Who should be next England coach

First topic message reminder :

I think most of us are agreed that Stuart Lancaster should go as England coach - but who do you want to see get the job?  I think that Stuart Lancaster has proved that you need a coach who has a proven winning track record at the top level of club or international rugby.

Lets not turn this topic into a debate about which players should be in, or Stuart Lancaster's failings, those are valid issues for other topics.  Just who you think it should be and why.

I don't think any English coach has a record of success in the European Rugby Champions/Heineken Cup, or any track record of coaching abroad.  So I would go for an overseas coach and I think we should break the bank for the best 'available' coach, which for me is Wayne Smith.  Assuming Steve Hansen does not want to step down, would Smith be satisfied as being a number 2 for another 4 years?

Simple and short - Who and Why.

The most succesfull England coach tried to change England to a less forward/kicking dominated approach and play faster more expansive rugby.
So whilt it may be ture that England have a natural style and would be best served blindly sticking to it, it isnt.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Haskell is a major frustration...on his day he is immense and a genuine destructive force on the pitch. He just doesn't do it enough on the international field. He does for Wasps however...

To answer your question...I do believe we have the players. The problem is the direction the coaches are taking the team.

I too would prefer our props to focus more on the principle roles...namely Scrummaging, ruck and mauling. Bringing real bulk and power to the game. They can still contribute to breakdowns turnovers etc...but they shouldn't be shouldered with that task.

That of course leads to a shift in the balance of the rest of the pack.

He does it a lot more than Wood does. I feel desperately sorry for him, two WCs where his form going in has been pretty decent and both times dropped for a guy who is about half the athlete he is and no better a rugby player.

I think the inconsistency argument partly is because when he's good he's very good, and it's hard to maintain that level unless you're absolutely world class. He may not be that, but he has been for a long time our best 6.

I can't agree with that at all. He's pretty gone down in my mind as the guy who ran into a post. Up there with banahan being tackled by the smallest guy on the pitch from 5 yeards.

I must admit, I prefer Haskell to Wood, but probably more as an impact sub than starter.

Wood is a bit of a passenger bar his line out work. He's extremely unphysical these days, we need better.

Ward on Wood:

http://m.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/harlequins-hooker-ward-hits-out-at-saints-star-wood-on-twitter-1-7010655

The Harlequins player said: “Tom Woods unseen work is so good even i don’t see it. Bring in a game changer @jackclifford93 #overrated.”

Could have done with Haskell showing impact vs Wales.....

Wood has been picked to shore up the lineout which has been shaky under Lancaster's watch without Hartley.

At 2nd row in my opinion we don't have anyone outstanding. We have depth sure but I wouldn't say any are "world class".

Lawes gives solidity but is most famous for smashing players smaller than him, normally 10s. Against bigger men he sometimes finds it difficult to impose himself.

Kruis is okay but again doesn't stand out from the crowd. Doesn't excel in any area.

Parling is solid in the lineout (but not outstanding) but doesn't offer much power or ballast.

Attwood when picked for England hasn't shown power.

People say that Launchbury is "world class". I personally still need convincing of that - a player who neither excels at the lineout and is neither a powerful ballast in the engine room.

Surely a 2nd rowers primary job is to be powerful in the engine room and be strong at lineout time?

I wouldn't say any of the current locks fit that bill.

I just think in general there's a real lack of pace and power in the England pack. Perhaps it's conditioning, perhaps it's just the current crop aren't playing in the right way I don't know.

You look at the likes of Australia and NZ and you see well organised and dynamic forwards. In comparison ours seemed leadened footed.

Something like this could work in the 6 nations if these players have good seasons:

1.Mako
2.George/Hartley
3.Cole (if he rediscovers his form)
4.Slater
5.Kitchener/Lawes
6.Itoje/Robshaw
7.Ksevic/Fraser
8.Vunipola

I don't think the scrum is just about the props and I think that's been England's problem - if you pick an underpowered front five then you're going to struggle so picking a more powerful lock and hooker is definitely needed.

When England's scrum was powerful in 2003 they had a large hooker like Steve Thompson.

England need to move away from the Lee Mears and Tom Youngs style hookers.

