Who should be next England coach

by nlpnlp Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

I think most of us are agreed that Stuart Lancaster should go as England coach - but who do you want to see get the job? I think that Stuart Lancaster has proved that you need a coach who has a proven winning track record at the top level of club or international rugby.

Lets not turn this topic into a debate about which players should be in, or Stuart Lancaster's failings, those are valid issues for other topics. Just who you think it should be and why.

I don't think any English coach has a record of success in the European Rugby Champions/Heineken Cup, or any track record of coaching abroad. So I would go for an overseas coach and I think we should break the bank for the best 'available' coach, which for me is Wayne Smith. Assuming Steve Hansen does not want to step down, would Smith be satisfied as being a number 2 for another 4 years?

Simple and short - Who and Why.

by yappysnap Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:10 pm

Any one even know when Tuilagi is meant to be back? Seems like for ever since he's even played.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:13 am

It's a bit depressing to hear the RFU openly declare they want the next coach to have proven international experience. Since it's highly unlikely that any former England coach is in the frame, this pretty much means we going to rely on the employment choices of our opponents to validate our own decision-making.

Unless The RFU intends that to include proven international club competition experience, then we are also likely limiting ourselves to coaches who are no longer wanted by their own countries.

I don't claim to have the answers here but I'm very worried that we aren't even asking the right questions.

We can't just look at the bare facts of international experience. If that was all that mattered, then Clive Woodward has more than just about anybody. We need to look at the strengths and weaknesses of each candidate as coaches and men.

The best international coaches today are probably Hansen, Wayne Smith, Cotter, Cheika, and perhaps Schmidt. In that case, why are we talking about White and Jones? Both men strike me as a very poor fit for the England set-up.

I'd also like to know under what circumstances we would conclude that any new appointment had failed, and a different coach required. Lancaster's win-loss record was decent enough that he never faced the axe, but we now think he was the wrong man. If the record alone isn't enough to make a call, then what other measures will we look at?

It's not just hiring decisions which you have to get right, you also need an exit strategy in case things don't work out.

by majesticimperialman Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:06 am

Just seen on the bbc web site Jake White wants the England head coach job.

Will he be the answer? Don't know too be honest, but at least he is a world cup winning coach.

by blackcanelion Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:46 am

Rugby Fan wrote:It's a bit depressing to hear the RFU openly declare they want the next coach to have proven international experience. Since it's highly unlikely that any former England coach is in the frame, this pretty much means we going to rely on the employment choices of our opponents to validate our own decision-making.

Unless The RFU intends that to include proven international club competition experience, then we are also likely limiting ourselves to coaches who are no longer wanted by their own countries.

I don't claim to have the answers here but I'm very worried that we aren't even asking the right questions.

We can't just look at the bare facts of international experience. If that was all that mattered, then Clive Woodward has more than just about anybody. We need to look at the strengths and weaknesses of each candidate as coaches and men.

The best international coaches today are probably Hansen, Wayne Smith, Cotter, Cheika, and perhaps Schmidt. In that case, why are we talking about White and Jones? Both men strike me as a very poor fit for the England set-up.

I'd also like to know under what circumstances we would conclude that any new appointment had failed, and a different coach required. Lancaster's win-loss record was decent enough that he never faced the axe, but we now think he was the wrong man. If the record alone isn't enough to make a call, then what other measures will we look at?

It's not just hiring decisions which you have to get right, you also need an exit strategy in case things don't work out.

I'm not sure why people talk about the likes of Hansen, W. Smith or Henry. The ex Ab's coaches have all been on record as they wouldn't coach England. I'm guessing the same goes for anyone in the NZ coaching team, I also suspect that the Kiwi coaches in Wales, Ireland and Scotland wouldn't cut and run. That pretty much leaves non international Kiwis. I'm pretty sure Cheika wont go. Maybe they're looking at White, Jones or Woodward.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:42 am

blackcanelion wrote:... The ex AB's coaches have all been on record as they wouldn't coach England. I'm guessing the same goes for anyone in the NZ coaching team...

Agreed. I don't believe this idea that the resources of the RFU enable them to have their pick of the world's coaches. Yes, we can buy someone out of a contract, but they have to be willing to take the job first. I think there are a number of coaches who wouldn't want the post now for reasons of loyalty, family, professional development etc.

If that's the case, then we end up trying instead to settle for the best available, which means, as it did four years ago, that our options are limited by our own timing.

Scotland waited out Vern Cotter's contract with Clermont to get their man. Japan played a very long game with Eddie Jones. Where on earth is the RFU planning?

by Taylorman Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:26 am

king_carlos wrote:Jake White - Has been keen on the job for a while but is he the type the RFU will like and does he employ a game plan conducive with our current players?

