Who should be next England coach

by nlpnlp Fri 9 Oct - 13:01

First topic message reminder :

I think most of us are agreed that Stuart Lancaster should go as England coach - but who do you want to see get the job? I think that Stuart Lancaster has proved that you need a coach who has a proven winning track record at the top level of club or international rugby.

Lets not turn this topic into a debate about which players should be in, or Stuart Lancaster's failings, those are valid issues for other topics. Just who you think it should be and why.

I don't think any English coach has a record of success in the European Rugby Champions/Heineken Cup, or any track record of coaching abroad. So I would go for an overseas coach and I think we should break the bank for the best 'available' coach, which for me is Wayne Smith. Assuming Steve Hansen does not want to step down, would Smith be satisfied as being a number 2 for another 4 years?

Simple and short - Who and Why.

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Oct - 11:48

LondonTiger wrote:Not sure what plan SCW ever had. england only started to develop a style after Robinson and Ashton banned him from the training ground.

Didn't Woodward once say that winning the World cup was 40% great players and 60% coaching and environment...?

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Oct - 11:50

Though I think when they asked Martin Johnson what he thought about Woodwards comments Johnson replied that he thought it was 90% great players and 10% coaching and environment, and that that was being kind to the coaches

by **LondonTiger** Wed 14 Oct - 11:56

maestegmafia wrote:Though I think when they asked Martin Johnson what he thought about Woodwards comments Johnson replied that he thought it was 90% great players and 10% coaching and environment, and that that was being kind to the coaches

Well, for all their public bonhomie, they were never friends.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 14 Oct - 11:58

Poor coaching can ruin a team, even one packed with great players.

Good coaching can improve a team and make an average one competitive - but it cannot turn average players into world beaters.

by Barney McGrew did it Wed 14 Oct - 11:59

Whether you're a good coach or a great one, the one thing you have to do is get the best out of the players you've selected. That's another fail for SL then, particularly at the RWC. The case against him keeps building.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 14 Oct - 12:03

Do you think Schmidt has got the best out of his players in the past 2 6Ns? I just ask as he's regarded as a good coach and to be fair it's been a cats whisker between them and Wales this year. Are England's players superior in your eyes to Irelands?

by Geordie Wed 14 Oct - 12:04

If he stays he needs to stop with the "culture" and "respect" sh$t. Your team has to have a bit nasty and arrogance to win.

Johnson and Dalaglio were both respectful men...but by god they could bend the rules if they needed to, to win! The situation in Ireland with the red carpets. Johnson was called all the names for that and he didn't give a jot.....he simply would not be beaten or back down.

Even many of the 2007 final team had that sheer bloody mindedness - very much like the Wales team this WC...they will fight to the death...and then keep going.

How many of the current set up have that will and desire....Mike Brown is the only one I can think of and possibly Launchbury....

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Oct - 12:15

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Whether you're a good coach or a great one, the one thing you have to do is get the best out of the players you've selected. That's another fail for SL then, particularly at the RWC. The case against him keeps building.

I disagree, I think Lancaster has done a great job getting the best out of his players, he just doesn't have the players needed to compete in the top eight of world rugby and occaissional excellent results over those teams has glossed over the fact that England have had a poor pack and average ability halfbacks.

Selection and persistence with the wrong players has been Lancasters greatest fault.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 14 Oct - 12:16

Poor wum maes.

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Oct - 12:20

GeordieFalcon wrote:If he stays he needs to stop with the "culture" and "respect" sh$t. Your team has to have a bit nasty and arrogance to win.

Johnson and Dalaglio were both respectful men...but by god they could bend the rules if they needed to, to win! The situation in Ireland with the red carpets. Johnson was called all the names for that and he didn't give a jot.....he simply would not be beaten or back down.

Even many of the 2007 final team had that sheer bloody mindedness - very much like the Wales team this WC...they will fight to the death...and then keep going.

How many of the current set up have that will and desire....Mike Brown is the only one I can think of and possibly Launchbury....

I really do not think you should ever use that as a positive example.