One of my colleagues made a very good point about playing the Vunipola bros together. They feed off each as they have that psynergy being brothers. Against Fiji one would make inroads then the other would.

Balance is important.

You could possibly move Itoje to lock beshocked then you could fit Wray in.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I must admit, I prefer Haskell to Wood, but probably more as an impact sub than starter.

Wood is a bit of a passenger bar his line out work. He's extremely unphysical these days, we need better.

Ward on Wood:

http://m.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/harlequins-hooker-ward-hits-out-at-saints-star-wood-on-twitter-1-7010655

The Harlequins player said: “Tom Woods unseen work is so good even i don’t see it. Bring in a game changer @jackclifford93 #overrated.”

I followed that exchange. Have to say that Tom Wood was the only one showing any class. Thought Ward came across as a complete and utter bell end

no 7 & 1/2 Wray isn't good enough at the moment. Sadly I don't think Kruis is as good as his fellow Sarries either.

Is my suggestion really that far fetched? George's stock is rising, Mako is still one of the top LHs in England, Itoje (well you know I rate him highly), Billy (I thought was England's best player in the RWC), as for Fraser (that 7 shirt could be up for grabs and if Fraser can show good form and stay fit....)

I should add that I wouldn't have Wigglesworth,Farrell or Barritt in the England side - all 3 would be dropped, only Goode as a back up 15.

beshocked

England have set piece issues and you want to play Mako. Firstly his conditioning is terrible. He's been in the squad since 2012... that's enough to get rid of puppy fat. I know from a primary source that bok props are worked very hard. Tightheads are asked to be around 120kg for a 6ft frame but must maintain a 12% body fat ratio at worst.

If you're telling me Mako has 12% body fat then I'm a monkey's uncle (don't answer that!). Its unprofessional and I've heard him explain it by saying "oh my mum cooks big dinners", fine if you're playing semi-pro rugby... not for a test player.

Its an attitude which stinks, its the same for his brother and what a surprise one of the first people to stick the knife into SL (multiple times already) is billy.

Its not a talent issue. Its lack of respect and a professional attitude. Ever see a kiwi or bok so badly out of shape? Ever seen a bok backrower with fat rolls? Its simply doesn't happen.

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I must admit, I prefer Haskell to Wood, but probably more as an impact sub than starter.

Wood is a bit of a passenger bar his line out work. He's extremely unphysical these days, we need better.

Ward on Wood:

http://m.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/harlequins-hooker-ward-hits-out-at-saints-star-wood-on-twitter-1-7010655

The Harlequins player said: “Tom Woods unseen work is so good even i don’t see it. Bring in a game changer @jackclifford93 #overrated.”

I followed that exchange. Have to say that Tom Wood was the only one showing any class. Thought Ward came across as a complete and utter bell end

Without doubt, certainly has a chip on his shoulder. Prime example of banning players from social media but still funny

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I must admit, I prefer Haskell to Wood, but probably more as an impact sub than starter.

Wood is a bit of a passenger bar his line out work. He's extremely unphysical these days, we need better.

Ward on Wood:

http://m.northamptonchron.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/harlequins-hooker-ward-hits-out-at-saints-star-wood-on-twitter-1-7010655

The Harlequins player said: “Tom Woods unseen work is so good even i don’t see it. Bring in a game changer @jackclifford93 #overrated.”

I followed that exchange. Have to say that Tom Wood was the only one showing any class. Thought Ward came across as a complete and utter bell end

Agree , not sure what has ruffled Wards feathers.

Mako is a technically poor scrummager, I wouldn't have him the squad personally.

Launchbury is an outstanding lock, he's easily our best option. Itoje doesn't lead the line or is proven at lock, he can't be considered there imo.

fa0019 have you ever seen Mako's tackling stats? He might be a big bloke but his workrate is underrated. Whereas a player like Launchbury's is overstated.

As for Billy, I don't know how you can continue to criticise him - England's best forward in the 6 nations and now the RWC. He might be big but his workate is also excellent.

The thing about Billy is he's not just about big carries, in the 6 nations he made a lot of tackles, perhaps not as many as Robshaw but not far off. He also did things like holding up the tackler and winning turnovers.

