Who should be next England coach

First topic message reminder :

I think most of us are agreed that Stuart Lancaster should go as England coach - but who do you want to see get the job?  I think that Stuart Lancaster has proved that you need a coach who has a proven winning track record at the top level of club or international rugby.

Lets not turn this topic into a debate about which players should be in, or Stuart Lancaster's failings, those are valid issues for other topics.  Just who you think it should be and why.

I don't think any English coach has a record of success in the European Rugby Champions/Heineken Cup, or any track record of coaching abroad.  So I would go for an overseas coach and I think we should break the bank for the best 'available' coach, which for me is Wayne Smith.  Assuming Steve Hansen does not want to step down, would Smith be satisfied as being a number 2 for another 4 years?

Simple and short - Who and Why.

Joining this discussion in a serious way...
England are such a big and famous team that they probably won't go for someone who isn't English.

Rob Baxter of Exeter might be an option, he's done brilliantly with an unfashionable club, he's got the best out of what he's had to work with. Just what you need as an international coach.

Richard Cotteril - Maybe England have been to nice, maybe having him as coach will make England nasty again.

John Wells - worked his way up over the years, though Newcastle haven't pulled up any trees.

Jim Mallinder - probably the most deserving and just signed a new contract after Lancaster got his extension.

Stephen Diamond - I like him but will not be everyones cup of tea to be honest.

Dean Ryan - brought a nice group of young players on at Gloucester but didnt realy get the results.

Others:
Richard Hill
Dean Richards

Cockerill, Ryan and Wells don't stand a chance, similar with Richards.

On a bout a foreign coach.

Cona o She? maybe?

I thought it was rumoured that Nick Mallet is being sounded out about the position...?

He holds an English passport.

Mallet doesn't hold an English passport

Well he was born in England. But place of birth means nothing.

majesticimperialman wrote:On a bout a foreign coach.

Cona o She? maybe?

He stands a good chance. Knows the english game, has had success and worked within the RFU structures.

Well it seems that the coaches have more authority than Lancaster...and they're influence is negative.

If that's the case and Lancaster has indeed good ideas then how about Lancaster stays. get rid of Farrell etc, we get some new better coaches - Gustard (Defence etc) who are not so influential on the selections and just get on and do their jobs...COACHING!!

Would England look to have Edwards in their set up now?

Gwlad wrote:Would England look to have Edwards in their set up now?

I doubt it

Well not if Lancaster stays and he is incapable of controlling strong personalities....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:Would England look to have Edwards in their set up now?

I doubt it

Edwards was involved with england before he started working for Wales but wanted the head job. That would still be the case.

Would that not just be like for like replacing Farrell with Edwards?

The less RL influences the better for me

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The less RL influences the better for me

makes sense, i mean he's only been doing defense for wales for 8 years

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well it seems that the coaches have more authority than Lancaster...and they're influence is negative.

I don't want to take any of these stories at face value, given the record our press has for less than accurate reporting.

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The less RL influences the better for me

makes sense, i mean he's only been doing defense for wales for 8 years

I don't see your point.

Edwards is with Wales and I imagine he has a contract. I don't understand why the Welsh are so interested in the future of English rugby and why they feel the need to argue our preferences.

Id go for Gustard.

But it all hangs on what the decision on Lancaster is. If he stays then he MUST change the whole coaches. Freshen the whole thing...and make the final decisions.

But he must also sort out the errors that have plagued his reign.

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well it seems that the coaches have more authority than Lancaster...and they're influence is negative.

I don't want to take any of these stories at face value, given the record our press has for less than accurate reporting.

Cant argue with that mate...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Gwlad wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The less RL influences the better for me

makes sense, i mean he's only been doing defense for wales for 8 years

I don't see your point.

Edwards is with Wales and I imagine he has a contract. I don't understand why the Welsh are so interested in the future of English rugby and why they feel the need to argue our preferences.

So parochial, you dont own English rugby. And your dismissal of Edwards is a classic example of English arrogance even in the face of the most damning evidence.