Martin Johnson brought the whole game into disrepute that day and the RFU have done nothing to apologise for it.

Johnson was a complete embarrassment to the rugby world, it was cringe worthy to see it happen.

You would never see Paul O'Connell do that to the Queen.

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Oct - 12:22

No 7&1/2 wrote:Poor wum maes.

Typical of you to attack the poster rather than to consider the opinion and reply with some intellect.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 14 Oct - 12:23

Poor wum.

by BamBam Wed 14 Oct - 12:23

Even if POC did, so bloody what. Its only a bit of mud

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 14 Oct - 12:23

Here we go again.......

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Oct - 12:25

No 7&1/2 wrote:Poor wum.

Reply to the post, stop name calling.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 14 Oct - 12:26

Poor post then, in an attempt to wum that was poor!

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 14 Oct - 12:26

he just doesn't have the players needed to compete in the top eight of world rugby

Take your wumming elsewhere, it's really boring

by TJ Wed 14 Oct - 12:27

No 7&1/2 wrote:Do you think Schmidt has got the best out of his players in the past 2 6Ns? I just ask as he's regarded as a good coach and to be fair it's been a cats whisker between them and Wales this year. Are England's players superior in your eyes to Irelands?

As a scots Fan I would say the average quality of Englands players is slightly better. Ireland play better than the sum of their parts, England worse. So I would say Schmidt is a better coach

by screamingaddabs Wed 14 Oct - 12:27

Shall we throw the hand of Back in there as well. That'll make everyone argue about things from long ago too!

How about the using the wrong ball incident in Wal vs Ire?

Or maybe any time McCaw was on the pitch for NZ?

Or perhaps we could get back to the point at hand -> Who should coach England. The answer is clear, England should be coached by the following team:

Me - Manager
GeordieFalcon - Forwards Coach
No 7&1/2 - Backs coach
LondonTiger - Defence
Cyril - PR man

Easy. We could completely screw it up so that whomever came next looked amazeballs.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 14 Oct - 12:28

Against Teams in the current Top 8 since SL took over:

NZ - P42, W37, D2, L3
SA - P34, W20, D2, L12
Aus - P43, W23, D2, L18
Eng - P34, W16, D1, L17
Ire - P27, W12, D2, L13
Wal - P30, W12, L18
Fra - P29, W6, D2, L21

Englands record stacks up perfectly fine against Top 8 opposition when compared with other NH teams.

so if not a WUM, merely an ignorant and ill informed post.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 14 Oct - 12:29

TJ wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Do you think Schmidt has got the best out of his players in the past 2 6Ns? I just ask as he's regarded as a good coach and to be fair it's been a cats whisker between them and Wales this year. Are England's players superior in your eyes to Irelands?

As a scots Fan I would say the average quality of Englands players is slightly better. Ireland play better than the sum of their parts, England worse. So I would say Schmidt is a better coach

And I'd say at the moment a little of the opposite. If you were pulling together a combined side I think most would go for more Ireland players but England as a whole are close to them in quality.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 14 Oct - 12:30

I'm bringing back Tindall to partner Barritt then screaming. Too much pressure!

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Oct - 12:30

BamBam wrote:Even if POC did, so bloody what. Its only a bit of mud

President McAleese And the queen are dignitaries for god sake, they represent their nations. When you are the guest in someone's country you should act with respect as they do when they come to yours.

by screamingaddabs Wed 14 Oct - 12:32

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'm bringing back Tindall to partner Barritt then screaming. Too much pressure!

As manger I overrule this decision. You cannot leave out a defensive operator as good as Noon. You're lucky to keep your place on the staff.

Now, someone get big Phil Vickery on the phone immediately!!!!

by BamBam Wed 14 Oct - 12:32

maestegmafia wrote:
BamBam wrote:Even if POC did, so bloody what. Its only a bit of mud

President McAleese And the queen are dignitaries for god sake, they represent their nations. When you are the guest in someone's country you should act with respect as they do when they come to yours.