Sgt Pooly please could you explain why Launchbury is so highly rated? What in your opinion is his unique selling point?

I agree Itoje is not yet proven but the point I have said time and again - if you don't try a player then of course they stay unproven. If you continually use the argument player X is unproven then no new players get picked - this is a problem Lancaster has suffered from.

Ksevic is unproven so Lancaster kept picking Robshaw. George is unproven so Lancaster kept picking T.Youngs, Slade is unproven so Lancaster kept picking Barritt at 13 etc.

Lancaster has picked new players but he's either picked the wrong ones or done it at the wrong time.

To be honest I think the scrum isn't necessarily about one player - Mako was good for Saracens partnered with George and Du Plessis last season.

A 23 is about balance. England have got the balance all wrong under Lancaster and that's a main reason he's got to go.

Launchbury is rated highly because he's a bloody good player. Just watch the lad, he has the complete game.

How many games has Itoje played at lock for Sarries?

fa0019 wrote:beshocked

England have set piece issues and you want to play Mako. Firstly his conditioning is terrible. He's been in the squad since 2012... that's enough to get rid of puppy fat. I know from a primary source that bok props are worked very hard. Tightheads are asked to be around 120kg for a 6ft frame but must maintain a 12% body fat ratio at worst.

If you're telling me Mako has 12% body fat then I'm a monkey's uncle (don't answer that!). Its unprofessional and I've heard him explain it by saying "oh my mum cooks big dinners", fine if you're playing semi-pro rugby... not for a test player.

Its an attitude which stinks, its the same for his brother and what a surprise one of the first people to stick the knife into SL (multiple times already) is billy.

Its not a talent issue. Its lack of respect and a professional attitude. Ever see a kiwi or bok so badly out of shape? Ever seen a bok backrower with fat rolls? Its simply doesn't happen.

Im not the biggest fan of Mako....I think we have better....

However
To have a go about Billy? He played every minute of the 6n I believe and is now very fit. Some people are naturally just...big! Not everyone can be chiselled and ripped. Nothing wrong with his fitness.

Sgt Pooly it's all well and good saying he's a bloody good player but you'll have to be a bit more descriptive than that.

Most of his supporters say he's "world class" but haven't explained how and why.

You say he has the complete game yet he's not a lineout leader, proficient ball carrier, big tackler, not a powerful lock in the engine room.

His so called unique selling point is good workrate but surely you want that from your whole team?

I would say that Billy has just as high a workrate as Launchbury but he does more with his carrying for example and even I wouldn't call Billy a complete player.

As for Itoje, yes he needs more gametime, we'll see how he does. Not many admittedly but he's shifted to lock in big club games. Itoje quite clearly has a lot of proving he needs to do to the doubters and of course he needs to be showing good form again to be in the mix in the 6 nations and fit.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:beshocked

England have set piece issues and you want to play Mako. Firstly his conditioning is terrible. He's been in the squad since 2012... that's enough to get rid of puppy fat. I know from a primary source that bok props are worked very hard. Tightheads are asked to be around 120kg for a 6ft frame but must maintain a 12% body fat ratio at worst.

If you're telling me Mako has 12% body fat then I'm a monkey's uncle (don't answer that!). Its unprofessional and I've heard him explain it by saying "oh my mum cooks big dinners", fine if you're playing semi-pro rugby... not for a test player.

Its an attitude which stinks, its the same for his brother and what a surprise one of the first people to stick the knife into SL (multiple times already) is billy.

Its not a talent issue. Its lack of respect and a professional attitude. Ever see a kiwi or bok so badly out of shape? Ever seen a bok backrower with fat rolls? Its simply doesn't happen.

Im not the biggest fan of Mako....I think we have better....

However
To have a go about Billy? He played every minute of the 6n I believe and is now very fit. Some people are naturally just...big! Not everyone can be chiselled and ripped. Nothing wrong with his fitness.

Noone would beleive it of Thomas Waldrom. He couldnt touch or even see his toes, but he regualalry beat other forwards in fitness tests.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 Wray isn't good enough at the moment. Sadly I don't think Kruis is as good as his fellow Sarries either.