Eddie Jones - I doubt he would stay long term personally.

Mallinder - If we are getting rid of Bomber due to a lack of International experience then Mallinder would be an ironic replacement. There are also question marks over whether he can employ game plans other than the power game.

Dave Rennie - He would be my first choice as he would have a good shout of getting Smith on board. I can't see him leaving Chiefs however. He is widely reported as a patriotic and loyal man who will have an eye on joining the NZ staff when possible. The Chiefs have also seen all the back room staff below him and a few senior players leave since last season. He would be unlikely to want to add to that turn around.

Wayne Smith - One of the best minds in rugby who would be a credit to any coaching set-up. Sadly he seems set on taking a year out of rugby after the RWC.

Other names mentioned include:

Rassie Erasmus - He has an impressive record of turning sides around but is likely next in line for the SA job if Meyer goes.

Mallet - I would rather not take on a head coach who has been 'retired' from rugby since 2011.

Rob Baxter - Massively respected by most for his work at Exeter. However he lacks International coaching experience just the same as Bomber and Mallinder. Would make an excellent forwards coach IMO.

Shaun Edwards - An excellent defense coach but not the greatest record as head coach - or much experience in the role. He would be an excellent acquisition as defence coach if we want International experience in the back room staff. It would require him wanting a fresh challenge however.

A Rennie, Jamie Joseph Alliance would be fantastic I would think, up with the very latest in te game. Don't see why they need to be already international coaches. Schmidt, Cheika, Cotter etc all came straight from club success.

by doctor_grey Thu Nov 12, 2015 6:28 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Where on earth is the RFU planning?

They lost the plan. The guy who cleans the floors threw the plan away and they can't find another copy.

by HammerofThunor Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:08 am

It's going to be White isn't? censored

by yappysnap Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:09 am

I thought there'd scribbled it on the floor with crayons during their break while the teachers weren't looking?

by yappysnap Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:11 am

HammerofThunor wrote:It's going to be White isn't?

I think 90% yes

Don't know if that's a good thing, we'd have to see what coaches he selected too. But there might be a serious case of out of the frying pan...

by cb Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:22 am

If you want an English coach I would suggest Dean Ryan: -

Played international rugby.
If I remember, captained a league winning side.
Reasonablecoaching experience with Gloucester and now with Worcester.
Some (limited) international coaching experience with Scotland.
Media experience with Sky.
But above all seems an analytical and thoughtful mind.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:23 am

It's going to be pretty interesting. The noises coming out suggest to me that they're going for exactly who they want no matter what and are confident they can get them. To me its starting to sound like Wayne Smith. One things I know for certain whoever we get there will be a few who think the choice is wrong and don't give the new guy time. They'll have a fantastic group of players but if they don't happen to get a grand slam first up (lets hope they do!) can we not jump down their throat straight away please.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:36 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:... if they don't happen to get a grand slam first up (lets hope they do!) can we not jump down their throat straight away please...

Fair enough, but that prompts the question of when you think it would be all right to start saying we got the wrong man. What would make you decide we had taken a wrong turn?

by Sgt_Pooly Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:42 am

Dean Ryan isn't up to the task imo. It has to be White/Smith

by Geordie Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:07 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Dean Ryan isn't up to the task imo. It has to be White/Smith

We may get White, but I just have a suspicion Smith wont be interested. Then where do you go?

Alex Kings name keeps getting bounded about as a backs coach? Any others?

Im coming across to the Shaun Edwards idea as defence coach. He would add some fire in there aswell....

by **George Carlin** Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:09 am

Here's what that undiplomatic, salty old sea-dog Wynne Gray has to say in the NZ Herald.

Remember, don't shoot the messenger:

England's debacle: Can't play, can't coach, can't run it
11:00 AM Thursday Nov 12, 2015

England have made a rocky start in their quest for a new rugby coach.

Chief executive Ian Ritchie set the tone when he said money was no object in their recruitment drive for someone to succeed Stuart Lancaster after the side's poor World Cup.

That fattest wallet approach has failed England for the last decade with their decision to sign Lancaster as coach to 2020, shown up for what it was after he resigned/quit/was pushed.

No wonder England can't play the game, they can't run it either.

They have not covered themselves in Hope and Glory at administration level with Ritchie succeeding John Steele who was ousted in 2011 while Debbie Jevans who was appointed to deliver the Rugby World Cup, resigned six months before kickoff.