Zzzzzzzzzzzz

by **LondonTiger** Wed 14 Oct - 12:32

Healy, Meh, Meh
Henderson, Launchbury
POM, SOB, BillyV
Murray, Sexton
May, Henshaw, Joseph, Watson
Brown

So 7 Irish and 6 English from me - with two places to be filled by antopodeans with a UKish or Irish granny

by **LondonTiger** Wed 14 Oct - 12:33

BamBam wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
BamBam wrote:Even if POC did, so bloody what. Its only a bit of mud

President McAleese And the queen are dignitaries for god sake, they represent their nations. When you are the guest in someone's country you should act with respect as they do when they come to yours.

Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Bearing in mind England stood on the side they were told to (the side they would be defending, then the Irish came out and refused to take their side - who is really to blame.

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Oct - 12:34

LondonTiger wrote:Against Teams in the current Top 8 since SL took over:

NZ - P42, W37, D2, L3
SA - P34, W20, D2, L12
Aus - P43, W23, D2, L18
Eng - P34, W16, D1, L17
Ire - P27, W12, D2, L13
Wal - P30, W12, L18
Fra - P29, W6, D2, L21

Englands record stacks up perfectly fine against Top 8 opposition when compared with other NH teams.

so if not a WUM, merely an ignorant and ill informed post.

My point is more that now, crunch time, the defining moment in the four year cycle you are not in the last eight of the teams in the RWC. Who cares what you won lost or drew before if you can't perform when their is a title to win, same goes for the six nations, always losing to one team never getting the title or Grandslam.

Now is that the coaches fault?

by **LondonTiger** Wed 14 Oct - 12:36

So having stated that the players are not talented enough to beat teams in the top 8 in the world you backtrack.

clap

by Cyril Wed 14 Oct - 12:38

maestegmafia wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:If he stays he needs to stop with the "culture" and "respect" sh$t. Your team has to have a bit nasty and arrogance to win.

Johnson and Dalaglio were both respectful men...but by god they could bend the rules if they needed to, to win! The situation in Ireland with the red carpets. Johnson was called all the names for that and he didn't give a jot.....he simply would not be beaten or back down.

Even many of the 2007 final team had that sheer bloody mindedness - very much like the Wales team this WC...they will fight to the death...and then keep going.

How many of the current set up have that will and desire....Mike Brown is the only one I can think of and possibly Launchbury....

I really do not think you should ever use that as a positive example.

Martin Johnson brought the whole game into disrepute that day and the RFU have done nothing to apologise for it.

Johnson was a complete embarrassment to the rugby world, it was cringe worthy to see it happen.

You would never see Paul O'Connell do that to the Queen.

Ronan O'Gara stood there with his hands in his pockets when her met her. Send him to The Tower!

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Oct - 12:38

LondonTiger wrote:
BamBam wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
BamBam wrote:Even if POC did, so bloody what. Its only a bit of mud

President McAleese And the queen are dignitaries for god sake, they represent their nations. When you are the guest in someone's country you should act with respect as they do when they come to yours.

Zzzzzzzzzzzz

Bearing in mind England stood on the side they were told to (the side they would be defending, then the Irish came out and refused to take their side - who is really to blame.

England were asked to move before meeting the President of Ireland. Every team in the history of the game would have moved.

It was embarrassing to see such behaviour it is embarrassing to see people championing such rudeness as an example of something they consider to be a value in our sport.

Even Martin Johnson seems to have realised how it was a mistake as when interviewed on it he certainly didn't make it sound like a performance to demonstrate will and status but more an innocent mistake that was irrevocable at the time.

by **Biltong** Wed 14 Oct - 12:38

majesticimperialman wrote:
Biltong wrote:I haven't commented on this thread yet, but I do have a question

Is the problem really the coaching?

Is it possibly more a case of selection shortcomings?

Is talent identification and skills development an issue?

Is it a game plan issue?

Biltong

I think it could be a bit of all what you said.