Is my suggestion really that far fetched? George's stock is rising, Mako is still one of the top LHs in England, Itoje (well you know I rate him highly), Billy (I thought was England's best player in the RWC), as for Fraser (that 7 shirt could be up for grabs and if Fraser can show good form and stay fit....)

I should add that I wouldn't have Wigglesworth,Farrell or Barritt in the England side - all 3 would be dropped, only Goode as a back up 15.

I've seen a lot calling for a really strong set piece front 5 if that ends up being reality I think it drops Mako out of the squad. George has a chance to stake his claim and prove that he's the man to be our 2. Billy has his work cut out in the next 12 motnhs against Morgan and the coming Hughes. Like Fraser but when will he be fit enough?

Gooseberry wrote:
Noone would beleive it of Thomas Waldrom. He couldnt touch or even see his toes, but he regualalry beat other forwards in fitness tests.

And when tigers had injury issues played in back to back games against Ospreys at 7, beating Tipuric to th ebreakdown at both games.

beshocked wrote:Sgt Pooly it's all well and good saying he's a bloody good player but you'll have to be a bit more descriptive than that.

Most of his supporters say he's "world class" but haven't explained how and why.

You say he has the complete game yet he's not a lineout leader, proficient ball carrier, big tackler, not a powerful lock in the engine room.

His so called unique selling point is good workrate but surely you want that from your whole team?

I would say that Billy has just as high a workrate as Launchbury but he does more with his carrying for example and even I wouldn't call Billy a complete player.

As for Itoje, yes he needs more gametime, we'll see how he does. Not many admittedly but he's shifted to lock in big club games. Itoje quite clearly has a lot of proving he needs to do to the doubters and of course he needs to be showing good form again to be in the mix in the 6 nations and fit.

I have to pick you up on this again, I like Launchbury alot and even I didn't say in the world class thread he was world class. I don't think you need an outstanding point to be a brilliant player. Look at Itoje, what's his selling point? Good in lineout though seen him have a couple of mares. Good carrier not the best. Not a jackal, Good tackler seen a lot of them around. Good at rucks. Not in Launchburys class in any as yet.

And Billy Vunipola is class.

No 7&1/2 wrote:And Billy Vunipola is class.

He is indeed. He has also improved no end over the last couple of years

I really like Fraser, but these injuries could be too much to overcome, its Tom Rees all over again

Is he fit to start the season?

no 7 & 1/2

Billy has his work cut out? Did you watch the RWC? Morgan was nowhere near as good as Billy. As for Hughes - he's got a lot of proving to do.

I am not the one claiming Itoje is "world class" or a complete player. I do think he's a very talented youngster with huge potential though.

I am challenging the myth that Launchbury is a complete player.

I don't think it's very fair comparing a 20 year old to a 24 year old but if we are going there fair enough.

I think Itoje's just as good as Launchbury as a ball carrier and as a tackler if not better at club level though we need to see more from both. As for lineout - Launchbury's contribution there is minimal so Itoje definitely matches him there. As for rucks - yes Launchbury wins.

I would say Launchbury's main areas where Launchbury have the edge are experience and the breakdown. Of course this is all at club level because Itoje has not yet been given opportunities at international level.

Itoje might not show the same form that he showed at the end of last season, hopefully he can though.

Yes I think he does have to perform at his peak; he'll now have 2 class 8s going for his position.

Who has said Launchbury is world class? Think the nearest person here I've read is fa. I think it's very fair to compare Itoje to anyone in and around England as you're saying he's good enough now. That means he's in direct competition with the Launchbury's of this world and for me he's 2nd in all classes at the moment. Lineout is the only one thats close for me and Itoje has fluffed too many catches in the games I've seen him in.

I'm still confident Itoje will be heavily involved in the 6Ns but from the bench.

To be fair to Morgan he really didnt seem at full power this RWC. At his best he is good competition to Billy and a very good player. Lower work rate but very explosive and probably better hands.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Agree , not sure what has ruffled Wards feathers.

Ward thought Wood was undermining Robshaw by talking about taking the captaincy if offered. I think Wood was just playing a straight bat when asked a direct question.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I can't agree with that at all. He's pretty gone down in my mind as the guy who ran into a post. Up there with banahan being tackled by the smallest guy on the pitch from 5 yeards.