Rob Andrew has been director of elite rugby since 2006 then operations director - including a brief stand-in as national coach - which he described as being like managing director of the professional game.

He conducted the inquest in England's 2011 RWC failure and several weeks before the start of this year's event, voiced concerns that England's lack of experience would hurt them and he expected them to be at their peak in two years.

Since Clive Woodward signed off in 2004, England have picked Andy Robinson, Brian Ashton, Andrew Martin Johnson and Lancaster as coaches with a winning ratio of 53.8 per cent.

It is a group with a combined record of winning 70 of the 130 tests they oversaw with 2 draws and 58 losses.

Now England, according to Ritchie, want a coach with international experience as the names of Eddie Jones, Jake White, Woodward, Michael Cheika, Wayne Smith, Warren Gatland, Joe Schmidt, Nick Mallett and Uncle Whodhaveaclu are thrown into public arena.

The next coach will have an impact but for that to be sustained, England have to have leadership from the top down with systems and competitions which allow the game to develop at the elite level and through the grades.

Lancaster made some strange decisions on the doorstep of the World Cup but he also operated with a tourniquet around his plans.

England have the manpower to do some serious international damage but will not turn that raw material into consistent test results until they get clear directions from their administrators and sort out their congested competitions to give each layer of the game, time to deliver.

- NZ Herald

by jimbopip Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:15 am

You know, England are crying out for a Director of Rugby type wallah. Scott Johnson could be procured for a reasonable fee.
Just saying. Whistle

by Geordie Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:34 am

I don't normally bother my A$$ reading the pathetic NZ reporters comments...but that one is actually on the nail.

Fans should be worried...imagine what we can do with a good coaching team in place!

by Welshmushroom Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:46 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's going to be pretty interesting. The noises coming out suggest to me that they're going for exactly who they want no matter what and are confident they can get them. To me its starting to sound like Wayne Smith. One things I know for certain whoever we get there will be a few who think the choice is wrong and don't give the new guy time. They'll have a fantastic group of players but if they don't happen to get a grand slam first up (lets hope they do!) can we not jump down their throat straight away please.

Noises from New Zealand suggest both Wayne Smith and Graham Henry have ruled themselves out for this.

To be honest I cant see anyone with real ambition to coach the All Blacks take this job. That on the sheer principle that Gatland wants to return to New Zealand (to have a crack at it) rules him out as well.

Eddie Jones is under contract in South Africa. Will they agree a release having just signed him? Not likely.

Cant see any truth to Joe Schmidt applying for it. He would be mental to leave the work he's done with Ireland.

Cotter might be a realistic shot. Again under contract with Scotland so they would probably be reluctant to release him even and again he may actually fancy his chances with Scotland at the moment given their recent form.

In truth who really is left:-

Jake White - Already coached South Africa so will probably never get to coach them again. Since he left them he's had very brief stints with Super Rugby, Tonga and even less experience in the Top 14. Real question has he done enough since his time with the Springboks and can he actually develop or has the game moved on from his style.

Robbie Deans - Couldn't cut it with Australia. Another coach not done anything of note since leaving the ARU and a perfect example of a coach who blew his opportunity of coaching the All Black by taking on the Australia chance. Before that he was the most decorated coach in S15 history. Probably better choice in terms of calibre but Deans plays a style of rugby not traditionally suited to the English game.

Cant think of any other top end coaches who might be available. For me I'd be tempted to give Pat Lam a go. Probably to inexperienced for the RFU's liking but given most top end coaches will rule themselves out of the running and given the RFU's treatment of Lancaster I don't see any English Coach getting the job.

by Barney McGrew did it Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:01 am

Can't see any coach not accepting the job tbh (probably not coaches already coaching the top SH sides). What's not to love for an ambitious coach - if they can crack the England side by 2019 they could walk into any job thereafter. Plus the dosh, never underestimate the dosh - everyone has his price: this might come as a shock to some here but RU isn't full of holy sorts not willing to sully themselves with the filthy lucre. England haven't suddenly become a bad side, just a muddled one - the potential is huge. I can see someone coming in and making a big reputation to set themselves up nicely.

by Geordie Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:09 am

Eddie Jones is under contract in South Africa. Will they agree a release having just signed him? Not likely.

If the moneys right of course they will release him.

The question is...would he be worth the money.

by **LondonTiger** Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:14 am

Looking more and more likely that it will be Jake White

by Welshmushroom Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:23 am

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Can't see any coach not accepting the job tbh (probably not coaches already coaching the top SH sides). What's not to love for an ambitious coach - if they can crack the England side by 2019 they could walk into any job thereafter. Plus the dosh, never underestimate the dosh - everyone has his price: this might come as a shock to some here but RU isn't full of holy sorts not willing to sully themselves with the filthy lucre. England haven't suddenly become a bad side, just a muddled one - the potential is huge. I can see someone coming in and making a big reputation to set themselves up nicely.