I also think it could be a bit of naivety of certain players, thinking they are better player than they are. Keep chopping and changing centre, flyhalf's. why oh why did George Ford get dropped for Owen Farrell? why did Sam Burgess get in the team/squad in front of Luther Burrell, Henry Slade?

With regards to Chris Robshaw going for the line out rather than the kick at goal, was that talked about be fore the game, or was it down to the choice of the captain or the goal kicker?

How much of an in fluence do the other coaches have on team selection for the game that is coming up?

We are told that Stuart Lancaster as the final say on team, player selection? is this the truth or just media spin?

I think we ( ENGLAND) need to go back to the drawing board.

Can the RFU simply say it is no use crying over spilt milk, the WC for England is over lets concentrate on the 6ns? And keep the same coaching set up?

OR, will the RFU have too be seen to be doing somthing and as they say (heads must roll) and the coach/es coaching team must go.

Yep, if those are the issues then England needs to go back to the drawing board, do you think it is a possibility that England Rugby has lost its identity and core values because they are perhaps trying to emulate the manner in which NZ plays the game?

Reason why I am asking is the selections that has been made, the industrious running and all that seems at odds with one another, players have certain core skills and now you need a new set of players to employ a new way of playing the game?

England rugby should firstly decide what is their core strengths and how they want to play the game in a modern way without having to resort to tactics they don't have the necessary players for.

Once you decide that, selections are made to suit that style. Skills can be taught, but you need a vision of what you want to do.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 14 Oct - 12:40

Biltong wrote:
England rugby should firstly decide what is their core strengths and how they want to play the game in a modern way without having to resort to tactics they don't have the necessary players for.

Once you decide that, selections are made to suit that style.

Skills can be taught, but you need a vision of what you want to do.

I fully agree with all but that last sentence. Skills shave to be learnt when young not once in the national setup.

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Oct - 12:42

LondonTiger wrote:So having stated that the players are not talented enough to beat teams in the top 8 in the world you backtrack.

Are England beating teams in the top eight?

You just lost to two and are out of our own RWC.

Not sure what you are applauding? England? Lancaster?

I am amazed that my opinion is so extravagant to you? Surely you would agree that England's elimination at the pool stages is unacceptable

by BamBam Wed 14 Oct - 12:44

I think everyone agrees it was unacceptable

Personally, I'm just not a fan of snide comments and high and mightyness from a Welsh fan who takes every opportunity to stick the boot in

by Geordie Wed 14 Oct - 12:44

maestegmafia wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:If he stays he needs to stop with the "culture" and "respect" sh$t. Your team has to have a bit nasty and arrogance to win.

Johnson and Dalaglio were both respectful men...but by god they could bend the rules if they needed to, to win! The situation in Ireland with the red carpets. Johnson was called all the names for that and he didn't give a jot.....he simply would not be beaten or back down.

Even many of the 2007 final team had that sheer bloody mindedness - very much like the Wales team this WC...they will fight to the death...and then keep going.

How many of the current set up have that will and desire....Mike Brown is the only one I can think of and possibly Launchbury....

I really do not think you should ever use that as a positive example.

Martin Johnson brought the whole game into disrepute that day and the RFU have done nothing to apologise for it.

Johnson was a complete embarrassment to the rugby world, it was cringe worthy to see it happen.

You would never see Paul O'Connell do that to the Queen.

It wasn't necessarily a positive example...its an example where they could be ruthless and not back down.

We'll agree to disagree about him being an embarrassment.

The game is littered with successful team having that mentality. Englands.....simply don't.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 14 Oct - 12:50

BamBam wrote:I think everyone agrees it was unacceptable

Personally, I'm just not a fan of snide comments and high and mightyness from a Welsh fan who takes every opportunity to stick the boot in

Hard to accept being knocked out, but it wasagainst two strong sides.