But that attitude is endemic, delusional...and you think that English rugby has all the answers from within which clearly it doesn't

Think you are the only ones who can comment on the circus? Perhaps if you looked outside that naive perspective you'd find some answers to questions you have been asking since after RWC 2011

Thats it Pooly, you don't like what you read so report it

Sure you aren't Mike Catt!

I've not reported anything fella.

It's got nothing to do with arrogance, I'd just personally prefer other options. Why do you feel offended that some of us have opinions? Edwards has done a top job for Wales, good luck to him.

You sound like a bloke who's upset with me because I don't fancy your girlfriend. There's plenty of other good looking women out there who don't have a fella.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Id go for Gustard.

But it all hangs on what the decision on Lancaster is. If he stays then he MUST change the whole coaches. Freshen the whole thing...and make the final decisions.

But he must also sort out the errors that have plagued his reign.

Mate, do you really believe Lancaster understands his errors?  I don't thnk so.  And this is the rub.
To me he is a planner type but cannot get out of his planned box.  Frankly I do not think he is capable of change.

No Doc I don't. And that's the worry...because I really don't have any high expectations of any other options who could replace him.

There you go. If we see it, then it shouldn't be too difficult for the RFU types to see it either. Planning is good, but adapting to change is critical.

I believe we do have coaches in the Premierhsip who could do fine. We see coaches adapt to changing situations all the time. I think Mallinder would do very well, but I would prefer him to stay at Saints. Baxter perhaps? Even Cocker,s who has no real shot, would be fine as head coach (though not as a DOR). And each news conference Cockers would be entertaining.

I'm just not sure on anyone Doc... no one just stands out for me and says "Yes get him in!! "

I don't know a huge amount about this David Rennie in NZ that keeps having his name thrown about.

What about Dai Young at Wasps. He has been turning them into a very useful outfit.
Steve Diamond?

We're just naming anyone who fits the bill....without seeing if they actually do

Having just watched Ireland v France I hope our next coach can try and get some emotion and passion into our team, that was an amazing performance from Ireland.

TightHEAD wrote:Having just watched Ireland v France I hope our next coach can try and get some emotion and passion into our team, that was an amazing performance from Ireland.

Me too....so true....they BELIEVE !

Our boys get media training to kill the emotion and passion, that has to change and we need to start believing and stop playing rugby based on stats and percentages!

Some interesting comments from Henry, http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/34499072

GeordieFalcon wrote:I'm just not sure on anyone Doc... no one just stands out for me and says "Yes get him in!! "

I don't know a huge amount about this David Rennie in NZ that keeps having his name thrown about.

What about Dai Young at Wasps. He has been turning them into a very useful outfit.
Steve Diamond?

We're just naming anyone who fits the bill....without seeing if they actually do

I apologise, I am going to copy the Dave Rennie article from Wikipedia.  I never use Wikipedia, but I am being lazy.  I had heard of him as coach of Waikato in Super Rugby.  Seems he is a fairly successful coach in NZ.  Nice, but I am sure we have similar in the Premiership.  No international experience.

Wiki-bloody-pedia wrote: Dave Rennie, a former teacher and pub-owner is the head coach of the Chiefs rugby union club in the Super Rugby competition. His first season as head coach began in the 2012 season in which he led the Chiefs to their first Super Rugby title.
Rennie was previously the coach of the Manawatu in the ITM Cup from 2005 to 2011. Under Rennie the Turbos were Championship Runner-up in the 2011 ITM Cup. He coached the Wellington between 2000 and 2002 and In 2000, as his first year as the head coach, led the Wellington Lions to their first NPC title since 1986 (14 years). Rennie was also a member of that 1986 team.  Rennie also coached various Upper Hutt club level teams, the same club at which he started his rugby and coaching career.
Rennie was coach of the New Zealand national under-20 rugby union team, under whom the team won three consecutive World titles from 2008 to 2010.[4] In 2012 Rennie became the first first-year Super Rugby coach to win a Super Rugby title when he guided the Chiefs to a 37-6 win over the Sharks. Unfortunately, during the match, Rennie's house was robbed and valuables were stolen, as had similarly occurred to Chiefs player Sonny Bill Williams several weeks earlier.
He coached the Chiefs to their second straight Super Rugby title in the 2013 season, beating the Brumbies by 27-22.  