For starters some are already ruling themselves out even to apply for the post. Some of the high calibre/experienced coaches mentioned are already ruling themselves out. I agree that if (and its a big if) a coach can turn it around by 2019 (provided they even give him that long), he may get any job he wants. By contrast however fail and you probably can scratch any ambition of coaching a SH national side off your bucket list.

Sure money will be a lure enough for most to say yes. But will this be the type of coaches they actually need to turn things around? Time will tell but I suspect England may end up in another Robinson/Ashton/Andrew/Johnson cycle.

Bottom line England's problems run far deeper than just selecting a head coach. To be honest the entire management at the RFU tree needs changing not to be mention fundamental reform with Premiership Rugby, assuming the ambition would be to become a world force again.

by Welshmushroom Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:25 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Eddie Jones is under contract in South Africa. Will they agree a release having just signed him? Not likely.

If the moneys right of course they will release him.

The question is...would he be worth the money.

I'm not ruling him out. He definitely more gettable than say Gatland, Smith or some of the others on my list.

by Hood83 Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:28 am

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Can't see any coach not accepting the job tbh (probably not coaches already coaching the top SH sides). What's not to love for an ambitious coach - if they can crack the England side by 2019 they could walk into any job thereafter. Plus the dosh, never underestimate the dosh - everyone has his price: this might come as a shock to some here but RU isn't full of holy sorts not willing to sully themselves with the filthy lucre. England haven't suddenly become a bad side, just a muddled one - the potential is huge. I can see someone coming in and making a big reputation to set themselves up nicely.

I don't think they do, and actually I'm quite enjoying that the RFU are going to shortly find this out. If you want the best you need a plan to get them beyond 'here's lots of money' and that plan needs to be at least medium term in its thinking.

by Geordie Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:55 am

I do have mixed views on Jake White...but his rigidity might be what we need at the moment...mixed with a good creative backs coach. It might work nicely.

by **George Carlin** Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:07 pm

White does love the limelight, but don't forget that Montpellier have a sh!t-ton of their own money and may be inclined to throw even more of it at him to stay.

Besides, I was in Montpellier last summer and the women all look like Vogue models.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:09 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:... if they don't happen to get a grand slam first up (lets hope they do!) can we not jump down their throat straight away please...
Fair enough, but that prompts the question of when you think it would be all right to start saying we got the wrong man. What would make you decide we had taken a wrong turn?

Years not months.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:15 pm

Not sure that England need much to turn it around Mushroom. Lancaster was on the right tracks we just need someone to continue it. Pretty much sounds as we'll get who the RFU wants.

by king_carlos Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:11 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Dean Ryan isn't up to the task imo. It has to be White/Smith

We may get White, but I just have a suspicion Smith wont be interested. Then where do you go?

Alex Kings name keeps getting bounded about as a backs coach? Any others?

Im coming across to the Shaun Edwards idea as defence coach. He would add some fire in there aswell....

Smith seems pretty steadfast on his plans to take a year out for 2016. He may be available after that, and possibly part time during, if the blazers are willing to show some foresight.

Alex King has good reputation so would have a good chance.

Jake White is a pretty strong willed and set in his ways type as well so may want to bring someone with him if he is appointed.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:39 pm

Eddie Jones has ruled himself out.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest-news/24427/eddie-jones-rules-out-england-role/

I think you can take some of these statements with a pinch of salt, since it's usually a good bargaining tactic to say you aren't interested. However, as Hood points out, some coaches probably don't want the role.

by GunsGerms Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:51 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:There is one name no one has mentioned, he has vast experience of international rugby as a player, showed he understands how to manage a team as a DoR, plays exactly the sort of rugby England are trying to play.

Unfortunately he has blood on his hands, or more precisely in someone's mouth.

Would the RFU forget about the past and talk to Deano. They could do a lot worse and one thing is certain, he would control the team and he would not take any bullsh1t from the likes of Farrell Snr.

Sadly for England Deano's career took too big a dive after bloodgate. A three year ban is a long time out of the game.