What I do find unacceptable is as you say the snide assertions, specifically that SL did a good job but the players are not good enough to compete against Top8 sides. the stats show clearly that they can and do compete at least as well as other NH teams - but lost on thos occasion.

by bigndumb Wed 14 Oct - 12:50

Mr mafia might be a wum, I dunno, but his points about our half back selections and I suddenly toothless pack seem valid to me. Part of me longs for the days when we could mangle all comers up front. Athletic, ball handling locks are all well and good but where's the grunt? Mako can carry like an eight, unfortunately he seems to scrum like one too. Youngs was a center, Cole is getting bested more than besting these days, Parling may be a lineout code breaker extraordinaire, but he carries all the physical menace of the tooth fairy. We are being beaten up front and picking conservatively behind this as a result.

by Geordie Wed 14 Oct - 12:51

screamingaddabs wrote:

Me - Manager
GeordieFalcon - Forwards Coach
No 7&1/2 - Backs coach
LondonTiger - Defence
Cyril - PR man

.

Awesome

Don't worry boys...ill have that pack smashing everything in sight....

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Oct - 12:51

GeordieFalcon wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:If he stays he needs to stop with the "culture" and "respect" sh$t. Your team has to have a bit nasty and arrogance to win.

Johnson and Dalaglio were both respectful men...but by god they could bend the rules if they needed to, to win! The situation in Ireland with the red carpets. Johnson was called all the names for that and he didn't give a jot.....he simply would not be beaten or back down.

Even many of the 2007 final team had that sheer bloody mindedness - very much like the Wales team this WC...they will fight to the death...and then keep going.

How many of the current set up have that will and desire....Mike Brown is the only one I can think of and possibly Launchbury....

I really do not think you should ever use that as a positive example.

Martin Johnson brought the whole game into disrepute that day and the RFU have done nothing to apologise for it.

Johnson was a complete embarrassment to the rugby world, it was cringe worthy to see it happen.

You would never see Paul O'Connell do that to the Queen.

It wasn't necessarily a positive example...its an example where they could be ruthless and not back down.

We'll agree to disagree about him being an embarrassment.

The game is littered with successful team having that mentality. Englands.....simply don't.

I agree on needing a level of determination and grit but think you used a very poor example. A better one would have been Englands performance in New Zealand in June 03. To beat a world class team when only down
to thirteen men in their back yard was a monumental statement to the rugby world.

by Barney McGrew did it Wed 14 Oct - 12:53

Well IMO selection, although at times poor, has not been SL’s main failing. Centre (and injury/bans) apart, essentially we have eventually selected most of our best players. And these include those that gave the ABs a bit of a spanking (ok only once) and beat Aus and Wales the previous couple of time we played them. The players are what they are, although mediocre form after injuries hasn’t helped with a few of them. But SL hasn’t consistently got the best out of them because his coaching/tactical direction has been confused and because he tries too hard to get the players doing at test level what they don’t seem to do at club level; ie. some sort of combination of the ABs style and a mobile RL/RU hybrid.

I think the players are there – selection needs a tweak, but playing style and tactics style need an overhaul.

And best to ignore mikeyphil.

by Geordie Wed 14 Oct - 12:55

maestegmafia wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:If he stays he needs to stop with the "culture" and "respect" sh$t. Your team has to have a bit nasty and arrogance to win.

Johnson and Dalaglio were both respectful men...but by god they could bend the rules if they needed to, to win! The situation in Ireland with the red carpets. Johnson was called all the names for that and he didn't give a jot.....he simply would not be beaten or back down.

Even many of the 2007 final team had that sheer bloody mindedness - very much like the Wales team this WC...they will fight to the death...and then keep going.

How many of the current set up have that will and desire....Mike Brown is the only one I can think of and possibly Launchbury....

I really do not think you should ever use that as a positive example.

Martin Johnson brought the whole game into disrepute that day and the RFU have done nothing to apologise for it.

Johnson was a complete embarrassment to the rugby world, it was cringe worthy to see it happen.

You would never see Paul O'Connell do that to the Queen.

It wasn't necessarily a positive example...its an example where they could be ruthless and not back down.

We'll agree to disagree about him being an embarrassment.

The game is littered with successful team having that mentality. Englands.....simply don't.