Which misses the line he took and the break before that. I'd rather a player capable of getting that close than a plodder 10 yards back. Wood is better in the lineout, that is it. I don't even think he's a smarter player than Haskell.

I feel for the guy, the 'Hask' stuff stuck and he's always been seen as a show pony ever since. He did have a dip in form where he was rightly excluded, but he's regularly been better than our options and not used. Probably the one forward we have who is also in tip top physical condition

no 7 & 1/2

Billy IMO is one of the most secure players in the England squad when fit because I think he was England's MVP in the 6 nations and RWC.

You have one no 8 who hasn't played well for England in over a year (Morgan) and Hughes who has no international experience. Both have a lot of proving to do.


Geordiefalcon has.

Sgt Pooly has called him a "complete player".

It's a new season - Itoje's form might not be as good as it was at the end of last season. We'll see. At the end of last season, Itoje was showing good enough form at lock and 6 to match most players in those positions if not excel them.

Don't get me wrong, Itoje has a lot of proving to do again but if he can show the form of last season or even improve then I think he'll threaten many of competitors.

As for Launchbury - it's just a measure of balance.

Is a pack of these players balanced?

1.Marler
2.Youngs
3.Cole
4.Launchbury
5.Parling
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

Where's the power? Parling was specifically there for the lineout but even then the lineout ball wasn't generally cleanly taken.

You might claim Launchbury was there for his breakdown abilities, could have done with more of that vs Wales and Australia where our penalty and turnover counts respectively weren't good enough.

Launchbury is the next target eh

beshocked wrote:

Is a pack of these players balanced?

1.Marler
2.Youngs
3.Cole
4.Launchbury
5.Parling
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

No its not balanced at all....

Bambam no player's contribution can be questioned eh?

Still haven't heard a proper explanation of why he's so highly rated. I have heard descriptions like he's a "complete" player but haven't been told exactly what it is he's so good at.

Some stats of his contributions might help - I know stats don't show the full story but some evidence of his proficiency would be appreciated. I have seen evidence of mistakes (some big) he has made but I want to know about his positives. Tell me why I am wrong for not thinking he is world class.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

fa0019 wrote:beshocked

England have set piece issues and you want to play Mako. Firstly his conditioning is terrible. He's been in the squad since 2012... that's enough to get rid of puppy fat. I know from a primary source that bok props are worked very hard. Tightheads are asked to be around 120kg for a 6ft frame but must maintain a 12% body fat ratio at worst.

If you're telling me Mako has 12% body fat then I'm a monkey's uncle (don't answer that!). Its unprofessional and I've heard him explain it by saying "oh my mum cooks big dinners", fine if you're playing semi-pro rugby... not for a test player.

Its an attitude which stinks, its the same for his brother and what a surprise one of the first people to stick the knife into SL (multiple times already) is billy.

Its not a talent issue. Its lack of respect and a professional attitude. Ever see a kiwi or bok so badly out of shape? Ever seen a bok backrower with fat rolls? Its simply doesn't happen.

Im not the biggest fan of Mako....I think we have better....

However
To have a go about Billy? He played every minute of the 6n I believe and is now very fit. Some people are naturally just...big! Not everyone can be chiselled and ripped. Nothing wrong with his fitness.

I question his attitude for a number of things.

Firstly, fitness. He's not in top shape, or at least wasn't prior to this RWC and is still not at a level of Read, Vermeulen, Faletau etc in terms of conditioning. This isn't an age thing. He's even said, oh its my mums fault, she's too good a cook. Quite frankly thats not good enough for pro sport.

Also he's been in the news twice since slamming the setup since England's departure (1 week after only)

He says he was misquoted yet this was to an audience of people who said he blasted the set up. Then a week later he's at it again.

If there was a type of person who would bring the knives out immediately... its the same people who don't put 100% into their own game. Its no surprise. Same with Haskell, its so predictable that those two would be the ones to crack its a joke.