Dai Young would likely be fine. Steve Diamond, not so much, methinks.

Rennie has no international experience but has run a Chiefs side which won two Super XV titles in a row. He also coaches a brand of rugby which could play to Englands strengths.

We keep talking about how our current crop of players are suited to a more open style of rugby but that we need to maintain our set piece and tight work to give a platform for it. At the Chiefs Rennie has developed tight 5 forwards such as Brodie Retallick and Symons who have the ability to do the tight work needed of them whilst also having the skills to shine around the park as top international players now need to be able to. A balance that England really need to find at current.

Most importantly however would be the possible influence of Rennie on bringing Wayne Smith, his lieutenant at Waikato, with him. Smith is one of the best brains in rugby with an uncanny knack for getting sides playing intelligent and positive rugby which could aid this group of players immeasurably.

Personally I can't see it happening though. From what I have heard Rennie is a loyal character who has a contract through to 2017. Combine this with Tom Coventry - his forwards coach at Waikato last season - moving to LI, Wayne Smith - his deputy last season - reportedly wanting a year out from rugby after the RWC and Liam Messam - his captain last season - heading to Japan. I can't imagine he would want to add to that turnover by leaving himself.

Plus I couldn't tell you jot about his personal life and whether he has a family etc that he wouldn't want to uproot or spend masses of time away from.

I'm not holding my breath basically!

Dave Rennie is a terrific coach, incidentally, but I don't think it will be him. England needs a safe bet and that's going to be someone with considerable international experience.

Rob Andrew is just about holding onto his job now and he needs to be able to say he is willing to pay for the best.

I wonder how many coaches would be put off by having to work under the RFU dinosaurs? They certainly won't help attract candidates!

I am veering towards the idea of a foreign coach, I wonder if someone with no emotional attatchment would be useful?

Lancaster as manager to keep the knowledge base and continuity, with Rennie, Smith and Dai Young as head coach, backs and forwards coaches respectively would be great.

A guy who's been in the England set up for 4 years now, two quality SH technical coaches and a Prem coach with experience here and coaching abroad too.

Won't happen though.

We'll either keep the same team or get Mallet or some other dinosaur.

There's absolutely no way Lancaster would stay with other coaches, not through any sense of loyalty to Rowntree etc. but because those coaches were perfect for him to manage I.e. not big enough names in their own right to threaten to take his position. I'd be amazed if he ever seriously wanted Wayne Smith under him.

I would genuinely take the 'dinosaur' Mallett over Lancaster. Why in earth would Smith, Rennie or Young work under him, they'd learn nothing

Woodward is saying first there should be a Director that would make all the decisions himself, without interference from above, about things like whether or not Lancaster stays, who to choose as a replacement and to be in total control of the report into the WC disappointment.

Woodward then goes on to say that the Director shouldn't be allowed interview the players though, as that would prove divisive..

So another layer of governance proposed to take over complete control of the coaching and admin of the International side, but not to be given full control of the coaching and admin side either.....

I've said it before but I think England just suffers from too many layers of governance where everyone has to mark everyone else's report card before a step can be taken.  That's how it seems anyway from the outside. Too many specialist sub-office suits meddling in the mix.  
The first route to success might be to downsize the operation to mimic the skeleton crew operations that would often run in some Nations because of financial restraints.  Be a big Union but run it at International team level anyway like a smaller Union might do.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I've not reported anything fella.

It's got nothing to do with arrogance, I'd just personally prefer other options. Why do you feel offended that some of us have opinions? Edwards has done a top job for Wales, good luck to him.

You sound like a bloke who's upset with me because I don't fancy your girlfriend. There's plenty of other good looking women out there who don't have a fella.

Keep your dress on Pooly

Not offended in the least, it makes total sense based on England's last 2 choices as Head Coach that they wouldn't choose a proven performer, lets face it, you can do 10 months as a Union player and get picked for a RWC because of your aura, Edwards would never have allowed that to happen

Geech?

Dress?

You keep Edwards Gwlad, he's a good will gesture to the principality to keep them happy.