I agree on needing a level of determination and grit but think you used a very poor example. A better one would have been Englands performance in New Zealand in June 03. To beat a world class team when only down
to thirteen men in their back yard was a monumental statement to the rugby world.

Nah that wasn't controversial enough... Wink

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Oct - 12:55

LondonTiger wrote:
BamBam wrote:I think everyone agrees it was unacceptable

Personally, I'm just not a fan of snide comments and high and mightyness from a Welsh fan who takes every opportunity to stick the boot in

Hard to accept being knocked out, but it was against two strong sides.

What I do find unacceptable is as you say the snide assertions, specifically that SL did a good job but the players are not good enough to compete against Top8 sides. the stats show clearly that they can and do compete at least as well as other NH teams - but lost on thos occasion.

They don't win when it counts. Six nations, world cups they lose the vital match.

Geordie is right about the doggedness, despite his example (covered no need to say more on that). There is not the same will in the leadership of this England generation that there was twelve years ago +

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Oct - 12:57

GeordieFalcon wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:If he stays he needs to stop with the "culture" and "respect" sh$t. Your team has to have a bit nasty and arrogance to win.

Johnson and Dalaglio were both respectful men...but by god they could bend the rules if they needed to, to win! The situation in Ireland with the red carpets. Johnson was called all the names for that and he didn't give a jot.....he simply would not be beaten or back down.

Even many of the 2007 final team had that sheer bloody mindedness - very much like the Wales team this WC...they will fight to the death...and then keep going.

How many of the current set up have that will and desire....Mike Brown is the only one I can think of and possibly Launchbury....

I really do not think you should ever use that as a positive example.

Martin Johnson brought the whole game into disrepute that day and the RFU have done nothing to apologise for it.

Johnson was a complete embarrassment to the rugby world, it was cringe worthy to see it happen.

You would never see Paul O'Connell do that to the Queen.

It wasn't necessarily a positive example...its an example where they could be ruthless and not back down.

We'll agree to disagree about him being an embarrassment.

The game is littered with successful team having that mentality. Englands.....simply don't.

I agree on needing a level of determination and grit but think you used a very poor example. A better one would have been Englands performance in New Zealand in June 03. To beat a world class team when only down
to thirteen men in their back yard was a monumental statement to the rugby world.

Nah that wasn't controversial enough...

Ha ha ha

Maybe not in hindsight... It Seriously was at the time

by BamBam Wed 14 Oct - 12:59

maestegmafia wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
BamBam wrote:I think everyone agrees it was unacceptable

Personally, I'm just not a fan of snide comments and high and mightyness from a Welsh fan who takes every opportunity to stick the boot in

Hard to accept being knocked out, but it was against two strong sides.

What I do find unacceptable is as you say the snide assertions, specifically that SL did a good job but the players are not good enough to compete against Top8 sides. the stats show clearly that they can and do compete at least as well as other NH teams - but lost on thos occasion.

They don't win when it counts. Six nations, world cups they lose the vital match.

Geordie is right about the doggedness, despite his example (covered no need to say more on that). There is not the same will in the leadership of this England generation that there was twelve years ago +

Zzzzzz

by mikey_dragon Wed 14 Oct - 13:01

maestegmafia wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Poor wum maes.

Typical of you to attack the poster rather than to consider the opinion and reply with some intellect.

These lot have a knack for that, unfortunately.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 14 Oct - 13:05

We're getting them all today.

Why are the Welsh so interested in English rugby?

by maestegmafia Wed 14 Oct - 13:12

Sgt_Pooly wrote:We're getting them all today.

Why are the Welsh so interested in English rugby?

Actually I was interested more in Geordie's post. I enjoy reading his posts and I find his opinion engaging and interesting.

Despite disagreeing with him, I have a lot of respect for him. And the next time I look down the the list of threads on the international page and see his name I will again click on and see what he wrote.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 14 Oct - 13:15

Good to hear. Maybe this will draw you away from your poor wumming attempts......we can all dream.

by Geordie Wed 14 Oct - 13:26

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