Past coaches wouldn't touch certain individuals for love or money. Luke Watson in SA was a similar type. They kept him out and when he eventually was brought in he within months showed a complete lack of professionalism and it undermined the team. Can players change... yes. Part of it is the coaches fault, allowing players to take too many liberties. However any teams with people like this in them face an uphill struggle and other coaches know through experience they're not worth the risk regardless of talent.

People knock Danny Cipriani for his personality but when did he ever say anything out against his coaches at England? Immediately after the Mike Catt thing came out people were expecting him to launch a character assassination. Never happened. SL drops the wrong type of people.. its a judge of character which blights him.

Interestingly, Itoje captains Sarries at the weekend, with Fraser on the bench

beshocked wrote:Bambam no player's contribution can be questioned eh?

Still haven't heard a proper explanation of why he's so highly rated. I have heard descriptions like he's a "complete" player but haven't been told exactly what it is he's so good at.

Some stats of his contributions might help - I know stats don't show the full story but some evidence of his proficiency would be appreciated. I have seen evidence of mistakes (some big) he has made but I want to know about his positives. Tell me why I am wrong for not thinking he is world class.

I haven't seen anyone say he is world class, and 3 people have said they don't think he is!

Funny that all the questioning goes on players who might compete with Saracens, its getting boring

Beshocked

I was questioning launchbury in the past for a brief time due to his power and weight. But I was just being flipping stupid. He is a top class player.

You say what does he do?

He is very influential at rucks and mauls. Parling/ Robshaw etc was revered for "hitting" every ruck. Woopdi do. Surely its not how many you hit....Its how influential you are at them. Launchbury is VERY influential at them...and decides which one to attack wisely. (A very SH trait that we all laud them for)

His defence is top class...as is his cover tackling out wide. Its as good as Lawes and I would say Crofts as well. But he gets little recognition for that.

He is actually a good lineout jumper. He just isn't used a huge amount. As for being a lineout caller...he's never going to be a lineout leader.

He carries efficiently. He makes ground and offers himself readily. And he is strong in mauls.

And he's still improving.

England need to find a nice balance to work in combo with him. And I firmly believe one of Slater, Kitchener (Ideal with his additional lineout leadership) or Attwood.

I like Slater a lot as a player, but think he is probably competing with Launchbury

4. Launchbury/Slater/Itoje
5. Lawes/Kitchener/Kruis

Thats the core I would be looking at for the locks. I'm unsure whether Itoje is more of the Launchbury type or the lineout leader/athletic type, need to watch a lot more of him this season

fa0019 not sure what your problem with Billy is.

You question Billy's attitude and fitness.

Billy played every game in the 6 nations - 80 minutes. Statistically one of the best players in the competition.

As for the RWC - in my opinion he was England's best player before his injury. Couldn't fault his workrate and effort. I expect he was frustated that his colleagues seemed to wilt under the pressure. It's unprofessional to slag off your team mates yes but I am sure Billy would have been very upset with England going out in the pool stages like all us England fans are.

You say Billy didn't put 100% into his game - what games were you watching?

Thank you Geordiefalcon. That's the first proper explanation I have heard.

Fair enough.

Getting the right balance of the pack will be important.

Who would you partner Launchbury with?

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2

Billy IMO is one of the most secure players in the England squad when fit because I think he was England's MVP in the 6 nations and RWC.

You have one no 8 who hasn't played well for England in over a year (Morgan) and Hughes who has no international experience. Both have a lot of proving to do.


Geordiefalcon has.

Sgt Pooly has called him a "complete player".

It's a new season - Itoje's form might not be as good as it was at the end of last season. We'll see. At the end of last season, Itoje was showing good enough form at lock and 6 to match most players in those positions if not excel them.

Don't get me wrong, Itoje has a lot of proving to do again but if he can show the form of last season or even improve then I think he'll threaten many of competitors.

As for Launchbury - it's just a measure of balance.

Is a pack of these players balanced?

1.Marler
2.Youngs
3.Cole
4.Launchbury
5.Parling
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan

Where's the power? Parling was specifically there for the lineout but even then the lineout ball wasn't generally cleanly taken.

You might claim Launchbury was there for his breakdown abilities, could have done with more of that vs Wales and Australia where our penalty and turnover counts respectively weren't good enough.