In any case Ian Richie has said that whoever it is will have to have international coaching experience.

by englandglory4ever Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:13 pm

Don't raise your hopes too much boys. Whoever gets the job will have his work cut out. That England performance at the RWC was dire and way below the top level. There is no silver bullet. The guys we had just weren't world class and are unlikely to be anytime soon so get real or you are heading for a big fall.

by Sgt_Pooly Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:25 pm

Burgess for England coach!!

by kingelderfield Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:02 pm

All this money talk, everyone has their price etc. is all well good to a point, though a limiting point if you think it through.

To my mind number one is there is NO NEED TO RUSH so take as long as it takes to understand what it is that we're actually looking for, what we actually need.

If we opt for a sensible considered approach then I'm sure that the right candidate can and will be found.

We do need an experienced character to take the lead and if we are clever then we can build in some sort of developmental progression whereby your untried inexperienced preferred options can take advantage of others hard learnt experience.

For example we take either White, Jones or Smith or another and buddy them with Baxter or Mallinder or another with other strong national specialist coaches taking the minor though not unimportant positions.

In time Jones for example moves on and Baxter for example takes full control.

The coaching is of course critical and so we must take our time to get it right for both now and the future.

I have felt very black for a long time about our obvious failings but I genuinely see this as a massive opportunity to be the catalyst for change right across our wonderful game.

And just for you 7 & 1/2 if 'whoever' losses just one game then as far as I'm concerned their out!

by No 7&1/2 Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:53 pm

They're out eh? Nice to see you almost be positive and I assume you're kidding.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:03 pm

Why no only an Englishman will do this time king? Mallinder but not Dean Richards?

by Sgt_Pooly Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:09 pm

White is interested....

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/jake-white-would-happily-england-6820602

by Cumbrian Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:43 pm

Watching his Montpellier team tonight, I really hope it isn't a portent of things to come if he should become England coach. Look really big and stodgy to me, I don't want to go back to those days. Big and dynamic is the order of the day!

by Sgt_Pooly Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:45 pm

"Big & stodgy"

Sounds like the missus.

by Cumbrian Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:48 pm

I feel a little sick... Laugh

by Sgt_Pooly Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:57 pm

Welcome to my world Cumb Wink

by DaveM Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:55 pm

I don't want White. Smith is not a contender. I'm not sure what we are going to do. I'd rather pick a talented club coach than an uninspiring choice with 'international experience'.

Of the English coaches, given Baxter isn't ready, I think Dean Ryan may actually be the best option. I suspect he'd have to have a good couple of season with Worcester to be taken seriously.

I'd say we are in a bit of a hole here. Good chance we'll end up overpaying for mediocrity.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:59 pm

kingelderfield wrote:...For example we take either White, Jones or Smith or another and buddy them with Baxter or Mallinder or another with other strong national specialist coaches taking the minor though not unimportant positions.

In time Jones for example moves on and Baxter for example takes full control...

How often do you see that work out? Hansen aside, there are hardly any cases of an assistant coach successfully stepping up to the top job. Conversely, there are plenty of cases of assistants shouldering the blame for any on-field failures, and subsequently being lost to the national set-up.

You also have to consider what record White, Jones and Smith have of mentoring coaching talent. I don't think it looks particularly good.

I think the AK-47 idea is worth developng, though.

by kingelderfield Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:10 pm

by kingelderfield Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:14 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why no only an Englishman will do this time king? Mallinder but not Dean Richards?

Don't tease....though I'm sure I wasn't the only one impressed with the Jones Bothwick combo

by yappysnap Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:30 pm

Not a good night for Jake White and saffa-ball.

I hope the RFU were watching that game to see two things. How a good coach adapts heir gameplan to combat the opposition in game and the change of weather. And then how White coaches.

Also interesting his comments that he'd take the job if he didn't have to 'go through the process' (interview? Wtf? He wants it based on what then?).

by No 7&1/2 Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:38 pm

kingelderfield wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Why no only an Englishman will do this time king? Mallinder but not Dean Richards?

Don't tease....though I'm sure I wasn't the only one impressed with the Jones Bothwick combo

Just interested by the change of heart in those 2 aspects.

by emack2 Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:07 am

The problem is just saying money`s no object isn`t going to attract people on
settled contracts.
ONLY if the candidate has carte blanche,with no interference from the Club set
up or RFU will things change.
As an example RFU policy is no overseas players,SO why blame SL for not picking
them?
Jake White,with his own team could be the answer,BUT it won`t include coaches
contracted already.Wayne Smith,Hansen,Cheika,Gatland,Ledasma,Eddie Jones etc.

by Gwlad Fri Nov 13, 2015 3:13 am

Do you think that the next coach of England's international side should have coached a top flight rugby team before? Not sure Lancaster had and Jonno for sure didn't. Seems to be a little bit stupid really but obviously the RFU knows best.

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