have no axe to grind in this particular case.

Diving into the tackle gets on my jubblies too. We've seen plenty of examples of this, some cases even leading to the tackle get penalised yet no penalty or citing for the tacklee.

I've seen this penalized plenty of times in club games.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:How come we rarely get these incidents in our normal domestic games yet in a RWC everyone wants the rules to be clarified or changed?

To improve the game? I'm neither Romanian or French so have no axe to grind in this particular case.

But the game is fine as it is, I can't remember watching a normal Aviva Prem game thinking to myself oh I wish they would clarify that rule or I wish they would use the TMO more.

Surprised that try was given as it does seem to be a double grounding, let alone movement.
He falls, gets a hold of the ball properly , places it short then places it again.

At least he got a crafty wee smack in the face from the Romanian for his troubles.

TightHEAD wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:How come we rarely get these incidents in our normal domestic games yet in a RWC everyone wants the rules to be clarified or changed?

To improve the game? I'm neither Romanian or French so have no axe to grind in this particular case.

But the game is fine as it is, I can't remember watching a normal Aviva Prem game thinking to myself oh I wish they would clarify that rule or I wish they would use the TMO more.

I'm not sure you fully understand the purpose of a rugby debating forum.

It shows how subjective it all is - I thought that fine
1) the ref asks "any reason not to award the try" which means the TMO has to be certain the try should not be awarded ie see proof of something wrong
2) IMO he is down and places the ball over the line - a bit fumbling but the ball never stops going forward between the "second" and "third" movements so they are only one movement ( edit - the "second movement" being him placing the ball as allowed)

However if the other question had been asked - "try yes or no" when the tmo has to adjudicate from scratch rather than find a reason to overturn the ref then it might have been no try.

I do not know if it wqas the Romanian one, but one try was awarded after a lot of TMI'ing that not so long ago would have been a double movement. the issue was that the ball was in the right hand, and will be brought down short - so the left hand goes to ground un is used to move the body forward to ensure the stretch with the ball reaches the line. this happens after the player has hit the ground so the body is stopped and then is propelled forward again.

TMO and ref deemed otherwise - but certainly once upon a time (ie when I still reffed) examples like that were used to show what a double movement is at Society Training days.

My favourite there is 15.4b) - the tackler always gets pinged for not rolling away, but very very rarely do you see the tackled player done for not rolling away once they've placed the ball