Will be interesting to see the developments at 8 because we have 2 class players and adding a 3rd that's all. Bill and Ben are interchangable.

Launchbury is class and Itoje is coming on. Where's he starting this weekend?

beshocked wrote:fa0019 not sure what your problem with Billy is.

You question Billy's attitude and fitness.

Billy played every game in the 6 nations - 80 minutes. Statistically one of the best players in the competition.

As for the RWC - in my opinion he was England's best player before his injury. Couldn't fault his workrate and effort. I expect he was frustated that his colleagues seemed to wilt under the pressure. It's unprofessional to slag off your team mates yes but I am sure Billy would have been very upset with England going out in the pool stages like all us England fans are.

You say Billy didn't put 100% into his game - what games were you watching?

Not saying he didn't play well. His talent is not under question here.

I'm saying his attitude is poor. To himself and his team. He's been outspoken on his team twice in a matter of one week. Surely you acknowledge this things as important to team harmony? When you add this to how he prepares himself physically... its no surprise.

Just like Haskell.

beshocked wrote:Thank you Geordiefalcon. That's the first proper explanation I have heard.

Fair enough.

Getting the right balance of the pack will be important.

Who would you partner Launchbury with?

Well that's the question....I think I would wait and see how people are performing. Ideally someone with a bit of physicality and bulk about them but who is also strong at the lineout. That would point to the two prime candidates being Kitchener and Attwood.

Attwood has had a chance and was disappointing in certain aspects. I felt he never really brought that physicality we all hoped he would. However I would be prepared to give him one last chance in a better balanced pack. As I do believe the scrum etc were much stronger with him in them. And his defence was very good.

Kitchener was the lineout leader and was very good last season for Tigers. He is also a huge unit and has some great skills. If he starts the season in the same vain....then I think he has to be looked at.

I think season is going to be fascinating as theres lots to play for.

You can and I do criticise Haskell for a number of things but physically he's in amazing shape for a 6.

If Haskell played like he did against wales (6n) in every game...we wouldn't even be discussing the 6 spot.

The problem is he doesn't. And whilst some will say but you cant play at that level every game, I say why not?? The AB's do.

You want to be the top of the tree...you have to be consistent and play to your highest level every game.

no 7 & 1/2 Billy and Morgan are not interchangeable because Morgan had a poor RWC IMO.

An in form Morgan is an asset to England but he didn't seem to be fully fit and firing.

Itoje will be lock and is captain this weekend.

fa0019 team harmony doesn't matter at the moment. They are out. Plus Billy is injured for 3 months I believe. If he brings that attitude when he's fully fit again then sure criticise him but I understand he's frustated.

Harmony did diddley squat for England. In 2007 the players mutinied against the coaches and affectly dragged into to a RWC when they had no right to.

If Billy asks some relevant questions and helps improve England then good on him.

It's about identifying the weaknesses,problems then sorting them out.

Geordiefalcon You don't think the pack strength was helped by having Hartley at hooker?

Oh I very much do think Hartley helped the pack. And it should be him or George starting with the other on the bench.

I notice Mario Itoje starts at 4 for Saracens this weekend .....and is the Captain...

Ok beshocked I'd disagree I think both are very good players, Morgan has generally been a starter when both are fit but it's a point of interest over the next 12 months for me.

Will also be interesting when you get your full set of players back whether Itoje falls back to 6 or not. For my money he's a better lock now just and will be a world class lock in the near future.

Can't judge Ben on this RWC, he's only just come back from helluva injury and shouldn't have been included. That's an SL bad. This was a bit of a theme running through the team - too many players back from injury but not back in form. Cole, Lawes, Launchbury, Barritt, Morgan... Might have contributed to a below par performance by the team as a whole.

Yes, its a shame some players reasonably spoke their mind and stuck up for themselves after such a debacle...if only the culture had been right, eh Stuart

no 7 & 1/2 I think Morgan was the better no 8 12 months ago but Morgan hasn't shown his previous England form and I feel that Billy was England's MVP in the 6 nations and RWC.

As for Itoje will be interesting. I have been hyping him up a lot. I hope he delivers.