Edwards is a very good defence coach, but his record as Head Coach at Wasps when Gats moved on was woeful.

They really need to move away from the obsession with English coaches.

Knowing the RFU they will probably promote Farrell and get him to bring in a few league guys to improve the set piece

World Rugby needs to bring in the same rules for coaches as players! But in the meantime any nationality.

SL remaining anywhere near the team would worry the hell out of me. Not just because of his selections – although these have been poor at times. But because I don’t think he really understands where he’s taking the team. And also because I don’t think the team buys into his vision (whatever that is). He’s often talked about a journey – but where is this journey taking England?

Instead of taking England’s traditional strengths: the set-piece, the power and the sheer bloody mindedness, and building on them with some attacking flair – he seems to have abandoned them. Has our scrum and LO ever been so mediocre? He’s talked about a mobile pack but to what end? Surely a mobile pack has to go somewhere, yet our breakdown is unconvincing. Our pack can run around as fast as the next one, but doesn’t seem to know what to do when it gets there. And where has all the famous English dog gone? We went out of our RWC with barely a whimper. Remember what grit alone can achieve (RWC 2007 final).

On top of this he’s taken far too long to sort out the back line. And then, when it only recently started to look threatening, he changed the centre combo at precisely the wrong moment: a RWC, and changed the whole balance. This showed an alarming mix of muddled thinking and lack of bottle.

And what rugby nous has he brought? When is the last time England did something clever, unusual (that didn't involve dwarves), or anything that took the opposition by surprise? Even our restarts are predictable.

And if all this needs topping…it has been: the 1st team in history to go out of its own RWC at the pool stage. Failure by any standard.

I rest my case m’lud. SL is a decent, hard-working and conscientious man…but a rugby buffoon. We can do so much better.

No 7&1/2 wrote:World Rugby needs to bring in the same rules for coaches as players! But in the meantime any nationality.

Whew!!! Glad we beat that law. Joe is an Irish citizen now..... That was close

Geech, White and Mallet? Together Get them lads off the dole queue (and get one of them off our TVs!).

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Mallet doesn't hold an English passport

Did not know there was such thing as an English passport? Where can I get one please.

SecretFly wrote:Geech, White and Mallet? Together  Get them lads off the dole queue (and get one of them off our TVs!).

Jake white is one of these guys that while is always looking for the next job is never unemployed!

.....the proverbial dole queue that was, whocare. I felt it was apparent enough not to mention it.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:SL remaining anywhere near the team would worry the hell out of me. Not just because of his selections – although these have been poor at times. But because I don’t think he really understands where he’s taking the team. And also because I don’t think the team buys into his vision (whatever that is). He’s often talked about a journey – but where is this journey taking England?

Instead of taking England’s traditional strengths: the set-piece, the power and the sheer bloody mindedness, and building on them with some attacking flair – he seems to have abandoned them. Has our scrum and LO ever been so mediocre? He’s talked about a mobile pack but to what end? Surely a mobile pack has to go somewhere, yet our breakdown is unconvincing. Our pack can run around as fast as the next one, but doesn’t seem to know what to do when it gets there. And where has all the famous English dog gone? We went out of our RWC with barely a whimper. Remember what grit alone can achieve (RWC 2007 final).

On top of this he’s taken far too long to sort out the back line. And then, when it only recently started to look threatening, he changed the centre combo at precisely the wrong moment: a RWC, and changed the whole balance. This showed an alarming mix of muddled thinking and lack of bottle.

And what rugby nous has he brought? When is the last time England did something clever, unusual (that didn't involve dwarves), or anything that took the opposition by surprise? Even our restarts are predictable.

And if all this needs topping…it has been: the 1st team in history to go out of its own RWC at the pool stage. Failure by any standard.

I rest my case m’lud. SL is a decent, hard-working and conscientious man…but a rugby buffoon. We can do so much better.

Well in the 6N he put out a team that was able to create mayhem and score tries against everyone, with the huge exception of the Irish. Defense was more of an issue.

At this RWC, instead of trying to tweak that team while trying to build a back up plan B (defensive) we just seemed to switch how we played to something much more negative